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Book Review: Occupy World Street

jsuda writes "For those billions of people for whom the current political-economic system doesn't work–the Occupy Wall Street people, the Tea Partiers, the 99%-ers and have-nots, the middle and lower classes, and the rest of the unwashed masses, Occupy World Street is a starburst of enlightenment and a practical vision of hope for a new and advanced society." Read on for jsuda's review Occupy World Street: A Global Roadmap for Radical Economic and Political Reform author Ross Jackson pages 336 publisher Chelsea Green Publishing rating 9/10 reviewer jsuda ISBN 1603583882 summary shows how a handful of small nations could take on a leadership role; create new alliances, new governance, and new global institutions; and, in cooperation with grassroots activists, pave the way for other nations to follow suit. The book is subtitled appropriately "A Global Roadmap for Radical Economic and Political Order." It functions in a substantial way as the missing "content" for the Occupy Wall Street movement people who know that global capitalism and its political elite are screwing the middle and lower classes and the world environment but don't know exactly how they are doing it and how to change things. The book provides an unusually lucid analysis of the American political-economic system which should make clear to the Tea Partiers what their real targets of rage should be (it's not merely the Democrats nor the federal government.) Nearly everyone else who wants a "big picture" comprehensive analysis of the global economic system will be educated by this book.

The author, Ross Jackson, identifies who and what is responsible for the 2008 financial meltdown and many other problems in society. Most prominent are a seriously-flawed "neo-liberal economic philosophy" and the political-elite class which sponsors that philosophy for self-interested reasons at the expense of the rest of us. Jackson makes clear that economic philosophical theory is not value free and is class politics in disguise. But way more importantly than the mere class versus class struggle, the neo-liberal economic philosophy has created severe energy and environmental problems which are almost certain to lead soon to major economic and political disruptions affecting the entire globe.

The author's main perspective is as an environmentalist; he utilizes a systems approach of an overarching environmental model where the global environment is a closed, finite system and the economic, political, and other topics are subsystems of the whole. The book explains (in six parts and 17 chapters) how and why our existing economic model is failing and will create environmental, economic, and political chaos unless it is replaced soon with an economic model emphasizing "sustainability" and "development" versus simple "unlimited growth." Jackson explains in the second half of the book what we can do about it, hopefully before it's too late for future generations to have a chance for civilized life.

I have never heard before of Mr.Jackson, but he is bound to be (or at least should be) hailed as a top-notch public intellectual. He is a brilliant analyst of global economics, politics, and environmental matters; and a clever synthesist of the relevant economics, politics, philosophy, environmental science, psychology, sociology, history, physics, and biology, which apply to his examination.

He has an unusually broad and diverse background as a global currency trader, executive of a nonprofit environmental organization, software designer and businessman, and degrees in engineering physics, industrial management, and operations research. This may explain, in part, his ability to see major categories of human life with such a wide lens while also being able to analyze the subcategories and the factual data.

Part One explains the scientific and economic reasons why the neo-liberal approach of unending growth is unsustainable and a lie. It is a lie because it implies, at least, that everyone has a chance ultimately to achieve the high level of consumption of the successful capitalists and that the high consumption gravy train will go on forever. He uses biological, environmental, and mathematical data to show that the neo-liberal assumption of infinite natural capital has already resulted in net deficits of global energy resources, and that the world (and the neo-liberal economic system) will end frightfully unless we reduce population, give up the idea of "more of everything is better," redesign and downsize our economies, use less fossil energies, and emphasize sustainability.

The next two parts explain the politics and human factors which drive the irrational economic policies. He goes into good detail about historical economic theory from the mercantile period, to the classical free trade period, to our existing neo-liberal period. He clearly explains how and why the 2008 financial crisis occurred and why it is likely to repeat itself, and how the current debt crisis in Europe (and elsewhere) happened and why the European Union is not equipped even now to successfully deal with it. Any effort to address it (using the existing neo-liberal strategies) will be temporary and the crises will deepen.

His discussions on the neo-liberal insistence on a deregulated economic environment, free flow of global capital, and the use of exotic financial instruments and transactions, especially naked short sales, are the clearest I've read about how these elements de-stabilized the global economy. They will continue to do so as long as those who (very lucratively) benefit from them (the political elite) insist upon them regardless of the consequences to hapless small nations and their economies, small businesses, and people like you and me. He thoroughly and lucidly explains how this political-economic philosophy destroys real democracy, including in America. What we have, he says, is a corporatocracy which dominates much of political and social life through the forces of wealth and ideology.

Mr. Jackson is also a political-economic visionary of the highest order as shown in the second half of the book by his "break away" strategy where he sets out his alternative environmentalist paradigm. It is a new worldview emphasizing the finite reality of our natural resources, especially energy ones, and how we should alter much of what we do to comply with that reality. He argues for a new set of social values harmonious with a holistic sense of people and nature being part of one "system." The values of that system include smallness, localization, quality versus quantity, interrelationships, and long-term perspectives.

These values are organized into a moderately sophisticated set of new global political and economic institutions modeled much like the European Union but emphasizing environmental issues and designed to satisfy long-term environmental needs. This process will also lead to enhancing of true human values in the political sphere, especially in more effective democracies.

The "breaking away" strategy starts with small nation states building a new economic paradigm based upon the environmental perspective, rejecting the flawed and elitist global institutions we have now (the WTO, World Bank, and the International Monetary Fund), and even developing new currency systems. The nation states will be supported by a grassroots activist movement which will create local eco-communities and more self-reliant economies while lobbying existing political powers to get on board with the new paradigm. The measurements of success will not be GNP or GDP but the broader-based measures of social happiness and human rights. (Take the case of the nation of Bhutan which measures its activity by a standard called "Gross National Happiness Index.")

The parts of the book explaining the roles of the neo-liberal economic philosophy and the political elite are solidly presented and not really new. The program of change he proposes, however, is new and intellectually sound. Being intellectually sound, however, is not sufficient to affect change. There is a gap, it seems, between the ideas and what is necessary to activate people at the grassroots level. Relatively few people in reality will even read this book. The ideas need to be connected to "street-level" understandings, perhaps tied to basic human values of respect and dignity. The roadmap proposed here, Mr. Jackson acknowledges, needs much more development.

You can purchase Occupy World Street: A Global Roadmap for Radical Economic and Political Reform from amazon.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

284 comments

  1. Why these ideas will not gain traction by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Putting aside the obvious problem of going up against the incredible, almost god-like, power of the huge megacorporations that own almost every major government in the world, there is an even bigger problem that you're going to face with your "sustainability" message (especially in the U.S.):

    Your first message to the masses is going to be "You have to make real sacrifices."

    You won't even get the final "s" in sacrifices out before they tar and feather you and run you out of town on a rail. This is a country where a dollar-per-gallon increase in gas prices almost starts a riot, where "keeping up with the Joneses" is considered a birthright, where not one single President or politician has asked *any* American to sacrifice *anything* in over 40 years. No politician here has EVER won on a message of "I'm going to make things materially worse for you" irrespective of whether or not he adds "But things will be better in the long-term for your grandchildren."

    They only way your revolution will ever happen will be by force (force of economic collapse or force or arms, but certainly not by popular vote). No one is going to vote for the guy who is asking them to give up their new car, their big house, their HDTV. You can't guilt someone into making REAL HARD material sacrifices.

    Social movements in the U.S. do occasionally succeed in getting minor sacrifices out of the public, but the MAJOR ones that this would require? Good luck with that.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Because joblessness at 4 year lows, Multiple dictators either killed or unseated, american buisinesses going from bankrupt to record profits, the stock market up higher than when he took office and taking a negetive GDP to positive clearly spells out his failures right?

    2. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, the president has absolute power and all gains and failures go to them...

      But really, anyone who didn't veto the NDAA (even if it would be passed anyway) is a corrupt imbecile in my books. He's bought and paid for just like any other politician is.

    3. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Because joblessness at 4 year lows, Multiple dictators either killed or unseated, american buisinesses going from bankrupt to record profits, the stock market up higher than when he took office and taking a negetive GDP to positive clearly spells out his failures right?

      Problem is that most people rightly attribute those positives as being accomplished in spite of Obama and not because of Obama.

    4. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lots of replies saying im wrong, with no data to back it up, keep it up.

    5. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by BlueStrat · · Score: 1, Troll

      Because joblessness at 4 year lows, Multiple dictators either killed or unseated, american buisinesses going from bankrupt to record profits, the stock market up higher than when he took office and taking a negetive GDP to positive clearly spells out his failures right?

      Ah, the infamous "Ferris Bueller" political strategy!

      Find a parade, jump up on the big lead float, and claim credit for the parade!

      Oh, you mean we weren't supposed to understand that?

      My bad.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    6. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I liked how you took one small 3 word segment of that, declared the poster thought obama was the messiah, and ignored the rest.

      Yes, democrats are the ones with the messiah complex.

    7. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Dutchmaan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      While I agree with your sentiment, what a movement needs is a main figure who will "make real sacrifices". People are not stupid and will no go out on a limb if they feel they are going to be out there alone. If you get at least one person who feels strongly enough about something to actually go it alone, others will and do follow suit.

      It really follows a bell curve, you get the people who feel strongly about it first. When you have enough of them, you get people who agree with you and feel the time is right now that more people are being active, after the peak you get the people who don't really care but will go with the crowd and at the far end the people who probably disagreed but won't go against the crowd.

      The fuel is there, there just needs to be enough "spark" to get critical mass.

    8. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is because marketing it as a sacrifice is simply wrong. It is not a sacrifice unless you discount the good of it. It is a decision of casting away some pros for more pros and less cons.

    9. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lots of replies saying im wrong, with no data to back it up, keep it up.

      Where is your data?

    10. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by RyoShin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh, that I had mod points. However, one note:

      This is a country where a dollar-per-gallon increase in gas prices almost starts a riot

      It will never come close to starting a riot. All it will do is make a lot of talking heads on TV talk about gas prices more, some people will drive a bit less, one guy will start taking the bus, three guys will each buy a bike but only one will ever use it, and everyone will post to Facebook about how much gas prices suck.

      The only thing that will make Americans in general riot these days is if their sports team of choice does... something. Win, lose, disband, it doesn't seem to matter, it all leads to civil unrest. (I really don't understand this, either.)

    11. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I get it. The economy is bad because of Obama, except that it's improving, despite Obama.

      Something's faulty with your logic, mate.

      Here's my theory. Economics is too big and too complicated to be able to pin the blame or the credit on politicians. At best, their policies take years to begin to alter the system in any appreciable way. Politicians will, of course, claim credit for the good things that show up during their term(s) and will deny responsibility for the bad things that appear, and the opponents of said politicians will, inversely, claim the good things had nothing to do with the politician in question or possibly happened despite said politician's unbelievable and never before seen incompetence, and the bad things, well, those are obviously the politician's fault, again due to said politician's unbelievable incompetence.

      It's sort of like a conspiracy theory, but you don't have to wear tin foil hats or be a paranoid schizophrenic to play. Mind you, do have to have another mental disorder; blinding partisanship.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    12. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by sjames · · Score: 1

      Just WOW. Political discourse is officially dead. The economy tanks in Bush's second term and it's somehow Clinton's fault, and it starts recovering under Obama and it's NOT his doing. (And I say STARTS recovering, so far it's only really good for the 1%). The big bank bailout somehow IS Obama's fault even though it was done during the Bush administration, etc etc.

    13. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by SnarfQuest · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because joblessness at 4 year lows,

      Amazingly, jobness is also at a 4 year low (number of people who have jobs). Amazing what statistics you can come up with when you leave off people who have run out of unemployment insurance.

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    14. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    15. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup , you're on the money there.
      Better get a lil place in the boondocks and maintain a low profile if you want to pretend to live free. Be smart enough to be self sustaining, learn to barter,farm,engineer,hunt and cook. I realize that camping in a park probably qualifies many to fend off bears and armadillos, so we stand a fighting chance.
      Just be ready to die for the freedom you made on that little chunk o' property. I suggest arming yourself to the teeth. Try the Instructables.com hydrogen bomb trebuchet or the light anti tank potato gun. Now that's the spirit of those who freed us the first time....

    16. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    17. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      . Economics is too big and too complicated to be able to pin the blame or the credit on politicians.

      Politicians can not 'fix' the economy, but they can do (or avoid doing) things that will make it much, much worse.

    18. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The movement needs more than a leader. It needs a point. By the time the Occupiers were finished, you had everybody from homeless advocates (and homeless) to raving Marxists, neither of which represent in any way the alleged 99%. At least the Tea Partiers had a tangible set of principles and goals. Being reactionary Libertarian, I despise much of what the Tea Party stands for, but there was at least some sense that there was a direction beyond "we're just against those guys".

      Political movements that cannot solidify a single set of goals die out. It's not the leaders alone that do it. The problem with the Occupiers is the same as the peace movement of the 1970s. At the core, one of the founding principles is that everyone has their own idea of where the movement should go. There's a core kind of philosophical anarchism which means that no one is ever really going to become a leader, and if they did, they'd just end up fracturing the movement if they ever did anything faintly leader-like.

      Beyond that, revolutions are dangerous things. Smashing existing economic, political and social structures rarely actually ends with something stronger. The American Revolution is an exception, rather than a rule. I much prefer the more evolutionary approach that lead to democracy in Britain, from the Glorious Revolution to the greater and lesser reform acts of the 19th to the 20th century. No burning down buildings or taking emperors and their families out into the woods and gunning them down.

      The last thing you want is fanatics. The Tea Party almost brought the US debt into discredit for the first time in the history of the United States through some sort of mad desire to remain ideologically pure. No thanks, don't want that kind of revolution.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    19. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I could agree with you but... I'm in, actually. If there is a solid plan that gets our country back on track as a Republic then I personally am willing to drop the partisanship and do something useful. Just help me figure out what is actually useful.

    20. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Whatever happened to "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country?"

    21. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Moheeheeko · · Score: 1

      Thank you for proving my point. How soon people forget that Obama took over in '09, AFTER the shit hit the fan, and now unemployment is back where it was when he took over 4 years ago, aka he stopped the bleeding and now we are recovering.

    22. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by sycodon · · Score: 2

      Sounds like you and the author are standing on a pile of 100 million people murdered by various tyrants looking to build a better society and shouting, "Let's try again!"

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    23. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Both GWB's and Obama's economic advisers had a historical model; the Hoover administration, which chose to keep its head above the economic crisis during its early stages at a point when intervention might have at least stabilized the economy (despite what people the, crash of 1929 didn't lead to a decade-long down, it lead to high volatility, which is in many ways much worse, and it was that that lead to the Depression). By targeted bail outs to prevent a complete freeze up of the movement of global credit, both GWB and Obama prevented a nightmare scenario. Yes, it sucks that some really incompetent bastards got saved from their own wickedness and idiocy, but history will show, I think, that as bad as the 2008 collapse was, it was the actions of the outgoing and incoming American administrations which prevented it from becoming another Depression.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    24. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Thing+1 · · Score: 0

      A c-c-c-c-clusterf-f-f-f-failure?

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    25. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Informative

      And now you're getting jobs and economic stability and mandated health care. The US is still a little uneven, but Christ man, look across the pond, where Europe can't even begin to right the boat. Besides, considering how health care continues to eat more US GDP than even the most socialized industrialized nation, you would think it might actually be an improvement.

      This is what I mean by extreme partisanship. It fogs the mind, prevents someone from viewing a policy on its merits. It simply becomes "fuck that, I want this", even if the "this" is probably impossible, whereas the "that" is at least something can be done.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    26. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by mspohr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The summary said nothing about sacrifices. It does say:

      "The "breaking away" strategy starts with small nation states building a new economic paradigm based upon the environmental perspective, rejecting the flawed and elitist global institutions we have now (the WTO, World Bank, and the International Monetary Fund), and even developing new currency systems. The nation states will be supported by a grassroots activist movement which will create local eco-communities and more self-reliant economies while lobbying existing political powers to get on board with the new paradigm. The measurements of success will not be GNP or GDP but the broader-based measures of social happiness and human rights. (Take the case of the nation of Bhutan which measures its activity by a standard called "Gross National Happiness Index.")"

      It looks like it is proposing a system based on strengthening local economies and freeing them from the tyranny of corporations while at the same time causing less damage to the environment. If you measure happiness by how much petrol you burn or how much cheap shit from China slave labor you consume, then I guess you might consider this a sacrifice. Many other people measure their happiness by health, security, family and friends as well as having adequate food and shelter. I believe this is what the book is proposing, not sacrifices.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    27. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      While I agree with your sentiment, what a movement needs is a main figure who will "make real sacrifices".

      It almost sounds like Warren Buffett could fill this requirement: he complains that his taxes are lower than his secretary's, and dares the government to do something about it -- in other words, he's saying "please help me (and others like me who aren't as willing) to sacrifice."

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    28. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Clearly the answer is to increase the scale. One billion corpses or bust!

      I really wish I could say that the above is satire and no one really thinks that way, but I've met people who do, and now I think I need some rum.

    29. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 3, Informative

      I would suggest, based on your grammatical skills, that the problem lies not with the market but with you.

      I lost my job in the recession. I make over 150% of what I was making in 2009.

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    30. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by 0123456 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And now you're getting jobs and economic stability and mandated health care.

      Weird. Last I looked 'unemployment' was going down, but so was the number of Americans with jobs.

      As for 'economic stability', you'll get that when you stop increasing the national debt by more than a trillion dollars a year.

      The funny part is that Obama will probably win the election anyway because the best the Republicans can find to oppose him is Bob Dole #2.

    31. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by chrisj_0 · · Score: 2

      joblessness at 4 year low
      uh, no. The economy didn't crash until Sept/Oct '08. Also the second stimulus, in Obama's own words, was supposed to keep the joblessness rate below 8%. That was 3+ years ago.

      ... dictators killed..
      if you're referring to the Arab spring Obama didn't really do anything. Sure once the UN said it was ok he bombed Libya for a day or 2 then refueled French planes to do it for us (that a big WTF??). And now what do we have? The Muslim Brotherhood controls half of the Mid-East, which many experts think is a proxy for Iran. Good job Mr POTUS!

    32. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by scot4875 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Healthcare... WTF? Who was asking for that? We wanted jobs and economic stability not government mandated health care.

      Polls, at the time, showed 80% of respondents saying "yes" to "do we need healthcare reform?" So, in response to your question, EVERYBODY is who the fuck was asking for it.

      As for the jobs? That was the whole point of the stimulus bill -- you know, the one that passed in like the first month he was in office? Oh, but that's right -- the stimulus bill was nothing but government waste. He had to do something else to create jobs that didn't involve spending money, such as go beg CEOs and other job creators to hire more gardeners for their personal estates.

      There are lots of legitimate gripes about Obama. Yours? They're bullshit.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    33. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by 0123456 · · Score: 1, Informative

      Just help me figure out what is actually useful.

      Cut regulation, cut spending, cut taxes.

      Obvious and simple, but politically impossible.

    34. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Thing+1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The last thing you want is fanatics. The Tea Party almost brought the US debt into discredit for the first time in the history of the United States [...]

      Almost? Our credit rating dropped. I'm not sure you can use a more cogent term than "discredit".

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    35. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need to spend less time pointing fingers and more time paying attention to what your government is actually doing. I'm not even American and I find your comment brutally ignorant. Even if you don't like your politicians, just bitching about their biggest ticket item is little more than self-effacing defeatism.

    36. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      The political and social elite are of the following mindset...

      Do as i say not as i do

      That's the core if not *only* problem standing in the way. Aside from selling people on the idea, there must be genuine leadership behind the helm of any moment. And you know damn well as I do that this will never happen short of some religious experience. And even that is not guaranteed to be enough of a mover and shaker.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    37. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Thing+1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The only thing that will make Americans in general riot these days is if their sports team of choice does... something. Win, lose, disband, it doesn't seem to matter, it all leads to civil unrest. (I really don't understand this, either.)

      It's "tribal thinking". The good news? The participants also don't understand this, either.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    38. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by icemanwol · · Score: 1

      Exactly right, the only way the changes in this book could be implemented is by force. Now, what force would that be? Well, government of course. With that said, i will just leave these two definitions here.... Socialism play /solzm/ is an economic system characterized by social ownership or control of the means of production and cooperative management of the economy,[1] and a political philosophy advocating such a system Communism is hypothetical classless, moneyless, stateless social order structured upon common ownership of the means of production, as well as a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order. I'm so glade that Slashdot is promoting books for political hacks....

    39. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      One word: default.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    40. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by chrisj_0 · · Score: 2

      wait? your point was he hasn't done anything? didn't fix it, didn't move it, it's right back where he got it all fuckered up? If that's winning after 3 1/2 years for you can you be my boss?

      Incidentally, he (and the Senate) also have not passed a budget in this time that he's been keeping unemployment right at 8.3% (15.1% depending on the numbers you use).

    41. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by 0123456 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Polls, at the time, showed 80% of respondents saying "yes" to "do we need healthcare reform?" So, in response to your question, EVERYBODY is who the fuck was asking for it.

      1. They were asking for 'healthcare reform', not mandatory insurance.
      2. Just becasue people think they need something, that doesn't mean it's a priority. I'm guessing that if you asked them to list the most important things Obama should be doing, mandatory health insurance with free condom cover wouldn't have been anywhere on the list.

    42. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by chrisj_0 · · Score: 2

      reform != mandate

    43. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently you forgot that unemployment hit 11%/17% and was looking to go deeper before his stimulus passed. You apparently dont know what "stopping the bleeding" means in terms of a massive unemployment jump.

    44. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by jkauzlar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They had their 'points' clearly outlined in their 'Declaration of the Occupation of NYC', which they submitted to the city of NY at the start of the protests. Aside from ignorance, the reason these points went unreported was because they challenge power (i.e. money), and for many people in the MSM, it is not convenient or even permissible in many cases to challenge power. The Tea Party, on the other hand, was in direct support of power (the answer to debt is austerity, the result of austerity is the rich get richer) and so their idiotic points were repeated far and wide.

      That said, as with all movements, when it became popular you had anarchists, communists and just about every left-wing (and some other) special interest group under the sun involved confusing matters. The same thing happened to the tea party when racists, gun fanatics, birthers, tenthers and morans with misspelled signs used the tea party as their platform, because that's where they could get on TV.

      Beyond that, revolutions are dangerous things.

      Occupy was not a 'revolution.' The 'core' occupiers and the movement in large never suggested taking down the gov't. But what they did was enormously successful in that they brought unprecedented attention to the corruptive influence of Wall Street on gov't. In a democracy the best you can do is get people talking about facts, and hope the raised level of consciousness will ultlimately give politicians the courage to do the right things.

    45. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1, Funny

      Economics is too big and too complicated to be able to pin the blame or the credit on politicians.

      But wait, it's really simple: Y = C + I + G + (X â' M)

      Paul Krugman says so.

      Y'know what. If politicians take the credit as their egos insist they do, they get to take the blame too.

      --
      Deleted
    46. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by GmExtremacy · · Score: 1

      You might be talking about different people there...

    47. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Surt · · Score: 2

      His willingness to pay voluntarily will neither have a tangible result (he's too poor to put a meaningful dent in the US budget), nor change policy. His unwillingness to pay voluntarily might help to change policy.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    48. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... We wanted jobs and economic stability not government mandated health care.

      Explain this to me - someone on the outside looking in. Americans are self-appointed capitalists and anti-socialists, yet nowadays all they talk about is getting a job. Shouldn't they be talking about starting their own businesses? After all, that's what the "American Dream" was about, move to the States, start a business, profit.

      Do Americans realize that they've totally lost sight of the "American Dream"? Do they realize that by asking for jobs and not business opportunities, they're practically handing over their freedom to the big corporations on a silver platter?

    49. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
      Brilliant article in the Daily Mash Right-wing people smart enough to hate everyone Choice quotes:

      Deciding who's cleverest between left and right is like deciding which tube of Smarties would make the best Pope.

      And while racism, homophobia and insisting climatology is a pyramid sales scam are all a bit dense, so is standing on top of a pile of skulls and shouting, 'let's try it again'.

      (posting AC as moderating)

    50. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Well, written, but I take issue with this part:

      At least the Tea Partiers had a tangible set of principles and goals.

      I've heard so many people claiming to speak for the Tea Party saying conflicting things. One obvious one is bans on abortion. That's more government and very obtrusive government by anyone's measure. Some say that's not a Tea Party issue, others say it is. I can't check, because the Tea Party doesn't actually exist.

    51. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by chrisj_0 · · Score: 1

      but, but it went deeper after his stimulus was passed... is my point! And now your argument is that it took 3+ years for over $700 billion dollars to trickle down and show job growth?

    52. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by publiclurker · · Score: 0

      not a problem, since economically ignorant baggers will normally claim that these unemployed are simple lazy freeloaders whenever it suits their purpose.

    53. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by publiclurker · · Score: 0

      While I'm certain that leaches like you would like nothing more than to have the grownups pay for all of your mistakes, the real world does not work like that son. Hopefully, you'll figure that out when you grow up.

    54. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by publiclurker · · Score: 0

      what's that saying again about an answer being obvious, simple and wrong? I know kids don't like it when the grownups prevent them from making further messes, but letting people like you run around without any rules is a pretty bad idea.

    55. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by sjames · · Score: 0

      It's all just one big blurry ball of fail.

    56. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The upside is a lot of people don't have to go through the trauma of filing for taxes anymore. No income above a certain threshold means you don't have to pay squat. I'm pretty sure that's what I've been told by prep agents when I was out of work for 3 years.

      I guess the fun will be when it comes time to collect taxes and all the funding isn't there from those unemployed that are no longer "unemployed" under terms of insurance. Also I'd have reason to suspect a lot of people are underemployed, that means they're working but since they're now making a pittance rather than a reasonable wage - it's still going to kill the tax base. Having a majority of (underpaid) service jobs isn't going to do enough to support a sustainable economy, and sooner or later certain levels of government aren't going to be able to do anything for lack of funds.

      One should keep in mind that not all jobs are made equal (some unfairly so), and I suppose one of the big failures in government is not representing that information in their statistical data when planning ahead.

    57. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by evil_aaronm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree with the other two, but which "regulation" are you cutting?

      Financial regulation? We've seen that effective controls on what corporations can do is a "good thing." Gas prices went up, in part, due to unbridled speculation on the part of Goldman-Sachs, et al, who were given letters saying, "Fuck regulation - do what you want." GS loved it - the rest of us, not so much.

      Environmental regulation? We can't trust Ford to dispose of leftover paint safely - it's now in peoples' yards in some parts of New Jersey because Ford had it dumped in abandoned mines - and do you really want Monsanto and Dow running free and naked over the environment?

      Key word is effective regulation. No regulation is a license for companies to fuck us over to make a buck.

    58. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Depends, why is the world going to hell? Why are economies everywhere dying? Who is John Galt?

    59. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by nedlohs · · Score: 2

      Just ignore the economic/political message (whether you agree or not), but take the sacrifice part of this:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkEtArDFNYA#t=0m26s

      Asking Americans to make sacrifices is ludicrious...

    60. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Oddly, I think the Republican's best chances are with Palin, only the Republicans know they'd rather have Obama in charge than a teabagger. Palin will attract some of the Obama voters, and as long as the Republicans don't stay home, a polarized election with two "minorities" promising change will nullify much of Obama's change/underdog factors.

    61. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      For priorities, "health care reform" was at or near the top of most people's lists. Sure, mandatory insurance isn't how most of them envisioned it, but that doesn't change the reality it was desired and delivered.

    62. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone how can't spell or use punctuation properly calling someone else an idiot. How charming. Add to that crazy ranting and quoting Rush Limbaugh and this gets a +1 Insightful? Riiiiight.

    63. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by crgrace · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I lost my job in the recession, too. I make 86% of what I was making in 2009.

      I suck. Although, I will hazard a guess that you're the exception and I'm the rule.

    64. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by scot4875 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By the time the Occupiers were finished, you had everybody from homeless advocates (and homeless) to raving Marxists, neither of which represent in any way the alleged 99%. At least the Tea Partiers had a tangible set of principles and goals.

      Your bias is showing.

      Being reactionary Libertarian

      Ahh, well at least you're honest.

      I thought the Tea Party sounded like a great idea. Then they built an 'official' website. The website showed *nothing* but a more extreme version of the Republican platform. (socially regressive to the extreme, typical small government platitudes for the proles who buy that shit, etc). I don't get how so many people like you can rag on OWS and praise the Tea Party in the same breath.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    65. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Mashiki · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Tea Party almost brought the US debt into discredit for the first time in the history of the United States through some sort of mad desire to remain ideologically pure. No thanks, don't want that kind of revolution.

      Yeah I mean it couldn't have ANYTHING to do with Obama's failed economic plan of Keynesian economics of blow lots of money without any plan at all right? I mean how the hell do you blow ~$4 trillion in under 3 years alone except by being an idiot? That you blame the tea party simply says you're wallowing in what you're being told instead of understanding the metrics and economics of what Obama and his panel of idiots pulled.

      That plan: Throw money at it. Tell me, does throwing money at something ever work? And does cutting 1% to 'save' yourself while in debt up through your asshole work either? Of course it doesn't. At best the US needed to take direct spending cuts, at worst they needed to properly prioritize, the entire government bureaucracy is top heavy and start gutting. Want to know how I can say this? Because we had someone here in Ontario by the name of Bob Rae(now Liberal leader) who did exactly the same thing that Obama is doing. It ended with our rating cut here, and it should only be another 20 years or so before the province pays off his debt. And he only doubled it.

      Enjoy your taste of socialism. Because that's all it was.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    66. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      And mustn't forget the troop withdrawal from Iraq. Happened under Obama, but planned and scheduled under Bush, and Bush gets the credit...

      Oh, wait, didn't happen that way did it? It WAS planned and scheduled under Bush, but Obama got the credit....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    67. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by flaming+error · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Excellent point. Problem is that it's damn hard to start a small business. Licenses, taxes, regulations make it really hard.

      I'm not a right-wing supply sider - I'm a pretty liberal software engineer who tried to start a board and care home for the elderly with his RN wife, and got govsmacked into poverty for it. We could hardly keep up with how many regulatory agencies we had to report to, let alone know all their regs, and all the legislation they were nominally based on.

      I went out of business six years ago, and the state is still after me for paperwork.

      I'm cool with the government investigating and prosecuting crimes, but their regulations are often not really about protecting people. We got fined once for not having a chair in an unoccupied bedroom.

      The regulatory compliance regime favors large corporations and under-the-table operations. Try doing something useful and playing by the rules and you're likely to lose your shirt.

    68. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      ..and that's the problem: 'social' movements never offer anything as a solution.. they just demand sacrifice. here in america we have that on the left and 'lower taxes for the wealthy' on the right.. it's a shitty, non sequitur choice.

    69. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by jobiwankanobi · · Score: 1

      I'm not a big Obama fan, but most of the critics of Obama criticize him for the wrong reasons. Newsweek aired a cover article "Why are Obama's Critics so Dumb?", and most of the critics in this forum prove that article's point. They blame him for the economy when he inherited the worst recession in history (that was not a depression). Or they say he should have turned around the economy sooner or that his stimulus didn't work. If you want to criticize Obama, how about doing it for real reasons, like his signing NDAA on New Year's Eve when he should have vetoed it (as a former constitutional law professor), or how trillions escaped from the Federal Reserve in zero percent interest loans to banks, which turned around and reinvested in U.S. treasury bonds, which amounted to our taxes turning their losses into profits. How about criticizing him for being Wall Street's butt boy? Or saying one thing and his justice department doing something different altogether? Or for not closing Guantanamo?

    70. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      France and Germany are still powerhouses, the Nordic countries that aren't Iceland are doing okay, the UK seems to be approximately paralleling the US... the problem are the weak countries. The unfortunate thing about the EU is that those weak links exist, and can screw with the whole union.

    71. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it, and everyone will post to Facebook about how much gas prices suck.

      The internet. Opium for the masses.

    72. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by drago177 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Just to add: mandatory insurance allowed additional people to be insured that weren't before. That is something on a lot of people's list at the time:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_on_health_care_reform_in_the_United_States#Polling_results_pre-2008

      pre-2008 polls say:
      95% said that it is a serious problem that many Americans do not have health insurance
      64% said that the federal government should guarantee health insurance for all Americans
      60% would pay higher taxes to do so.
      But only 43% said that it would be fair for the government in Washington to require all Americans to participate in a national health care plan funded by taxpayers, compared to 48% who said it would be unfair.

      That last one is worded differently from what happened, so actually doesn't disprove my point. If they worded it, "require Americans who can afford cheaper insurance from private companies to purchase it", then the numbers would have been more favorable.

      > free condom cover
      I'm guessing you meant women's contraception. Big difference, although both save this country a lot of money and stress.

    73. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Whatever happened to "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country?"

      It was answered.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    74. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by guspasho · · Score: 5, Informative

      It should be pointed out that the people who downgraded US debt are the same who rated those subprime securitized bonds AAA.

    75. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by BasilBrush · · Score: 4, Informative

      Weird. Last I looked 'unemployment' was going down, but so was the number of Americans with jobs.

      Well either you're imagining it, or it's somewhat more than a year ago that you looked. Because the number of people in employment has been consistently rising for at least the last year.

      http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

    76. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It takes more than one event for something to become a depression. The depression wasn't caused by a single event, it lasted so long because it was perpetuated by many events. The Smoot-Tawly tarriff act. Some of Roosevelt's policies (there is disagreement on which ones, but everyone thinks at least some of them were harmful). And it is important to not forget the damaging effect that a dustbowl can have on an economy. Anyone who forgets the dustbowl will not have a complete understanding of the depression, and why it lasted so long.

      There is one thing that both Bush and Obama failed to do, which annoys me every time I think of it, because it's so obvious. They should have broken up the banks that got bailout money. It may be true (although it certainly hasn't been proven) that some of those banks were too big to fail, because of systemic risk. However, if it is true, then they need to be broken up so they won't cause problems in the future. This was the idea proposed by Paul Volcker, and he was 100% right.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    77. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Actually, politicians do 'fix' the economy.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    78. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      1. They were asking for 'healthcare reform', not mandatory insurance.

      And they'd have got more healthcare reform had the Republican's not blocked as much as they could.

      The idea that people don't want to have healthcare cover is stupid. The idea that they want a choice whether they have healthcare cover or not is retarded. If people get ill, they want to be treated. No matter whether they can afford the treatment they need at that moment. The fact that the richest country in the world hasn't had universal healthcare for so long is a scandal.

    79. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by BasilBrush · · Score: 3, Informative

      Amazingly, jobness is also at a 4 year low (number of people who have jobs)

      Is it fuck. Number of people who have jobs has been rising for at least a year.
      http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

      Amazing what statistics you can come up with when

      Amazing what statistics you can come up with when you talk out of your ass. And I mean you.

    80. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      funny how marxists are always "raving", but capitalists aren't.

    81. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with UE it that it is not a democracy, therefore we people cannot make incompetent politician leaders going away, or change rules like the ban for European Central Bank to loan money to member states. What they tried in Greece does not work, it makes the situation worse, and now they want to do the same for the whole continent.

    82. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Polls, at the time, showed 80% of respondents saying "yes" to "do we need healthcare reform?"

      Trouble is, that "healthcare reform" could be increasing coverage of what we have, or getting rid of what people think is not really needed. I imagine that for many conservatives, reform is cutting off the people they see as the deadbeats of society. If my family is any indication, most would seem to think Medicaid and Welfare were completely cut, those people getting them would then go get jobs, improve our economy, and the saved money plus economic growth would solve the county's budget crisis.

    83. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      95% said that it is a serious problem that many Americans do not have health insurance

      I think you meant to reply to the GP and not me, but I have to put in my $0.02 here. The problem isn't that they don't have it, but that so many *can't* get it, whether because of the stupid rules about pre-existing conditions or because it's so expensive that only (some) employees get it, and it's impractical to buy it as an unemployed person. Making it a crime to buy the insurance isn't a "fix". Expanding free coverage so that nobody needs insurance (but can still get it and go to private doctors if they wish) is what many people had in mind when complaining about insurance.

      Everybody already participated in a national health care plan funded by taxpayers, even though more oppose that than support it. Lowering the age for medicare would have been much better than what we got, and done right, would have provided better care for less money too (while still preserving the "free market" of doctors).

    84. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fuel is there, there just needs to be enough "spark" to get critical mass.

      Then the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate.

    85. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Lehk228 · · Score: 2

      >> At least the Tea Partiers had a tangible set of principles and goals.

      principles like rage over a black president and goals like finding the birth certificate?

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    86. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      Weird. Last I looked 'unemployment' was going down, but so was the number of Americans with jobs.

      There is a logical explanation to that! Unemployment only considers people who are LOOKING for work (in last 6 months, I think). So if 100,000 people lose their jobs, but 200,000 people stop looking for work, then you have an effective reduction in unemployment rate (since the total effect is there are 100,000 LESS people who are considered "unemployed").
      It's a somewhat skewed system.

    87. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by ultranova · · Score: 1

      It should be pointed out that the people who downgraded US debt are the same who rated those subprime securitized bonds AAA.

      Ouch.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    88. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      1. They were asking for 'healthcare reform', not mandatory insurance.

      I tend to agree. Moreover, when something is mandatory it is NOT insurance. It is really more of a tax -- collected from everyone and providing societal benefits to all.

      2. Just becasue people think they need something, that doesn't mean it's a priority.

      Are you a politician by trade? That must be the kind of logic allowing our elected politicians to blithely ignore things that a majority of people (even across parties) demand. If 80% of people want something, you'd think that _would_ make it a priority for democratically elected representatives? They are elected to represent, not to make unilateral decisions for the unwashed masses.

    89. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      I lost my job in the recession. I make over 150% of what I was making in 2009.

      Aaah, yes, proof by lone anecdote. Well, I guess the economy is now 50% better than it was in 2009? In your world, anyway

      Based on the overall statistics though, the per-job competition is now higher and the average salary for anyone who made less than $1M/year is now lower. That does not mean you can't get a better-paid job now, but it does mean that for every one of you, there are, on average, several people with no job or a lower salary.

    90. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The last thing you want is fanatics. The Tea Party almost brought the US debt into discredit for the first time in the history of the United States [...]

      Almost? Our credit rating dropped. I'm not sure you can use a more cogent term than "discredit".

      It couldn't possibly have been caused by the billion dollars Obama gave to his union buddies in exchange for campaign contributations. Nor his war on oil. Nor his war on businesses. Nor his war on rich people. Nor his war against the constitution. Nor his war on Christion religions. It could only have been caused by people asking for a balanced budget and a less intrusive government.

      We should all follow the lead of the Democrats "occupy" groups, squatting on someone elses property, shiting on the streets, expecting free food, doing drugs, raping and murdering each other, abandoning babies, and then complaining that we aren't getting enough free money for all these wonderful efforts. That should improve out credit rating.

    91. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by ultranova · · Score: 1

      A real sacrifice means a sacrifice you'll notice without the help of a team of accountants. It means that you can't afford a big-screen TV, car or food, not that you have mere 50 rather than 60 billions in the bank.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    92. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "The "breaking away" strategy starts with small nation states building a new economic paradigm based upon the environmental perspective, rejecting the flawed and elitist global institutions we have now (the WTO, World Bank, and the International Monetary Fund), and even developing new currency systems. The nation states will be supported by a grassroots activist movement which will create local eco-communities and more self-reliant economies while lobbying existing political powers to get on board with the new paradigm. The measurements of success will not be GNP or GDP but the broader-based measures of social happiness and human rights. "

      And then NATO will bomb them.

    93. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Enjoy your taste of socialism. Because that's all it was."

      What Obama is doing is socialism?
      Outside of Rush Limbaugh universe that's recognized as a hyperbole.

      In fact everything you said is typical RW blow-hard talk.

    94. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by operagost · · Score: 1

      If you want people to sacrifice, first you have to have a goal. Great sacrifices were made to stop the Axis powers in WWII, and that goal was clear. If there is no goal, then there is no clear end, and the people will rightfully identify the proposition as a mere power grab-- and when rights are taken away, they are very difficult to get back.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    95. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by operagost · · Score: 1

      Who let Janeane Garofalo in here?

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    96. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Compaqt · · Score: 2

      You have as much credibility as the people calling the Occupy folks a bunch of homeless hobos while ignoring their call for financial equity.

      Similarly, you are ignoring the Tea Partiers' main demand for fiscal restraint while focusing on something which didn't even figure in those protests (other than one guy with a stupid sign).

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    97. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by FairAndHateful · · Score: 2

      I lost my job too. I'm making almost exactly the same as I was making in 2009. However, there has been some inflation since then.

      On the upside, I like my new job a lot more, and it's difficult to put an price on that.

    98. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      Great theory. The problem is that, once you downshift to a lower pace of life, you also have less economic development to create armaments of war. So then your neighbors eat you up.

      The reason it works in Bhutan is that it's a protectorate of India, which basically uses Bhutan as a frontline state against China. Now, Bhutan can engage in national happiness, but India (and China and Japan) cannot.

      Another reason it's unlikely is that the modern economic system elevates the power of women. Eco-feminists don't really realize this, but in a society without labor-saving devices made in China, they will be back to washing clothes by hand, gathering wood for making dinner, milking the cows, etc. And without 911 and a police dispatch system, they will need a man.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    99. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by ShoulderOfOrion · · Score: 3

      This. Exactly.

      In the U.S., one party wants more of this Big Government. The other wants more of Big Corp. Both want you to slave away ('sprint' in Agile terms) for Big Labor or Big Corp. Neither is interested in Independent You, because there's no money or power in that for them.

    100. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by mspohr · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you've been spending too much time with Rush.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    101. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by wonkavader · · Score: 1

      Real, solid healthcare reform was also blocked by the Democrats, which is why we got the joke we did. Helps some people, which is good, benefits insurance companies, which is a big waste of money. Leaves a bunch STILL out in the cold.

      Both parties are massively corrupt.

      ---

      Voting for Rocky Anderson.

    102. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      i'm not ignoring anything, i was a supporter of the tea party early on, back when they embraced the name "teabaggers" and joked about "teabagging" but then all the racist assholes piled in and made it nothing more than a branch of the GOP and suddenly "bagging" was a liberal conspiracy to make them look bad.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    103. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      No, Rush Limbaugh is not in favor of a slower economic pace. You're familiar with how he lives, right?

      As for me, I wouldn't mind slowing down the rat-race. But most people wouldn't like it. There'd be no Facebook to waste your time with "friends". Just your real friends that live within a few miles from you. There'd be no Priuses to show off your environmental consciousness. But you wouldn't need it to save the environment because you'd be walking everywhere (again, fine by me).

      Also, I didn't quite catch which direction you were coming from. Do you want women to spend more time on stuff that appliances save them from doing? Women won't have careers in a happy nation. There isn't enough economic excess to pay nannies while you go work.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    104. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by bzipitidoo · · Score: 2

      I'm of 2 minds on this.

      First, you're half right. The Americans who whine don't appreciate how good we still have it in the US. We expect too much of ourselves. Just have to have the big house and not just one big car but at least 2, can't have the neighbors thinking a family is poor, oh no! The people struggling to maintain this unrealistic image of wealth often trap themselves, and then they're stuck in an underwater home and can't move where there are jobs should they lose them. Stupid? Irresponsible? Yes, but our society is harsh.

      The other thing is that instead of fostering a sense of financial responsibility, helping people avoid traps, and going after the scoundrels who set them, we encourage excess, and blame the victims when it doesn't work. Excess is good for the economy. Any slightest suggestion that we should live less large is met with furious denial and all kinds of accusations. People who say such things are viewed as snotty, pessimistic, unpatriotic, wrong, dangerous, and weak. Being compared to former president Carter is an insult. Our elites subtly encourage that. Everything is skewed towards more sales. News is made more dramatic because that's what sells. People are bombarded with advertising. The medical community pushes drugs and treatments regardless of necessity. We like to think we're self reliant, but business has done everything possible to make us more dependent. And we love being mentally lazy in equating wealth with worth. We're far too respectful of the rich just for being rich.

      In short, although we still do have it pretty good, and we should cut back, and we revere self made millionaires, that's no reason to let those criminals in the finance sector off and to bail them out.

      You can see the pressure is getting to people. But instead of lashing out against our insane consumerism, they target intellectuals and scientists of all people. The cost of education certainly ought to be questioned, but to question the value of education is nuts. The Republican party in particular used to be the sober, responsible, fiscally prudent, level headed, smart and brainy party restraining the wooly-thinking and misty-eyed Democrats from going on expensive and useless crusades against intractable problems such as poverty. And Republicans were also not wimpy, foolishly appeasing hippy commie peaceniks, not afraid to use force against our enemies. How things have changed! Now reality, despite actually being pretty good, isn't good enough for the greedy Republicans. They've become the party of dangerous and wrong fantasies, too eager to tell the public everything is still golden, we're still on top of the world, and we don't have to change a thing. And to uphold this illusion, they've thrown all responsibility and scientific integrity under the bus. Then they have the chutzpah to compound their hypocrisy by bashing the Democrats for that. Wall Street is Too Big To Fail! (But screw Main Street. They're a bunch of lazy, entitled, moronic whiners.) Global warming isn't real! Or if it is, it's not our fault! And we can't do anything about it anyway, it's God's will! That is not the attitude we should expect of mature realists. Shameful. Bush II blew through our surplus in his first term, and rushed into a very expensive and completely unnecessary war in Iraq. Only after the Democrats swept in did the Republicans suddenly rediscover their fiscal prudence. They make hippy peaceniks look good. They're dangerous like a loose cannon. They tried to beat up Obama for fighting in Libya, and today McCain did a massive flip flop to urge that we intervene in Syria.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    105. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      And it should be further pointed out that the downgrade had zero noticeable effect on our ability to send bonds. None at all.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    106. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by khallow · · Score: 1

      Putting aside the obvious problem of going up against the incredible, almost god-like, power of the huge megacorporations that own almost every major government in the world, there is an even bigger problem that you're going to face with your "sustainability" message (especially in the U.S.):

      I see your fixes as enabling and worsening that system. We get to make "MAJOR" sacrifices so that the governments and megacorporations can grow even stronger? How about we not do that?

      It's worth noting that you speak of sacrifice without presenting a reasonable argument for why that sacrifice should be done. Faith-based environmentalism is no better than any other form of religion.

    107. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by khallow · · Score: 1

      What Obama is doing is socialism?

      I'd say naked cronyism myself.

    108. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It really follows a bell curve, you get the people who feel strongly about it first. When you have enough of them, you get people who agree with you and feel the time is right now that more people are being active, after the peak you get the people who don't really care but will go with the crowd and at the far end the people who probably disagreed but won't go against the crowd.

      The fuel is there, there just needs to be enough "spark" to get critical mass.

      This succintly describes the rise of the Nazis in Germany between the World Wars.

    109. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Another question that might reasonably be asked is, "Why should we make sacrifices?"

      The simple truth of the matter, and one that almost nobody is willing to discuss publicly, is that at some point before the end of this century the world will have long since used up all of the cheap and easy to get at hydrocarbons. Absent some technological and scientific miracle, the gains of the Green Revolution and the global abundance of food that we presently enjoy will recede into memory as an aberration of history. When that happens, a substantial portion of the population will starve or perish in the resource wars that are sure to follow as population finds its new balance with the diminished carrying capacity of the Earth. Baring the aforementioned technological or scientific miracles, these outcomes are probably inevitable. It's not a question of if, but rather of when (and very likely beginning before the middle of this century). Thus, an argument can be made that sacrifices made now are meaningless and we should instead prepare ourselves to defend what's ours if wish to be counted among the survivors.

    110. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It may be true (although it certainly hasn't been proven) that some of those banks were too big to fail, because of systemic risk. However, if it is true, then they need to be broken up so they won't cause problems in the future. This was the idea proposed by Paul Volcker, and he was 100% right.

      How do you intend to get the political will for that?
      I'm inclined to believe that those banks would have cut off their noses to spite their face, refused the money, crashed and liquidated. Not to mention that government is inherently evil so telling a private company what to do is communism, socialism, nationalization and the destruction of capitalism and freedom (people are dumb). The reaction to taking a stake in GM was bad enough, bankers have their fingers in every pie (the economic system is effectively designed such that all assets eventually default into the hands of a banker) and could whip up a big enough idiot backlash via the media to ensure that short-term solutions are the only ones that prevent people from rioting against their own best interests.

    111. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by fru1tcake · · Score: 1

      "Throwing money at something" worked for Australia, which didn't even go into recession during the GFC*. Yes, we had other things going for us too, but spending billions on building programs and cash handouts did help keep the Australian economy ticking. Cost cutting would have just meant more unemployment, which happens to generate... more unemployment. Sometimes when business lacks confidence, it helps for government to take up the slack.

      Your experience of poor fiscal management does not prove that all government spending is evil.

      --
      It's not a bug, it's a lepidopter!
    112. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Dutchmaan · · Score: 1

      This succintly describes the rise of the Nazis in Germany between the World Wars.

      It also describes Gandhi's non-violence movement to free India.. The statement was about how people act and react not about good/evil of a particular movement.

    113. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who is John Galt?

      He's the hero of a comically bad novel, beloved of high schoolers who haven't learned much economics or history yet.

    114. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should REALLY STOP watching Fox News. Really. It's BAD news.

    115. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by jeppen · · Score: 1

      I fully agree about revolutions and smashing existing structures. The Occupiers doesn't realize that what we've got in the mature capitalist democracies is an improvement over anything that has been seen throughout human history. We actually have an open access social order whose foundation is free entry to competition for positions in economy and politics. This is new and rare. The norm has been that the social order is created by rent-seeking elites limiting access to positions. There is a fairly new academic framework on this: http://www.nber.org/papers/w12795

      It's very heartening that the book reviewed here is not only anti-capitalist, but also peak oil-environmentalist. The mixing, hopefully, makes it less likely that the dangerously ignorant anti-capitalist ideas get traction. Even if Occupiers are not close to understanding this, their typical ideas would make any open-access order country regress into limited-access order. Democracy and capitalism needs each other.

    116. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by jeppen · · Score: 1

      GDP correlates very well with everything else you'd like, and globalization is our best tool to further and broaden this human golden age. The "Cina slave labor" as you call it, is getting rapid increases in wages and hundred of millions are lifted from poverty each decade. Your suggestions sounds good, superficially, but they would create untold suffering if applied.

    117. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Beyond that, revolutions are dangerous things. Smashing existing economic, political and social structures rarely actually ends with something stronger.

      It actually, successful revolutions go the other way around: first a new set of economic, political and social structures crystallize beneath seemingly timid surface of old regime, and when they feel that the last remaining constraint to their continuing development is the old system, they push for turnover and "fix" it. There is always a promise of more freedom for the masses (therefore the new system at first appears to be of reduced strength) and they do get some, but as the new system progresses to post-revolutionary phase, consolidation of power and struggle among the largest players soon gradually achieves successful and almost complete isolation and neutralization of masses' freedoms (case: Second Amendment).

      In short, there will never be a successful revolution of "little guys". New set of powerful masters, having complete new set of blueprints, must lurk in background, ready to raise new flag as soon as old flag is put down. American and French revolutions were revolutions of wealthy merchants who were held back in old system by their origin. British gentry survived through that period only by handing out peerages to all distinguished achievers and by accepting to limit own privileges only to defensive ones - locking commoners out instead of in, letting them establish and arrange a parallel society of their own.

      What we are witnessing now is the rise to power of new ruling class, with which we, new commoners, are already clashing. Yes, I am talking about "Rights Holders Class" or "IP Class", the new "our betters" to whom "we owe it all". Soon we will hang for real for poaching masters' game from the virtual wood of information.

    118. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The regulatory compliance regime favors large corporations and under-the-table operations. Try doing something useful and playing by the rules and you're likely to lose your shirt.

      I thought it was like that only in my third-world poor, corruption-ridden, god-forsaken backwater country, but if it is the same in your allegedly the most startup entrepreneur friendly country in the world, then all my hope for better future is gone :( and we are all screwed.

    119. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Tea Party almost brought the US debt into discredit for the first time in the history of the United States through some sort of mad desire to remain ideologically pure. No thanks, don't want that kind of revolution.

      Talk about swallowing he Democrat party message line hook and sinker.
      I guess it had nothing to do with 15 trillion dollars in debt.
      I guess it had nothing to do with *NO* future budget will ever run be revenue neutral, let alone a surplus to pay down the debt.
      The Tea Party is the only group talking about REALLY fixing our spending problem (and no, taxing the rich will not solve our spending problem)
      There will be future downgrades; I guess those will be the Tea Party's fault also?

      *sigh* It is so sad to see how blind people can be.

    120. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the number of people added to the workforce in that time has gone up by more. So the employment rate of the population as a whole has gone down.

      If you go from 10 people with jobs to 12, while the number of people needing jobs goes from 15 to 20, you have not improved matters.

    121. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by aurispector · · Score: 1

      Yes, listen to what comrad lenin has to say! He lives as one of the people!

      This is all commie bullshit. Look under the hood: anything that places the individual at the mercy of an all powerful state...well if you don't get the picture you never will.

      The capitalist economy is driven by greed and materialism because people are greedy and materialistic - and that's not a bad thing as it provides people with motivation. In fact, you can't really call the desire for financial security and a nice house in a decent area with good schools "greedy and materialistic" although it might technically fit the definitions.

      This book is bullshit, written by a professor of bullshitology. Learn to recognize propaganda when you read it, peeps, especially when they say it's for your own good and is going to save the world.

        You would be better off just talking to people who grew up behind the iron curtain.

      --
      I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
    122. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      You sound bitter. Why are other people's sacrifices unworthy, in your eyes? Or alternately, to trump your absurdity: "A real sacrifice is when you lose a limb."

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    123. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by inthealpine · · Score: 1

      So it wasn't the massive spending by the federal government, but the Tea Party demanding spending be cut? So was it the Tea Party at fault in European countries with similar massive overspending when they were downgraded?
      Your conclusions are like saying your neighbor is responsible for your house burning down because he called the fire department, but you leaving the stove on had nothing to do with the inferno.

      --
      "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
    124. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by inthealpine · · Score: 1

      That's because the major European countries were downgraded as well. AA+ is the new AAA.

      --
      "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
    125. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by inthealpine · · Score: 1

      Have you seen the official OWS demands? The best one is a maximum salary and tax that basically means no one in the US could earn more than $14,000. Literal poverty for all. Now I might not agree with the Tea Party on using big government to push social issues, but a massive reduction of the federal government is the only way to stop a collapse of the US economy. Handing over control to the GOP does nothing, the power and money need to be returned to the people.

      --
      "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
    126. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Coop · · Score: 1

      I have never seen the difference between "throwing money" and private sector that creates a lot of jobs that do nothing for society: advertising, luxury goods, half of the defense budget, most consumer goods, oversized housing, fashion, trips to Cancun where the the infrastructure is designed to keep the tourist from seeing actual Mexico. It's waste either way, burning fuel with no forward motion. It's resources wasted, poof gone forever, just to keep stirring a nation full of scrambled psychologies that can't settle down long enough to know what love is. (Maybe we should throw money at hysteria management?) Individuals throwing money at things that are wasteful or bad for them isn't freedom, it's addiction. There is a huge call for government policies to enable the addiction to continue. Good luck when sickness meets sickness.

      --
      "If you're not passionate about your operating system, you're married to the wrong one."
    127. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct, and you nailed the main point. The whole philosophy of the 'Occupiers' is that someone else pays,someone else makes the sacrifices, someone else does the work, someone else takes the risk - then and only then do those raised in the spirit of 'entitlement' step forward to claim their 'fair share'. I do not sense that those labeled 'Tea Partiers' are the same however, these folks have demonstrated a willingness to sacrifice now for the sake of the future. The next four years, depending on the upcoming election, will set our path and only time will revealed the results.

    128. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by inthealpine · · Score: 1

      How about enforced and targeted regulation. Instead of regulating everything from the central bureaucracy, have targeted federal regulations that protect only true problems between states and other countries.
      Let the states regulate within a state and the people in that state can decide the balance between industry and protection.
      As far as companies causing problems with people of the environment, that's easy, you make sure they are responsible for it. If a company impacts other peoples property or life they need to be fully compensate. I live in an area where IBM dumped chemicals, there has been debate on 'what to do' about it for decades. It's easy. IBM pays to clean it or pays to lease the effected area for 100 years. Once a company realizes if they break a window, they have to fix it, it doesn't sound as fun anymore.

      --
      "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
    129. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sir know nothing of what the Tea Party stood for. Apparently you only know what MSN wanted you to believe about them.

    130. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some would say the US debt almost going into discredit was caused by the US spending more money than it has and going into debt. In fact most people with any sense would recognize the root cause that spending more money than you take in and going into debt was the cause of the crisis.

      Dumb asses abound here on Slashdot.

    131. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by jahudabudy · · Score: 2

      You know, we don't have to guess. S&P said why they downgraded the US' credit rating. "More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a negative outlook to the rating on April 18, 2011". This was in conjunction with Congress playing chicken with the debt ceiling, threatening not to raise it, which would have resulted in the US failing to meet some financial obligations. It is indisputable fact that the US credit rating was downgraded b/c the political leadership valued playing politics over doing what was necessary to meet the US' financial obligations. Whether this was due to the Tea Party's influence or not is perhaps debatable.

      --
      ...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
    132. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It's mainly because very few care what the ratings agencies think, and no one trusts them.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    133. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With our current debt loading the rating would be much lower if was any other country.

    134. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your first message to the masses is going to be "You have to make real sacrifices."

      Yes, the rich will be making 'sacrifices' (and then still be rich) - the rest of us will be better off.

    135. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by tobiah · · Score: 1

      yup

      --
      "The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool" - Jane Wagner -
    136. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Well, it wasn't really IBM, it was IBM mass, an independently operated subsidiary. They went bankrupt and most of their business is now handled by IBM mass new comp. OR There was a class action suit and we settled that for $.60 / acre, the lawyers made $10 million, but that settlement is complete and we have no further legal obligation.

    137. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      I posted above, or I would moderate you up. Anyone who slows down will be overtaken and assimilated (best case), or eliminated. Read history. America would not be full of white people if Indians had domesticated animals, large cities, and guns.

    138. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by ultranova · · Score: 1

      You sound bitter.

      You sound like an astroturfer trying to set up a strawman.

      Why are other people's sacrifices unworthy, in your eyes?

      The context of this discussion is the grandparent's assertion that people will only "go out on a limb" if they have a leader willing to show an example, and your answer that Warren Buffet paying at least as much taxes as his secretary might provide this. It does not, for the simple reason that Warren Buffet can still afford everything he could before (everything he wants) after paying a secretary's tax, and this fact is obvious to everyone. This, in turn, makes you bringing him up pretty strange, unless of course you're paid to do so as part of a PR campaign (or are really this much out of touch with reality).

      Or alternately, to trump your absurdity: "A real sacrifice is when you lose a limb."

      You can certainly spout any absurdities you want, it's a free country after all. It still doesn't make a billionaire hypothethically paying as much rather than less taxes as a secretary a sacrifice in any meaningful way, and certainly doesn't make him an inspiration to others.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    139. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      They had their 'points' clearly outlined in their 'Declaration of the Occupation of NYC',

      You think that's clearly outlined? It's so broad and "rambling" that you might as well call it "everything on the Democrat platform". I mean seriously, it touches on everything from "real problems" (bailout/foreclosures) to whining about student debt to PETA-esque pleas for animal rights. There's no singular message there. If they had focused on the abuses of wall street instead of using their influence to branch into a bully pulpit to push all their utopian ideals, maybe they would have gotten somewhere. But seriously, claiming Wall Street is somehow tied to the "torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals"? That's reaching, to say the least.

    140. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Multiple dictators either killed or unseated

      So you're saying that you're happy that we have a President who will launch multiple undeclared wars. Makes sense, considering the rest of your drivel.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    141. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      And it had nothing to do with the policy makers being to weak to take any serious steps to actually curtail the spending spree? "policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges" is obtuse enough to spin any way you please, but there were multiple efforts to control the spending. The President even shelved the advice from the panel he appointed. People that choose to confront and pay their bills do not get their credit downgraded. It is the broke people who take out credit cards after they have already talked to the bankruptcy lawyer that get downgraded.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    142. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Who are the grownups in this situation? The ones handing money to Solyndra? Or the ones sending guns down to the Mexican drug lords? Wait! I know! Maybe it is the ones saying they don't need Congressional approval to start a war with another country?

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    143. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      You silly boy. You do not understand how the system works. The Democrats raise taxes on the rich, then they hand that money to their supporters on Wall Street or Solyndra or GM. You will definitely not be any better off.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    144. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by guspasho · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily. Germany and Britain are both still AAA and carry heavier debts. Debt isn't the only factor.

    145. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by flaming+error · · Score: 1

      If your hope was to find a better future in the USA, you might reconsider your plans.

      "Allegedly" it may be entrepeneur friendly; it's clearly friendlier than many, many other places. But if you want a business doing something useful, what you really want is freedom and the rule of law.

      Once the USA was the clear choice for that, but those days are gone. Now this is a proud, paranoid, bi-polar, muscle-bound, obese, rudderless empire in denial and decline.

      I recommend watching from a distance.

    146. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      I perceived bitterness, because you're saying that only certain types of suffering are really sacrifices. And then you point your sense of outrage towards me, accusing me of things you know nothing about (my motivations).

      Warren Buffett wants to change the law so that he pays more taxes. I would say that is sacrifice, and your responses to try to belittle his offer/request/suggestion are the ones that seem suspect. Cheers.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    147. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by kermidge · · Score: 1

      Guess my idea of 'social' is different when you said "they never offer anything as a solution."

      I immediately thought of women's voting, labor union organizing, civil rights marches, voter-registration drives, ERA, child-labor protests, etc. Perhaps it depends on which movement and what social.

    148. Re:Why these ideas will not gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Soup is Good Food" - Dead Kennedys, 1985

      http://lyrics.wikia.com/Dead_Kennedys:Soup_Is_Good_Food

  2. What do you want? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And despite all this, i'm sure Erin Burnett will ask "What do you want?!??!?"

  3. OWS: Obama Wasn't reSponsible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Does the book go into the fact that OWS was a smokescreen to blame private corporations for the results of government misregulation for the aid of the Obama re-election campaign?

    1. Re:OWS: Obama Wasn't reSponsible by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Exactly. I'm sure the author goes on and on about the evil banks and corporations, without acknowledging the fact that they would never have had the power to do so much evil in the first place if the government hadn't given it to them. The notion of an entity that's "too big to fail" is the farthest thing imaginable from a capitalistic perspective... yet look who gets blamed.

      Regardless of the question you're asking, more gatekeepers and middlemen are not the answer. That applies to governments as well as corporations.

    2. Re:OWS: Obama Wasn't reSponsible by FudRucker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      the governments and corporates and mega-banksters are all in bed together, and what do you call it when government and finance & industry are in bed together? it is called Fascism!

      --
      Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    3. Re:OWS: Obama Wasn't reSponsible by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Informative

      Does the book go into the fact that OWS was a smokescreen to blame private corporations for the results of government misregulation for the aid of the Obama re-election campaign?

      If you honestly believe the de-regulation of private business (that subsequently led to multiple economic implosions) has only been going on as long as Obama has been president, you haven't been paying attention.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    4. Re:OWS: Obama Wasn't reSponsible by NIN1385 · · Score: 1

      You called it, that is exactly what kind of country/world we live in today. Love the sig by the way, made me really think.

      --

      If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up. - Comedian Mitch Hedberg R.I.P. 03/30/68-2/24/05
    5. Re:OWS: Obama Wasn't reSponsible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "without acknowledging the fact that they would never have had the power to do so much evil in the first place if the government hadn't given it to them"

      And the people allowed this to happen, so they bear the responsibility. The "government" is and always has been the rich, they are the same people who've owned all the land/property/corporations throughout history. So when you say 'the government allowed it' you mean 'the rich rulers voted themselves even more privileges'.

    6. Re:OWS: Obama Wasn't reSponsible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He never said that.

      As long as the two parties who share power keep the public completely polarized, no new ideology can ever get a foothold. Just look at all the ridiculous vitriol in political discussions. It's all absolutes, everyone conservative is evil, everyone liberal is lazy.

      The truth is, pretty much every rational person is fiscally conservative (nobody likes to waste money or resources, do you?) and socially liberal (nobody likes to see children starve, do you?). So it's really easy to pull just about anyone to one extreme or another, and pretend that THEY are the bad guys, and surely WE have nothing in common with bad guys.

      The people who's forefathers set up this system, have it honed and running like a well oiled machine. This latest iteration is Tea Party vs OWS: both groups have been thoroughly co-opted to reiterate the same old narrative, right versus left - simplified to "racist religious zealots" vs "unamerican lazy hippies".

      Both originally stood for (ok, maybe masqueraded themselves as) things I believe in - that we pay too much tax, which goes to corrupt corporations who's power has gotten too far out of hand for society to tolerate.

    7. Re:OWS: Obama Wasn't reSponsible by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1
      I'm not sure where the claim "Obama wasn't responsible" comes in, because he certainly WAS responsible for helping to continue this mess. Not to mention lying during his campaign about almost all of his actual political agenda.

      Be that as it may, I have to agree that "corporatism", or greedy corporations in league with government, is indeed about the farthest thing from capitalism that exists.

      "Fascism should rightly be called corporatism as it is a merger of state and corporate power" --Benito Mussolini

      "Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day." --Theodore Roosevelt

      It should be obvious that this "first task" has yet to be completed.

      It grieves me when blame for these problems is placed on "capitalism". Mr. Jackson seems to have gotten many things right but he errs if he is actually equating this "neo-liberalism" with capitalism. He should read his Adam Smith. They are not even remotely the same things. Fractional-reserve banking and the Federal Reserve are not "capitalism", they represent Keynesianism. And yes, even though government policies were behind many of their actions, they still do deserve a good bit of the blame. Their very existence is "anti-capitalism".

      Wall Street is NOT an example of "capitalism at its finest". Not even close. It is no more than a government-endorsed casino. Complete with the house advantage. And the so-called "big content" companies, represented by the RIAA, MPAA and other organizations, are in fact excellent examples of Fascist philosophy, not examples of capitalism at all, good or bad.

    8. Re:OWS: Obama Wasn't reSponsible by jkauzlar · · Score: 1

      You must have lost the TCP packet from the review that contained the following text:

      The author, Ross Jackson, identifies who and what is responsible for the 2008 financial meltdown and many other problems in society. Most prominent are a seriously-flawed "neo-liberal economic philosophy" and the political-elite class which sponsors that philosophy for self-interested reasons at the expense of the rest of us.

      By 'political-elite class', I'm guessing he's referring to politicians/officials in the Obama/Bush administrations and congress that allowed what happened to happen. I don't think there's any mistake on the part of the left or the occupy movement about the gov't's complicity in all this, and the author is certainly aware.

      Regardless of the question you're asking, more gatekeepers and middlemen are not the answer. That applies to governments as well as corporations.

      This book might help you think more deeply about this statement.

    9. Re:OWS: Obama Wasn't reSponsible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, what? The beginning of Obama's term couldn't possibly be a clearer example of a problem that did not start with the incoming politician. The economic situation was already burning down for months when Bush handed over the political football. The thing that people could plausibly complain about is Obama's policy of bailing out major corporations with taxpayer money in an effort to slow the collapse. But guess what -- that policy and process also started at the end of Bush's term and was carried over into the start of Obama's, to the point that many of the key economic appointees involved in running that response were kept on between the administrations to try to smooth things over. The only logical complaint would be that Obama should have changed course and done it completely differently. There you could have a legitimate argument. But as the trigger for the crisis or how deep it went? No fricking way. That was already well established by changes in regulations and policy years before -- the lax controls on all these elaborate financial instruments, and failure to heed the warnings about the housing market. It all came to a head in the last few months of Bush's term. Blaming Obama is like blaming the guy for not putting out the fire fast enough when Bush turned over the keys to a house already in flames. Go ahead and blame him for that, but responses to an emergency are always going to be challenging. I guess if it happens again we can always see what new ideas people will come up with, and hope that the new politicians want to run an experiment to see if they can do any better than what was already tried. Perhaps they'll be gamblers. Maybe the house will burn to the ground, or maybe they'll manage to save more of it.

    10. Re:OWS: Obama Wasn't reSponsible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's been doing something worse than not paying attention: he's been paying selective, partisan attention.

    11. Re:OWS: Obama Wasn't reSponsible by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Blaming Obama is like blaming the guy for not putting out the fire fast enough when Bush turned over the keys to a house already in flames.

      And yet, we continue to ignore the wanton boys playing with matches in the backrooms.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  4. Oil will run out, but energy will not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We will not run out of energy until the Sun expands and swallows the Earth. Oil will run out, but by then, long before then, solar, wind, and geothermal will replace it. We don't have to go back to the stone age. Population will level off as new population's are educated. All governments need to do is get out of the way and just regulate the commons, to avoid tragedy :-P

    1. Re:Oil will run out, but energy will not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ooh, you're right, all we need is to cover the Sahara with solar panels, at least that's what I keep hearing will power all of Europe. I'm sure they'll spring up overnight when we need them. Regardless, I'll go stockpile all the stuff we'll need:

      1) Enough rare earths to make them... oops

      Fabulous plan, there, man. You might want to rethink your notion that solar tractors, etc. will suddenly spring up to feed you when oil gets hideously expensive. If you can afford food when that happens it'll only be because the next 10 people are starving.

    2. Re:Oil will run out, but energy will not by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Oil will run out

      It will never completely run out, although it will eventually become uneconomical except for niche uses. For example, it's possible to convert sea water into jet fuel and other hydrocarbons through complex and energy intensive chemical reactions and it's possible to power these reactions with the sunlight that falls on the earth each day. Nobody does this right now because it's not cost effective. However, there's a big difference between rare and expensive hydrocarbons and none at all. My guess is that long before hydrocarbons become that expensive mankind will be well motivated to find ways of producing them artificially.

  5. Review Bias? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Why does this book report read like OWS propaganda?

    1. Re:Review Bias? by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      It reads more like Kim Stanley Robinson's Blue Mars. Just as boring and neo-Marxist, by the looks of it.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:Review Bias? by Shimbo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It was so one-sided there seemed to be no point actually reading it through; I wouldn't learn whether the book was worth reading or not. All I took away was "this book is popular with people with limited critical thinking skills", which is hardly the best advertizement.

  6. Programmers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Programmers haven't had it this good since the dot com days, unemployment is low and pay is high.

    I think this is the wrong audience of construction workers.

  7. Very different groups lumped together in summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    the Tea Partiers, the 99%-ers

    /

    Please do not lump these two groups together. While I have seen a few rational 99 percenters, most seem to be demanding a more interventionist government. In effect they yell "Nothing is working, give us more of the same!". At least most of the tea partiers have realized government is the problem. And to any who counter that the rich purchasing control of the government is the problem, realize that any government large enough (powerful enough) to be worth buying off will be bought off.

  8. This could become a WSJ best seller by hguorbray · · Score: 2

    and it probably still wouldn't drive any measurable change...but one can always hope

    because the powers that be combine appeal of lasissez-faire capitalism with the fear of losing what little status quo remains to pit us all against each other through the tactics of divide and conquer

    as elrous0 says above -there will have to be some painful changes and some ugly battles before things will improve for most people on earth an most of us are not yet willing to make them -and I'm afraid I am probably among them. Maybe your children will see enough of what has been lost and can rise up before it is too late...

    -I'm just sayin'

    1. Re:This could become a WSJ best seller by Urban+Nightmare · · Score: 1

      I'm sure my children won't see this. Even though I don't buy them every new laptop or iPad that comes out and try to teach them that material goods are not a statement or worth. They see all their friends with the latest gadget and they want it to. Maybe someday they may see why we don't have cable or satellite and every fancy thing but until then I'm the bad guy because I don't want to spend the money on it. Even more probable is when they get out in to the work force they will just buy all that crap themselves and be happy. They won't have money to retire or for medical care but who cares... They will have their iPad.

  9. Re:They're nothing but by FudRucker · · Score: 1, Insightful

    it is a shame isn't it!!?

    http://i.imgur.com/VJrE5.jpg

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  10. Re:Very different groups lumped together in summar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Profit motive is the problem.

    As long as people will only work enough to make themselves and their close friends filthy rich, a short-term goal, instead of out of a sense of value for their community, we're all fucked.

  11. Utopian by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This book falls into a long-standing category of works called "utopian," in which the author creates a model perfect world but totally fails to explain how to get from here to there (suggested reading: "Socialism, Scientific and Utopian" by F. Engels). Pass laws? But it's the very "political elite" he condemns that makes the laws. And the idea that the mass of ordinary people, who are the ones who suffer under the existing system, should have to live *worse* in order to make the world *better* is just incorrect. Many of us are already living worse--pay cuts, job losses, cuts in all kinds of social spending (and it's going to get worse) and how has that benefitted us or the world? Raise oil prices? What effect will that have besides making the owners of Exxon even richer? Without doing away with the dictatorship of capital all of this is just spitting into the wind.

    1. Re:Utopian by PhotoJim · · Score: 1

      The US can't unilaterally increase oil prices unless it military destroys oil production capacity, which seems a little self-defeating. The only way it could act, practically speaking, is to increase taxes on fossil fuels. That money wouldn't go to the oil industry - it would go wherever government wanted it to go; research into better energy sources, road construction, income tax reductions, whatever Americans decide is most important.

      As for laws, you're right and I have no easy solution for this. The lobby groups in the US have a lot of power and it would take a huge undertaking by the average American to yell louder than the special interest groups do.

  12. Wow-I am on the wrong website by shoottothrill · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I was looking for stuff that matters. Not this socialist dribble that seems to be dominating the "news for nerds."

    1. Re:Wow-I am on the wrong website by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      I was looking for stuff that matters. Not this socialist dribble that seems to be dominating the "news for nerds."

      Aw, hell, that ain't socialist - THIS is socialist!

      There is no form of government more dedicated to socialism that a constitutional republic... Well, I guess a constitutional republic with democratically elected leaders, maybe, but who's crazy enough to do that??

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:Wow-I am on the wrong website by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was looking for stuff that matters. Not this socialist dribble

      This is the "Occupy Sony" website. Daily Kos is three doors down take a left.

    3. Re:Wow-I am on the wrong website by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was looking for stuff that matters. Not this socialist dribble that seems to be dominating the "news for nerds."

      Please don't slander socialists by associating us with the Occupy movement.

    4. Re:Wow-I am on the wrong website by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 2

      Aw, hell, that ain't socialist - THIS is socialist!

      You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

      Please list all the "socialist" parts of the Constitution and explain how they are socialist.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    5. Re:Wow-I am on the wrong website by trout007 · · Score: 1

      If you want to be an economic nerd you only have to read this book. It's long but a great logical explanation of economics with no BS.

      mises.org/books/mespm.pdf

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    6. Re:Wow-I am on the wrong website by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my experience, if you're the type that uses the word 'socialist' to denigrate ideas you don't agree with, you a) are probably ignorant of the definition of the word 'socialism' and b) probably aren't worth talking to, because you'd rather call names than have an actual discussion.

      So in the light of b) I'd say go find a different site if this one isn't to your liking. You won't be missed. Not simply because you disagree with me, but because you're not worth talking to.

    7. Re:Wow-I am on the wrong website by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

      Socialism has no distinct, single definition, according to the reference you provided (first paragraph, second sentence).

      I don't think you know what you think you know.

      Please list all the "socialist" parts of the Constitution and explain how they are socialist.

      One need look no farther than the preamble:

      We the People [i.e., society] of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union [i.e. state], establish Justice [i.e. social equality], insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare [nudge nudge}, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

      Not to mention the social equalizer known commonly as the Bill of Rights. I could go on, but if you don't understand where I'm coming from at this point, you're not going to.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    8. Re:Wow-I am on the wrong website by SteelAngel · · Score: 1

      I would beg to differ in the sense that according to the majority opinion in Jacobson vs. Massachusetts (1905):

      "Although that preamble indicates the general purposes for which the people ordained and established the Constitution, it has never been regarded as the source of any substantive power conferred on the government of the United States, or on any of its departments. Such powers embrace only those expressly granted in the body of the Constitution, and such as may be implied from those so granted."

      Therefore, please do not assume that the wordsmithing of the preamble means anything in a legal sense as to the duties of government. Please look into the Constitution proper to determine whether it defines a 'socialist' government.

    9. Re:Wow-I am on the wrong website by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      So, in other words, "socialist" has no meaning at all and thus can mean anything you want it to be. Convenient.

      The "General Welfare" of society, not of each individual person. Also, you didn't explain in detail, you simply state an unsupported claim.

      Seeing as all the powers of the federal government are set out in the articles, please explain in detail how the powers enumerated in the articles and amendments are "socialist".

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    10. Re:Wow-I am on the wrong website by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      So, in other words, "socialist" has no meaning at all and thus can mean anything you want it to be. Convenient.

      Says the person who provided the ambiguous reference they now choose to disagree with... convenient indeed.

      The "General Welfare" of society, not of each individual person

      right; and considering the base word of 'socialism' is society, not individual, I feel that validates my point.

      Seeing as all the powers of the federal government are set out in the articles, please explain in detail how the powers enumerated in the articles and amendments are "socialist".

      I already pointed out 2 areas of the Constitution (Preamble / BoR) which establish that ours is a form of socialist governance, as opposed to a monarchy or communist governance. If you can't see the forest for the trees at this point, nothing I say is going to keep you from walking smack into a redwood.

      Of course, as you seem to believe yourself the expert on the topic, how about you explain to me how a constitutional republic with democratically elected leadership is not socialism, and if not socialism than what is it?

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    11. Re:Wow-I am on the wrong website by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      What part of "Explain in detail" did you not understand?

      You pointed to two part, one of which is not in the parts that describe the powers of the government and at no point did you explain how they create a socialist government.

      Please explain how the bill of rights provides "social ownership and control of the means of production and cooperative management of the economy, and a political philosophy advocating such a system".

      How about Amendment 10, which limits the federal government to those listed in the Constitution?

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  13. which is why Washington hated the Tea Party by Shivetya · · Score: 4, Interesting

    both the RNC and DNC hated it, oh the RNC liked it for the fact it helped them win control of the House but they resented the fact that those people didn't have the decency to go away. When the RNC tried to gain control, either directly or through sycophants they kept getting rebuffed.

    That is why I found the OWS so distressing. It was a fake protest, one that the politicians could control. Nothing made this more obvious than having "unions" suddenly appear to add their voice; you notice how fast these same people vanished? When the real down and out people showed up they were scorned (the homeless and such). The OWS was needed when the previous "Tea Party" counter protests organized by unions; complete with bus loads paid for by the same; came to Washington but only trashed the place and didn't put up real numbers, nor did they have any lasting group - it all faded away as any generated for the moment organization does.

    Washington and their press sycophants are desperate to shut down or vilify any true protest to the status quo. Wall Street toes the line because they love their money and Washington politicians love the same.

    The Democrats need a true grass roots organization similar to the Tea Party to spring up. The problem is again, how can they tell when it truly from the grass roots and not manufactured. The key to knowing will be how those in power react to it and how the press reacts.

    Simple rule : If the politicians and press both lap it up then its probably not real.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:which is why Washington hated the Tea Party by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      so the tea party is genuine and OWS is artificial..... you smoking some bad dope?

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    2. Re:which is why Washington hated the Tea Party by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      To support your point, watch any of the Fox News political shows, or even just their commercials. They give air time to the "top three candidates", always leaving out Ron Paul, even though he is arguably in second place with delegate counts. Only one candidate is willing to say that he will actually cut government spending and stands for what the original TEA Party was protesting for.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  14. Re: Deregulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The US deregulated? When? Government spending and all the laws and statutes in the Federal Register has been always growing and never stops. The rate of growth might change, but it always grows.

    I take major issue with this notion that some how the US a free market. It would be more correct to call it mercantilism or proto-fascism.

    Fact is, there isn't anything remotely resembling a free market in the US. It's mixed economy. To say it's deregulated is to forget all the agencies that cover it, whether it be employment, food, drugs, stockmarkets, currency, transportation, utilities, or healthcare.

    Compiled quickly with a short search, here is a short list:
    Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (Freddie Mac)
    Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae)
    Federal Housing Finance Agency
    Student Loan Marketing Association (Sallie Mae)
    US Dept of Housing and Urban Development (HUD)
    Import Export Bank
    US Dept of Treasury, and it's dozen of so sub-offices
    US Department of Commerce
    Federal Reserve System
    Food and Drug Administration (FDA)
    US Department of Agriculture (USDA)
    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF)
    Commodity Credit Corporation (CCC)
    Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC)
    Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)
    Employment and Training Administration (ETA)
    Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
    US Dept of Energy (DOE)
    Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC)
    U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)
    US Department of Labor (DOL)
    Farm Credit Administration (FCA)
    US Dept of Transportation (DOT)
    Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)
    Federal Communications Commission (FCC)
    Federal Deposit Insurance Commission (FDIC)
    Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC)
    Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EREN)
    Federal Highway Administration (FHA)
    Federal Maritime Commission (FMC)
    Federal Railroad Administration (FRA)
    Federal Trade Commission (FTC)
    Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC)
    Transportation Security Administraion (TSA)

    And this doesn't included other, multiple layers of city, county, and state laws, codes, and regulations.

    There is ***NOTHING*** that isn't regulated in the US.

    Look, I agree with the sentiments of the OWS crowd. There's some straight scum bags out there. But wouldn't it make sense, if you create a massive apparatus, you're also creating a new power center---A power center that these scumbags can use to their own ends against everyone else? A larger regulatory state requires smart, honest people to run it. If you look at something like military contractors at the DOD or large Wall Street banks at Treasury or the Fed, you see back door scam deals left and right. And just because you elect the right guy in office once, there's no guarantee that the next guy in charge will be just as nice.

  15. Shorter summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's horseshit.

  16. Re:They're nothing but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah fuck those hippies always tearing down forests to make their concrete hippie communes. They have ruined the environment while honourable businessmen strive to preserve a balance on the planet. Before the Industrial Revolution, man's impact on nature had nearly caused the destruction of the planet.

    While I assume you're trolling, I never really thought of the poetic justice you describe: that the hippies have demonstrated on a small scale what their detractors have done on a global scale.

  17. Comrades Unite! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Comrades, the author of this book is right. We need more regulations to keep those evil capitalists from getting richer. Also we need more bureaucrats to put those regulations in practice. I mean, we all know that our well-being is directly proportional to the size of the bureaucracy. Also, in order to live better we must make ourselves poorer, voluntarily of course. We must stop pursuing material wellbeing and start living in harmony with nature.

    And another thing that is wrong with the current world order is the social class "system" that we have. We only need two social classes the ruling class (i.e politicians and bureaucrats) and regular people. And yeah, lets implement his idea of measuring peoples happiness instead of their monetary wealth. Once those enlightened bureaucrats can agree on a definition of happiness I have no doubt that our leaders can take us there.

  18. Dear God... by Nicknamename · · Score: 0

    The words... they fail.

    --
    Hitler hates pedophiles.
    1. Re:Dear God... by Nicknamename · · Score: 0

      Anarchocapitalism/Libertarianism is not good for the upper classes, which is why they never push Anarchocapitalism/Libertarianism. They push this shit instead...

      --
      Hitler hates pedophiles.
    2. Re:Dear God... by Nicknamename · · Score: 0

      The rich want a system which will protect their already-acquired wealth and stave off any potential competitors. The powerful want a system which will preserve and enhance their power. Which is exactly what hyperpolitically-correct Socialism does.

      --
      Hitler hates pedophiles.
  19. No riots. Dancing with the stars is on! by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    http://xkcd.com/1007/
    Sustainable is already boring.

    Infinite debt and economic collapse for the win!

    --
    Deleted
  20. Re:They're nothing but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    You must feel so smart and proud of yourself, posting that link on a website owned by a corporation who is out to make money. At what point do you stop being a "good corporation" and start being a conspiracy of evil plutocrats? Is Rob Malda an evil capitalist for selling out? Or do we like him, so he's not. but all the other ones are.

    Go ahead and call me an AC. I've read this website on and off for 10 years and never cared to sign up for an account - because I'm too busy doing actual work and being paid quite handsomely for it.

    Life is what you make of it - and all the class envious in these threads arent doing a damned thing to make their lives better. You just wait for the big friendly government to give you something you didn't earn. For shame.

    Unrelated, it amuses me how in 4 years we've gone from "Its Bush's fault" to "its the evil bankers/corporations/other imaginary plutocrats" fault. Because the guy in power has a D, so it CANT be his fault. Quick, someone get another demagogue!

  21. Re:Very different groups lumped together in summar by Maltheus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They both started out as protest movements against the banker bailouts, so I'd say it's entirely appropriate to be linking them together. That and I'd come across the same core group of people at both functions. Yes, their solutions are quite different. But it's the Tea Party/OWS/Arab Spring vs our crooked establishment and the apathy of their neighbors (at least in the early days before each movement fell apart). I'm sure we'll see another similar movement with a whole new name by 2013.

  22. Re:They're nothing but by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Perhaps the point is, there's a galaxy of difference between fucking up a tiny urban park (term used quite loosely), and fucking up the global economic system.

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  23. Re: Deregulation by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Informative

    Do some research into the relationship between the SEC and the banks they are supposed to regulate, then get back to me.

    Matt Taibbi's blog is a good place to start.

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  24. What about the 98.6%? by istartedi · · Score: 1, Redundant

    What about the 98.6%? We aren't billionaires. We aren't communists. We just want common sense. We're not radical. We're well-balanced, healthy centrists. The only options being presented are all burning with a deathbed fever of corporate fascism or hard-left radicalism that will leave us dying in a sweat-soaked poltical deathbed.

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
  25. Re:They're nothing but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You should have just told them to get off your lawn.

  26. Do we need a 'Neo-Marxist' term? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because "Class Warfare" and "Capitalist Society is Doomed to Fail" isn't exactly new.

  27. A main figure, a leader! A Spark! by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    Ghandi, Jesus, Buddha etc.

    Eh. Wait... That didn't work. I know. Lets try it again and see if it works this time!

    No what it needs is for people to understand the truth rather than the fantasy being sold to them by the mainstream media and start acting in their own self interest. Understand exactly how things really work and why the vested interests want them that way.

    That will only happen as the shit hits the fan btw.

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:A main figure, a leader! A Spark! by Dutchmaan · · Score: 2

      Out of morbid curiosity... whats your "truth" that people need to understand? When people use buzzwords like "mainstream media" and talk about people needing to be more selfish.. I can already smell the position your coming from.

    2. Re:A main figure, a leader! A Spark! by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

      The truth is that politicians on any side don't (and never have) work for you. They work for the people who pay them. They are pimps who sell their constituents favours.

      --
      Deleted
    3. Re:A main figure, a leader! A Spark! by Dutchmaan · · Score: 2

      So you believe that someone who "goes it alone" because that's what they believe in, automatically makes them a 'politician'... I'm with you on not trusting politicians, but I think you're off the mark when it comes to 'leaders' vs 'politicians'... The politician tries to bring the people to his will for his personal gain, while the true leader inspires people because his motives and *actions* are for the people themselves.

    4. Re:A main figure, a leader! A Spark! by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ghandi, Jesus, Buddha etc. Eh. Wait... That didn't work.

      All three of those made fairly large changes in the world around them. Please define "That didn't work."

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    5. Re:A main figure, a leader! A Spark! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They got a lot of sympathy, and a lot of arm-chair agreement, but not a lot of REAL SACRIFICE.

      If you went out and asked people if they would follow someone like that, you'd get a huge number of people saying "Yeah, they're great." And then if you follow up with telling them that they HAVE to be like that or the world will end, they'd just look at you like you're touched in the head and try to get away.

      Let's take Jesus as the example du jour. You've got a billions-strong list of followers, but how many of them have sold their homes, their cars, and their TV? The only ones that can claim to be following Jesus's example are too poor to have been able to afford a (mortgage on a) house, a car, or a TV in the first place (and it's not a sacrifice if you didn't have it in the first place). Or the extremely few people who did sell off all their stuff and are just treated like they're crazy.

  28. Visionary?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mr. Jackson is also a political-economic visionary of the highest order as shown in the second half of the book by his "break away" strategy where he sets out his alternative environmentalist paradigm. It is a new worldview emphasizing the finite reality of our natural resources, especially energy ones, and how we should alter much of what we do to comply with that reality. He argues for a new set of social values harmonious with a holistic sense of people and nature being part of one "system." The values of that system include smallness, localization, quality versus quantity, interrelationships, and long-term perspectives.

    If you read John Stuart Mill you will see that those ideas aren't exactly new . And it wouldn't surprise me if Mill got his ideas from folks from an earlier time.

  29. Malkovich. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Malkovich. Malkovich? Malkovich Malkovich!

    The conclusion of that XKCD chart always makes me think of that movie, Being John Malkovich . Fun, crazy-ass film.

  30. I disagree: framing austerity by Geof · · Score: 1

    There is truth to what you say, yet I think it's a question of framing, not of whether there are actual sacrifices.

    Many people support austerity, even though it means significant sacrifices for the majority (even as it is twinned with tax cuts for the few). You might argue this is because people do not perceive themselves as beneficiaries of government spending (see: Alaska), or because they have an aspirational view of themselves living the American dream and benefiting from tax cuts, because they believe that the pain is necessary in order to grow the economy and create jobs, because they believe current spending is unsustainable so there is no alternative, or because it is linked to their sense of patriotism or identity.

    I don't buy any of this, but my point is: people are willing to accept sacrifices. While I don't deny that people are often too much focused on what's in it for them rather than the greater good of the society or the future of their children, if they believe it is necessary, or inevitable, or ultimately for the best they wholeheartedly embrace sacrifice, even making it a point of pride.

    What the OP proposes is an agenda with long term benefits, one that is necessary if we are to avoid serious negative consequences. The sorts of arguments made for austerity could easily be made for it or something like it. Such arguments are not being presented by mainstream media - but that is for reasons of power, politics, ideology and institutional rigidity, not because it's not possible to get the American people on side. Therefore, we need to fight on the terrian of politics and communication. We cannot afford to surrender democracy, excusing ourselves because of a belief that the American people are iredeemably selfish.

  31. Re:Poor countries are poor for a reason by PhotoJim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't mean to imply that I support high taxes carte blanche... I don't. However, I do have to point out that there are countries with high taxes and yet high standards of living, peace and very good levels of procedural justice. Countries like Sweden, Finland, and Denmark come to mind.

    I think this idea that government is inherently evil and can't do anything productive is rather sad. Perhaps it's true in the US, which would be more of a commentary on the flaws of American democracy than on government in general, but there are countries where governments are, by American standards, very interventionists and yet there are high levels of happiness among the nation's population, along with a high standard of living and high levels of individual freedom.

    This rigid debate about the evils of tax increases in the US reminds me of what we went through here in Saskatchewan in the mid-1990s. The economy here was terrible. We were in debt up to our eyeballs as a province and international banks were telling us that we were not far from being in a position where acquiring loans to finance future debt was going to be a difficult proposition. Our credit rating had been downgraded significantly. The government of the day severely reduced spending and significantly increased taxes. Roads got neglected, schools got overcrowded, and in general, it really sucked to be here for awhile. But do you know what happened? The provincial debt got significantly reduced. That permitted a gradual reduction of taxes. That allowed the economy to improve - slowly at first, very quickly later - and now we are one of the two strongest provinces in Canada economically, with very reasonable levels of debt a fraction of what it once was, and with a real hope of being retired completely in a few years.

    Fix the US political system so that political actors act for the benefit of the nation and its citizens instead of special interest groups, and think with a mind toward the future. This petty bickering and inflexibility are not only increasingly making the US a laughingstock in the international scene, they are seriously damaging the US's ability to have a strong economy. Yes, that may mean a few years of significantly higher taxes, but the dividends in the long run would be huge.

  32. 99% wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this book is about one thing, making it from the 99% to the 1% by selling a lot of copies. take a look at self-help-books. the only one these are going the help is the author. by getting rich.

  33. Doesn't conform to the review guidelines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Writing a Slashdot review should be fun -- and reading it should be, too. Write conversationally but seriously, as you might in a topical letter to an acquaintance who's asked you to send your impressions of a book. At the same time, please be sure to write a review, not just a summary. Do explain the content of the book, but don't stop there: the whole point of a review is to offer insight on a book's worth, not just whether it has a chapter on interfacing with MySQL. Compare it to other books, explain whether this one met your expectations, criticize, parse."

    Of course, that's no problem, because when you are a servant of the Global Socialist Class Warfare Jihad for Humanity, it's about fighting the good fight, not following rules.

  34. "not sufficient to affect change" by wild_berry · · Score: 1

    "Being intellectually sound, however, is not sufficient to affect change"

    Can we have the argument about affect and effect here? I would have used 'effect change' here, unless OP means that change, in some way, is to be altered.

    Also, there an enormous issue about how invested we all are in the existing system, with jobs and housing provided by it. That makes it very costly to change - but it's quite costly to stay paying a mortgage which supports the lifestyles of the people who sold created and sold CDOs and which is also rescuing the present situation.

  35. Re: Deregulation by afabbro · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You cannot seriously consider Rolling Stone a source of anything more than dopehead diatribes. Dude, it's Rolling Stone - they were marginally relevant to the 70s music scene. Marginally. Since then they've been nothing but a venting platform for drug-addled baby boomers who refuse to shut up.

    --
    Advice: on VPS providers
  36. I Never Saw... by flyneye · · Score: 1

    So many Anonymous Cowards.
    O.K. I'll knock an oddball out into left field.I'll even stick my name to it.
    We have scientists telling us we aren't smart enough for democracy in yesterdays story.
    We hate everything about our governments and circumstances is pretty global.
    REVOLT! Just everywhere! Start over. Let natural selection take the best of us forward. We're overpopulated, polluted and full of ignorant, corrupt, irritating people and hassles. Let's just pick a day and fight it out with the power worldwide and once the carnage is over, the strong survive and we can start over a little smarter for wear and tear. Hell, we even have history as an example, and the wreckage of the previous era to rebuild with.

    Sometimes, doesn't it just seem like the only sane thing to do is burn it all down and start again?
    There is no fixing, repairing or tolerating the present, so wtf to do from this perspective?
    O.K. This is "Asking Slashdot"

    --
    *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
  37. What sacrifices? by twoallbeefpatties · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Over the past three decades, the masses have had declining wages. The masses have seen fewer employers offering health and retirement benefits. The masses have seen explosive growth in the cost of education, which was supposed to be the method by which they bettered themselves. The masses suffered unemployment and foreclosure as the result of the last economic collapse.

    I think a lot of the masses, which have already lost quite a bit, are starting to ask, "When are the controllers going to start sacrificing as much as we have?"

    You said, "...not one single President or politician has asked *any* American to sacrifice *anything* in over 40 years." Obama suggested that the tax rates for the top earners go back to the place where they were ten years ago, and he was branded a job-killer and capitalism-hater. Maybe it's not the masses that are your problem here.

    --
    Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
  38. Re:Poor countries are poor for a reason by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

    Because of course the Scandinavian countries are well known for the intense levels of poverty due to their high taxes.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  39. Re: Deregulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's exactly my point.

    As I said in my original post: "if you create a massive apparatus, you're also creating a new power center---A power center that these scumbags can use to their own ends against everyone else"

    If you want to regulate more, go ahead, but you're living in a fantasy world if you think that the regulators themselves won't be for sale.

  40. I think you meant to say by publiclurker · · Score: 1

    That right wing nut jobs attribute the positives as being accomplished despite their best attempts at throwing the president under the back of the bus. then again, literacy is probably one of those liberal elite tings you don't believe in.

  41. Well, that settles it... not chance in hell by erroneus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    emphasizing "sustainability" and "development" versus simple "unlimited growth."

    You know? I've been saying that for close to 10 years... that there is something mathematically wrong with using "growth" as a metric of success. But at a company I once worked for, we read "From good to great" and listened to our C-level executives came back from business conventions saying things like "if you're not growing, then you're dying." The logical failure in these ideas were all too plain for me to see.

    There's a whole lot of crazy and stupid in our society from the very top to the very bottom. People think drugs are a good idea for helping them to feel better at all levels, for example. But it's pretty much everywhere you look where conventional wisdom which our grandfathers lived under successfully after surviving the great depression is being cast aside for "new ideas" which are just short-sightednees and greed in shiny wrapping paper. It's like saying "hey! eat all the candy you want! you're going to feel great and be happy! It's all that matters in life!" Forget about getting diabetes, getting your feet cut off and bieng unable to take care of your children because of your new disability.

    Only one thing will cause a turn-around. Things will have to get bad on a global scale and pretty much apocalyptic before things can even come close to turning around. The ruiners of the world are still in charge and will not stop to think that they are dooming themselves as much as the rest of us even though they won't feel it until a much larger amount of us will have died from it and their first symptoms will be "unable to get enough servants to do their work for them."

    1. Re:Well, that settles it... not chance in hell by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      You know? I've been saying that for close to 10 years... that there is something mathematically wrong with using "growth" as a metric of success. But at a company I once worked for, we read "From good to great" and listened to our C-level executives came back from business conventions saying things like "if you're not growing, then you're dying." The logical failure in these ideas were all too plain for me to see.

      THIS. If nothing else this is an aspect of the economy that needs to be addressed. Perpetual growth is unsustainable and the only thing driving it is the stock market. Fix this problem to stop the economy from over-revving itself to death and go from there.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  42. What us This Popularly Accessible Economics Book? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A few years ago I stumbled across un unusually lucidly written book that explained complex economic theory to regular people, in much the same way as I have recently managed to find a way to explain to my mother what us coders do despite my having struggled for sixteen solid years not to explain what a folder is, but to do so without her flying into a panic then fleeing in terror from the room.

    My mother is a total nutcase about keeping her immaculate little condo neat and tidy. Despite being only 1200 square feet, I shit you not that she has eight different vacuum cleaners.

    Over the years I've often puzzled over the slow accumulation of what recently became hundreds of icons scattered randomly all over her desktop. I figured all that untidiness must cause her no end of worry so not long age I showed her the Mac OSX Finders Arrange by Name menu.

    "Thats nice. But how do I put them all back where they were?"

    Holy Mother of G-d!

    "Why do you want to put them all back Mom? We both know how much you loathe untidiness."

    I damn near pissed my pants when she told me that she kept all of her most crucially important documents arranged into little piles on her desktop!

    I smiled gently. "There's a better way to do that Mom. Here, ket me show you how to create a folder." The next time I visited there were ten or so fokders neatly arranged on her desktop.

    No imagine you were a coder who on two different occasions actually worked at Apple and I myself was your technophobic Mother, only you just realized that my understanding of Economics was about insightful as my mothers insight into how to get full value from an iMac she blew a couple grand on.

    The book I seek was meant for people just like me. I do recognize that wiser heads than mine must be at the Economic helm, but for the life of me nothing that Economists do or say ever makes a damn bit of sense to me.

    Consider that the subprime crisis did not affect Texas because Texan banking regulations have never permitted subprime loans, and that myth if the grief that bankers give to most Americans simply does not occur in Nirth Dakota because North Dakota has a bank that's run by the state government.

    Given that the simplest fool could have foreseen the subprime crisis, why didn't the Federal Reserve or the banking regulators in every state other than Texas? Given that the North Dakota State-Operated Bank solves many of the problems faced there much more reliably and effortlessly, why did not every state in the Union establish it's own bank decades ago.

    The book was light green in color, about five by eight inches, and is known in the business as a Trade Paper, that us a good quality paperback.

    I made a huge mistake nit to have knocked over a liquor store at gunpoint so I could purchase that book while I still knew where to find it. Just by casually skipping around in that book I couldveasily see how many of the entire world's problems could be solved were mire if us to read that book.

  43. jesus CHRIST by Iamthecheese · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I opened these comments to read insightful posts refuting and supporting the arguments in the book with logic and evidence. I found 100 posts of partisan political bickering without a shred of useful content.

    Today I am ashamed to be part of Slashdot.

    --
    If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    1. Re:jesus CHRIST by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      I opened these comments to read insightful posts refuting and supporting the arguments in the book with logic and evidence. I found 100 posts of partisan political bickering without a shred of useful content. Today I am ashamed to be part of Slashdot.

      Did you read the summary first? I came here looking to see where the slashdot zeitgeist went with this one. I have noticed that on topics like this they tend to be skewed either very much towards expanding government power or towards reducing it. This one seems to actually fall somewhere in the middle. although in this case it appears that that is because the author of the book review (and possibly of the book as well) has managed to support the parts from either side that the sides on slashdot, for the most part, fail to support.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:jesus CHRIST by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It's not that bad for an open forum. Consider this post, or this informative post, then compare them with the comments on this movie. No comparison.

      If you want more reviews, as in depth as the summary, you'll have to wait until some people actually get a chance to read it. Most of us have never even heard of it before today, so all we can talk about is the summary. And if you really want to get something out of productive discussion about the book, you better read it yourself first.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  44. Re:They're nothing but by FudRucker · · Score: 1

    the Tea Party did not threaten the status quo, they just wanted lower taxes, everybody wants lower taxes including those criminals on wallstreet, but when a protest wants to actually change something like a system that makes the rich richer and the poor poorer then there is going to be arrests.

    sheesh dont you people get it? i doubt some of you will never get it, not now, not ever, you'll more than likely die of old age as clueless as you were when you were born

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  45. Re:Why is this on Slashdot? by Microlith · · Score: 2

    What would you prefer, something that had a hint of the Koch brothers? Maybe a dash of Rupert Murdoch for taste?

  46. Re:Poor countries are poor for a reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Increasing taxes does not adjust the incentives of bureaucrats and other government employees, including those elected, to act in a manner that benefits the entire group.

    Increasing taxes does increase the magnitude of the benefit lobbying results in, due to more funding = more effective regulatory capture.

    None of these "features" of government are net positive for whatever society is held as subject.

  47. Re:Very different groups lumped together in summar by scot4875 · · Score: 1

    In effect they yell "Nothing is working, give us more of the same!"

    Yeah, and on the other side we have morons saying "Nothing is working, don't change anything!"

    --Jeremy

    --
    Jesus was a liberal
  48. Re:Very different groups lumped together in summar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I can't figure out why the Occupy movement and the Tea Party movement didn't converge on the one thing that their followers, and practically everybody else that has any sympathy for either movement, agree on: that there is too much fricking money pouring into political parties and controlling the democratic process. It doesn't matter if we're talking corporate, union, or other organizational money. We all know millions of dollars buys a lot of votes. Why didn't somebody suggest a constitutional amendment limiting campaign donations to personal donations only, putting a cap on those, and fixing the root of half the political problems in democracy today?

  49. Re:yeah by Un+pobre+guey · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Because there is no such thing as "real capitalism." "Capitalism" is a theme, an approach, an overarching paradigm. It is not a specific recipe or architecture. Many things can be called Capitalism and yet differ drastically among themselves.

  50. What will happen if these ideas do gain traction by SixAndFiftyThree · · Score: 1
  51. Re: Deregulation by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

    So, the government organization that is supposed to regulate the banks has been taken over by the big banks and your solution is more government regulation? I ask this question because your phrasing seems to imply that your post counters the OP in some way, when in fact you demonstrate his point. His point is that government regulatory agencies get subverted by the big players and end up serving their purposes every time and you counter that with an example that purports that a government organization has been subverted to serve the purposes of the corporations it was created to regulate.

    --
    The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  52. Re:They're nothing but by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    What has a park full of "protesters" got to do with fucking up the global economy? It was a bunch of career protesters who do nothing more than jump on the bandwagon of any protest they can find so they can get some attention while living off government benefits. Probably claiming accomodation suppliments while not paying rent camping in the park too... which is nothing short of fraud.

  53. Re:They're nothing but by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    I agree, a protest in wall street was probably a good idea.

    I disagree that a "protest" in every major city of every country on the planet is a good idea. I also wouldn't be complaining if they didnt set up tents and they packed up their shit every night and went home. The local governments wouldn't have been so pissed off either, so court orders and police wouldn't be used to evict them.

  54. Say what? by DerekLyons · · Score: 0

    "I have never heard before of Mr.Jackson, but he is bound to be (or at least should be) hailed as a top-notch public intellectual."

    Oh sure, he'll be so hailed - but not by anyone I'd be pleased to be recognized by. He, and the author of the review, sound like tinfoil hat Marxists.

  55. Re: Deregulation by Fned · · Score: 3

    You cannot seriously consider Rolling Stone a source of anything more than dopehead diatribes.

    Matt Taibbi. Your argument is invalid.

  56. Re:They're nothing but by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

    Go ahead and call me an AC. I've read this website on and off for 10 years and never cared to sign up for an account - because I'm too busy doing actual work and being paid quite handsomely for it.

    Too busy to sign up, and yet not to busy to read and to post? You're full of bullshit like the rest of your Republican wannabe rich types.

  57. Re:Poor countries are poor for a reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sweden, Finland, and Denmark all have tiny populations - the largest has a population only slightly larger than that of New York CITY... The same policies that work for a monolithic culture of 9 million will probably not work for a diverse nation of 300 million.

  58. Not that surprising by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    Slashdot seems to be inhabited by a non trivial number of what I call communist anarchists for lack of a better term. Now I know that is contradictory, but that's the point is they seem to hold mutually contradictory views.

    At times, they are anti-government to the point of being anarchist. Whenever the government comes down on something they like, for example the lulzsec guy or Bradley Manning, they get up in arms and say the government should butt out, leave people alone, is being evil big brother, etc, etc. They very much seem to have an attitude that government should be very uninvolved, if even extant. Basic extreme libertarian or anarchist position: That people should be left to their own ends and government should be limited, or eliminated.

    However at other times they are extremely socialist, even communist. They want the government to take care of them, or crack down on those they don't like. For example with the banks et al. in the financial crisis they don't want justice, they want punishment. They want the government to come and and crack down on them Dzerzhinsky style. Doesn't matter that what they did was legal, it hurt The People and so they must be made to pay an extremely high cost. That is very communist in attitude. In theory the government should own and control everything, and act at all times as an agent of the people. Everyone should be taken care of by the government, no matter what.

    Of course the two positions are fundamentally opposed. You can't reconcile them. So what you really have are people who want to be the dictator's kid. They want to have those they don't like punished, perhaps even arbitrarily and capriciously, and those they do like shielded from any punishment. They want the government to care for them but not have to pay for it, and so on.

    Hence we get a lot of stupid shit posted for that.

    1. Re:Not that surprising by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      not a contradiction, just a lack of understanding of communism on your part.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    2. Re:Not that surprising by Locando · · Score: 0

      A lack of understanding of anarchism as well.

    3. Re:Not that surprising by SteelAngel · · Score: 1

      I would go so far as to say that there are few people who have a wholly self-consistent set of values. However, it's not the lack of understanding of communism or anarchism which is to blame. It's that those who style themselves communists or anarchists tend to ignore the history of their movements in their drive toward some sort of obscene ideological purity. In so doing, they end up contorting themselves in rhetorical knots, or exemplifying congnitive dissonance to an extreme degree.

      I am reminded of the OWS protestor who was featured on the Daily Show 11/16/11: (para).

      Reporter (Samantha Bee): So you want everyone to have an iPad?

      Protestor: Yes. I believe they should have access to the technology.

      Reporter: So you would share your iPad with those people who don't have them?

      Protestor: No. I don't believe in private property, but this is my personal property.

    4. Re:Not that surprising by Magius_AR · · Score: 1
      Here's another good one: http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/07/us/michigan-lottery-winner/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1

      Asked if she had the right to the public assistance money, Clayton answered, "I kind of do. I have no income, and I have bills to pay. I have two houses."

    5. Re:Not that surprising by Locando · · Score: 0

      I'm no Marxist, but that quote doesn't seem inconsistent with what Marx talked about in the Communist Manifesto.

  59. I see logicall fallacy here by S3D · · Score: 1

    unending growth is unsustainable and a lie.

    because of finite natural resources. Author mix up material output and economical growth. Economical growth don't have necessary be material, and could be increase in consumption of intellectual/informational product, which, at least in theory could be sustained while consumption of natural resources decreasing. Even growth in quality of life don't necessary have to be supported with increase of natural resources exploitation. Technological breakthrough and radical cultural changes can (not necessary of cause, but that is possibility) sustain growth in quality of life with decrease of exploitation of natural resources. Example: such radical increase in quality of life as stop forcing adult females wearing burka does not require increase in material resource consumption. Failure to see such an obvious error make me doubt quality of the rest of the book, though it could be failure of reviewer of cause.

  60. Don't overlook Zeitgeist: Moving Forward by detritus. · · Score: 1

    I'd recommend that people check out is Zeitgeist: Moving Forward. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
    Unlike the earlier films, this focuses less on conspiracies and all on solid facts and reiterates many of the ideas in this book.

  61. Re:Poor countries are poor for a reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You could start by scrapping that "winner-takes-all"-election practice and get a representative democracy instead. Having only 2 relevant parties in a democracy polarizes your country in the "Gun-toting-hillbilly-AMERICA-FUCK-YEAH!-republican" and the "Communist-hightaxing-windmill-hippie", and it destroys any kind of relevant discussion since people will simply deride the other side as such.

    Then again, the above will never happen because the traditionalists will start drumming patriotism and constitution-speak.

    America is one of those countries that are "too big to change".

  62. He missed the obvious... by johnlcallaway · · Score: 1

    Sure .. this world can't continue to go on it's current course forever. And it would be wonderful if we all could join hands and sing kumbaya around the campfire, get along, and live in a purely socialistic state where we each of according to our needs, and give according to our abilities. When he works out how to get around that little human nature thing that prevents it, then maybe his ideas will have merit.

    Which is why space travel is inevitable for the survival of our species. Through the ages, humans have used up the areas they live in, and some of the greatest advances were realized when a few packed up and moved to new areas. Usually, they just wiped out or enslaved the inhabitants and took over. But eventually, great civilizations rose where nomadic, stagnant tribes that had learned to live on renewable resources had flourished.

    Whine if you will about the 'evils' of capitalism, but it has only been the desire to have more that has enabled us to have our current batch of high-tech toys. The United States might still be the land of horse-drawn travois if it hadn't been for the spirit of capitalism. I'm sure some romantic few will nod and dream of those days, but I like having a very possible opportunity to live into my 80s instead of having a high chance of dying a horrible death due to diarrhea as a small child.

    As we reach out to the space beyond Earth, we will discover new riches which will continue to allow us to grow and prosper.

    And continue to be able to purchase that new iPad simply because we want one, not because we need it.

    --
    I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
  63. Mod parent wrong by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

    Amazingly, jobness is also at a 4 year low (number of people who have jobs)

    Reposting:

    The number of people in employment has been consistently rising for at least the last year.

    http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

    --
    With the first link, the chain is forged.
  64. Re: Deregulation by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1
    tl:dr. Mea culpa and all that.

    So, the government organization that is supposed to regulate the banks has been taken over by the big banks and your solution is more government regulation?

    No, my solution is to drag the corrupt out into the streets and publicly execute them to serve as an example for others. But then again, I'm known to be a bit despotic... in a good way :)

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  65. Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    0 Nothing Wild -
    1 Shared Anarchism (Allows Possessions) - No money
    2 Owned Mutualism / Full welfare state (Adds trade and most likely money) - Expenditure used to measure wealth
    3 Rented Capitalism / Communism (Money is the root of all evil. Here begins evil) - Income used to measure wealth
    4 Derived "" Anyone not understanding or not supporting derivative will likely be poor

  66. A modest proposal by hoboroadie · · Score: 1

    I do not believe that the Welfare Queens (The Federal Reserve and their cronies) are entitled, as you say. I think that I, on the other hand, as an American Citizen, am entitled to my share of all the "quantitative easing" that occurs in my lifetime, as every other man, woman, and child who can claim ownership of my government is as well.
    Every time the economy "expands", I expect a credit to my account or a check in my mail.
    The "Gold Standard" candidate has my vote, only because he recognises the criminality of the system all the rest of you are supporting, but no one is addressing the fact that the system is built to fail.

    --
    They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
  67. Re:Imminent collapse by hoboroadie · · Score: 1

    History tells me that the survivors are the ones who escape into the bush while everyone else defends what's theirs.
    Globalization is screwing this option in the ass.

    --
    They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
  68. Re:Growth by hoboroadie · · Score: 1

    Ambition is the root of the problem. If society understood this, laws could be written to prevent the destruction of the commons, and actual sustainability could be implemented. The system is bent to suit the wants/needs of the worst of the greedy motherfuckers so it doesn't work for anyone else at this time.

    --
    They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
  69. Re: Deregulation by SteelAngel · · Score: 1

    Matt Taibbi is a misogynist idiot. That the objects of his ire are Republican women does not make his anti-female remarks acceptable.

  70. There is no 99% by DedTV · · Score: 1

    All those Tea partiers, Occupy protesters etc and the like are useless and clueless.

    There's a bunch of them in my area and I went to one of their little meetings plastered with "We are the 99%" posters all over the place. It was an hour of them first bashing the Republicans and Democrats followed by another hour of them debating which one they should vote for.
    I asked some of them why they'd vote for either one when they spent an hour accusing both of being in the pocket of lobbyists and corporate Super Pacs and don't instead back a 3rd party candidate. The answer was always the same "A 3rd party candidate couldn't win and our vote would be wasted if we backed them."
    The scientists are right. People aren't smart enough for Democracy.

  71. Re:Very different groups lumped together in summar by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

    Yeah, and on the other side we have morons saying "Nothing is working, don't change anything!"

    Actually, it's "Nothing is working, stop what you're doing"

  72. An end to terrestrial civilization by Baldrson · · Score: 1
    Eusocial species are ecologically dominant. Civilizations are eusocial creatures that utilize individual humans as components by mutilating their individual autonomy. If you really want a humane way to stop "humanity" from destroying the planet, you have to come up with an alternative to civilization that appeals to human nature and that guarantees civilization cannot re-emerge in the biosphere.

    A single rule will suffice: Anyone who is challenged to a "natural duel" and refuses to accept the challenge is executed.

    "Natural duel" is the appeal of last resort in dispute processing between males of virtually all sexual species. Humans differ only in the way they, as individuals, relate to the natural environment, and there must be rules that recognize those differences:

    The "natural duel" between humans must abide by the following rules:

    • Takes place in a natural, not civil, setting.
    • The area of combat must be large and varied enough to allow strategy and intelligence to counter-balance brute force.
    • The combatants enter from opposite sides of the area of combat.
    • Weapons or tools should be chosen to be simple enough that an individual can and generally will fabricate them for themselves from natural resources directly available to them.
    • No one is allowed in the area of combat nor to observe what goes on.
    • At most one individual is allowed to survive the combat before being allowed to leave the combat area.
  73. Yeah, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's the point of posting AC if one can't Godwin the thread?

  74. Re:They're nothing but by Shotgun · · Score: 1

    The want lower taxes, and they were willing to cut spending to get them. That was very much a threat to the status quo which derives fortunes from directing the spending.

    --
    Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
    Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  75. Re:Poor countries are poor for a reason by Shotgun · · Score: 1

    I think this requires a bit more explanation.

    The reason it doesn't work for a diverse nation is because the people given charge of directing the ridiculously large sums of money have no emotional ties to the people paying the taxes. Note the "insider trading" scandal where Congressmen have their pages running to buy/sell stocks in the companies that they are passing legislation on. Move all that monetary control back to the states, and there is more accountability.

    --
    Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
    Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  76. Re:Very different groups lumped together in summar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Uh, the Occupy movement did suggest that. It was possibly their main policy recommendation. I would be somewhat surprised if the Tea Party didn't, although their methods are more along the lines of lowering government funding so the government is so small that can't mess up anything important. (A poor plan IMHO, but it sorta makes sense at first glance.)

  77. The Light Bulb Conspiracy by luk3Z · · Score: 0
    --
    Recipes for USA bankrupt - http://tinypaste.com/0d66f dd = dollar deluge (printed in the infinity)