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Are Rich People Less Moral?

sciencehabit writes "New research suggests that the upper classes are more likely to behave dishonorably than those lower on the economic spectrum. The rich are more likely to cheat, steal, and even disobey traffic laws than those with less money and power (abstract). Curiously, in one experiment, Prius drivers also behaved badly, regardless of their wealth."

37 of 1,040 comments (clear)

  1. Yes by Ranger · · Score: 5, Funny

    But only because they don't interact with peasants.

    --
    "You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
    1. Re:Yes by Darinbob · · Score: 5, Informative

      Maybe it depends on context too. Ie, in the US if you're really rich a traffic ticket means nothing to you. There's no punitive value to it. So if you're rich and slightly immoral you don't worry about tickets (especially petty stuff like parking tickets), but if you're poor and slightly immoral you still don't want that ticket. However there are countries where traffic ticket fines are determined by your ability to pay. If you're rich you may get a very huge fine big enough to make you sit up and take notice and try not to repeat that mistake.

      In other words, even if everyone has the same level of ethics and morality, it will appear that the rich are less moral just because they're less affected by the penalties.

      Now with things with no financial benefit or penalty it may be more interesting. Ie, cheating at solitaire, cheating at a board game with your friends, fudging your D&D character sheet, etc. Are the rich more likely to do that type of cheating? (especially those who are wealthy but not so wealthy that they just buy new friends)

    2. Re:Yes by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Funny

      Poor people commit crimes, rich people commit laws.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I take it you are not a capitalist, then.

      In a capitalist economy, the banks would have failed, the mortgages would be refinanced, and we'd all be fine - except the bankers who made bad loans. That's how it's supposed to work, they failed to use their capital well, they lose.

      In our Bush/Reagan economy, the banks were bailed out with tax dollars, and stopped issuing routine loans, the homeowners lost their jobs, so they couldn't pay the mortgages, so the banks foreclosed.

    4. Re:Yes by plover · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Then you'll love this one. Watch as he helps rob an entire country's treasury.

      The sum of all the theft obtained by all the "stupid criminal shows" and "youtube videos" of car thieves, ATM snatchers, bank robbers, and other lowlifes that I've ever seen in my life comes nowhere close to the amount stolen by AIG and Goldman Sachs. It probably doesn't add up to one decimal point of a percent of the $150,000,000,000.00 they stole. It probably doesn't add up to one decimal point of a percent of the $450,000,000.00 in bonuses they stole.

      Put another way, all shoplifting in America adds up to less than $19 billion a year. They stole more in one fraud than every thief in America will shoplift in the next 9 years.

      And none of the thieves in this giant swindle weren't already millionaires. They just wanted to steal more money. Money that comes from the retirement plans and investments of millions of ordinary people.

      Are there more dishonest people per capita at certain income levels? Is it just that the magnitude of their crimes is so much higher because of their station in life? Or is it the size of the immorality of stealing all the net worth of millions of people, and not just their lunch money or their car, and not one personalized theft at a time?

      --
      John
    5. Re:Yes by hondo77 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Neither of those guys were on the island.

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    6. Re:Yes by EdIII · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What does morality have to do with driving and traffic tickets?

      Most of the time it has nothing to do with a desire to cheat, steal, or harm another person. It could just be ignorance and bad driving habits. You could be a great driver and habitually speed 5-10 mph above the limit. That is not, in of itself, a sign of sociopathic behavior. Cutting people off and trying to run them off the road *is*.

      Parking tickets are a better indicator. I personally know of some people that are not anything close to rich, but have a ton of parking tickets. They have TV shows about the boot being put on people that act that way. If anything, that would be independent of wealth. We all have experienced those assholes who cannot part for shit. You know the type. Those that literally park with no regard to anyone else, if they are even lined up the spot correctly, or blocking somebody else.

      Making a ticket proportional to wealth is just discrimination. I hate it when people just want to penalize the rich for "being" rich. It's stupid and disingenuous to the debate over traffic safety.

      You really want change? Eliminate the financial penalty entirely. Mandate that every ticket is a minimum 10 hours of community service picking up trash, visiting senior citizens, meals on wheels, whatever. If the minimum was an entire days worth of work on the weekend that benefited the community traffic violations would plummet. We can't do that because we built an entire financial infrastructure out of people breaking laws and being fined . All that encouraged was greater fines, gaming of the system (fucking with orange lights to increase running reds), and new laws to increase revenue.

      My grandfather was a traffic cop who barely wrote any tickets. Towards the end of his career he was catching hell because he was not meeting his quota. He would actually give warnings and talk to people to explain why it was dangerous. Can't have that.

      As for the study, I think it is incredibly stupid to say, "the rich" are more immoral. While it is true that the rich are less affected by most penalties, a more accurate statement would be that our current environment financially rewards those who act like douchnozzles to the rest of us. Large scale sociopathic behavior has so many legal loop holes that it is readily apparent that the whole game is rigged.

      Those that act with honor, give back to their communities, are penalized and have to work that much harder in business to compete. It takes sacrifice, financial sacrifice, to operate a company that refuses to outsource, screw employees over, and actually work to the benefit of society instead of just giving lip service.

      There are plenty of rich people that are complete sociopaths, but I also know quite a few that are genuinely nice people that care. There is nothing about the state of being wealthy that induces immoral behavior. Immoral behavior exists independently. It's the regulations and tax laws that allow immoral people to attain wealth easier.

    7. Re:Yes by EdIII · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Subtle my ass.

      They stole nearly a trillion dollars right in front of our faces. I am talking about a subset of people that have the state of being rich. Saying that all wealthy people are evil just plays right into their hands by engaging in class warfare.

    8. Re:Yes by bondsbw · · Score: 5, Interesting

      One way to define immorality is the disregard of others out of selfishness. "The rules don't apply to me" is a very selfish way of life.

      In theory at least, traffic laws exist to reduce conflicts between people. Red light laws and stop sign laws exist to reduce accidents; the same applies for speed laws, at least in original intent.

      I agree that there is perversion of the law, that some laws are set and enforced beyond a reasonable level for the sole purpose of funding government. I'm not in argument there. But when laws are set and enforced at a reasonable level, lawbreakers are risking the livelihoods of other people for their own goals.

      Getting to the movie theater faster by risking the lives of other people is definitely immoral. If that type of behavior is correlated with wealth, then wealth is correlated with at least some types of immoral behavior.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    9. Re:Yes by StikyPad · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Are there more dishonest people per capita at certain income levels? Is it just that the magnitude of their crimes is so much higher because of their station in life? Or is it the size of the immorality of stealing all the net worth of millions of people, and not just their lunch money or their car, and not one personalized theft at a time?

      I would say that dishonest people are simply more likely to get ahead... After all, everyone would be honest if dishonesty didn't convey some sort of advantage. So almost by definition, people who are good at lying, cheating, and stealing without getting caught are likely to be successful. It's even less surprising, then, that we find so many psychopaths in positions of power, since they're exceptionally convincing liars.

    10. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Many people are not quite smart enough to understand the 30% rule for mortgage-to-income ratio. They also are not smart enough to understand the interest-only or ARM loan issues. They rely upon a lender or broker to help them understand.

      Normally, lenders have the borrowers interests in mind when making a loan because the lender will hold the loan for many years. However, with Mortgage Backed Securities (bundled home loans), a lender became a reseller of loans instead of a holder of loans. This meant that they no longer had a long term interest in how the borrower fared and instead only had a short term interest in issuing a mortgage... thus many lenders turned to predatory and illegal practices to obtain more borrowers. Many lenders knowingly approved loans that were traditionally deemed very risky, some falsified income verification paperwork, and still overs actively lied to clients and told them that the housing market never goes down and a home is the best investment you can make.

      I'd place the blame at 75% lenders and 25% borrowers. And I don't feel sorry for any lender... they got bailed out. Borrowers, however, got the shaft.

    11. Re:Yes by AK+Marc · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Rich don't pay taxes. The "family trust" owns the house, and makes its money from capital gains (taxed at a much lower rate than salary), and so, only what you spend on personal items that can't be deducted are "income" and someone like Paris Hilton has no undeductable expenses (as partying is "marketing" and such, so even her cocaine should be tax deductable). Paris Hilton, set up properly, should pay less than 5% tax on all her earnings. The rich don't pay tax. Just the top 75% to top 1%. The top 1% pays much less than you or I do.

    12. Re:Yes by AK+Marc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      At best, you can lay 50% of the blame for the housing crash on the lenders and brokers

      I lay 100% of the blame on the lenders and brokers. Why? Because the crash was caused when default rates were still *below* historical norms. It wasn't until the recession they caused caught up with the economy where the foreclosure rates were "interesting". The bankers set up the system to magnify gains and losses, and lied about the risk. The brokers and lenders lied about the risk as well (a D---- borrower who paid 3 months in a row was then reclassified as an "A"). The derivatives that crashed the market and then the economy that made it so people couldn't make their payments, regardless of underwaternesss, were invented by bankers and the crash was caused by the bankers, lenders and brokers. Yes, the homeowners were sometimes "in on it" trying to game the system for their benefit. But everyone else was as well, so why should they get blame for doing what they were told was right?

    13. Re:Yes by mindstormpt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Making a ticket proportional to wealth is just discrimination. I hate it when people just want to penalize the rich for "being" rich. It's stupid and disingenuous to the debate over traffic safety.

      It's not. The GP explained it quite clearly: the value of a fine is meant to dissuade you from performing the action leading up to that fine. If the fine is irrelevant when compared to your income, it doesn't serve its purpose. Flat rate fines *are* discriminatory, since they only affect poor people. Making them proportional to your income fixes that problem. Also, someone "rich" who gets fined isn't being penalised for being rich; he's being penalised for not obeying the law.

      Case in point: some guy was fined around $1M a couple of years ago for speeding in Switzerland. His income is, presumably, many times that number. If he were fined $200, do you really think that would be a deterrent against future infractions?

      Now, you argue that fines are not the way to go. That's a different discussion. Where I live, you get a fine and lose your licence for up to 3 years - there's a penalty that affects all income brackets equally (*). I like your community service idea even better. But your analysis of the fairness of income-proportional fines is flawed, and typical of the "oh poor rich people, persecuted by the evil society" mindset, so unbelievably popular these days (with GOP candidates, I mean).

      (*) Well, at least on the surface. In fact, those of us with drivers will be less affected, as will those that can pay to take a cab anywhere they go.

    14. Re:Yes by Shark · · Score: 5, Insightful

      To keep things in perspective though, is a speeding fine was 25 cents, would you be very observant of the rules yourself? I think the 'noble' kind of morality is grossly overrated, case in point from the article that when poor people are made to think they're special, they break rules too. Being rich doesn't make you less moral, it just greatly diminishes the consequences of being amoral.

      Bottom line is that we're pretty much *all* selfish, we just can't all afford to be.

      --
      Mind the frickin' laser...
    15. Re:Yes by foniksonik · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I lost my house (shortsale) and had to move to a new state to find work. When the scenario is one person in ten thousand then it's likely they had poor judgement. When it's nine thousand out of ten thousand the system was flawed. When the system failed it snowballed creating a gap in the economy, which ended in high unemployment through a cascade of lost revenue.

      My loan was fine when I was fully employed. Companies stopped spending because the banks stopped loaning money so I had no clients. No clients, no income.

      Risky mortgages propped up a false economy and high home prices. This was not common knowledge or even discoverable by a well informed home buyer.

      I was defrauded and lost my principal and equity. The mortgage industry and banks are culpable for this travesty. They were both aware and in control of the factors which lead to the false economy.

      I was lucky to be able to cut my losses. Not many are/were so lucky and we all deserve justice.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    16. Re:Yes by jgdobak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We hire experts in various fields when our knowledge is not sufficient for the task at hand.

      Medical problems? Call a doctor.

      Legal problems? Call a lawyer.

      Tax problems? Call an accountant.

      Don't understand how mortgages work? Call your local bank/mortgage broker.

      What, the nice mortgage broker tells you that you can afford a mortgage far above what makes sense to you? Well, he IS the expert and he's on your side! He works for your bank, after all...

      Of course, he may get a commission on pushing through as many mortgages as possible and he may be falsifying paperwork and credit scores out of whole cloth at the urging of the lending institution, which is selling these bad mortgages up the chain, but hey... He IS the expert.

      Expecting a home buyer to understand the purposely-obfuscated home buying process is as stupid as expecting him to understand why chemo may be necessary. Banks took advantage of the trust of their customers and cheated them, end of story.

  2. Selective evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Those who lie, cheat, steal, and ignore any law they can get away with are more likely to strike it rich. Also, prius drivers are douchebags.

    1. Re:Selective evolution by ZeroSumHappiness · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Is that really the cause?

      Perhaps people who are rich perceive a smaller consequence for behaving badly. They "know" (possibly only at a subconscious level) that they can buy their way out of trouble so they feel the risk of being chastised is weaker.

      Or maybe they feel that because they are rich they have contributed (again possibly only subconsciously) and so should be allowed to bend or ignore rules. I think this meshes with the Prius driver example -- maybe Prius drives feel that the good karma they've gained by driving a Prius entitles them to more leniency in road etiquette. (Again, this is most likely subconscious if this is the actual reason.)

      I think it's just a knee-jerk us-vs.-them reaction to say that the amoral get rich and the nice guy loses, as if the rich deserve to be brought down a peg because they must be evil to be rich, rather than power and money corrupting them once they get there.

    2. Re:Selective evolution by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Give someone a sense of 'empowerment' or 'better than you' and it's amazing what their conscience will let them get away with.

      see also def. Anonymous Coward

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
  3. Money doesn't make people immoral. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's just easier to get rich if you're amoral to begin with.

  4. The rich are not without the need for morals by prgrmr · · Score: 5, Informative

    "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
    Napoleon Bonaparte

  5. Sense of Entitlement by RoknrolZombie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's the sense of entitlement (perhaps appropriate for some rich people...not even remotely appropriate for the Prius drivers) that does it. When someone sees their job/life/goal as being "important", they figure that they should be "allowed" a bit more leeway. I doubt it's a conscious decision on their parts (at least for most), but I've noticed the same thing: The higher up on the totem pole you get, you notice an increase in the undeserved entitlements that are claimed.

  6. Echoes tale from Freakonomics by rbrander · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In the book "Freakonomics", about how the statistical tools economists use can bring some light to other areas of social study, the tale is told of a guy who ran a business model of dropping off bagels at office coffee rooms around town, with a voluntary-contribution box, and kept meticulous records for many years of his repayment rate. Turns out the upper floors (as in, upper management) and near corner offices and so on, had the lowest rate.

    The authors were careful about drawing conclusions, though they entertained by speculating - was it "have to run to my important meeting, that's more important than digging around for change, my time is worth $900/hour", or was it just a "sense of entitlement"?

    This may tip the needle towards "self-entitled bastards", though it remains speculation, of course, not conclusion.

    The Prius thing may indicate another reason for being a "self-entitled jerk", of course: environmental smugness. Now I'm just TOTALLY speculating, obviously, but I'd add a data point: my rotten self, and all the rotten cyclists like me. We disobey traffic laws with wild abandon, we're notorious for it. And bikes are vastly more environmental (and, better yet, non-road-space consuming) than Priuses. I am shamelessly anti-authoritarian on a bike the way I am not in a car.

    I claim, in my own head (never had to try it on a cop, and don't plan to) that I coast through stop signs and so forth because of the vast importance of Conserving Momentum. And the roadway just "owes" me a little slack because I take up so little of it. And I'm only risking my own damfool neck, I can at most cause others a dent. Or something. If you can get self-entitled by contributing to the common weal that little, imagine how much you get from doing work others value at $900 per hour...

    1. Re:Echoes tale from Freakonomics by xero314 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm only risking my own damfool neck, I can at most cause others a dent.

      Not sure if you truly believe this or if it was just an illustration, but cyclists that disobey traffic laws are putting others lives at serious risk. If people lacked in morality they would just run you over for being where you should not have legally been. As a matter of fact in many places it would be illegal for them to not at least attempt to avoid a collision with you. In the act of avoiding you, while you break the law, there is a high potential of causing a far more serious accident. So please, if you do justify breaking the law, make sure you realise your just making excuses and don't have any legitimate grounds for that justification.

  7. Re:Of course by cptdondo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A little bit. Just my own $0.02.... I used to own an engineering company. We were mostly based on repeat business and word of mouth, and had a steady clientele. We did OK. Our typical hours were four 9s and a 4 and most of us would be gone by Friday afternoon. We had a reputation for being fair to our clients and charging a fair price. I would not accept shady clients or do anything that was unethical.

    One of my major competitors was a workaholic with the instincts of a jackal; you were a disappointment if you worked less than 60 hours a week, for which he paid you your base salary. He worked probably 80 to 100 hours a week and took his laptop on vacations. He spent 3 hours a week with his kids; one hour per child. He had a reputation for being voraciously money hungry and would skirt the law on almost everything as long as there was profit in it. He had no problem cheating clients, employees, or the government.

    He consistently made far more money than I did. He didn't care what his reputation was or how much damage he did to his family or the lives of his employees or the community. He had no friends that I know of.

    I on the other hand still keep in touch with my former employees, sleep well at night, and live a modestly successful life.

    So yes, from my own limited experience, you get richer than me by being morally corrupt.

  8. Money doesn't spoil character, ... by Qbertino · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Money doesn't spoil character, money reveals character.

    Most people haven't fully gauged their inert moral capabilities, I'd suspect. Most of it is adapted and constructed, and once people get rich and have access to power and independace from others, it's these flaky concepts of morality that disintegrate.

    Someone with real character and moral concepts that one does not neccesarly derive from the need to be nice to other people due to scarce resources is more likely to maintain his values, wether he is rich or not.

    It's for this reason that I'm very curious about what would happen with my behaviour if I, for whatever reason, should someday turn rich. I like to believe that only little of my character and my behaviour towards other people would change, but never the less I'd be curious to know if that actually is the case.

    However I do believe that most people reveal an underdeveloped character when exposed to certain amounts of wealth over longer periods of time. Today education througout the world rarely focuses on values independant of economic wealth - which shows how poor humanity actually is.

    My 2 cents.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  9. Not really by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That would be more communistic. Also, be careful what you wish for. On a global scale, you may well discover that you are the 1%.

  10. Re:Worse than Beamers? by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There is this fascinating experiment. It occurred in Israel. The setting is this: there is a day-care centre at which people come to pick their kids at a fixed hour. Now some people are late, and there are no other consequences than the reprobation of the staff.

    Comes in the economists. And they say "incentives matter!". And lo, a small fine is introduced for being late.

    And now many more people are late, for the fine was too low: social pressure had kept people in line, but the small fine told them being late was no big deal. And so the fine is removed.

    And people are still late, because now, the value of being late has been set, and it is low.

    Moral of the story: if someone is a dick, don't let them get away with it. Politely voice your disapproval. Social pressure keeps people in line. And I would bet, even bankers: whatever they think, they cannot buy the respect of people around them. No-one can. An nice person is a nice person, and a dick a dick. Treat people accordingly to their behaviour, and ignore their social status.

    At the end of the day, we are all dead. When you die, having been fair with the people you met means you leave a slightly better Earth.

  11. Wealth is Not Produced by Excess of Charity... by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 5, Insightful

    or Compassion.

    "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
    (Matthew 19:24)

    "But the root of all these evils is the love of money, and there are some who have desired it and have erred from the faith and have brought themselves many miniseries."
    (Timothy 6:10)

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
    1. Re:Wealth is Not Produced by Excess of Charity... by w_dragon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The first of those is misunderstood, the 'eye of the needle' was a term that described that back door to a walled city - the door that would be used after dark when the main gate was closed. It was too small for a fully loaded camel to fit through, so wealthy merchants that arrived at a city after dark would be forced to unload the camel to get into the city. Basically it's just saying that rich people can get to heaven, but they can't take all their stuff with them.

    2. Re:Wealth is Not Produced by Excess of Charity... by osu-neko · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not only can't they take it with them, it suggests they need to unload all their stuff before they even try. Someone who dies rich has failed...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    3. Re:Wealth is Not Produced by Excess of Charity... by I(rispee_I(reme · · Score: 5, Informative

      At which point, they're no longer rich, right?

      Also, I've heard the "eye of a needle is figurative" argument before- what is the evidence that it wasn't intended literally?

      I mean, presumably they had needles with eyes at the time, or else they wouldn't have used the name for the walled city's door.

    4. Re:Wealth is Not Produced by Excess of Charity... by AK+Marc · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "The "eye of a needle" has been interpreted as a gate in Jerusalem, which opened after the main gate was closed at night. A camel could only pass through this smaller gate if it was stooped and had its baggage removed. This story has been put forth since at least the 15th century, and possibly as far back as the 9th century. However, there is no evidence for the existence of such a gate."

      (from Wikipedia, where else?)

    5. Re:Wealth is Not Produced by Excess of Charity... by w_dragon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why would they choose that particular saying? Why a camel and the eye of the needle? Why not a snake if they wanted to say all rich people are evil? Or a dove if they wanted to say that even good people won't be saved if they're rich? Understanding the bible means being able to understand the culture at the time and place it was written, including the idiosyncrasies of the language. Taking literal meaning from a book that was translated from half a dozen different languages, none of which are in common usage any more, probably isn't going to lead to a great deal of understanding.

    6. Re:Wealth is Not Produced by Excess of Charity... by bratwiz · · Score: 5, Funny

      What they meant was the Camel TOE was the gateway to heaven. Not really sure how the back door aspect comes into all this. However, this is the likely origin for the parable about walking a mile for a camel. And, presumably, a rich man could afford to do it in someone else's shoes. It may have also had some bearing as to whether or not it was one hump or two...

  12. Equality of the law by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
    (La majestueuse égalité des lois, qui interdit au riche comme au pauvre de coucher sous les ponts, de mendier dans les rues et de voler du pain.)

    Anatole France

    --
    Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.