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Online Learning Becomes Court-Ordered Community Service

An anonymous reader writes "Yahoo Finance reports that convicted criminal offenders can serve their court-ordered community service hours online by taking educational courses through Community Service Help. According to the article, there is a high correlation between criminal activity and lack of education. Who knew? 'About 40 percent of all U.S. prison inmates never finished high school, and nearly 44 percent of jail inmates did not complete high school. More current data shows that hasn't changed. In Washington, D.C., for instance, 44 percent of Department of Corrections inmates are not high school graduates. Less than 2 percent had 16 years or more of schooling.'"

33 of 160 comments (clear)

  1. Great idea! by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 2, Funny

    More criminals online. Exactly what we needed.

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
  2. Once again by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Funny

    Correlation != cause. Educating them will just mean smarter criminals. Not everyone can work in banking.

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    1. Re:Once again by bipbop · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes, only the smart criminals can work in banking!

    2. Re:Once again by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 2

      Educating them will just mean smarter criminals. Not everyone can work in banking.

      But the banks are hiring again, and we're running out of educated sociopaths, so they'll have to make do with educated convicts.

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    3. Re:Once again by JoshuaZ · · Score: 5, Informative

      You raise, a good point. The evidence suggests that to some extent criminals lack of education is caused by other variables that lead to both to criminality and make completing school more difficult. In particular, criminals have on average lower intelligence, http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201006/why-criminals-are-less-intelligent-non-criminals poor impulse control,http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=101809 and extremely high self-esteem ,http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/papers/baumeistersmartboden1996%5B1%5D.pdf, all of which are associated with doing poorly in school.

      However, there's also evidence that some amount of criminal behavior is due to lower education reducing work opportunities. The most successful programs at reducing recidivism are those which educate the convicts. https://www.stcloudstate.edu/continuingstudies/distance/documents/CollegeEducationandRecidivismEducatingCriminalsisMeritorious1997.pdf although the exact causes of this are unclear http://www.bop.gov/news/research_projects/published_reports/recidivism/orepredprg.pdf. So, while there is a correlation v. causation issue, it does look like education genuinely helps.

    4. Re:Once again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe the real reason is that educated criminals just commit legal crimes. I've recently read a study which said that being better off is associated with lack of empathy, lack of a sense of right and wrong, and lack of self reflection.
      So I have my doubts about the project. What if (in contrast to g'parent post) they do become bankers? Is that really better? They can do much more harm there than as ordinary criminals, and because it's legal we can't lock 'm up any more.

    5. Re:Once again by priceslasher · · Score: 2

      Does the study suggest that dropping out causes criminal behavior (or just increases)? Everyone in prison isn't necessarily pathologically anti social or destructive, and even teenagers mellow out eventually.

    6. Re:Once again by Kjella · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But very few can work in unskilled labor, those jobs are practically going away not to mention when the going gets tough you're in competition with all the skilled labor too. I remember there was an article here in Norway about a position as warehouse assistant, they got 3-400 applicants and the job market here isn't even tough. If it had been I'm guessing 1000+ applicants because it's the kind of job absolutely everyone can do. But there's a very limited number of McJobs and even most of those want people that have worked retail before plus domain experience like working with food. You don't need qualifications to stand on the street corner and sell drugs or break windows and steal shit. Of course some would continue to be criminals, but I think a lot of them did because they failed at everything else.

      Of course this is just highly anecdotal, but at least on my school I'd say there was a group of losers that compensated by being badass. Drinking, smoking, talking tough and following through if necessary, breaking the rules - if they couldn't be successful at school they'd make their own kind of success. They were attractive to the kind of girls that like "bad boys" too, that was important in that age. Particularly since those that were neither badass nor did well weren't treated very nice. But once that becomes the defining order, it escalates. You're not drinking beers to be badass, you're drinking liquor. Or you're doing drugs. You're not breaking school rules, you're shoplifting. And as everyone else's opinion of you deteriorates - other school mates, parents etc. your standing in the gang only becomes more important.

      I'm not talking about street gangs in New York here, I'm talking about a fairly quiet suburb in low crime Norway. I'm thinking this is a pattern that exists more or less all over the world, of course it doesn't explain all crime but I think it explains a lot of petty crime, the kind people say came from "hanging with a bad crowd". And yes, I'd say failing at school is a leading cause as to why people start doing that. I'm not so sure it'll help though, most of these people were failing for a reason and they're not going to be the brightest even if they get remedial education. But maybe it can give them some sense of achievement on the other scale, they might not win any Nobel prizes but they're making a honest living. It's at least a chance to getting out of a bad circle if they're willing to take it.

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    7. Re:Once again by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      I don't believe lack of education makes one more likely to commit crime, only more likely to get caught. Smart and educated criminals will get away with their crime far more often than those who are stupid and lack education.

    8. Re:Once again by GmExtremacy · · Score: 2

      I wonder if it would help if our (at least in the US) public school system wasn't such a piece of garbage...

    9. Re:Once again by KermodeBear · · Score: 2

      'About 40 percent of all U.S. prison inmates never finished high school, and nearly 44 percent of jail inmates did not complete high school.

      Oh my god! This means that 60% of prison inmates did finish high school, and 56% of jail inmates finished high school too! Surely this means that we should ban all high schools!

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    10. Re:Once again by neonKow · · Score: 2

      There may be factors that make you more likely to be a criminal, but there's no "criminal gene." These are still human beings, and generally people just want life not to suck. They're not thinking, "oh, whatever I do MUST be immoral, so when I have an education, I will just be a a BETTER criminal." The thing about having an education is that suddenly a lot of legal and upstanding ways to make money open up, and they tend to be more attractive than crime and the risk of prison.

  3. Uhh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Does that mean educated people are less criminal or just better in hiding their crimes ?

    And in the latter case, doe we really want to educate criminals ?

    1. Re:Uhh... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A lot of criminals commit crimes because they don't believe that they have any options. You put them in prison and they come out and still can't get a job (especially now that they have a record), so what do they do? Commit more crimes. Give them some useful skills, and they see that they do have a choice.

      A small minority are just naturally and incurably sociopathic. Most of these work in management...

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    2. Re:Uhh... by swillden · · Score: 2

      You put them in prison and they come out and still can't get a job (especially now that they have a record), so what do they do? Commit more crimes. Give them some useful skills, and they see that they do have a choice.

      This presumes that having skills gives them a choice. Unfortunately, their record means getting a job is still basically impossible. Perhaps the best education we could give them is to teach them how to start and run successful small businesses, because people don't check the records of those they do business with. Of course, the ex-con had better not need a bank loan. And an education in business administration may just make an ex-con a more effective/efficient drug dealer.

      I don't know that there's a better way. If I were an employer, I wouldn't want to hire an ex-con. But the way the system works now means that people who do one stupid thing can be screwed for life.

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  4. Teaching the curve not the median by awilden · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Of course there are many reasons that people don't finish school. Sometimes it's because they're not smart enough. Other times it's because they're bored out of their skulls, or family issues are pulling them away, or a million other reasons. Maybe this should be interpreted as yet another reason that we need to revamp schools so that they do more than just deliver a "one-size-fits-all" education to the middle of the bell curve. Education is expensive, but prison is far more expensive.

    1. Re:Teaching the curve not the median by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Customising isn't that hard, if done at the correct granularity. My school split the year group into about smaller classes for each subject. Most of these were streamed based on ability so if you were, for example, gifted at mathematics but not at French then you'd be in a class learning mathematics faster but a slower French class. This used to be common in the UK, before the governments of the '70s and '80s decided that judging people based on their ability was elitist and therefore bad.

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    2. Re:Teaching the curve not the median by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Are we sure prison is more expensive? I see it as slave labour.

      Slaves are expensive. It costs something like $40k/year to incarcerate someone. If they're working the equivalent of a minimum wage job at the same time, then it's not really a good investment.

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    3. Re:Teaching the curve not the median by bipbop · · Score: 3, Interesting
    4. Re:Teaching the curve not the median by SwedishPenguin · · Score: 2

      Privatizing prisons is insane, it creates an incentive for throwing more people in jail..

    5. Re:Teaching the curve not the median by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

      Privatizing prisons is insane, it creates an incentive for throwing more people in jail..

      Those incentives exist with or without private prisons. Plenty of people profit from government run prisons. For instance, here in California, the prison guard unions spend huge amounts of money promoting tougher sentencing. This includes donations to politicians that vote for tougher laws, and financing the "Three Strikes" voter initiative. We have prisoners serving 25 years for stealing a pair of socks.

    6. Re:Teaching the curve not the median by Tim+C · · Score: 2

      This used to be common in the UK, before the governments of the '70s and '80s decided that judging people based on their ability was elitist and therefore bad.

      Well, my school did that back in the 80s, my daughter's school does that now in 2012, and while I could be wrong I'm pretty sure my teacher friends (2 at this sort of level) both teach in schools that do that (one in London, the other in Leeds). I know, the plural of anecdote isn't data, but I think streaming of pupils in schools is still pretty common. (There's plenty to dislike about education in the UK, but from my perspective that isn't one of the things)

  5. I don't think they became criminals... by dtmancom · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't think they became criminals because they didn't finish high school. Perhaps they didn't finish high school because they were already inclined to become criminals. My logic is as sound as theirs.

  6. Repeated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    33% of statistics are simply repeated. Of cited statistics 67% are not repeated. More recently 33% of statistics were repeated.

  7. In other news... by jouassou · · Score: 3

    "...give me all yo' money, or I'll bust yo' ass like Atahualpa at Cajamarca!"

  8. Re:Sign me up! by gambino21 · · Score: 2

    Check out the girl on the main page... Sign me up!

    And compare her with the unshaved, tattooed man. I guess they're trying to promote the (educated) bad boy gets the girl stereotype.

  9. HS education=compliance=no jail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The sort of people sufficiently compliant to complete high school are the sort of people sufficiently compliant to think that we must do what we're told.

    I have excellent school and university grades (mathematics, not some wishy social science). It was a waste of fucking time. I've stopped respecting the law. I shouldn't have bothered in the first place. Maybe one day I'll end up in jail. Who cares? Most people were quicker than me and learnt this lesson earlier.

    And before you wonder, no, most people aren't locked up forever. You do your time, you make a life for yourself in jail, you come out again, do something outside jail, perhaps you get caught again.

  10. Re:Sign me up! by hey! · · Score: 2

    Yeah, but is that her boyfriend? He could beat me up with one hand.

    He's wearing a Bob Marley Festival tee-shirt. Obviously a non-violent drug offender busted for lighting up to get closer to God.

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  11. Re:Go to jail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Interesting that if you actually look at the site (Community Service Help), for a criminal to get involved in this "non-profit" organization, they need a credit card number and a Pay Pal account.

    The whole Community Service Help Website reads like a sleazy advertisement. Note the picture of the smiling, big breasted girl showing her cleavage right on the front page of this "charity".

    This whole business appears to be a Slash-vertisement. Couldn't Slashdot reference an academic journal instead of some sleaveball Website that seeks to profit off of vulnerable people?

    References:
    http://www.communityservicehelp.com/

  12. Re:This is for small crimes only by Opportunist · · Score: 2

    You think that's a good thing? Think again:

    1. These people have a prior conviction.
    2. Any job these people could possibly apply for will be competed over by far more applicants than there are jobs.
    3. To have ANY chance to be chosen, these people would have to offer their workforce at a far lower price than anyone else.

    In a nutshell, if it accomplishes anything, it's more pressure on "honest" people and, in the end, lower wages for everyone.

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  13. Re:Go to jail by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Informative

    Sadly profiting off of misery is a time honored tradition here in America, hell i wouldn't be surprised if over 75% of the "community service" forced upon people by the state didn't involve kickbacks or bribes. Its just slave labor, getting for free what one normally would have to pay for. Hell look at that judge that was sending kids to boot camp for any old reason he could think of because he was getting a kickback. in case you haven't noticed our courts have become just as corrupt as any banana republic, just sit in on some sessions and be prepared to be horrified. I have watched the rich walk away from some insanely long list of charges because his very expensive lawyer "had a quiet talk with the judge in the back" while some poor Rube with a $20 bag of weed got a year in prison. The only justice is what you can buy, no different than any South American hellhole we USED to make fun of. But power corrupts and money is power so now you have two systems, one for the rich, one for the poor.

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  14. Re:WTF by MLease · · Score: 2

    No. At least, one is not legally required to obtain a high school diploma. I believe most states permit people to drop out of high school at the age of 16, though there may be parental permission required to so so, etc. And, of course, most jobs require a minimum of a high school diploma. But as far as the law is concerned, it's not mandatory.

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  15. Re:WTF by swillden · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Also, kids that get in a lot of legal trouble tend not to be able to finish a high school diploma. Juvenile detention centers do teach classes, but the credits end up being so fragmented as kids jump between detention and regular school that it's difficult for them to actually fulfill the requirements -- and that assumes they don't just fail their classes anyway.

    I have personal experience with this. My daughter is very bright and capable, but suffers from a severe emotional disorder which leads her to make a lot of dumb decisions. Even though she typically does very well in school, her time in treatment centers, trouble with the law, expulsions from schools, etc., mean that she's chronically behind on credits. For example, she completed much of the first semester of Calculus this year (as a junior), but then got in trouble and ended up getting no math credit at all. She's now in a residential treatment center and taking dum-dum math because it's all they offer, but won't get any credit for it because she's already done it.

    In her case, because she's so bright, the solution will likely be to take the GED as soon as the state will let her, and she'll pass it handily. Or else I'll pay for summer school classes, or something similar. She's smart enough, and has involved parents, so she has a chance to be able to make it. Kids with similar issues but without similar advantages are really screwed. Of course, if she can't learn to manage her mental illness -- which is very, very hard to do -- she's going to be screwed, too. We try to help every way we can, but we can't live her life for her, and as she becomes an adult the consequences of bad decisions are going to become even more severe.

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