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Edward Teller: Father of the Hydrogen Bomb

pigrabbitbear writes "Edward Teller, the father of the hydrogen bomb, had a thing for nuclear bombs. He wanted them bigger, smaller, faster, used in ways that no one had thought of before or since, and always more of them. He suffered no fools, and though he would be more vilified than any other American scientist in the 20th century, he always dismissed his critics as lacking in common sense or patriotism. Amid Cold War paranoia and fears of the Soviet nuclear program, the stakes were simply too high: for the free world, building the most powerful weapon in history was a matter of life and horrible death."

32 of 352 comments (clear)

  1. Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Now that Iran wants to have nuke, what would the opinion of Mr. Teller be?

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by starfire83 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Bomb them.

    2. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If Iran ever dared to use such a weapon against anyone, it would be the last thing it ever did. China and Russia will tolerate the Ayatollahs to a point, but to actually launch an attack against anyone else, that would be intolerable even by their standards. All support would end instantly and Israel and the United States would be given carte blanche to deal with Iran as they chose. The Iranian airforce and navy would be wiped out, most of its military installations of any size would be destroyed, it would be left with an army and a bunch of poorly armed Basij who are only useful as cannon fodder, except the cannons would be bombing from 40,000 feet. I suspect the Ayatollahs' regime wouldn't last a month. The regular army, who has no great love for the Basij or the Revolutionary Guard, would probably arrest or just simply start shooting them, because the very few nuclear weapons that Iran would have would be useless, or worse than useless, once the necessary infrastructure to launch attacks was crippled or turned to slag.

      The fact is that as nasty as an attack by a second rate power like Iran would be, it's not something that could be repeated. Places like North Korea and Iran do not have the resources to build vast stockpiles of nukes. Once the oil dries up, they won't even be able to afford to maintain what they've built by that point.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by starfire83 · · Score: 5, Funny

      They bomb them.

    4. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They will build the bombs and they will use the bombs, no, they won't bomb anyone, but rather, they will use the bombs they have accumulated to blackmail the world

      Blackmail the world into... ...not invading them? ...letting them build nuclear bombs? ...letting their politicians be dicks and say outrageous things?

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    5. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by shiftless · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well... if it was an existential threat to their system, their power and even possibly their lives, they might well launch.

      And wouldn't they have ever right to?

      The Soviets had their empire, there was no need to nuke NATO unless something drastically changed, but be aware, at least some of the Soviet military leaders were known to have believed a nuclear war was winnable.

      Just as many Americans also believed. Yet a nuclear war never did happen. Why is that?

      Now take Iran, which is probably a lot less pragmatic than the Soviets were

      Why? Because our government and their friends want you to believe so? Do you really think Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollahs have maintained control for so long by being stupid? Do you really think they want to "end it all" and be nuked into oblivion, which would be the clearly inevitable result of using a nuke against another country?

      The problem is, the Iranian people don't have any practical control over their government at all. [...] In Iran, the government doesn't have checks and balances, it has a blank check to do whatever it wants, as long as the Supreme Leader signs it.

      Just like the United States!

      In the US, the President would likely be obeyed if he ordered a retaliatory launch, but if it was for something other than pure defense, he might well find himself disobeyed

      Ever heard of "plausible deniability"? It's a product of U.S. politics! Of course the President can't just launch nukes at will. But if the missile detection system malfunctions, as it is later determined, signalling an incoming attack, and the President orders an all-out retaliatory strike based on this data......well, who can blame him right?

    6. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Evtim · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just to add a point about China and Russia. I don't know what is the stance of China with respect to Iran, but before the Russian elections last week Putin published enormous "letter" outlining his platform and very clearly stating his opinions about all kinds of domestic and international issues. On the subject of Iran the message was clear - Russia will not tolerate Iran with nuclear weapons, period. However Russia will not lightly agree on military intervention as a "solution"; in fact they will oppose it at every turn. "Reasons for this position" - asks Mr. Putin - "look what happened everywhere where there was an intervention".

      Hard to argue against, isn't it?

    7. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by St.Creed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Fat chance they'd get any of that.

      If they started blackmailing, the political position of their remaining allies would quickly become totally untenable. They could give hints, saying "well... we'd like to have more influence on the security council... nudge nudge wink wink"... but that's about it.

      As a deterrent to actually invading them when they start shooting dissidents in lots of 10000, now that is quite another matter. It would be very effective in doing exactly that - which is why a nuke is a bad thing mostly for the Iranians themselves, and not so much anyone else.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    8. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Funny

      Mrs. Teller to her husband: "Oh Edward, all you think about is A-bombs... all you talk about is A-bombs. Your beautiful house is full of bits and pieces of A-bombs... your books are all about A-bombs... every time you sing a song, it is in some way obliquely connected with A-bombs... everything you eat has to have 'atomic' incorporated in the title... Your whole life is becoming obsessively atomic, you know. Why do I have to hang from this bloody bomb casing all day? Don't I mean anything to you?"

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  2. They Saved The World by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The fact is that without the atomic bomb, WWIII most certainly would have happened between the West and the USSR. The attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki raised the stakes of another general war between the remaining Great Powers so enormously that a war like WWII would no longer be possible.

    As horrible as these weapons are, they stopped the most terrible war the world would have ever known.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    1. Re:They Saved The World by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Informative

      It served two purposes:

      1. It demonstrated to the Soviets, who had massive forces amassed in Eastern and Central Europe that the West now possessed a weapon deliverable by high altitude bomber that could kill thousands.

      2. It prevented the Soviets from seizing large parts of Japan by forcing a quick surrender to the Americans. An invasion of the main islands would most certainly have taken long enough that the Soviets could have moved to occupy Japan themselves. As it was, the Russians seized the northernmost parts of the Empire proper and hold them to this very day.

      3. It stopped the war very quickly and forced an unconditional surrender. There was even less game-playing that the fragments of the Third Reich had tried to play.

      As to the larger point you try to make, the Japanese leadership's actions even after the first H bomb were hardly singular in wanting to surrender.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:They Saved The World by profplump · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not the same China. The government that we saved in WWII lost control of the mainland in 1949. The government that we saved is now commonly known as Taiwan, and in comparison to the PRC they are quite friendly.

    3. Re:They Saved The World by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Chinese admired the Americans quite a lot. Even Mao tried to make overtures, not wanting to be totally reliant on the Soviets, but the Americans had this bizarre fixation on Chiang Kai-Shek and the Kuomintang (Churchill made special note of this unreasonable obsession in his History of WWII), even after the Communists had driven them off the mainland. The strict anti-Communist stance lead the Americans to miss an opportunity at rapprochement and drove Mao completely into the Soviet sphere, and continued support for the Kuomintang, who weren't exactly all that pleasant when they were running China, pissed a lot of Chinese off.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:They Saved The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Revisionist crap. The Japanese were hellbent on taking the pacific to a lesser extent, a large chunk of China. They managed to capture its east cost pretty well. Now that I think about it. Diplomatically, I really wonder how the Chinese government thinks of America in this regards. We bloody well saved their ass!

      Nationalism keeps people from saying that other countries saved them, and before long no one remembers.

      How many people in the USA remember that the French made the American revolution possible? Lafayette St in Durham NC is named after the French general who volunteered to travel from France to Virginia to fight the British at his own expense. In the height of the build-up the Iraq war, I was in a restaurant a few blocks away from that street. People at another table made a big show of ordering "freedom fries".

    5. Re:They Saved The World by khallow · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually the Japanese were trying desperately to negotiate a surrender even before the FIRST use of WMD against them.

      The surrender effort didn't have credibility. Sure, some Japanese were trying desperately to negotiate a surrender, but other Japanese with more considerable authority were preparing for a brutal and bloody defense of the Japanese homeland at almost any cost. Those who would surrender not only had to negotiate with the US, they had to do so with their own people who advocated a war of attrition.

      The atomic bombs tipped the scale decisively in favor of those who advocated surrender. The US demonstrated a weapon that could kill countless Japanese soldiers and civilians at little cost to the US. No war of attrition could succeed against that.

      And one sees a difference in results. Instead of powerless officials making secret and irrelevant appeals through diplomatic back channels, the Emperor of Japan radioed a nationwide order to cease fighting and lay down their arms, and that order was obeyed. That's the difference that the use of those two atomic bombs wrought.

    6. Re:They Saved The World by slew · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sorry, but reality is a bit more complicated. China was basically in a civil war at the beginning of WWII. Japan had basically already taken over Manchuria (there was a movie about this "the last emperor"). To help keep Japan in check, first we gave money and supplies to the KMT (basically chiang kai-shek govt) to help them fight the Japanese, but they turned out to be incompetent, so then we gave money to CCP (basically mao and his supporters of the communist party). W/o money from the US, it is likely that both "governments" would have been defeated by the japanese. Of course that's a bit simplification, but when a countries is in a civil war and fighing the Soviet Union & Japan at the same time (ironically, germany was allied with china for a short time, until they flipped sides joined with Japan against the Soviet Union, but I digress), it isn't very simple...

      As you mentioned, the KMT is now one of the parties in Taiwan (currently holding power), but the DPP is a taiwan opposition party which breifly held the presidency from 2000-2008. So in many respects, the KMT, DPP and CCP are really sort parties, not "governments", per-se. Nominally, you'd think the DPP would be the most friendly to the US, but since the DPP supports taiwan independence, we are oddly more aligned with the KMT (and the CCP in mainland china) on this issue. Politics makes strange bedfellows...

    7. Re:They Saved The World by antifoidulus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Says the person who knows absolutely NOTHING about the actual history. The decision to surrender was far from unanimous even AFTER the two atomic bombings, even AFTER the Russia declared war. There was basically an almost open military revolt after the Emperor agreed to surrender, and had the atomic bombs not been dropped the revolt would have gotten much more support, and the war would have dragged on, probably inducing massive starvation not only in Japan, but in even worse in it's colonies as Japan was shipping out as much food as it could from Korea, Taiwan and elsewhere.

      Also, there were no "purely military" targets. The defense for the planned invasion of Kyushu was almost entirely civilian, and any military production facilities were generally located well within city limits, so again, you show you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, but feel it necessary to be self-righteous anyway.

  3. Teller and Oppenheimer by mbone · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Teller destroyed the career of Robert Oppenheimer for no damn good reason, after which his own graduate students shunned him.

    I have no interest in anything to do about him.

    1. Re:Teller and Oppenheimer by Alomex · · Score: 4, Informative

      First of all, even if he opposed it that doesn't mean you get to accuse him of being a communist.

      But in reality the situation was more complicated than that. Oppenheimer (and others) also opposed Teller's design because they thought it wouldn't work. Teller took it personally and set out to destroy them. But those others were right and in the end the H-bomb that Teller help built was based on a design of Ulam's.

  4. His son... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...Paul Teller taught at UC Davis in the 80's and 90's(maybe still does). When I took his philosophy of science course(PHI 108), on the first meeting with the TA, he said "Don't ask him about his father".

  5. Salami tactics by martin-boundary · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If Iran ever dared to use such a weapon against anyone, it would be the last thing it ever did.

    Not necessarily. Suppose Iran used a nuke against North Korea? Would the world approve or disapprove? China would disapprove, but America might not. The UK probably would approve. Who would retaliate against Iran? Who would be allowed to bomb or even nuke Teheran? Overall, the question is difficult to answer, and that means there's a shade of gray.

    Now let's say Iran used a nuke on some slightly less evil place, but still evil. Would that turn the *whole* world against Iran, or would the support be divided, with slightly more countries against than if it was North Korea?

    At what point would the *whole* world unanimously support wiping Iran off the map? If Iran attacked America? If Iran attacked one of the former Soviet states? What if Iran attacked Zimbabwe?

    1. Re:Salami tactics by mug+funky · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the rules of MAD are still in place i think. nuke anyone at all, and you're as good as nuked yourself.

      countries with nukes are diverse enough that you couldn't bomb one ideology without pissing off some nuclear power. we have communists (China), mafia states (sadly Russia), capitalist states (USA, UK), social democracies (France, sort of), Islamic states (Pakistan), and India which is kinda a bit of everything. then there's Israel... the whole political spectrum in all it's shades of madness and reason have nukes.

    2. Re:Salami tactics by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not necessarily. Suppose Iran used a nuke against North Korea?

      If Israel sees a missile launched from any of the nuclear sites in Iran, I doubt they're going to wait to see where it's aimed before striking with all they've got.

    3. Re:Salami tactics by shiftless · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not necessarily. Suppose Iran used a nuke against North Korea? Would the world approve or disapprove?

      You're missing the point.

      The point is:

      Why in the world would Iran want to nuke anyone? It makes absolutely zero military sense Do you really think Ahmadinejad or the Ayatollahs are that stupid?

    4. Re:Salami tactics by nusuth · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I copy and paste without shame:
      http://homepage.mac.com/msb/163x/faqs/nuclear_warfare_101.html

      The Nuclear Game - An Essay on Nuclear Policy Making

      When a country first acquires nuclear weapons it does so out of a very accurate perception that possession of nukes fundamentally changes it relationships with other powers. What nuclear weapons buy for a New Nuclear Power (NNP) is the fact that once the country in question has nuclear weapons, it cannot be beaten. It can be defeated, that is it can be prevented from achieving certain goals or stopped from following certain courses of action, but it cannot be beaten. It will never have enemy tanks moving down the streets of its capital, it will never have its national treasures looted and its citizens forced into servitude. The enemy will be destroyed by nuclear attack first. A potential enemy knows that so will not push the situation to the point where our NNP is on the verge of being beaten. In effect, the effect of acquiring nuclear weapons is that the owning country has set limits on any conflict in which it is involved. This is such an immensely attractive option that states find it irresistible.

      Only later do they realize the problem. Nuclear weapons are so immensely destructive that they mean a country can be totally destroyed by their use. Although our NNP cannot be beaten by an enemy it can be destroyed by that enemy. Although a beaten country can pick itself up and recover, the chances of a country devastated by nuclear strikes doing the same are virtually non-existent. [This needs some elaboration. Given the likely scale and effects of a nuclear attack, its most unlikely that the everybody will be killed. There will be survivors and they will rebuild a society but it will have nothing in common with what was there before. So, to all intents and purposes, once a society initiates a nuclear exchange its gone forever]. Once this basic factor has been absorbed, the NNP makes a fundamental realization that will influence every move it makes from this point onwards. If it does nothing, its effectively invincible. If, however, it does something, there is a serious risk that it will initiate a chain of events that will eventually lead to a nuclear holocaust. The result of that terrifying realization is strategic paralysis.

      With that appreciation of strategic paralysis comes an even worse problem. A non-nuclear country has a wide range of options for its forces. Although its actions may incur a risk of being beaten they do not court destruction. Thus, a non-nuclear nation can afford to take risks of a calculated nature. However,a nuclear-equipped nation has to consider the risk that actions by its conventional forces will lead to a situation where it may have to use its nuclear forces with the resulting holocaust. Therefore, not only are its strategic nuclear options restricted by its possession of nuclear weapons, so are its tactical and operational options. So we add tactical and operational paralysis to the strategic variety. This is why we see such a tremendous emphasis on the mechanics of decision making in nuclear powers. Every decision has to be thought through, not for one step or the step after but for six, seven or eight steps down the line.

      We can see this in the events of the 1960s and 1970s, especially surrounding the Vietnam War. Every so often, the question gets asked "How could the US have won in Vietnam?" with a series of replies that include invading the North,extending the bombing to China and other dramatic escalations of the conflict. Now, it should be obvious why such suggestions could not, in the real world, be contemplated. The risk of ending up in a nuclear war was too great. For another example, note how the presence of nuclear weapons restricted and limited the tactical and operational options available to both sides in the 1973 Yom Kippur War. In effect neither side could push the war to a final conclusion because to do so would bring

      --

      Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!

  6. Fortunately by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Funny

    Thank goodness, now that the Cold War is over we have the War on Terror, so we can still dismiss critics of more spending for unnecessary weapon systems as "lacking in common sense or patriotism".

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  7. Re:Why is HE the most vilified? by Alioth · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because of this:

    What separates them is intent. Teller knew full well he was designing the weapons to end industrial civilization. Teller was deliberately designing stuff to kill people.

    Thomas Midgley Jr. didn't know when he was developing the things he was developing that they were anything other than helpful to society.

  8. Stupid and evil by fnj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, we think Ahmadinejad and the ayatollahs are that stupid. Plainly.

    Next question.

  9. Re:Communists != Muslims by olau · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You're being irrational. Suicide bombers are employed as a last resort against a technically superior enemy. I'm sure that if you go back in time, you'll find that all major religions have had suicidal fighters in one way or another. It has nothing to do with religion.

    The fact that you conclude that the communists "undoubtedly wanted to wipe out their enemies" just shows how narrow you're thinking about this. The tragedy of an arms race like in the cold war is that both sides are building weapons out of fear of an attack. It's madness.

  10. Re:Radioactive signature by QuantumPion · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No. IAANP and that is hollywood fiction.

  11. Re:Communists != Muslims by careysub · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Rules of MAD don't apply to Islamic regimes the same way that they did to Communists. Sure, the Communists (Soviets & Chinese) were evil, but they were at least rational about it - while they undoubtedly wanted to wipe out their enemies, they themselves wanted to survive. Which is why deterence worked during the Cold War. During that time, there were a lot of espionage & terrorist acts pulled off by the NKVD/KGB, but how many suicide bombings does anybody remember that the Soviets did?

    ...

    How short the memories.

    During the Cold War the hysteria-mongers routinely argued that the Communists could not be deterred because they cared nothing for human life - arguments trotted out for this view were the tens of millions of deaths in the Stalinist and Maoist purges and engineered famines, the way life was literally thrown away in Gulags, and in WWII how millions of Soviet soldiers were carelessly sacrificed for negligible battlefield effect (and the same with Chinese and North Korean soldiers a few years later, and North Vietnamese and Cambodian soldiers decades after that). Various quotes by Lenin were commonly repeated (some of them fictitious*) to show the utter ruthlessness, and that their messianic belief in the inevitable victory of Communism made them indifferent to the possibility of nuclear war since Communism would survive.**

    And most of the statements about Communist behavior were true. But a big difference is it was never the leadership, the state itself that was put at risk. Nuclear weapons change that completely. That alone makes the whole claim completely invalid.

    *The favored fake quote, often repeated was this one: "What does it matter if three-fourths of the world perish, if the remaining one fourth are good communists?" attributed to Lenin.

    **Counter-evidence, like Stalin's decision not to seize West Berlin, Khruschev's hasty back-down in Cuba, and the striking intolerance to taking casualties in the 1980s after the Afghanistan invasion were ignored.

    This "Islamists are insane and are not afraid of nuclear war" is just a retread of the same Cold War tripe.

    --
    Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
  12. Re:Communists != Muslims by jackbird · · Score: 4, Informative

    I was unaware the Japanese Imperial Navy indoctrinated their kamikaze pilots in Islam.

    Nor the Viet Cong with their suicide bombers.

    And that's just the conflicts I can think of off the top of my head involving the USA.