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Single-Ion Clock 100 Times More Accurate Than Atomic Clock

New submitter labnet writes with this excerpt from news.com.au: "University of New South Wales School of Physics professor Victor Flambaum has found a method of timekeeping nearly 100 times more accurate than the best atomic clocks. By using the orbit of a neutron around an atomic nucleus he says the system stays accurate to within 1/20th of a second over billions of years. Although perhaps not for daily use, the technology could prove valuable in science experiments where chronological accuracy is paramount, Prof Flambaum said."

29 of 169 comments (clear)

  1. yeah but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    until it comes with indiglo i don't want it

  2. Eventually... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Eventually you'll be so accurate that walking by the thing will cause enough relativistic distortions that you can no longer claim to have any accuracy at all.

    1. Re:Eventually... by Bowdie · · Score: 5, Funny

      Grr! You changed the clock by observing it!

      Damm kids!

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    2. Re:Eventually... by gomiam · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's even worse. IIRC, current atomic clocks are now so precise that stacking one on top of the other (say 20cm distance) is enough to make them start drifting due to the different gravitational field strength.

    3. Re:Eventually... by Yvan256 · · Score: 4, Funny

      So what you're saying is that by stacking a few dozen alarm clocks on top of each other, I can get one more hour of sleep?

      Cool!

    4. Re:Eventually... by huge · · Score: 5, Informative

      As the old saying goes: "A man with one clock knows what time it is. A man with two clocks is never sure."

      --
      -- Reality checks don't bounce.
    5. Re:Eventually... by zAPPzAPP · · Score: 4, Funny

      The only flaw in this plan is, that you would need to sleep through all alarms but the last one.
      Other than that it's perfect.
      Yes.

    6. Re:Eventually... by strack · · Score: 3, Insightful

      a man with three clocks knows if one of his clocks is not working correctly.

    7. Re:Eventually... by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      a man with three clocks knows if one of his clocks is not working correctly.

      So does a man with two clocks. But a man with three clocks may know which one.

    8. Re:Eventually... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Funny
      The summary is misleading at best anyway:

      Although perhaps not for daily use, the technology could prove valuable in science experiments where chronological accuracy is paramount, Prof Flambaum said.

      As the different series of Star Trek have already shown us, the words "chronological accuracy" and "Paramount" do not belong to the same sentence, much less do they deserve to be joined by the copula.

      --
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    9. Re:Eventually... by TheCouchPotatoFamine · · Score: 3, Funny

      THERE ARE FOUR CLOCKS! (god, this thread is pedantic torture :)

      --
      CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
  3. Just scientific experiments? by gcnaddict · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Although perhaps not for daily use, the technology could prove valuable in science experiments

    You kidding me? The prospect of GPS-guided bullets accurate to the millimeter will have the US military pursuing this in next-gen GPS satellites as soon as the technology is viable. Hell, this'll be the most valuable update to military hardware in decades.

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    1. Re:Just scientific experiments? by gcnaddict · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's precisely what hyper-accurate atomic clocks allow you to correct. The distortions manifest in less accurate clocks. The more accurate your time, the better your algorithmic corrections between the ground and the satellites.

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  4. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  5. Link to actual paper by foo1752 · · Score: 5, Informative
  6. Orbit of neutron around the nucleus? by michelcolman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And here I was, thinking that neutrons were inside the nucleus and electrons were orbiting around it. What's going on here? How can a neutron orbit a nucleus? It's an actual question, I know the atomic models I was once taught are way out of date (by a couple of centuries, probably), but I never heard of neutrons orbiting nuclei.

    1. Re:Orbit of neutron around the nucleus? by CaptainJeff · · Score: 5, Informative

      Here you go. Nuclear Shell Model

    2. Re:Orbit of neutron around the nucleus? by fnj · · Score: 3, Funny

      Thanks a lot. Now I am disturbed. Everybody knows the nucleus is a bunch of little round colored balls globbed together.

  7. If You Need That Much Accuracy by Greyfox · · Score: 4, Informative
    It's very easy to fuck it up, as we saw with the FTL neutreno experiment a few months ago. I've seen a lot of business requirements specify that level of precision because they think it would be cool and it just turns into a nightmare later. Hell, you're lucky to agree within tens of seconds. Take POSIX (PLEASE! Heh.) POSIX specifies that time measured in seconds from midnight, Jan 1, 1970 UTC. Seams easy enough right? Well it turns out UTC specifies accounting for leap seconds, so you should subtract 33 seconds (IIRC) over the course of those 42 years. POSIX also specifies that leap seconds not be accounted for. Brilliant! Then it's not UTC! Now here's where it gets fun! The Linux kernel may or may not actually handle leap seconds, depending on how you configure it. And what happens if you're syncing off NTP? Or GPS? It's a problem if you need to convert to TAI or TDT. If you adjust for leap seconds and your system doesn't measure them, you could end up being over 60 seconds wrong versus what time it "really" is. When you're trying to communicate with a satellite going 2000 miles a second, that's a problem. Because you'll be pointing you're antenna over there, and the satellite's really over here!

    It'd be nice if some physics professor *cough* could solve those problems before making some shit that can be accurate for a billion years! See what I did there? That was just passive aggressive right there, wasn't it? Too much Portal, lately...

    --

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  8. Re:Orbit around a nucleus? by CaptainJeff · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nothing. Modern physics is unable to describe how electrons really work/interact with other subatomic particles in a way that makes sense. Which the orbiting isn't right, the shell model isn't right either...we're just not able to describe it yet. So, one model can be an effective description for certain purposes and others for others. In this case, the Nuclear Shell Model describes a different model of the atomic nucleus that describes the quantum interactions in a manner that allows these types of measurements to be made.

  9. How do you measure how accurate it is? by Viol8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If an atomic clock is your most accurate timepiece then how on earth can you tell if something is more accurate?

    Can someone explain?

    Also , given that a second is defined in terms of the ceasium atom as used in atomic clocks then surely anything that deviates from this is by definition LESS accurate (if you see what I mean)?

    1. Re:How do you measure how accurate it is? by tibit · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The same way it always was. Think of how you'd do it in any sort of mechanical measurements. You don't need the same level of accuracy to determine that something is more accurate. Most measurements have nice properties that must hold when you repeat the measurements, such as linearity. All you have to do, then, is to use the assumedly more accurate device to characterize the errors of a less accurate one. If you can reproduce your results and various expected properties hold, then there's no other explanation but that your new device is in fact more accurate.

      The deal with the caesium atom is that it only defines a second to a certain accuracy. If you have a better time reference, it's not by definition less accurate, it's just that your standard has accuracy only to so many decimal digits and when you're past that you must get a better standard. You can use the better reference to characterize the inaccuracies in your standard (say various drifts, phase noise in case of time references, etc). Eventually, you redefine the second using the better standard, and you do it pretty much by appending some arbitrarily chosen digits to the new definition that reproduces the old one. They had second defined however, then they measured it using the caesium clock, got a bunch of results, averaged them, and said: that's the new second. A whole bunch of digits of the new definition were pretty arbitrary -- they original definition wasn't able to provide you with stable digits all the way. Same thing will happen again: the new clock will be used to measure the cesium one, and they'll average things and the new second will be a few orders of mangnitude more cycles of this nuclear clock; it will be matching the old clock within the old clock's accuracy, but the now-added digits will be entirely arbitrary. This is how it has happened with pretty much all the other measurements (distance, weight, etc).

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    2. Re:How do you measure how accurate it is? by vlm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the accuracy is defined as fractions of a second over billion years - how do they know its going to last a billion years

      Run the reciprocal and test your frequency. You know that saying about how in europe they think hundreds of miles (err KM) is far away and hundreds of years is recent, but in the US they think hundreds of miles is a daily commute and hundreds of years is ancient? Well billions of seconds is a long time, but billions of cycles per second is actually medium to low frequency in the RF world now a days, depending I guess on industry (that would still be considered kind of fast in the PLC/VFD field, but truly ancient great-grandfatherly stuff in the radar world)

      So you've got three atomic clocks (now a days a ebay special Rb clock is about $100 surplus) and use that to drive three sets of ham radio microwave experimenters gear at 10 GHz (which is not cutting edge anymore). Hmm. 10 billion hz. suddenly fractional parts per billion becomes fractional hz which a piano tuner has no real problem detecting.

      This isn't exactly how it works, but as a thought experiment you hook up your 10gig ethernet and drive it with this clock and hack the driver for variable length packets... If you think you have better than 0.1 ppb clock, then you should be able to transmit a billion bit packet and not fall out of frame sync (which at 10 gigs only takes a tenth of a second). This is not exactly the modulation method used by real 10gigE and not exactly how you test it, but it within the realm of the general idea.

      Good luck doing modern ham radio stuff like bouncing microwave signals off the moon using the more exotic low SNR digital modes without at least PPB level frequency accuracy. Freq stability is a factor at 10 GHz until at least 10e-9 for that kind of work... luckily 10e-11 is cheap and off the (ebay) shelf for $200 or so GPSDO or old Rb oscillators.

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  10. I have to say by NEDHead · · Score: 3, Funny

    It's about time

  11. Preprint on arXiv by eis2718bob · · Score: 4, Informative

    A preprint is available on arXiv at http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.2490

    A nuclear transition in triply-ionized 229Th has been found which is particularly insensitive to external magnetic fields and electron configuration, which gives the potential for a very stable clock,several orders of magnitude better than current clocks if phase comparisons can be made across a scale of days or weeks. The transition energy is at 163nm (in the ultraviolet). To take advantage of this clock an extremely stable laser at this wavelength (using current best clocks) will need to be created.

  12. How can you tell?? by mooingyak · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I've always wondered, with regard to the accuracy of clocks like this, how can you actually tell how accurate it is?

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  13. Re:Orbit around a nucleus? by tibit · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The term "making sense" is, I believe, misapplied here. The quantum world is pretty much unavailable to our senses, neither do they exactly teach this stuff to kindergartners. So we have no early-life experience of any sort here, thus there's no common sense about the world at quantum scale. It won't ever make sense, and there's no reason for it to make any sense. It's just how the world happens to work, and there's nothing at all that we can do about it. This is in stark contrast to, say, bureaucracy, where certain ways of doing stuff are not how Nature works, but how humans happen to work -- very changeable if you can pull it off.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  14. 100 times more accurate? by sootman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If Server A has 90% uptime and Server B has 99% uptime, that does not mean that Server B is up 10x more than Server A, even though Server A is down 10x more than Server B. In fact, Server B is only 10% better than Server A. Or, 1/10 as bad.*

    So, while the old clock may drift 100x more than this new one in a certain amount of time, or this new one might last 100x longer before drifting a certain amount (or whatever--the .au article is total puff and I don't care enough to look at the source), it is almost certainly not 100x more accurate. At best, it's 1/100th as inaccurate.

    * The difference between 36 days of downtime per year versus 4 days might be the difference between "useful" and "completely worthless", making Server B 100x better, but that's not what we're measuring here.

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  15. Re:atomic clock accuracy by vlm · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yes, because being off by 2 seconds every billion years is something to worry about. I am sick of having to adjust my watch for the inaccuracy of atomic clocks.

    a OC-192 fiber line transmits 10 gigs/sec, roughly.

    If you stuck one of those "2 secs/gigayear" clocks on each end, instead of regenerating the clock off the line, I think the circuit would lose line sync and drop every:

    365*24*60*60 /10 /2 / 6/60/60/24 = every 18.2 days. Bummer.

    Lets check. 10 gigabits/sec at 18.2 days is 18.2*24*60*60*10*1e9 is 1.57e16 bits. 2 secs/gigayear is an error rate of 1e9*365*24*60*60/2 is 1.57e16 bits per clock framing failure. Seems likely.

    That is why now a days you get your clock off the line instead of internal clocking at each site. In ye olden T-1 era, a clock that good at each CO would mean you'd probably never experience a clock slip between COs in the lifetime of the equipment... Even in ye olden days we internal timed quite a bit (and some of our DEXCS only could do internal, so we had to)

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