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Mastering Engineer Explains Types of Compression, Effects On Today's Music

Stowie101 writes "Today is Dynamic Range Day, which is an event to educate the public about the 'Loudness Wars' that are compressing and harming the quality of today's music. Ian Shepherd, a mastering engineer and founder of Dynamic Range Day, explains why music lovers should avoid MP3 files. 'The one that springs to mind is to avoid MP3, especially if it's 128 kbps. Apple uses a more advanced technology called AAC, but if someone can get lossless files like FLAC that's a better place to start.' Shepherd says it's actually harder to make a good 'lossy' encode of something that has been heavily musically compressed. Very heavy dynamic compression and limiting makes MP3s sound worse, so the loudness wars indirectly make MP3s sound worse."

382 comments

  1. huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    good luck finding the master tracks to even go to lossless. If you're getting your music from a CD, don't waste your time. Record all the music yourself?

    1. Re:huh by flyneye · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Anon Cow has a point, if not blunt. Most people have non discriminating ears till you really get some square waving going, so mp3 is fine for cd. It will get blasted from average home stereo speakers, 6x9 car speakers and crammed into Wal-Mart earbuds after being ripped with the V.U. pegging the red zone anyway.

              I've listened to scratchy 78s , old 45s, modern vinyl, reel to reel, 8-track,cassette,DAT and hard drive on everything from audiophile to crap to P.A. systems.
      Audiophile music has survived popular culture thus far. Mp3 isn't going to harm anydamnthing. The sky isn't falling. Relax.

      I do however expect flac to become standard for bands smart enough to give away their music to promote themselves. What balls to fly in the chin of the music industry who doesn't dare pull a stunt like that.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    2. Re:huh by DragonTHC · · Score: 2

      that's not the point.

      It's why people have non-discriminating ears.

      They don't know the difference. This will help.

      I can hear the difference listening to Dave Brubeck on original vinyl vs. modern CD.

      Though you have a point about what hardware they're using to listen.

      --
      They're using their grammar skills there.
    3. Re:huh by hairyfeet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think what audiophiles like TFA just don't seem to get is exactly that, the crap speakers we've been using since the turn of the last century. VERY few people have systems that would even qualify as low end audiophile, most are frankly just barely above crap if not crap. My home system is a 1980s cheap Korean home stereo with a couple of 10 inchers, does anyone REALLY think I'm gonna miss something by not using FLAC? or on the shitty earbuds on my MP3 player or that $30 2.1 system I use at work?

      Then there is the other elephant in the room, how so many of us have listened at ear bleeding levels and gone to rock concerts and frankly just don't have that great a range left anyway. I've been playing bass for 30+ years now, guess where they always stick the bass player? Right next to the crash. Between that and my love of powerful bass amps i doubt i could hear the difference between FLAC and MP3 if you put a gun to my head.

      Oh but I think you're wrong about FLAC because for 99.99% of the users out there MP3 is "good enough" and the whole point when you give away songs is that you want them HEARD and most people don't know WTF FLAC is or what it will play in, but MP3 is universal, it'll play in anything from that $10 thumbstick MP3 player at the checkout of the Walgreen's to the most expensive audio decks. if folks want better they are welcome to buy my CD, at $10 for 14 songs its not like we gouge on the things.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    4. Re:huh by donscarletti · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I can hear the difference listening to Dave Brubeck on original vinyl vs. modern CD.

      Yes, but we're talking mp3 here, nobody's claiming a 256kbps mp3 is as lossy or distorted as vinyl.

      --
      When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
    5. Re:huh by Ihmhi · · Score: 4, Funny

      I've been playing bass for 30+ years now, guess where they always stick the bass player? Right next to the crash.

      First, wear hearing protection. Too few artists actually do this and it hurts them in the long run.

      Secondly, why are you standing near the crash? I mean, you're in the band. Can't you stand wherever you wa-

      bass player

      Oh... nevermind.

    6. Re:huh by jd · · Score: 0

      Good quality vinyl on a quality turntable has better dynamics than any MP3.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    7. Re:huh by jd · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Hearing recovers just fine, given time. The ear is much better at healing than had been thought at one time. What does NOT heal with time is the brain's ability to process sound. The brain cannot learn to distinguish sounds it never gets the chance to hear. Give someone who has poor sensitivity long enough exposure to quality audio systems and they'll KNOW there's a difference. They may not be able to quantify what that improvement is, but they WILL know that there is a difference.

      Bring someone up right, from the very beginning, and the difference will be so great that low-quality sound will be painful for them to hear. As it damn well should be.

      Anyone can be inured to crap, and lose their sensitivity, but that doesn't make the crap any better. It makes the person that much less.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    8. Re:huh by sunspot42 · · Score: 3, Informative

      .MP3 is capable of far, far greater dynamic range than any vinyl. Lossy compression has its issues, but dynamic range isn't one of them.

      Though it does exhibit certain artifacts when the dynamic range and the bit rate are both low. Of course, vinyl has its own issues with hot signals.

    9. Re:huh by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      As it damn well should be.

      That's pretty subjective. As is your use of the word "crap."

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    10. Re:huh by fluffy99 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Neither the article you linked to, nor the suspect Bauman paper it references measured a real 112db dynamic range from an actual record. They measured the noise floor of a pickup, did some measurements of the pre-amp, did some hand waving about how a skilled ear can add a magic 30 dB below the noise floor and claimed that as the theoretical dynamic range of actually playing a record on high quality equipment. It totally ignores the physical limitations of the vinyl and pickup. It also ignores the other issues with records such as rumble, wow and flutter, poor stereo separation, non-linear response, and other distortions. Their own measurements show the pre-amp SNR in in the 70s, which shows the 112dB claim to be BS.

      I label any review as suspect when it uses fluffy wording like this:

      As you might expect, the resolution of low-level detail was outstanding. Against a dead-black background, finely layered images floated in three dimensions on what was a somewhat wider soundstage than I'd become accustomed to

    11. Re:huh by donscarletti · · Score: 4, Insightful

      From your quoted article

      ...are represented by stylus motions of less than an ultraviolet wavelength (1/100,000,000 of a meter)—a dimension approaching the size of a complex organic molecule.

      Yep, just relying on a few assumptions:

      Vinyl can be cut 3 times more precisely with record presses than Intel can than silicon (32nm, 3.2/100,000,000 of a meter) with multi billion dollar factories.

      This movement, after being transferred through you multiple millimetre long stylus, then into the magnetic coil, then through a meter non-zero impedance analogue cable and into your pre-amp, this signal will be stronger than the radiation caused by a star in another galaxy.

      There exists a cleaning method that can remove all dust, germs, water drops, micro-organisms from vinyl without putting a 10nm scratch into it.

      --
      When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
    12. Re:huh by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Hey, I'll have you know girls LOVE the bass player buddy! Its not our fault them damned whiny guitarist and pretty boy singers keep getting in our way and hogging all the spotlight! Oh and ladies? just remember those whiny little guitarists are all rush rush rush and singers will fight you for the mirror, but we bass players are great with our fingers and now how to build a nice slow groove. Just sayin, something to think about. Just don't think about it around me as my Cherokee princess is liable to scalp my ass. Word of advice fellas, ain't nothing more scary than a NAP (Native American Princess) with a case of the green eyed monster, talk about feeling like Custer!

      Oh and as for earplugs? can't wear 'em, they throw the tone off so damned bad it makes me literally trip over my own fingers. I really need the full range of the 5 string to be able to groove and with the earplugs you lose the low mids, it sounds like you are trying to play while you have water in your ears, so not fun. I've learned not to stand anywhere near the crash and to put my bass amp cocked off to the side instead of blasting at me and instead have a custom mix in a monitor so I can control the volume a little better.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    13. Re:huh by sunspot42 · · Score: 5, Informative

      112dB? Ha! Hilarious.

      You're lucky to get 70dB out of audiophile grade vinyl. See http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Vinyl_Myths

      There's also an interesting discussion of the dynamic range of both vinyl and 16-bit/44kHz digital audio here:

      http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=47827&st=0&p=425794&#entry425794

      The dynamic range of vinyl does vary by frequency. For example, in that thread a poster notes he measured 84dB at 300Hz for vinyl. A 300Hz tone recorded to a 16-bit wave file with noise shaped dither exhibited a dynamic rage of 151dB!

      Vinyl has extremely limited dynamic range in the bass - something like 30dB at 20Hz. The needle would pop out of the groove if you tried to record more than that. Vinyl also suffers from constant negative signal to noise ratio incidents, when impulse noise (clicks and pops from scratches, dust and defects in the groove, static discharge) completely drowns out the signal. Unacceptable, in any format.

      See also this recent article, which, while skewering the distribution of 24-bit/192kHz audio, notes that 16-bit digital audio has an overall dynamic range of 120dB with dither:

      http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

      Vinyl's a shitty format for reasons apart from its inferior dynamic range, but that's not terribly surprising since it's like 100 years old, mechanical, and prone to a plethora of issues - rumble, wow and flutter, phase issues caused by the RIAA equalization / de-equalization process, scads of unwanted harmonics and harmonic distortion, ultrasonic noise, preamp hum, static clicks, etc., etc., etc.

      Probably should have been replaced by some other analog disc-based format by the early '70s - maybe something based on RCA's capacitance discs, which wound up being used for video, and had scads of bandwidth - more than enough for near-flawless reproduction of the original studio master tapes. But at the time most industry attention was focused on the emerging lo-fi but convenient tape formats, first 8-track then cassette, as well as the failed competing quad systems. And then by the middle of the decade everybody knew a digital format was coming, with Sony and Philips working first separately, and then by '79 or so together on what would become the Compact Disc.

    14. Re:huh by sunspot42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The funny thing is, I'm sure there's all sorts of gunk in a vinyl groove resulting in tiny stylus motions that are theoretically audible...but which weren't put there intentionally.

      Whoops.

      I grew up with vinyl and always thought it was a ridiculous audio format. Fragile, noisy, screeching high frequency harmonics, static, had to be cleaned every play, degraded, spindle holes always off center, warped, scratched, hum, rumble, wow & flutter, clipped, pure unadulterated shit. To add insult to injury a decent turntable and cartridge cost at least $300 bucks even in the early '80s (probably $600 in 2012 dollars), just to try and make that crap format sound reasonably acceptable.

      By the early '80s and the arrival of Dolby C the lowly cassette sounded better in a decent deck, and that's pathetic when you consider cassette was invented as a dictation medium. Unfortunately most pre-recorded tapes were poorly made, and the only thing you had to record from was either FM radio or (you guessed it), f'in vinyl.

    15. Re:huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to disagree particularly about vinyl, but Dolby C made everything sound crap (and by that I mean muddy in general), even on a decent deck with decent tape.

    16. Re:huh by Urigeller23 · · Score: 1

      Lossless 16-bit digital formats give you a dynamic range of 96dB

      Not quite right.
      http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
      See "The dynamic range of 16 bits"

    17. Re:huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You went off on a tangent here, man. I mean, Cherokee princess, really?

    18. Re:huh by syockit · · Score: 1

      You know what? This is the kind of post I've been waiting for when I saw that reply towards the mention of bass player.

      --
      Democracy is for the people; you only vote once per season and we'll do the rest of the work for you don't have to.
    19. Re:huh by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Hey, I'll have you know girls LOVE the bass player buddy! Its not our fault them damned whiny guitarist and pretty boy singers keep getting in our way and hogging all the spotlight!

      that's cool dood, The bass player is the most important member of the band, after all, who else has all the drug contacts. Beside you need a singer to be able to tell you that your rig is killing the kick drum and where the gig is on.. just like every other bass player - you'll show up on time, just to the wrong place

      just sayin...,

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    20. Re:huh by FaxeTheCat · · Score: 2

      I can hear the difference listening to Dave Brubeck on original vinyl vs. modern CD.

      That is because the mastering is different. It is a well known fact that during the times when several media were on sale, there were different masterings for cassette/Vinyl/CD.
      Resiiues of older tracks on CD are allways remastered. That change is clearly audible.
      Of course, pressing the same master on to vinyl will also change the sound, as there are more sound changing steps involved between you and the master.

    21. Re:huh by oergiR · · Score: 4, Funny

      it makes me literally trip over my own fingers.

      Some hate it when people use "literally" when they mean "figuratively".

      Not me. I picture you literally tripping over your fingers. Which body parts were you playing your bass with before that happened?

    22. Re:huh by msobkow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While heavily compressed MP3s sound worse than FLAC, even FLAC doesn't sound like a recording of natural music. And that's because of the simple fact that a 44.1 KHz sample rate isn't fast enough to catch the details of sounds like:

      • A high hat cymbal, which should ring like metal when struck, not break up into a crashing noise
      • Wires on a snare drum, which you should hear rattling against the drum head instead of crackling like tissue paper
      • Triangles or bells, which should ring delicately over the music for a few seconds, not disappear after making a few seconds of decidedly un-bell-like noise.

      Go ahead and mod me down again for being able to identify and tag the difference between live music and 44.1 samples again. After all, just because you can't hear it must mean I'm "delusional."

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    23. Re:huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what? What do you think is the dynamic range of most home speakers or headphones?

    24. Re:huh by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 2

      The magic words you are looking for is:
        * laser turntable
      It uses a laser for its pickup so the vinyl is never touched.
      i.e.
            http://www.elpj.com/

      Of course it is not without its critics:
            http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-ELP.html

      Now if only the dam price was so obnoxious ...

      You make some good other points.

    25. Re:huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fellow bass player response: 100% on the mark, brutha ...

    26. Re:huh by Ihmhi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      First, if people ever give you shit about being a bass player, show them Victor Wooten. Too many bass players just jam on one string, move down a note, and repeat. There's a lot of potential with the instrument.

      Secondly, the idea isn't to block out the music you're playing - it's to block out the volume. The standard solution I've heard of is to have noise-cancelling headsets with everyone's instrument piped into them but at a much lower volume. The point is volume reduction.

      I see very, very few musicians that actually give a shit about their hearing, sadly.

    27. Re:huh by kelemvor4 · · Score: 1

      that's not the point.

      It's why people have non-discriminating ears.

      They don't know the difference. This will help.

      I can hear the difference listening to Dave Brubeck on original vinyl vs. modern CD.

      Though you have a point about what hardware they're using to listen.

      I think you are exaggerating. There is an easily discernible (unless you've got 20 year old audio gear maybe) difference between a CD ripped to FLAC and a cd ripped to 128kbps MP3. CD tracks are 1,411.2kbps uncompressed, while mp3 are 128kbps compressed. The bigger question is who uses such a low bitrate on their mp3's these days? I haven't come across any that low in years.

    28. Re:huh by kelemvor4 · · Score: 1

      d'oh. Sorry, I meant to respond to GP.... [flog]me[/flog]

    29. Re:huh by xaxa · · Score: 1

      Oh and as for earplugs? can't wear 'em, they throw the tone off so damned bad it makes me literally trip over my own fingers.

      The yellow foam things are crap, but have you tried musicians' earplugs? I'm not a musician, but I have some £15 ones which I use at gigs, concerts and nightclubs. They don't seem to change the tone -- they just make everything quieter.

      Musicians I know have ones costing £50, £100 +.

    30. Re:huh by xaxa · · Score: 1

      Hearing recovers just fine, given time.

      It does?

      Then how come, 8 years later, I still have occasional tinnitus after staying way too close to the speakers at a metal concert?

    31. Re:huh by canadian_right · · Score: 1

      So what? What do you think is the dynamic range of most home speakers or headphones?

      That is so ignorant I laughed out loud when I read it.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    32. Re:huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chances are with 192/24 it still wont feel live. This is more to do with the speaker/dac/amp/headphone setup you are using since sound doesnt diffuse into space from a three dimensional resonating object the way it does from a few transducers. Hifi will never sound exactly live.

    33. Re:huh by Pf0tzenpfritz · · Score: 2

      I have been playing bass and guitars in a lot of bands for 25 years now. I never wore earplugs, safety belts or diapers when playing. My practicing amp has 400W. I should be stone deaf but still my "low-pass" kicks in at no less than 21kHz. I remember a recent field study by AES (or REA?) that basically says that retired musicians' or recording engineers' ears are a lot better than average. What makes people deaf seems to be passive exposure to monotonous, permanent noise. Watching TV at way too loud levels while reading, for example, is a safe way to ruin your ears. Obviously the ear adapts and protects itself when actively listening.

      --
      Oh, the beautiful gloss of greality!
    34. Re:huh by proxima · · Score: 1

      And that's because of the simple fact that a 44.1 KHz sample rate isn't fast enough to catch the details of sounds

      That's not a limitation of FLAC as a codec; you can certainly generate higher sample rate files if you want to.

      --
      "The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
    35. Re:huh by sahonen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What makes you think that whatever you're hearing has anything to do with that one specific variable (the sample rate) and nothing to do with any of the millions of other other variables (microphone selection and placement, preamps, mixers, A/D converters, processing, your D/A converter, amplifier and speaker system) inherent to the process of recorded music?

      Typically, when a single person experiences reality in a way that the majority of people don't, we consider them delusional, yes.

      If you want to not be considered delusional, pass a double-blind ABX test where A is a direct feed from an analog signal source and B is the same source being run through an A/D and D/A conversion at 44.1/16bit.

      --
      Make me a friend and I'll mod you up
    36. Re:huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      44.1kbps sample rate means a maximum audio frequency of 22kHz. Unless you are capable of hearing above 22kHz, you really shouldn't be able to hear any difference between a lossless digital recording and the live sound itself, all other things being equal.

      If you can hear above 22kHz - congratulations! I'm jealous, it's like being able to see UV.

    37. Re:huh by speculatrix · · Score: 1

      there's good evidence that a single exposure to overly loud distorted sound causes some level of permanent hearing damage, which is accumulative.
      the more distorted the sound, the more the damage.

      A full orchestra playing at full steam can be incredibly loud, but far less likely to damage hearing than a rock band using distortion effects into overloaded speakers.

    38. Re:huh by speculatrix · · Score: 1

      Hearing recovers just fine, given time. The ear is much better at healing than had been thought at one time
      It is? I thought it was the other way round, that hearing damage has been found to be accumulative, and irreversible.

      What does NOT heal with time is the brain's ability to process sound
      Actually, the human brain is plastic, in the sense that it can adapt to new things very readily, so that even a stroke victim's brain will relay its circuits to work round damaged areas, and so recovery in hearing is more likely to be attributed to the brain compensating for hearing problems.

    39. Re:huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not "delusion" ; it is mathematical proven facts --> Shannon theorem.

    40. Re:huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Have you ever heard a direct analog signal from a microphone, using great speakers, with no intervening recording stage at all?

      You would quickly realise that the fidelity problem is with microphones, and loudspeakers, not the recording medium.
      Putting a 16/44.1 digital conversion stage in between really does not make much difference.

    41. Re:huh by steveha · · Score: 1

      Hearing recovers just fine, given time. The ear is much better at healing than had been thought at one time.

      This is a bold claim, and I would like a citation to back it up, please.

      I will counter with my own bold claim: if you listen to noise that is energetic enough to rip hair cells, you permanently lose the hearing from those hair cells. It won't come back.

      Here's a citation. This citation talks about the hope of overcoming the above, someday. Mouse hair cells were damaged, and some hair cells sort of partially regrew but the hearing never came back. They hope to find a way to encourage this process to restore some hearing, but that is a hope and not present reality.

      http://report.nih.gov/NIHfactsheets/ViewFactSheet.aspx?csid=94

      Wikipedia confirms it: in mammals, destroyed inner hair cells structures do not regenerate.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereocilia_(inner_ear)#Destruction_of_stereocilia

      For the sake of your hearing, don't expose yourself to any sounds with sufficient energy to tear your hair cells. Maybe in 20 years doctors will have a way to fix this. Why risk it?

      I read a posting here on Slashdot. A guy said he used to be able to hear very high-pitched sounds that other people couldn't hear; he must have been hearing over 20 kHz or so. He went to a Motorhead performance and was deaf for two days. His hearing came back but he had lost his unusual ability to hear high frequencies. Reading this story, I was sad.

      When I am at a loud music performance or in a loud movie, I stuff some tissue paper in my ears. Not enough that I can't hear; just enough that it isn't deafening.

      steveha

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    42. Re:huh by steveha · · Score: 1

      I should be stone deaf but still my "low-pass" kicks in at no less than 21kHz.

      For your sake, I'm glad. I would rather you have good hearing than bad, even if it makes you the exception that proves the rule.

      I know that the ear takes certain measures to protect itself in the presence of loud sounds. Perhaps your ear is better at this than most.

      But seriously, no one (and I include you) should put your hearing at risk. If you ever do tear any inner hair cells, you will have a notch in your hearing that cannot be fixed with current medical technology. Why risk it?

      steveha

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    43. Re:huh by nobodie · · Score: 1

      I was in a completely unrelated industry for most of my life and I can tell you unequivocally that most people can't tell the difference between excellent anything and barely OK anything. Cars, furniture, music,movies, food, mixed drinks, wine, water, etc. etc. CHoose a category and most people can't tell any difference that whatever-philes will gladly die over. This does not say that the -philes are wrong or stupid, just that we have achieved a worldwhere the general populace has taste that is controled by advertising.

      That's right, you choose things based on what has been advertised to you in a way you can accept. I was in the grocery store the other day and paused to consider laundry detergents. I have been away from the US for long enough to not recognize the packages anymore so it took a moment. A woman stopped and told me that a detergent at the end of the line was the best and that I would get a discount today if I bought it. So I did.

      On the ride home I heard a soft news story about this being the new ad medium. Homeless or unemployed people given the job of making these personal connection advertisements. I fell for it, so don't think I am laughing at anybody about it, or feeling superior. The detergent was, of course, no better than any other on the shelves. But it was well advertised.

      --
      Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
    44. Re:huh by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Got the ringing in the ears yet? I have that occasionally, not from my own playing mind you, but AC/DC Who Made Who tour 86 did that. One of the local DJs about 2 weeks after the concert, which FYI he waited two weeks because one of his buds went and it took that long for him to stop going "HUH? WHAT?" said "For all you guys that went to the AC concert, now that your hearing is back i want to play something for you. This is a recording i made by sticking my mike out the window and remember this studio is TWENTY FIVE MILES AWAY from the concert hall, now listen" and he fires up this tape and sure enough you hear "The video games they play me" just as clear as if it was on a car stereo in the lot LOL!

      While I don't use a low pass i do have a Trace Elliot (one of the last good British ones before they got bought by Peavey and ruined) with a nice 7 band and use that to give me a nice response without all that ultra low end "rumble". Between that and the compressor on my Zoom pedal (B1X, if you haven't tried one please do, they are great pedals) I try to keep the ultra low rumble to a minimum which you really have to watch when you play 5 string.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    45. Re:huh by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Oh man I hate what I call "guitarists that pretend to be bass players" as that is usually the ones doing that lame ass 'bomp bomp bomp" crap. i try to have the bass line be singable, I look at something like "sitting on the dock of the bay" or "freewill" as REAL bass playing and what I try my damnedest to do. Now as for noise cancelling? last i checked you are talking about close to $3000 for a set that will work on stage and most of us don't have an extra $3k to plonk down, not when gas is $4 a gallon and we got bills to pay. I mean I'd love to have that, hell i'd love to go to Fullerton CA and tell the Fender custom shop they are gonna build my dream bass but sadly i doubt either one of those are gonna happen anytime soon. Maybe our next album will become a youtube hit and I can do both of those things but right now its just not in the cards.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    46. Re:huh by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 1

      this.

      If you have never heard really good speakers and you can't afford them, then don't seek them out because somehow you "remember" what they sounded like and everything else sounds like crap thenceforward.

      So also with MP3 vs CDs. CDs are an effectively perfect reproduction of the music ( please analog people, not now...) and if you listen to the music you love on them and you're just of average sensitivity or better, you'll hurl your ipod / mp3 player out the window. So don't do it and you'll stay happy.

      I "discovered" this when I foolishly started to order my existing CD collection as MP3 and AAC. Big fucking mistake and a total waste of money. Literally, I just erased what I bought.

      My only problem is Sony et al have given up making *really good* CD players. Before 2000, you could buy extremely nice, brushed aluminum, ultra-thin unskippable portable CD players . With a pair of say Grado 325s (about 350 bucks open air high fidelity cans) you could have a full blown audiophile experience pumped directly into your ear equivalent to a high end home stereo system and $3000 dollar speakers. Now CD players are plastic crapola.

      Here's the bottom line to all this. People in their teens and twenties are the ones who sustain the music industry. The purpose of music to most of these people is to serve as a shared electronic fire around which they gather while sharing their lives thoughts hopes frustrations and bodies. Shitty compression techniques like MP3 does not interfere with that in the least, and the more convenient it is to listen and share music, actually, the better that market is served.

      Audiophiles have more than a touch of the Aspergers about them- they don't always *get* the larger social context that music exists in and prefer to contemplate wave form charts showing a speakers distortion levels at very high and low frequencies yadda yaddda yadda.

      Music exists to be shared between people as a way of invoking an inexpressibly complex set of emotions and thoughts very directly. Thus the iconic image of the power of music for a generation -or two -is John Cusak in Say Anything standing in the rain holding aloft his shitty boom box blaring Peter Gabriel thus:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j379JbL-xM

    47. Re:huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dated a native woman and you're not kidding. Holy crap that's some high-octane jealousy.

    48. Re:huh by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0NYQC_sCPs

      This is not the greatest song in the world, this just a tribute.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    49. Re:huh by Musc · · Score: 1

      As it damn well should be.

      That's pretty subjective. As is your use of the word "crap."

      I'm confused... Yes I agree these things are at least pretty subjective. What I dont get is: why do you care?
      All of life is subjective. The only objective things are facts, which we can only know through our senses. And since our senses can lie, we don't know for certain that the way we see reality matches the way reality really is. Our sense are subjective. All we know is what we sense. EVERYTHING IS SUBJECTIVE, for all intense and purposes.

      I'm not trying to attack you or insult you, I am genuinely trying to understand why you go around to slashdot articles randomly tagging comments with stuff like "what you just said is subjective, so your argument is invalid." I mean, if a clinically insane person went around saying that aliens had implanted radio antennae in the fillings of his teeth, this is subjective. Obviously this did not truly happen in an objective sense. But the pattern of your previous posts leads me to conclude that you would have the insane person euthanized for being subjective, rather than do the compassionate thing and try to understand why his subjective worldview is so bizarre, and work with him to clear up his delusion

      I genuinely enjoy reading your posts, and I have for the past several months. I enjoy them because they appear to be calculated to be as offensive as humanly possible, as well as the polar opposite of logic, common sense, and basic decency. I wonder, when you go to a post about people who kill themselves because they were bullied, why is it that your reponse is to blame the victim for being sensitive (a condition he may have no control over)? Your stated reponse is that you value freedom of speech more than human life. I sincerely hope that I am grossly misunderstanding your posts, because if taken at face value, you are a preciously intelligent 14 year old who thinks his intelligence makes up for the lack of decades of life experience. Of course, this is speculation, so I'm probably wrong. But the fact that you never had an ISP prior to broadband is a dead giveaway that you are a young child with big ideas, unless you watched all your friends use BBSs and then dialup while you sat around with no internet.

      --
      Hamsters are at least as feathery as penguins. HamLix
    50. Re:huh by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      All of life is subjective. The only objective things are facts, which we can only know through our senses. And since our senses can lie, we don't know for certain that the way we see reality matches the way reality really is. Our sense are subjective. All we know is what we sense. EVERYTHING IS SUBJECTIVE, for all intense and purposes.

      I've previously answered something similar to this. I feel that questioning your very existence and thoughts is a waste of time. You'd likely end up in an infinite loop. I don't expect people to do that, even if what you said holds some degree of truth. All I ask for is to mark simple things that are subjective as subjective. Even that is subjective.

      "what you just said is subjective, so your argument is invalid."

      Straw man. That isn't what I'm saying.

      Some people truly believe that what they're saying is objective (people who believe in absolute morals, for instance). If you state something as a fact that I believe is subjective, I'll point out that I believe it's subjective.

      But the pattern of your previous posts leads me to conclude that you would have the insane person euthanized

      Really?

      I enjoy them because they appear to be calculated to be as offensive as humanly possible

      I don't find them offensive at all. I coincidentally hold viewpoints which are offensive to certain people.

      as well as the polar opposite of logic

      Oh? That's not too surprising to me that you'd say something like this about someone you disagree with. Most of my posts are merely stating my opinions. I do not see what is illogical about that.

      common sense

      Is this an appeal to popularity? I don't find it useful to listen to this "common sense." The "common" part, anyway.

      basic decency

      Your standards.

      why is it that your reponse is to blame the victim for being sensitive

      I do blame the victim even if they have no control over it. I also blame the perpetrator. But whether or not I think action should be taken against them is judged by me on a case by case basis.

      Your stated reponse is that you value freedom of speech more than human life.

      I do not believe that something should be banned because of what a few people do (commit suicide and other such things).

      you are a preciously intelligent 14 year old who thinks his intelligence makes up for the lack of decades of life experience.

      That sounds like both an assumption and a generalization. Unless you have the ability to read minds, of course.

      And what do you mean by "life experience"? How is it relevant to my comments or my beliefs? And why are you bringing age into this?

      But the fact that you never had an ISP prior to broadband

      How did you come to such a conclusion?

      is a dead giveaway that you are a young child with big ideas

      Even if the above were true, do you have any idea how many technologically illiterate people there are? Of course, I do not know the exact number, but is it not possible that someone who isn't a child could have not had anything other than broadband? Is it not possible that they could have waited until much, much later to even get a computer in their homes? Some live(d) just fine without computers.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    51. Re:huh by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      I do not believe that something should be banned because of what a few people do (commit suicide and other such things).

      Yes, I greatly value freedom of speech. Some might even call me an extremist in that regard. I do not care. For a long time I have held those beliefs. Perhaps I'm simply too "closed-minded" to change them, depending on how you look at it. But are you trying to insinuate that there are no adult 'extremists'?

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    52. Re:huh by Musc · · Score: 1

      I reread my post and realized it was a bit overly rude, so I thank you for responding calmly.

      I'd like to explain why the age issue is important. I don't know if slashdot has a way of pulling up stories from the mid 1990s, but back then I was a teenager posting on slashdot, my arguments, opinions, and points were identical to the way yours currently are. I thought I had the whole world figured out, as I was a smarter than average kid. Everything is subjective, you make your own reality by manipulating your own mind, copyright is evil, freedom trumps all, etc.
      I argued about this on slashdot every day for years, and had a blast doing it.

      Since that time, (I'm now 31) my life experiences have shown me the reality of many things. I now consider every one of those opinions I once had to be fatally flawed, because they lead to trouble when I try to apply them in my life and when I see them applied in other people's lives. Now, you may have your opinions for reasons unrelated to age. Perhaps you are a 45 year old software engineer with slightly extreme opinions. It just so happens that your opinions match those that me and my friends had at age 14, and we all grew out of it.

      Often young people don't like to be told "you'll understand when you are older", even though that is the most appropriate answer.
      Therefore the best response is to brush you off like a kid trying to provoke the adults, because that's what I see happening.
      So since you insist you are not a child, just come out and state your age, and give the reasons for your opinions, and a rational discussion might be possible.

      Now I fully expect a 45 year old to reply to this pointing out how young and naive I am, but that I won't understand till I'm older :)
      Now I'm not a mind reader and my thoughts on this could be one hundred percent wrong. However, there is a great deal of evidence to back up my point, so the burden is on you to show that you have logical reasons for your opinions beyond being merely young and naive. Every time you are accused of being young, you say "how can you be so sure"? To me that is an admission of guilt. If you were not a child, you would probably just come out and say so.

      --
      Hamsters are at least as feathery as penguins. HamLix
    53. Re:huh by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      but back then I was a teenager posting on slashdot, my arguments, opinions, and points were identical to the way yours currently are.

      I hope you don't believe that this invalidates anything I believe. Mentioning someone's age doesn't invalidate anything that they say. It's just an ad hominem attack depending on how it's used.

      I thought I had the whole world figured out

      Even as an adult, I do not believe this. I do not believe this is true for anyone.

      Everything is subjective

      Not my claim.

      copyright is evil

      I do not believe in absolute morals, but it's true that I don't care for copyright.

      freedom trumps all

      Depends on the freedom. And it's just my opinion.

      But you were probably talking about yourself, there.

      Often young people don't like to be told "you'll understand when you are older", even though that is the most appropriate answer

      If I had a kid, I'd teach them that this is, I believe, one of the most inappropriate non-answers that you can possibly receive. It assumes not only that the person making such an argument is correct, but that the person in question actually will agree when they're older (cannot be known unless someone can see into the future), that they don't understand now but simply disagree, and that there are no adults or people older than yourself that disagree.

      And, I think worst of all, is that it proves nothing. I can literally use that argument to "prove" anything I please. "The world is flat. You'll understand that I'm right when you're older." Of course, I believe the suitable response to this would be to demonstrate that the world is indeed not flat, but that's exactly my point.

      The only time I think it's valid is when you say, "Well, maybe you'll understand when you're older." That doesn't make so many assumptions. It only acknowledges a future possibility. That might be what you meant it to mean, but I've often seen the other version utilized by people who do not feel like explaining something and/or feel that ad hominem attacks prove their conclusions.

      So since you insist you are not a child, just come out and state your age

      Why would it matter? No matter what I say, you have no easy way to validate my claims (or invalidate them, for that matter). I could be quite easily lying.

      And I try to be as vague as possible when talking about myself. Privacy is also something that I value greatly.

      and give the reasons for your opinions

      You do not agree with some of my opinions? I wonder how many people that's true for. There are seemingly many religious extremists, fanatics, and extremists that have seemingly no other reason for believing what they do outside of mere preference. Not all of them are children. Many of them are not.

      What constitutes as a "reason"? What about the fact that it's something I prefer the most? Are preferences not a reason? If not, why? What makes your opinions any more "reasonable"?

      Now I fully expect a 45 year old to reply to this pointing out how young and naive I am, but that I won't understand till I'm older :)

      You'll understand why you're wrong when you're older.

      However, there is a great deal of evidence to back up my point

      That really depends on what qualifies as "evidence" to you. The "evidence" you've shown me so far hasn't been too convincing to me. In fact, you mentioned "life experience" earlier, but seemingly could not imagine a scenario where an adult could have never had anything other than broadband.

      I could come up with some arbitrary standards to "prove" that you're a child, but unless I could actually prove you're a child (Why does it even matter?), I don't think that would accomplish much.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    54. Re:huh by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      It assumes not only that the person making such an argument is correct, but that the person in question actually will agree when they're older (cannot be known unless someone can see into the future), that they don't understand now but simply disagree, and that there are no adults or people older than yourself that disagree.

      Ah... I also forgot to mention: even if it's true that the person will understand when they're older, the fact that their beliefs will change in the future is not an indication that their current beliefs are wrong. Their future beliefs might be the wrong ones.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
  2. obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Hearing the difference now isn't the reason to encode to FLAC. FLAC uses lossless compression, while MP3 is 'lossy'. What this means is that for each year the MP3 sits on your hard drive, it will lose roughly 12kbps, assuming you have SATA - it's about 15kbps on IDE, but only 7kbps on SCSI, due to rotational velocidensity. You don't want to know how much worse it is on CD-ROM or other optical media.

    I started collecting MP3s in about 2001, and if I try to play any of the tracks I downloaded back then, even the stuff I grabbed at 320kbps, they just sound like crap. The bass is terrible, the midrange...well don't get me started. Some of those albums have degraded down to 32 or even 16kbps. FLAC rips from the same period still sound great, even if they weren't stored correctly, in a cool, dry place. Seriously, stick to FLAC, you may not be able to hear the difference now, but in a year or two, you'll be glad you did.

    1. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Did you even look for a job today?

    2. Re:obligatory... by interkin3tic · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      it's about 15kbps on IDE, but only 7kbps on SCSI, due to rotational velocidensity

      Sir, I suspect you are lying to me.

    3. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Too much technobabble. Can you give me a car analogy instead?

    4. Re:obligatory... by binarylarry · · Score: 5, Funny

      No, it's true. Velocidensity is a very important consideration to an audiophile.

      You can sometimes improve velocidensity by using very expensive, high quality wooden knobs on all the stereo equipment. The superior quality wood's acoustogravity spreads out the reverberations and diminishes the effects of compression and SNR gain.

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    5. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      "for each year the MP3 sits on your hard drive, it will lose roughly 12kbps"
      ok so 12 kbps / 8 * 60 * 60 * 24 * 365.25 = 47.3 GB of audio stream loss per year. niceee

    6. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time to dust off those old physics books there buddy. Rotational velocidensity should be right before sinusoidal thermogravitation and just after polarmagnetophotorefractionessence theory.

    7. Re:obligatory... by cpu6502 · · Score: 0, Redundant

      What on earth did I just read?

      Digital data does not degrade Mr. Audiophile. If it was 256k when you got the MP3 it will still be 256k. Though the CD-R might self-erase (the dye fades) and become completely unplayable. I recommend only store-bought CDs (they are pressed with permanent pits). Or just save money and stream your music off youtube for free. ;-)

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    8. Re:obligatory... by Anaerin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Of course. Cars made of plain, cheap, sheet steel might look great when you first get them, but store them in a leaky garage for a few years and they'll be rusty and broken, and a real problem to drive. Cars made of "Exotic" materials like Aluminium and Carbon Fibre are more expensive to purchase initially, but if you left them in the same leaky garage there would be no (or at least fewer) problems with rusting or breaking down.

      Does this fulfill my nerd quotia for the day?

    9. Re:obligatory... by zimage · · Score: 5, Funny

      What on earth did I just read?

      Digital data does not degrade Mr. Audiophile. If it was 256k when you got the MP3 it will still be 256k. Though the CD-R might self-erase (the dye fades) and become completely unplayable. I recommend only store-bought CDs (they are pressed with permanent pits). Or just save money and stream your music off youtube for free. ;-)

      Mod parent "Doesn't understand humor".

    10. Re:obligatory... by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 5, Funny

      Tip: put a magnet on top of your hard drive. If bits do fall off they'll stick to the magnet so you can recycle them. These are also known as "sticky bits."

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    11. Re:obligatory... by FFOMelchior · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Mod parent "Whooooosh".

      FTFY

    12. Re:obligatory... by Titoxd · · Score: 1

      That sound you hear is a 256-kbps WHOOOSH...

    13. Re:obligatory... by CaptainLugnuts · · Score: 0

      Hah! N00b needs to brush up on history. Velocidensity is a well known interwebs term.

    14. Re:obligatory... by Anaerin · · Score: 5, Funny

      Don't fall into the trap of switching to SSDs to try and escape the velocidensity issues, either. What with electron drift, bit rot, transistor breakdown and silicon-isolator tunneling issues, you can get up to 12kbps loss, depending on NAND structure and refresh frequency of your SSD. And heaven forbid you place your SSD in anything but an isolated Faraday cage - solar ejection events can cause havoc with silicon-based storage systems!

    15. Re:obligatory... by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Static white noise sounds actually better in 128k.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    16. Re:obligatory... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      Oh give CPU6502 a break. He's only an 8 bit. His algorithms run pretty slow.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    17. Re:obligatory... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      While we're at protips, watch your CPU for leaks, it might let the magic smoke escape. Yes, there's magic smoke in every CPU. Proof: If you see it escape, it stops working.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    18. Re:obligatory... by Beelzebud · · Score: 1, Funny

      This is a... Is this a week day?

    19. Re:obligatory... by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      That WHOOSH sound you just heard is the sonic boom left in the wake of a fleet of super sonic jets that just flew right over your head.

    20. Re:obligatory... by interkin3tic · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well I do use monster cables, so I don't think I need to worry about that.

    21. Re:obligatory... by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      PS did I say monster cables? I meant Pear Cables. I would have written that correctly, but I forgot to drape my pear cables around my keyboard.

    22. Re:obligatory... by cpu6502 · · Score: 0

      Maybe I should upgrade to a 65816 (same thing a Super Nintendo and Apple IIgs uses)? ;-)

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    23. Re:obligatory... by philip.paradis · · Score: 1

      Do you like apples?

      --
      Write failed: Broken pipe
    24. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Do not let that aggression stand, man.

    25. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The magent on top just grabs the 0 bits, which float up despite gravity. You need a second magnet on the bottom for the heavier 1 bits.

    26. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Velocidensity...isn't that a creature from Jurassic Park?

    27. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      What? No thermal enclosure? Just 2 degrees celcius variation can manifest noticeable stochastic interference, not to mention the loss of the warmth from the tube amplifier.

    28. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I tried storing an mp3 on a usb stick once. The rotational loss was so bad it started bending the socket. Now I can't hardly plug anything into that usb socket again!

    29. Re:obligatory... by dreamchaser · · Score: 4, Funny

      Why are you all ignoring the very real problem of entropic noise dilution caused by cosmic radiation and the natural tendency of any ordered system to move towards a state of increasing entropy? That is the real problem. Think of the children! They will not be able to hear the varied subtleties of such great hits as "Love Shack" and "Mickey" in all of their original splendor if this keeps up. Think of the children.

    30. Re:obligatory... by cinnamon+colbert · · Score: 5, Informative

      you do know that the propellor at the front of the airplane is just a fan to keep the pilot cool ? I mean, when the fan stops turning, the pilot invariably breaks out in sweat.. there are 3 good things for a pilot: a good landing, a good orgasm, and a good bowel movement A night landing on a carrier is one of those rare moments in life where you get all 3 at thesame time

    31. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      12kbps per year absolutely does not equal 47.3GBps per year, no matter how fancy your dimensional analysis is.

    32. Re:obligatory... by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

      Hah! The old bit rot eh? Should have used monster cables. A bit of homeopathy, a good chiropractor and Bob's your uncle. You'll soon have that fixed and your music will sound good as snu.

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
    33. Re:obligatory... by Kreigaffe · · Score: 4, Funny

      Mod parent correct but incomplete! SSD drives can actually be improved down to less than 6kbps loss a year if you're willing to drop top dollar. It's a bit cutting edge, so I'll spare the gory details.. but you can gravimetrically contain stray electron decay by routing the phononic wavefront through an electroencabulator. It's a bit tricky to get set correctly, though -- you can't adjust it while in use or you risk collapsing the function and all quantum effects begin to fail. I learned THAT lesson the hard way!

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    34. Re:obligatory... by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry friend, but you are only getting half the sound because you only have it half right. you see you are forgetting about the bits man, its ALL about the bits which is why you need to have full optical everything and only buy Monster cables because every millimeter that the music has to travel on them crappy copper wires its losing bits to friction, so even though your FLAC has all the bits on the drive you are losing bits in the playing!

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    35. Re:obligatory... by ddd0004 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Please sir, I only use knobs made from the finest of unicorn horn. It may have cost several million dollars but once you hear the warmth on the midrange of the complete catalog of Right Said Fred you'll understand why.

    36. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      pff.. snes had a 65c816 a custom design bitch!

    37. Re:obligatory... by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Funny

      This is why it's so important to upgrade to audiophile-grade digital audio and network cables. You really can't afford any more bit degradation on top of the time-related rot.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    38. Re:obligatory... by Ihmhi · · Score: 4, Funny

      Static white noise sounds actually better in 128k.

      Yeah, I downgraded the encoding on my dad's Shania Twain MP3s first chance I got.

    39. Re:obligatory... by tuxicle · · Score: 2

      Oh you can fix that easy - just use a Golden Sound Intelligent Chip, I'm sure they've upgraded the technology to work with SSDs too. Of course, there's always the old standby, the Altmann Tube-o-lator, I suppose it makes all the MP3 files stored on the NAND flash take on a warm "tube sound".

    40. Re:obligatory... by WalkingBear · · Score: 1

      I prefer to encase the entire drive in lucite. That way the bits are immutable. No loss.

    41. Re:obligatory... by domatic · · Score: 1

      You owe me for a new keyboard and monitor.

    42. Re:obligatory... by KGIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm pretty much a newbie in the audiophile world so, if I may, I have a question...

      Does this mean I should go ahead and buy new power outlets?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    43. Re:obligatory... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Not really. I still need to know how much the bits weigh - so, could you compare them to elephants and blue whales for me?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    44. Re:obligatory... by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Funny

      And while we're at it, ya know, Navy pilots are in fact internet addicts.

      They break out in cold sweat when their screen says NO CARRIER.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    45. Re:obligatory... by prash_n_rao · · Score: 4, Funny

      Power outlets?? God! You are a newbie! Do you really like those 50/60 Hz hums and their harmonics? Batteries or capacitors, man! That's the way to get clean power.

      --
      This is not my sig.
    46. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't need all that fancy equipment. Since I bought Rane's Pseudoacoustic Infector, I'll never need to worry about source quality ever again.

    47. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Oh give CPU6502 a break. He's only an 8 bit. His algorithms run pretty slow

      Don't worry... On the C64 they're doing/faking anything these days..

      As a matter of fact C64 demos have reached the quality PC demos had before everything on PC turned into a pointless wild compo..

    48. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought sonic booms were just Guile

    49. Re:obligatory... by elgol · · Score: 4, Funny

      The sloshing of ions in batteries reflect themselves as a disturbing muddying of the high registers. Capacitors may help, but only if they have graphene concentric plates with vacuum dielectric. The plates must be closer than the Casimir distance to prevent virtual particle pair formation from adding a faint, but clearly perceptible haze.

    50. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Airplane food (if you would call that) is actually design to slow bowel movements.

    51. Re:obligatory... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Just quit being cheap and upgrade to a full 6802.

    52. Re:obligatory... by dr2chase · · Score: 1

      I hope your optical cables are made of sapphire, and not glass. Everyone knows that glass flows slowly over time, which ultimately leads to a pear-shaped fiber cross-section and bit disequalization.

    53. Re:obligatory... by tepples · · Score: 1

      pff.. snes had a 65c816 a custom design bitch!

      The core of the Ricoh 5A22 is still a stock 65816. The only thing custom about it is that much of the Super NES northbridge is on the same die as the CPU.

    54. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does this fulfill my nerd quotia for the day?

      I don't knooow... Your UID is a little high....Wish I was..

    55. Re:obligatory... by WheezyJoe · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. Mine include a gold/chrome/rutherfordium alloy with a micro-diamond coating (check e-Bay). Works great. But you're a fool if you aren't purchasing premium power from the grid. Your typical utility electricity is full of spikes and mischarged electrons (known as "radicals") that gunk up your outlets, leading to distortion and hum you can hear from these little sparks hitting on your plugs. Even buying natural, organic power from wind farms can get gunky if your local utility wires are old and rusty. If you aren't sure, best to roll your own: solar, wind, geothermal, radon gas, whatever you have around.

      --
      Take it easy, Charlie, I've got an Angle...
    56. Re:obligatory... by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      That is why you should use glass that is hand rolled in an oxygen free environment by Brazilian women (Cuban women are best of course, as the cigar rolling experience gives them a more even pressure but the stupid embargo keeps us from having truly perfect cables) and then throw them away twice a year. You see the problem with the sapphire is you aren't taking into account the atomic decay which will slowly but surely cause atomic gaps in the crystal structure and those gaps work like microscopic potholes for the bits to fall in.

      Then of course there is the other gotcha nobody thinks about...electricity! The best electricity comes from a purified oxygen free silver line run straight off the nearest nuclear plant which ideally should be less than 1 mile away, the closer the better of course, but that isn't practical for most as there are only so many homes next to nuclear plants so in a pinch a Monster brand generator running pure ethanol with a very short pure silver line running into a bank of silver zinc batteries (make sure you get 99.9% pure on both the silver AND the zinc though, some unscrupulous companies will skimp on the quality of the zinc) will keep the electrons from sagging so that they will have the purest amperage when feeding your bits down the optical line.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    57. Re:obligatory... by Anaerin · · Score: 2

      Of course. Given that 1GiB of data (When held in RAM) weighs approximately 391 femtograms (given an 50% distribution of 1s and 0s), an average African Elephant would weigh the same as be ~ 8,177.6 Yobibytes.

      Do please check my math, if you so desire. - Electron mass being 9.10938215 × 10^-31kg, 10^5 electrons in a bit, And an average African Elephant weighing 3.6 tonnes.

    58. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HaH! you think we were all born yesterday? It sounded plausible up until electroencabulator. I think you are making shit up! (You Tube)

    59. Re:obligatory... by dr2chase · · Score: 1

      I thought you wanted a superconducting feed, cooled with Helium 3, not 4, because the lower atomic weight provides better heat transfer.

    60. Re:obligatory... by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      Actually those won't be the issue for you, as long as you don't accidentally allow other people closer than about 17.8 meters to your equipment. You see, the natural current condensation that is transferred through your power outlets has already harmonised with your own natural molecular frequency, so from your perspective you don't want to disturb the gentle balance you already have there. Just make sure to wrap a few pieces of tin foil around yourself to achieve electrostatic balance as well (aluminium would work, but it's increases the tremble a bit), you don't want static anywhere near yourself.

      But if other people come closer than the mentioned distance, it is likely to cause disharmonisation of the wave field particles, then you are in trouble, you'd need bring a large container of argon and flush the place.

      Incidentally, women carry more of the disharmonization charge, so stay as far as possible, you wouldn't want to spawn a spontaneous electron discharge or cause the high gain/low noise mixing to have current bleeding topology interrupted. You want to keep performance high with the effect of current injection and local oscillator (LO) manual amplification instead.

    61. Re:obligatory... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      ncidentally, women carry more of the disharmonization charge, so stay as far as possible, you wouldn't want to spawn a spontaneous electron discharge or cause the high gain/low noise mixing to have current bleeding topology interrupted.

      Not much chance of that happening. ;)

      And, you guys are a riot. It isn't nice of us to pick on the mentally handicapped though.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    62. Re:obligatory... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      And you are a beautiful human being. Warped, but beautiful. LOL Thanks.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    63. Re:obligatory... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Not much chance of that happening. ;)

      And, you guys are a riot

      -oh. It's all bits and pieces then, how unusual for /.

      It isn't nice of us to pick on the mentally handicapped though.

      - we are very civil, could never be accused by anybody of anything.

    64. Re:obligatory... by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Well it all comes down to balancing price VS performance. i mean sure if you have Bill Gate's money the best thing to do would be to remove the wires completely and have supercooled lasers transmit the bits at the speed of light, which of course keeps you from losing bits as the atoms are kept from bouncing by the subfreezing temps and the energy of the laser keeps them tightly packed an on track, but sadly such perfection is simply out of the price range of all but the top 0.01% so we mere mortals have to make due with what we can get. But thanks to the great work of companies like Monster we can have nearly 80% of the sound quality of laser transmission at only 50% of the cost! they should probably get a Nobel prize for their humanitarian work, bringing such great sound to the masses and all.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    65. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the magnet is strong enough it will hold the bits firmly in place long enough for future preservation.

    66. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very seldom I actually laugh at slashdot "funny" comments, but this was awesome :)

    67. Re:obligatory... by dr2chase · · Score: 1

      Oh hell, if you're going to cheap out on audio performance, you might as well just use coat hangers twisted into wires. Bah! A true audiophile would never compromise on price.

    68. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and you need high-speed entropic-correcting dysprosium-shielded v3.2+ Monster cables, including power, if you can find them. If not, they do allow for specialty ordering; they always aim to please their customer!

    69. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like you grew up watching Voyager. Or, at least, you're very familiar with it.

    70. Re:obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So how many Libraries of Congress is an African elephant?

  3. Musicians demand loudness by cpu6502 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've heard one engineer complain that he mixes the music correctly, with loud and soft passages, but the musicians then demand he make it sound louder. They are not satisfied until the quiet passages are just as loud as the loud passages.

    So basically a CD with 90 db range is compressed to about 10 db (plus clipping off the top of the max volume scale).

    --
    My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    1. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I never noticed that back when I actually listened to CD's, until recently when my friend played Metallica's steaming pile of shit album Death Magnetic in his truck.

      It sounded so loud and compressed, as if it were all played through a powerful and well designed portable radio with a 1.5" speaker.

      Sigh, at least I can still depend on classical music recordings to have that quaint ol' thing called dynamic range.

    2. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Death Magnetic did indeed sound terrible, which is sad since it's Metallica's best album in 15 years. There's a solution though. When the album was released for the Guitar Hero games, they were given the original multi-track mixes, which means that each individual track in the game (vocal, lead, rhythm, bass, drums) was basically the master before the engineers mangled it.

      A bunch of fans were then able to take those multi-tracks and mix their own version of the album, and these went out on torrent sites. I downloaded the Deceifer Remaster, and the album sounds absolutely amazing. I deleted the digital download I actually paid for, because it pales in comparison.

    3. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Hentes · · Score: 3, Funny

      Just tell them it goes up to 11.

    4. Re:Musicians demand loudness by hardie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't think the engineer is working with musicians.

    5. Re:Musicians demand loudness by CaptainLugnuts · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If modern albums had 10db of dynamic range it would be a huge improvement, modern pop has only a couple dB of dynamic range at best. If you look at the waveforms in an editor the songs today are rectangles. Ugh.

    6. Re:Musicians demand loudness by afeeney · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not just the musicians, it's the listeners, especially because of so many listening through earphones. If you listen to music with dynamic variations in an open area, a room, or through speakers, you pay more attention to the softer passages. If you listen through headphones, as often as not, you turn it up to have a constant volume in your ears.

      Some people say that it started with the Wall of Sound, where everybody wanted that massive effect on everything, regardless of whether it was right for the album or song or not, others say that it started later, with boomboxes, but in any case, we've lost one of the most powerful ways to create musical tension and drama. Now there's pretty much only abrupt changes in tempo, which doesn't work for music where you need a constant beat, or suspensions, which only work for a while before they get too self-indulgent.

      Hey! Get off my lawn!

    7. Re:Musicians demand loudness by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      No, no, no! Tell them it goes to 4, so you CAN'T turn it up louder, and you have to live with the dynamics present...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    8. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      CD is 16 bit, 1 bit = 6dB, 16bit offers 96dB dynamic range.

    9. Re:Musicians demand loudness by sidthegeek · · Score: 2

      I think it has to do with the fact that music is often listened to through those earbud headphones, which let in a lot of background noise.

    10. Re:Musicians demand loudness by DigiShaman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Good to know. Thanks for sharing. It's sad that music lovers have to run to a video game to get the best source material though. It further reminds me that just when I think the music industry couldn't get any worse, it does. I shouldn't be surprised, but I am. :(

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    11. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't think it sounded terrible, metal is supposed to be loud, distorted, and all instuments in your face. Same goes for rock and pop. The snare drum sound was different, but that's the snare sound they wanted.

      Let's leave the dynamic range stuff to classical music. That music always has pp or p sections, sometimes with mf sections before the f or ff sections. Occasionally there's an sfz ff type of crescendo. That music is all about dynamic range.

      However, let rock, pop, metal, hip hop and dance music be as loud as possible even with some clipping so long as there isn't any audible clicking in the mix. In that type of music, bass is meant to be heard and felt even at lower volumes, the vocals or midrange instruments should be heard without any one instrument drowning out the other--balanced with the bass--and the treble itself should not seem muted.

      I really don't want sound engineers bringing CDs back to the way they were before--that music sounded pathetically weak unless the receiver was turned up significantly, and the bass instruments were still somewhat muted even if the bass drum had dominant presence. Seriously, put in a compressed dynamic range disc, then listen to the non-compressed dynamic range disc. The compressed dynamic range disc sounds a lot more like it was recorded live, on high power equipment. The non-compressed dynamic range disc sounds like it's flat, with most of the energy of the music sucked away, leaving a very low-volume quite separated music that certainly was not how the artist wanted their music to sound in a lot of cases.

    12. Re:Musicians demand loudness by jsfs · · Score: 2

      That normally happens to me, too. It doesn't help that the human ear will always prefer the louder (acoustically in the room, i.e. moving more air around, not necessarily the more compressed or closer to 0dBFS) version. But because compression sounds louder (and more even in volume), everyone likes it more (and/or mistakes consistency in volume with consistency in pitch, rhythm, or anything else). Unless they're the sort who hate hearing themselves, most will demand more compression. One album I'll be mixing next month has even set a goal to have every song the exact same volume. I've had the pleasure of working with a couple of artists who actually appreciate dynamics, though, and they're my favorite clients.

    13. Re:Musicians demand loudness by BoogeyOfTheMan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sadly, I have to agree with this. I hate having to listen to something at an unreasonably loud volume (for the time/place) just so I can hear the quietest parts, only to have the loudest parts wake everyone in the house, piss off my neighbors, or cause shit to rattle off the shelves (when its not intended).

      Its also one of the reasons I prefer DVD rips to actual DVDs. I usually have a fan on in the house so I have to turn the movie up to be able to actually understand the dialog. And if the source of the media has a lot of range, the explosions, gunshots, or whatever startle the crap out of me. Hell, the first time I watched Braveheart on DVD I jumped off the couch during the scene when he set that wooden keep ablaze, just because it was so much louder than any part of the movie up until that point.

      If we all had ideal sound systems and listening environments with no ambient noise, then yeah, good dynamic range is awesome, otherwise, let me be able to hear the spoken words over my box fan/car noise/noisy neighbors/nearby road/rain storm/etc without having to subject everyone in the neighborhood to whatever I happen to be listening to at the time.

    14. Re:Musicians demand loudness by jd · · Score: 1

      Says who? Doro Pesch (THE Metal Queen), Judas Priest, Iron Maiden -- all use dynamic range and subtlety like nobody else. These are the Gods of Metal and the Gods decide. If the peons in the genre don't use range and subtlety, they aren't True Metal Heads, they're morons.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    15. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Popular music sounds like shit (from the technical standpoint of quality, range, etc.) popular music producers are either:

      A) Hacks that design and market soulless, talentless popular music stars. They have no ear for music, and wouldn't care if they did.
      B) Actual popular musicians who have long since burned out their ears and can't hear anything unless it's too loud.

    16. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 1

      "That music always has pp or p sections, sometimes with mf sections before the f or ff sections. Occasionally there's an sfz ff type of crescendo."

      Look, classical may not be your personal favorite style of music, but that doesn't mean you have to swear about it like that, even if you DID censor it down to initials.
      Keep your FUs to yourself, buddy.

      --
      This space available.
    17. Re:Musicians demand loudness by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      First, waveforms are usually displayed on logarithmic scales (which is what dB is), which means small variations in amplitude represent much larger variations on a linear scale. +3dB is roughly double the amplitude, for example. Second, if you're not zoomed in, it's highly likely, to the point of near certainty, that the resolution of the audio samples far exceeds the resolution of your monitor. Downsampling the audio samples into points on a graph, which is what you see as the waveform, will give you an average of the set of audio samples represented by a given pixel. This averaging can give the appearance of continuous amplitude that isn't necessarily reflected in the audio.

      Not to say that the dynamic range isn't usually compressed into a few db or so -- obviously it is -- but how a track looks zoomed out in a waveform editor isn't necessarily a good indicator of that.

    18. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Tridus · · Score: 1

      How about if I want it to sound "loud", I turn up the knob called "volume"? It's pretty easy to find.

      What do I do if I want to sound like music, instead of monotone noise played through a crappy laptop speaker? Death Magnetic has no fix for that except "Download the Guitar Hero version". The CD version is impossible to listen to because it's so awful.

      --
      -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
    19. Re:Musicians demand loudness by sa1lnr · · Score: 1

      In my experience with on-stage monitors, each musician has only wanted to hear themselves louder.

    20. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I simply cannot believe that 2 versions aren't made for sale. There would be the one that goes out to the masses and radio stations, and then there would be the full range version for people who care. I would pay far more for the latter. I mean, it isn't like these lines of distribution (iTunes) are costing much anymore, and there have been multiple versions of songs for other reasons (radio edit) for years.

    21. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      I think I have the solution for you.

      1. Find an old project for an AM Radio Transmitter. They are out there, you can probably even build one simply by using one of those 20-In-One kits they sell at Radio Shack.

      2. Plug the output from your DVD player into the AM Radio Transmitter.

      3. Find the cheapest AM Table Radio you can find.

      4. Listen to the sound for your film through it.

      Extra points if you find and restore one of those venerable old wooden cabinet radios from the era before Television.

    22. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Nyder · · Score: 1

      Death Magnetic did indeed sound terrible, which is sad since it's Metallica's best album in 15 years. ...

      God punishes those who cut their hair.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    23. Re:Musicians demand loudness by smellotron · · Score: 1

      It's sad that music lovers have to run to a video game to get the best source material though.

      The same thing happened for Muse's Knights of Cydonia: the Guitar Hero track was used for a community remaster. The entirety of Black Holes and Revelations sounds quite nasty through a real sound system, which is sad given the awesomeness of the material.

    24. Re:Musicians demand loudness by reub2000 · · Score: 1

      Pick up a pair of in-ear-monitors. Once they form a good seal, you could be on a noisy subway train, but you can still hear the softer parts of the music pretty well. The only downside is that they tend to get caked with earwax.

    25. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can always reduce the dynamic range during playback. The vast majority of playback devices support this one way or another. By demanding low-fidelity music you are fucking up things for the rest of us. You are part of the problem. Use your volume knobs. Use "quiet mode". Listen to music however you want, just don't insist that the rest of the world does this too.

    26. Re:Musicians demand loudness by smellotron · · Score: 1

      In my experience with on-stage monitors, each musician has only wanted to hear themselves louder.

      That doesn't sound surprising. Hearing yourself perform provides vital feedback to a musician. In an entirely-amplified environment, it's too easy to just lose yourself in a mix, especially in a supporting (i.e. quieter to the audience) role.

    27. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you misspelled "sales drones" as "musicians." There's a popular story that suits tell each other that louder songs sell better; if the musicians are asking for their music recordings to be louder, then they're not artists, they're product manufacturers.

    28. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Just a minute, lets throw some numbers up here, because I think you're off base.

      First, he's talking about "10 dB" vs "a couple dB", so a logarithmic scale in itself isn't a hindrance for measuring that. If the 90dB range (16 bits) is displayed a few dozen pixels high, those are readily distinguishable.

      Second, suppose the waveform display is 1000px wide -- I think few people are running less than 1280x768/1280x1024, so that should be valid as a lower limit. Let's call a typical track 3 minutes, or 200 seconds in round numbers. Now there's four pixels per second -- by Nyquist's theorem, we should see any variation at 2Hz (that's one beat at 120 bpm) or slower.

      So your point is only relevant to amplitude variations on the order of a few hundred ms. If you're calling that dynamic range, well that's technically dynamic range, but it's not what we're talking about; compressors typically don't even operate on that time scale. What we're talking about is the difference over seconds to 10s of seconds -- maybe one verse is louder than another, maybe the verses are sung quietly and the refrain is FUCKING SCREAMED, even variations line-to-line, and these will all show up just fine.

    29. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Production styles have changed over time!

      News at 10.

    30. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      It's fine if you want to run a dynamic-squashing filter on YOUR end when the environment is too noisy or the maximum volume is too low to allow for full dynamic range. That doesn't mean your stored media should be pre-compensated that way. It's easy to do it on the fly, and impossible to undo when permanently applied.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    31. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Ralphus+Maximus · · Score: 1

      I feel your pain. I fixed, or worked around, this problem on movies by using subtitles. I had an S.O. that could not keep her yap shut during a movie. The louder I turned up the volume, the louder she yapped. With the subs on, I caught the movie dialog, plus it bugged the crap out of her. :)

      Cheers,
      RM

      --
      Nobody's as dumb, as I appear to be
    32. Re:Musicians demand loudness by BoogeyOfTheMan · · Score: 1

      Ive tried that too and it does work in certain cases. My biggest problem is that I like to fall asleep while something is playing, and subtitles dont work well with my eyes closed. The worst part is that if I was even a little bit tired, I would fall asleep watching foreign language films, no matter how interested I was in watching it. I think it took me 3 tries to finish Ip Man.

    33. Re:Musicians demand loudness by BoogeyOfTheMan · · Score: 1

      I'm not insisting everyone listen to it the way I like, I am stating the fact that that is how I prefer to listen to it. Why are you insisting that everyone must have high quality sources and equipment? Why dont you keep your high quality sources and equipment and I'll stick with what works for me?

    34. Re:Musicians demand loudness by BoogeyOfTheMan · · Score: 1

      What are my options for doing it on the fly? I use Rhythmbox for music on my PC, Totem for video, and Mortplayer on my android phone for music. I would love to be able to adjust it on the fly so if one of the FLAC files I have starts playing I dont have to just go without hearing the quieter parts.

    35. Re:Musicians demand loudness by NulDevice · · Score: 1

      That's kind of a broad assertion to make. Musicians don't generally demand it. Well, *some* do, I suppose, but a lot just say "hey, master this." Then someone else gets involved - a producer, or exec, or somebody who says "this is going to get played on the radio. It needs to be loud."

      Speaking with my semi-professional mastering engineer hat on, that is, proverbially speaking, when the shit hits the fan.

      There's a secondary issue, though, that I think is intrinsic to the problem: modern pop music, for better or for worse, is generally short, hit-you-with-the-hook-and-chorus-then-get-out-of-the-way type songs. So people aren't really *writing* stuff with dynamic range. It's easy to blame mastering engineers (who are all, as far as I can tell, anti-loudness-wars if for no reason other than they want to preserve their own hearing) or musicians or producers for asking for it loud but...when your song has no quiet parts to start out with, you're going to have a lack of dynamic range no matter how much or little you limit and compress. In isolation, it's fine - a loud 3:30 song with no breaks can be fun and catchy - but stretch that out to a radio block of 5 songs or an album of 10 and suddenly your ears are melting off the side of your head. You can't preserve dynamic range that isn't there.

      --

      ----
      "I used to listen to Null Device before they sold out."

    36. Re:Musicians demand loudness by NulDevice · · Score: 1

      One thing that a lot of people - including a lot of musicians - don't seem to realize is that loudness to the human ear is not an absolute scale. If you play something "loud" for 5 straight minutes eventually your brain will stop processing it as loud. Without a quiet part for contrast, loud stops being loud.

      I've worked with dozens of noise/experimental artists who keep telling me "I want this to sound aggressive!" not realizing that because they didn't put any breaks in the song, by the time you hit minute 3 the listener will have unconsciously and completely tuned out their main intent. You can get away with it in a short song, but it happens pretty fast so without any quiet bits you're basically defeating your purpose.

      It's okay in dance music, I suppose, if your point is to be hearing it on a club system and dancing to it - you're not exactly in an environment going for tension-and-release and listening detail. Still, most well-produced dance music has a breakdown section. In trance, it's the long, beatless middle bit, in dubstep and electrohouse it's a short "drop" - it makes everything after it sound punchier.

      --

      ----
      "I used to listen to Null Device before they sold out."

    37. Re:Musicians demand loudness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have that too, it sounds waaaaaaaaaaay better.

  4. Apple has a "lossless AAC format" by Biff+Stu · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's also known as ALAC. I don't believe that it's an option for the iTunes store, but if you own a CD and want to get it into your iDevice environment, it's a good option.

    1. Re:Apple has a "lossless AAC format" by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

      ALAC =/= AAC (which is owned by MPEG)
      :-)

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    2. Re:Apple has a "lossless AAC format" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ALAC or FLAC are both lossless. So, if you encode a song that makes heavy use of sound-level compression, it will sound just like playing the CD. The sound-level compression may still make the music sound terrible, of course.

      I don't think you are confusing data compression (MP3 vs. ALAC) with sound-level compression, but some people discussing on this thread seem to be doing it.

    3. Re:Apple has a "lossless AAC format" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A good option as long as you are all in favor of vendor lock-in. Fortunately, AAC/ALAC can be transcoded to FLAC with no problems - IF you happen to know how, and have the tools on hand.

      #!/bin/sh
      for f in *.aac;
      do
      echo "Processing $f"
      ffmpeg -i "$f" -ab 900000 "${f%.aac}.flac"
      done

      Also works on m3a files.

    4. Re:Apple has a "lossless AAC format" by MtViewGuy · · Score: 1

      It should be noted that Apple Lossless has been Open Sourced under the Apache license model, so it's no longer a true "proprietary" format.

      Despite what supporters of FLAC say, FLAC has not gotten "traction" for large-scale music sales because only a small number of portable music players support FLAC natively. Meanwhile, every iPod made since 2005, every iPhone and every iPad supports Apple Lossless natively; as such, once record companies start releasing tracks in Apple Lossless, there is already a huge potential market for such such music files.

  5. Quality is subjective by JoeMerchant · · Score: 0

    Hendrix liked feedback, and so did his fans. If bubble-gum popping 0.99 single buying kids like it compressed, let 'em have it that way. They can discover "Unplugged, fresh and undistorted" later.

    Damn shame what happened to The Red Velvet Car (compressed into oblivion), but I guess I'm just getting older faster than the target audience the producers of my favorite artists are aiming for.

    1. Re:Quality is subjective by Hentes · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is not that bad quality records exist, but that good quality records do not.

    2. Re:Quality is subjective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They exist, but they're generally only the older somewhat more obscure discs that go unharmed in the process. Many of the old jazz albums have escaped the process because the studios are too cheap to re-remaster them for CD.

  6. Trusted Source by Linegod · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Neil Young made the same argument last month in Wired. The interviewer was a douchbag, so I'm not going to link to it, but Neil was right, and first.

    --
    -- I care not for your foolish signatures.
    1. Re:Trusted Source by binarylarry · · Score: 5, Funny

      Right, because this issue JUST STARTED RECENTLY.

      Damn those kids and this BRAND NEW PHENOMENON.

      You tell em Neil!

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    2. Re:Trusted Source by yodleboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I was thinking the same thing. The tone of the article is that MP3 or lossy formats are the culprit. This compression for loudness thing started long before digital music became popular and no doubt they are using the same mix regardless of the final format. What's the old saying, Garbage In, Garbage Out?

    3. Re:Trusted Source by chispito · · Score: 1

      Neil Young was the first what?

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    4. Re:Trusted Source by johnny+cashed · · Score: 1

      He also said "get off my lawn!"

    5. Re:Trusted Source by joocemann · · Score: 1

      This issue has been going on since the 90s at least. In 01, I couldn't help but notice how smashed 'get your freak on' by Missy Elliot is.

    6. Re:Trusted Source by StikyPad · · Score: 3, Funny

      What's the old saying, Garbage In, Garbage Out?

      Damn, I thought that was a new saying after reading it in a Wired article recently.

    7. Re:Trusted Source by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      The term was used in a relative sense. Shorthand for:

      "Of the two who made the assertion, Neal Young was the first."

    8. Re:Trusted Source by dr2chase · · Score: 1

      Since the 80s at least. Was a college radio DJ back then, Blue Oyster Cult had a Godzilla single that after the first few seconds held the VU meters still at a single reading. Very useful for calibrating your levels and power output without your listeners knowing you were playing a test signal.

  7. Re:FLAC is for archiving. by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

    >>>320kbps should be enough for anyone.

    I actually use 32k AAC. With the tiny speakers on my player you can't hear any real difference, and it lets me squeeze more songs on the device. CD bought from a store is what I use for archiving.

    --
    My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
  8. MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by EdIII · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know all this.

    Problem is where is the support for the alternatives? Hardly any software really supports FLAC at all. I don't use iTunes, but does it support it? I know that Zune does not. Most standalone players don't support it.

    Of course, every other technology I use takes advantage of MP3. Asterisk can't use FLAC. Which would be hilarious if it did because the standard codecs are about the worst way to transmit music anyways. A phone call is terrible for quality. Unless you are inside a closed system using HD codecs, forget about it.

    I'll pick up and start using FLAC more often when the software and platforms I use actually support it.

    1. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Nerdfest · · Score: 1

      From what I've seen, many standalone players do support FLAC. Last time I checked, I think it may have had more support than AAC, but it's been a couple of years.

    2. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You had be convinced you weren't trolling until you mentioned the Zune as a thing people bought.

    3. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by cpu6502 · · Score: 4, Informative

      every other technology I use takes advantage of MP3. Asterisk can't use FLAC. Which would be hilarious if it did because the standard codecs are about the worst way to transmit music anyways. A phone call is terrible for quality.

      Phone calls don't use MP3. The wired phones are uncompressed 7-bit PCM, while the cell phones use a codec designed specifically for speech and barely stream faster than 4-5 kbit/s. (Yes that's right... 1/10th the speed of a 56k dialup connection.)

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    4. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by EdIII · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes, the connections to the PSTN don't use the MP3 codec, and it would be very strange to use MP3 between phones on a PBX system. However, PBX systems like Asterisk do transcode MP3 files to play as MOH or even system sounds on a channel.

      If you build a jukebox system to provide MOH, typically the end user uses MP3's to load their music, not FLAC.

      Also, if you are doing anything scripted on a Linux system for dynamic content generation Sox does not fully support FLAC. FFMPEG does have support for it, but I am not sure about any others.

      So while it is possible to convert FLAC to MP3, so it can be converted to g729 or whatever codec you prefer it does not make a lot of sense when the codecs actually used for transport to most PSTNs are terrible for music and audio fidelity in general.

      Which is kind of my point. Unless you are talking about some in-house conference systems, even MP3 is wasted.

    5. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by MachDelta · · Score: 3, Informative

      More research into your platforms? You really have to make it something you look for, rather than something you expect to just appear.

      Personally, I use MediaMonkey as a library app and have a Cowon S9 for music/movies on the go (battery life is fantastic with the screen off). They both support FLAC, OGG, and a bunch of other filetypes. Heck even my phone (Galaxy Nexus) supports FLAC and OGG.

    6. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by kyrio · · Score: 1

      Pretty much everything out there supports FLAC. The things that don't support it are the garbage products that you seem to use. FLAC is free, and therefore a really easy way to get more people to use a product without any extra cost added to production.

      Try doing some research about the products you waste your money on, maybe you'll find that the trash you've been buying can be replaced with extremely superior products from companies such as Cowon, or even SanDisk.

      Then you are going on about software, but software supports any file type, most (MP3, FLAC, OGG) as standard types, and anything less common as a plugin. At the very least, the most mainstream audio software has support, and the best software has standard support for it, like foobar2000.

      Also, what are you going on about with phone calls? Voice uses codecs that do under 10kbps, usually around 5kbps. You don't stream music over the phone expecting it to sound like anything more than some fizzes and pops.

    7. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      The wired phones are uncompressed 7-bit PCM

      Not necessarily. Read up on mu-law coding.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    8. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I think the use for FLAC is when you only want to do the ripping and tagging part once, but you want to maintain the flexibility to convert to other formats.

      I always found this cumbersome, but I understand the rationale. I started when I couldn't justify so much hard drive space, so I went with LAME --alt-preset extreme MP3. I've never had to transcode them.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    9. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Nemyst · · Score: 1

      I have absolutely no problem getting software to read FLACs; I use foobar at home and have ICS on my phone.

      No, the problem is with *obtaining* FLACs. I don't like CDs, I don't want to go out to the shop to buy them and then have to rip them on top, the convenience of online stores is too great. However, I'd pay a premium to get FLAC files online, and I'm sure I'm not alone, yet I've barely seen any service offering that. It's even worse considering that I'm across the border and thus many sites just say no when I try (can't believe even Amazon's MP3 store isn't available!).

      Give me quick and easy access to good FLACs and I'm sold.

    10. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck? Haha you don't know all this they're not even talking about that kind of compression they're focusing on dynamic range compression which has nothing to do with file format, it's about how the music is mixed and mastered. In this case they're probably referring more to the compression in the mastering phase. I'm not sure why this got a plus 4 insightful you ignored the whole article because you thought you were too smart for it but you didn't even understand what it was actually about.

    11. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That ratio shouldn't come as a surprise. A human voice only uses a fraction of the frequencies used by a data connection -- and digital phone communications aren't even duplex.

    12. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know all this.

      Problem is where is the support for the alternatives? Hardly any software really supports FLAC at all. I don't use iTunes, but does it support it? I know that Zune does not. Most standalone players don't support it.

      Of course, every other technology I use takes advantage of MP3. Asterisk can't use FLAC. Which would be hilarious if it did because the standard codecs are about the worst way to transmit music anyways. A phone call is terrible for quality. Unless you are inside a closed system using HD codecs, forget about it.

      I'll pick up and start using FLAC more often when the software and platforms I use actually support it.

      Well, clearly you have chosen to go with companies investing (both financially and digitally) heavily in their proprietary codecs. I mean, why would they even bother with FLAC, when they know you are going to throw money at whatever they want to supply? If you're cool with that, all the power to ya, let me stand aside while you re-purchase (or start consuming your limited license of) the new format. If you don't go looking for alternatives, you are only ever going to get what they want you have.

    13. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about picking software and platforms that support the file format you want, rather than picking a file format that is supported by the software/platform you want? Doesn't that seem more logical?

    14. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeaaaah, no. You don't know all this, in fact, you don't even know what the fuck the article is talking about. Dynamic range compression has absolutely nothing to do with file format.

    15. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Hardly any software really supports FLAC at all. I don't use iTunes, but does it support it? I know that Zune does not. Most standalone players don't support it.

      My denon receiver supports it, streamed via DLNA as well as on a USB drive. My model is 2 years old, I think all current model denons that support MP3 also support flac.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    16. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Yaztromo · · Score: 1

      Hardly any software really supports FLAC at all. I don't use iTunes, but does it support it? I know that Zune does not. Most standalone players don't support it.

      iTunes supports Apple's Lossless Audio Codec (ALAC), as does every Apple audio device (all iPods, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Airport Express and other AirTunes enabled devices).

      Up until late last year it was proprietary, but as of last October it is now Open Source under the Apache 2.0 license. The compression level is on par with FLAC.

      Yaz.

    17. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know all this.

      Problem is where is the support for the alternatives? Hardly any software really supports FLAC at all. I don't use iTunes, but does it support it? I know that Zune does not. Most standalone players don't support it.

      Of course, every other technology I use takes advantage of MP3. Asterisk can't use FLAC. Which would be hilarious if it did because the standard codecs are about the worst way to transmit music anyways. A phone call is terrible for quality. Unless you are inside a closed system using HD codecs, forget about it.

      I'll pick up and start using FLAC more often when the software and platforms I use actually support it.

      Flac is crippled because of the manufactures. For example all Samsung TV, BD players and other devices could easily support flac...considering the fact that they all run on Busy-Box Linux! We need to really tell Sony, LG, Samsung and all the others that use the Linux kernel to include flac support on their devices, the could all do it overnight they just refuse to admit that it can be done so easily. See the SamyGo project for more info. http://forum.samygo.tv/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=390&start=10

      It is bullshit that Flac is useless. It is only being excluded by the manufactures because of pressure on the manufactures from the MPEGLA and Microsoft. You said your Zune does not support flac ...well da guess why? Could it be because it is open source?

      Most Androids do flac just fine, getting native flac on a Mac is not a problem either...but your mileage might be a little shorter on Ipads and Iphones.

      Essentially if flac does finally take off and get the attention that it deserves then it is only a matter of time before the entire format war thing blows up in the face of the industry. Especially if more and more people actually will pay more for great content in a lossless format...I certainly would if it was readily available and free from DRM crap so that I could play it anywhere and anytime I wish. 10-20 dollars for a download of a Flac mix of George Szell and the Cleveland doing the last 3 Mozart Symphonies would come from my wallet in an instant! The industry is so screwed that they just do not see the real potential of Flac and high quality mixes of great content.

      That said listening to Le Sacre du Printemps on an mp3 in friggin' car is not exactly my idea of music listening. So the average joe is perfectly satisfied with boom box stereo sound..the art of recording is dying and so is the art of listening. What I hope happens is someone steps in and just blows all these bastards out of the water with new releases of great artists. Someone like Google should think about getting in on it as Sony and all the bastards that have really screwed things up in the classical music industry are ripe for the pickin's! So is the Apple juggernaut if they do not get on the band wagon with real classical music downloads...not just AAC and MP3 garbage douchbag boombox remixes!

    18. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is not MP3 at all. A consumer protection agency where I live did a study and found that most people can't hear the difference between lossless audio and 128 kB/s MP3. The real problem is the loudness wars. It turns out that songs that sound louder on the radio than the songs played before or after stick in memory better and sell better. So the music producers are under constant pressure to increase the volume, up to the point there the top and bottom of the sound wave get clipped off because the amplitude range is exceeded. Now this makes the music sound crappy of course, but if your song doesn't sound much crappier than the others and just a little bit louder it will sell better. And when you're really at your limit you can still increase the volume on the soft parts of a track, killing your dynamic range. Why broadcasters didn't turn down the volume on loud tracks, or why they used the butchered tracks on CD releases too escapes me, but the fact of the matter is that waveform is mangled long before we ever get to think about what kind of compression to use.

    19. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hardly any software really supports FLAC at all.

      Actually only a very few software players _don't_ support it. iTunes and Zune/WMP are the only ones I can think of right now. Yeah, they're relatively popular with the general population, but so is IE and you don't judge browsers in general based on it.

      New Android phones (the most used smartphones in the world) support FLAC natively and so do many PMPs (except those from Apple/MS). Other smartphones have plenty of 3rd party apps for FLAC playback..

      Asterisk.. well, lossless for making phone calls would be a bit silly.

    20. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish I had a phone that supported FLAC. I have 64gb memory. Oh well, it's only an iPhone4s

      AC

    21. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      The wired phones are uncompressed 7-bit PCM

      Not necessarily. Read up on mu-law coding.

      Yes ans=d no. G.711 is generally 8-bit u-law encoded at 8kHz (or a-law). The problem is that Robbed-Bit Signalling within the telco can steal one of the bits on every 6th frame. It can be even more frames depending on how many times along the path that the equipment is doing robbed-bit signalling. This is also the reason, your modem can't get 64k connections and often gets much worse.

    22. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is compressed and uncompressed at the same time. Depends on which definition of compression you use ;)

    23. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by smellotron · · Score: 1

      Up until late last year [ALAC] was proprietary, but as of last October it is now Open Source under the Apache 2.0 license. The compression level is on par with FLAC.

      IIRC ALAC came after FLAC (Wikipedia confirms this: FLAC 2001, ALAC 2004)... but Apple went and created their own proprietary format that is par and not better? Seems pretty antisocial unless there is something about ALAC that makes it substantially more efficient to decode. Open-sourcing it after 7 years just sounds like more empire-building to me.

    24. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Yaztromo · · Score: 1

      IIRC ALAC came after FLAC (Wikipedia confirms this: FLAC 2001, ALAC 2004)... but Apple went and created their own proprietary format that is par and not better? Seems pretty antisocial unless there is something about ALAC that makes it substantially more efficient to decode. Open-sourcing it after 7 years just sounds like more empire-building to me.

      I have no special inside knowledge of what Apple's reasoning may have been, but some possibilities do spring to mind:

      1. ALAC uses the MP4 container format, same as AAC. This permits for easier de-containerization (as they already have the code to do it for AAC), and could also potentially permit them to easily implement their Fairplay DRM for ALAC (no ALAC encoded files have ever been released this way, but it may have been an early consideration).
      2. AFAIK, FLAC decoding in hardware has only been available for the last few years. Apple's iPod has been able to decode ALAC since at least the 4th generation iPod in 2004 (IIRC). It's entirely possible that no hardware existed to do FLAC decoding at the time, and from Apple's POV it would be 2^4 of one vs. 4^2 of the other if they had to implement it themselves, and so went with their own lossless solution.

      Yaz

    25. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      May I recommend Sandisk's current Sansa line? FLAC/Vorbis support out of the box.

    26. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by MtViewGuy · · Score: 1

      We have a "chicken and egg" problem with FLAC--what large record company will release files in this format, and when will all the major portable music player makers (especially Apple, who controls the vast majority of the market through the iPod and iPhone) support it? Sure, you can convert FLAC to other formats, but the problem is that most computer users are not interested in installing a third-party program to do this conversion.

    27. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      Dialup modems only use the first 7 bits, so 56k maximum. And then the FCC limited the power output allowed over phone lines (to avoid crosstalk between wires), so in the U.S. the maximum is 53.3k which I usually get when I'm home, but not from hotels (unless it's a Motel 6).

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    28. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      I believe FLAC decoding in hardware has been possible since at least 2003, when the Rio Karma was released. As far as I know, it was the first portable player with Ogg Vorbis and FLAC playback.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    29. Re:MP3 Bad, FLAC Good! by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      Also, if you are doing anything scripted on a Linux system for dynamic content generation Sox does not fully support FLAC.

      That's odd, I've been using SoX to dither+downsample 24-bit/96kHz FLAC files to CD-quality for a while now and it seems to work perfectly well:

      sox -G infile.flac -b 16 outfile.flac rate 44100 dither -s

      It even preserves tags.

      --
      Eat the rich.
  9. Compression and compression by asdbffg · · Score: 5, Informative

    All this switching back and forth between dynamic range compression and data compression makes my head hurt.

    So to clear things up... dynamic range compression is a form of signal processing that is usually used to make the average level of a signal louder, hence the loudness wars.

    Data compression probably doesn't need to be explained to this crowd. But you know... MP3s and stuff.

    1. Re:Compression and compression by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Thank you. It's amazing how many people don't understand the difference.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    2. Re:Compression and compression by JazzHarper · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is unfortunate that the same term is used for two entirely different things. The article does a pretty good job of conflating the two.

      Anyway, the loudness war is over. Digital players, as opposed to CD players, now routinely apply SoundCheck (Apple) or ReplayGain to normalize levels from track to track, so mastering a digital track into saturation no longer makes it "louder" than the next track on the player. Most streaming services do the same. The advantage, if there ever was any, is gone.

      It's not surprising that there are still some producers who still indulge in mastering at saturated levels. It's also not surprising that RHCP are still turning out such recordings; they were among the worst offenders at the peak of the loudness war, 13 years ago, and they are probably superstitious enough to believe that it still has some benefit.

    3. Re:Compression and compression by Nemyst · · Score: 4, Informative

      ReplayGain can't fix poor dynamic range though, that's the big shame. It removes the problem of certain tracks being mastered for maximum level, but still doesn't change the fact that most music nowadays is almost uniformly of the same volume - be that loud or not. There's little to no difference in volume between a quiet passage and a thundering chorus.

    4. Re:Compression and compression by JazzHarper · · Score: 1

      I agree completely and I applaud Ian Shepherd for addressing that issue directly, not just by talking about it, but promoting a tool to measure it objectively.

    5. Re:Compression and compression by wrook · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Indeed. And it can lead to strange effects. The other day I was listening to some music on the radio (I forget what) where the singer started out with what was probably a quiet solo. After a while the orchestra swelled in the background. The singer's voice should have increased in volume to sing over top of the orchestra, but because the music was so heavily compressed, their voice actually diminished in volume while still being over top of the orchestra. The overall volume stayed the same.

      I remember thinking, "Well, that's bizarre". It completely ruined the song. The soft, quiet part was annoyingly loud, with the singer's voice piercing my eardrums, and as the song built momentum and energy, the singer kept getting quieter and quieter.

    6. Re:Compression and compression by smellotron · · Score: 1

      I remember thinking, "Well, that's bizarre". It completely ruined the song.

      I have an Audyssey-enabled receiver, which does similar normalization. I remember this same effect on the intro to Coheed & Cambria's "Welcome Home". Normalization totally destroys the impact. OTOH, it's good for providing a more consistent noise floor when company is over.

    7. Re:Compression and compression by digitalaudiorock · · Score: 1

      I was hoping someone would make that point. The dynamic range compession and limiting that's going on in recording studios today, in the days of vinyl, would have literally made the needle of your turn table jump out of the groove. It's just criminal...and short of going back to the original session and remastering it (NOT the original master, which is compressed to death), it can't be fixed.

  10. When Experts Attack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    I am greatly enjoying 'Adopt an Audiophile... And Beat Some Sense Into Him' Month here on Slashdot.

    1. Re:When Experts Attack by lennier1 · · Score: 1

      They have some valid points, but it's hard to take someone serious who'd happily pay several thousand bucks for special audio equipment because otherwise he won't hear some squirrel that had to fart ten miles away from the recording studio.

    2. Re:When Experts Attack by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      My main pair of speakers are studio monitors. I like the fact that they do not "warm up" a recording, they just regenerate it to the best of their ability (aside from the bass response rolling off below 55 Hz). If a recording needs to be massaged, I have filters and (if necessary) external boxes to do that. It's not the job of the speakers. Said speakers will set you back a couple grand, but I'm driving them with an amplifier I bought for under $200 -- it's clean, clear, and actually somewhat overpowered for the job (I can, in theory, trip the circuit breakers on the speakers though I haven't when I've tried). 100W each into two high-efficiency monitors can clear a room pretty easily.

      Even without the Tannoys, I can hear the difference between various bitrates of lossy encoding. Various formats only sound like they're a slightly higher or lower bitrate, the fundamental quality does not seem to be any different. 192kbps MP3 is about the minimum I consider tolerable (for stereo), but some of these squashed recordings sound no worse at 160. For my "online stash" and MP3 player, I will sometimes compress more since they rarely get used in any critical listening environments. It's almost pointless to re-compress from 192 though, when the MP3 player will happily take a 32 GB MicroSDHC. (Thank you Rockbox!)

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  11. Thanks for the tip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Noted.

  12. It matters to a point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've been a musician for many years, and I have a nice studio set-up so that I can hear music as clear as possible. Yet I have amassed... umm, through various ways thousands of mp3s as well as flacs and oogs. Do I like the quality of lossless files better, yeah. But does that make me want to get on some flac-only crusade and not listen to mp3s? Not at all. Maybe it's because I'm of that age where I remember scratchy records, or pressing a transistor radio against my ear to hear the latest Jackson-5 or Stevie Wonder cut that was playing on the radio. For me it's the notes, melody, rhythm, lyrics that matter, that's the true musical information. From my music collection I have grown in my musical sensibilities immensely. I don't think it would be possible to have the library I have if everything was lossless just from the standpoint of space and perhaps download time.

    So of course, lossless is better than lossy by definition, but mp3s still bring me to where I want to me in terms of getting the music the artist wanted to convey.
       

    1. Re:It matters to a point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      you are a musician, you listen to music...
      he is a sound engineer, he listen to gears...

    2. Re:It matters to a point. by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Going all the way back to high school music class, but doesn't sheet music have these notations that tell you how loud or soft you should play something? Isn't this basically related to volume? I'd say that's kinda important, too...

    3. Re:It matters to a point. by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      ..this is the attitude that brought us the loudness war in the first place..musicians who want it 'louder.'

    4. Re:It matters to a point. by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      I agree to a point, but too much lossy compression can be distracting, like looking at an otherwise great photo that's been saved as a JPEG with quality set to 1. Sure, I used to watch scrambled channels as a kid just to get a glimpse of an, ahem, movie that I'd never see otherwise, but that doesn't make it preferable when alternatives are available.

  13. Don't buy mp3 by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

    It's one thing to encode your music as mp3 so it fits on a portable device, and another altogether to purchase it in that form. Sooner or later you will wish that you had bought the lossless encoding.

  14. Yes, and hearing the difference costs how much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When I can somehow distinguish between FLAC and 192 mp3 VBR on equipment costing less than 2K, I'll consider it.

    1. Re:Yes, and hearing the difference costs how much? by kyrio · · Score: 1

      I bet you're a really loud talker.

    2. Re:Yes, and hearing the difference costs how much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most people can't unless they listen to them back to back... Insert an hour between listening to each and they wouldn't have a clue.

    3. Re:Yes, and hearing the difference costs how much? by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      Sansa Clip Zip - $40
      Rockbox firmware - $0
      Sennheiser PX-100 headphones - $60

      Total - $100

      I'd recommend the 1990 MFSL CD version "Breakfast in America" or one of the many good CD versions of "Dark side of the Moon". I own both and there is definitely a difference to be heard.

      --
      Eat the rich.
  15. Smaller dynamic range = worse hardware? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In addition to the diminished audio fidelity, the other sad part about the loudness wars is that they have likely contributed to the number of lower-quality consumer audio devices in the market these days. A quality recording (that doesn't have its dynamic range hammered into a corner) encourages you to listen at a higher volume overall, but raising the volume on a cheap audio device generally exposes bad quality components and noise in the signal path. If the average person was accustomed to listening to a wider dynamic range, we'd probably see an increase in higher quality parts being used in consumer audio devices.

  16. forget compression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about some decent bands? What happened to good music? Don't call me old, I'm still young enough to not remember the great war... of '91. Music seems to be for teens and young adults now.

    1. Re:forget compression by jonwil · · Score: 2

      Whats happened to music is that people with genuine talent are being overlooked in favor of people who can be made to look really really good and who have enough talent to actually make music but not enough that they could make a living from it without the backing of the record company keeping them alive.

      See Justin Beber, Katy Perry and who knows how many others who's name I forget because their music is so crap. Also see everyone who has won shows like American Idol.

      REAL musicians are artists like Bruce Springsteen, The Who, Jimmy Barnes, Lee Kerneghan, Emerson Lake & Palmer, Cold Chisel, AC/DC, Rolling Stones, John Farnham, John Williamson, Slim Dusty, Billy Joel, Elton John, Men At Work, Queen and Hunters & Collectors.

  17. This guy probably swears by $1000 HDMI cables, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just sayin'

  18. Quality by Nerdfest · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Personally I wouldn't blame the degrading quality of modern music on compression. Even with a high dynamic range, there's a higher ratio of crap out there than during the disco era.. Of course, you may be standing on my lawn.

    1. Re:Quality by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      The shame of it all is that disco doesn't have to suck. Case in point: Jamiroquai.

      Any genre that gets popular will have a flood of imitators. Most of them will suck. Some of them will be popular anyhow, just because it's the sound of the times.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  19. C64 anyone? by Twinbee · · Score: 2

    Due to the loudness wars, I'm surprised chip music (e.g. C64) hasn't taken off more, considering that the soundwaves always peak at the maximum floor and ceiling levels.

    After all, louder is better, so Monty on the Run or R-Type on the radio or TV would be heaven! (Irony being they do beat 99.9% of pop today anyway...)

    --
    Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    1. Re:C64 anyone? by cpu6502 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      >>>soundwaves always peak at the maximum floor and ceiling levels

      Hardly. The C64 has a volume control. 0 to 255 if I recall correctly, so the music could range from soft to loud (not maxed-out like today's CDs). Ditto other "chip music" produced by Atari 800s or Commodore Amigas.

      I've tried sharing 64, amiga, and Super Nintendo music on facebook but most people think it sounds like junk. They don't appreciate that electronic sound. (shrug). BTW http://www.lemon64.com/ let's you hear 64 music directly over the web.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    2. Re:C64 anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The C64's SID volume register has 4 bits dedicated to volume control, so there are 16 levels.

    3. Re:C64 anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Mine went to 17.

    4. Re:C64 anyone? by vlueboy · · Score: 1

      Yay for chiptunes!
      Too bad the site seems to use Java. I wanted to take a quick listen.

      I never played much C64, so my own interests once I found computer playback tools were NES and SNES related.

      It is true that it turns my real life friends off, so at some point near 2000 I turned to ocremix to get orchestrated remixes instead. But for the pure chiptune sound files in SMC and NSF format I still have from last decade's games, I recommend Winamp plugins, or standalone Nosefart, and Meridian player (it had a fake stereo for nonstereo 8bit games). For mac users, Audio overload from Banister.

      Just 2 months ago I found that there's Playstation tunes out there, making the Chrono Cross and FF7 tracks finally something I could export to MP3 to best my older midi tracks. Today I was watching a playthrough of FinalFantasy XIII-2 and noticed most tracks in it now have vocals / actual lyrics. In a generation or two of consoles XBOX 720 and above there will probably be very little left in terms of that nice, cold triangle / square wave goodness.

    5. Re:C64 anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Replying as AC. Last decade actually points at the 2000's, by which time I was already done collecting chiptune files. So technically the games were from the decade before, and for NES, from yet another one.
      Ouch. It's like I'm telling myself to get off my lawn.
      vlueboy

    6. Re:C64 anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pulse modulation schemes (PWM, PDM, etc) are certainly not the same thing as saturation. Even in the simplest setup, the higher order frequency components are effectively filtered by the speaker itself (not too many audio speakers that can reproduce 300 kHz)... the remaining components allow considerable amounts of modulation.

      The SID is even more advanced than a simple PWM generator, but even a high-frequency PWM generator involves high frequency waves that peak at "maximum floor and ceiling" but the low-pass filtered output certainly does not.

    7. Re:C64 anyone? by vlueboy · · Score: 1

      Boy, am I rusty. First have to correct the dates with an AC post. Then the file format. Posting logged in again.
      I meant SPC, not SMC format. While I'm at it I'll also link to OCremix.

    8. Re:C64 anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SID has 4-bit volume control so that's only 0 to 15...

    9. Re:C64 anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The C64 has a volume control. 0 to 255 if I recall correctly

      It was 0 to 15, but yes.

    10. Re:C64 anyone? by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      The SID volume control was four bits, so 0 to 15.

      Mart

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    11. Re:C64 anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The C64 has a volume control. 0 to 255 if I recall correctly

      It was 0 to 15, but yes.

      Well, there are ways around that. If using a triangle waveform as a ramp DAC isn't a cool hack, I don't know what is.

    12. Re:C64 anyone? by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      >>>Just 2 months ago I found that there's Playstation tunes out there, making the Chrono Cross and FF7 tracks .....

      Also PS2 and N64 tracks; I have Final Fantasy 10 and Banjo-Kazooie audios on my hard drive. By now they've probably learned how to rip Gamecube/PS3/Wii tracks.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    13. Re:C64 anyone? by vlueboy · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the reply.

      I'll look for the FF10 chiptunes a little harder. I couldn't find more than a handful PS2 ones at Zophars and definitely wanted FF10.
      I'll link to White Skies, a non-chiptune remix of Mt. Gagazet here.
      (The Youtube links tend to last a few months and die, so people finding this may just google that one.)

      Back on topic, yeah, I followed the emulation scene up until 16 bit games. Having skipped owning other systems in between that and the slim PS2 left me without much to latch on to, but I am amazed at the glimpses of complex 3D emu I catch here and there.

  20. Not avoiding MP3s by thegarbz · · Score: 5, Interesting

    MP3s are still a wonderful compression and it's quite amazing how it has withstood the test of time. Large scale ABX tests have shown people are unable to tell the difference between a 256kbps mp3 and the original lossless recording. Over the past several years I've also noticed a trend for MP3s no longer to be encoded at stupidly low bitrates.

    No I won't be avoiding MP3s. I much prefer an MP3 (even at 128kbps) than one of those wonderful "remasters" of an old album. Quite frankly there's nothing masterful about how the loudness war has managed to destroy modern music. The real shame is it doesn't end with the CD master. SACD, DVD-A and I guess now we can include the new supposedly magical itunes format have all tried to tell us the wonders of 24bit music, and yet the dynamic range of music rarely drops below -7dB.

    When people download some backyard mp3 digitisation of a Red Hot Chilli Pepper's vinyl release of an album to get better sound quality, or when they download rips of the GuitarHero versions of Metallica songs to get some form of dynamic range you really know the industry has gone to shit.

    1. Re:Not avoiding MP3s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Large scale ABX tests have shown people are unable to tell the difference between a 256kbps mp3 and the original lossless recording"

      quality of speakers used? quality headphones? what was used in the tests? vanilla apple earbuds?

      i know people who cant tell the difference between 720p & 1080p.

    2. Re:Not avoiding MP3s by Josh+Coalson · · Score: 1

      Note that FLAC was not designed to sound better than MP3s. (It can, if the MP3 encoding wasn't done correctly.) It was designed primarily as an archival format, the master copy from which you could encode to whatever format was practical for listening.

      It didn't take long to realize that FLAC was easy to implement on devices, and memory keeps getting cheaper, so why not skip the transcoding step entirely? Not for quality reasons, for practicality. So now pretty much all software (except iTunes) supports it and many very good devices (except iPod) do too.

    3. Re:Not avoiding MP3s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      An example of a more critical listening exercise where aac fell flat and mp3 would too is Einaudi's Nuvole Bianche where i was trying to listen to the quieter left hand part (this piece is solo piano) and heard an infistinct mush where the attack transients had clearly been removed by the algorithm. I'm happy casually listening to aac256 but when you want to listen carefully to an instrument that isnt the loudest thing in the signal, thats where you need lossless.

    4. Re:Not avoiding MP3s by u38cg · · Score: 1

      The real problem is that music is no longer a precious resource; it's sonic wallpaper. We can all have as much as we want all the time, in any place. Students sit through lectures with a headphone stuck in one ear. And when the supply of something becomes limitless, its value becomes zero. So why would you give a shit about the delivery mechanism?

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    5. Re:Not avoiding MP3s by Gaygirlie · · Score: 1

      Not everyone can tell the difference, I for example do have perfectly good high-quality headphones and I sure as hell wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I simply do not have such precise hearing, that's that.

    6. Re:Not avoiding MP3s by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      An example of a more critical listening exercise where aac fell flat and mp3 would too is Einaudi's Nuvole Bianche where i was trying to listen to the quieter left hand part (this piece is solo piano) and heard an infistinct mush where the attack transients had clearly been removed by the algorithm. I'm happy casually listening to aac256 but when you want to listen carefully to an instrument that isnt the loudest thing in the signal, thats where you need lossless.

      In this whole thread the AC is the only one who seems to get it.

      TRANSIENTS are WHERE dynamic RANGE comes FROM.

      It's the key issue with recording and mastering and the thing lost with audio compression. That is what dynamic range is all about, what makes it seem exciting and you want to turn the volume up, instead of down because it a mash of noise. Many things in sound recording are counter-intuitive, but it's the musical transients that give a piece of music a life like characteristic.

      I have been recording and mastering music for years and this is one of the key things I strive for. A good example of dynamic range in recording is Tool's Anemia.

      When it comes to data compression I note it's mainly the high frequency audio (say 12-15khz) that sounds affected. Some of the psycho-acoustic algorithms don't seem to work well in these ranges and waveform information (like cymbals) become waveform data that is decidedly unpleasant to listen to. When I look at the abused music subject on my studio gear it's plain to see the damage. Generally time by amplitude is the way a waveform is visualised, but when you look at a time by frequency visualisation instead of a distribution of frequency I saw lines of the most dominant frequencies (usually the resonant frequency of the instrument) the ones the algorithm kept.

      Music isn't science, it's art. So is mastering and recording because a good production can make or break a album. The progressive commoditisation of the art has produced many lifeless mashes of noise. This is what many people want, but for people who appreciate the art that is music these two issues have destroyed the expression of many worthwhile musicians.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    7. Re:Not avoiding MP3s by Bengie · · Score: 1

      "people are unable to tell the difference between a 256kbps mp3 and the original"

      Ignoring the highs, I can tell the difference between 256kbs mp3 and the CD if I can listen back and forth. Very mild, but it's there. Kind of like when you look at a color, then look at another similar color and it looks the same. Put them side-by-side and they look quite different. If I worked with colors all day, I bet I could better tell the difference between colors even when they're not side-by-side

      Back to the highs. MP3 mutilates the highs. Listen to any Jazz and it sounds muffled. Violins, pianos, saxophones, percussions, etc sound like they have no texture. I'm not sure what MP3 removes, but those types of instruments sound really flat once ran through MP3. Vorbis doesn't do that. 192kbit Vorbis I can't tell from the original CD.

      I think the biggest issue people are talking about for people being use to compressed range is how I think of 3D graphics. I remember playing Counter-Strike on my CRT. Looked perfectly fine to me. I looked at my friend's LCD and it looked about the same. He claimed it looked a lot better. Eventually I got and LCD. Played on it for a few weeks. I was playing around with dual monitors and hooked back-up my CRT.. It looked horrible.

      Once you get use to something better, you can tell when something is worse.

    8. Re:Not avoiding MP3s by Solandri · · Score: 1

      A sound mastering engineer says to avoid MP3 and use FLAC. He says this because in his line of work (mixing and editing), the errors due to MP3 compression would accumulate and grow with each edit and mix. So yes a sound engineer wants to work in a non-lossy format.

      The problem is a bunch of music listeners read this, don't really understand the details, but conclude that they too must need FLAC for music playback. After all if a sound engineer says he needs it, then I must need it too, right? No you don't. 99.9% of people can't tell the difference between FLAC and a good quality MP3 unless you're doing blind A/B tests (allow them to switch between the two to compare), and even then the difference is slight. If you're just listening to a song, it's not enough to matter.

      Do your editing and mixing, and save your final mixes in a non-lossy format. But for saving on a portable music player, convert it to a lossy format at a good bitrate. Same thing for photos - process them and store them in a non-lossy format. But for uploading to the web, convert them to JPEG as the final step.

    9. Re:Not avoiding MP3s by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      The last time I saw a large ABX test advertised on the internet it was listed both on Slashdot and the audiophile forum I frequented at the time. Unsurprisingly many supposed audiophiles on slashdot complained how the test would be full of people with vanilla apple earbuds. The complaints however were quite different on the audiophile forum done by people who had gear worth more than my car. They complained that the psychological effects of an ABX test don't work properly because the brain only remembers exactly how something sounded for a second or 2.

      In other words people thought what they thought and simply made different excuses depending on who they were talking to.

    10. Re:Not avoiding MP3s by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Funny the complaints about mp3s are usually that they screw the lows not the highs ;-)

      The problem is people take mp3 as a single codec that is completely unchanging. Had we had this conversation 10 years ago I would have agreed, but the encoders have changed so incredibly that the difference hasn't been noted in ABX testing, even by people who claimed they are the prodigal children with their Sennheiser HD650s on their heads.

      Anyway that wasn't my point. My point was I don't give a rats arse if the highs are mutilated if the song in question experiences incredible distortion from compression to begin with. Just look towards the Black Eyed Keys if you want a bass line that is represented by squarewaves, you wouldn't be able to hear the violins even on the DVD-A release :-)

  21. Mastering Engineer... by coldmist · · Score: 1

    I can't be the only one that tried to read the headline and thought "another screwed up Slashdot title", thinking it was a book title for "Mastering Engineering" or something other than an "audio" mastering engineer?

    Couldn't the editors have put 'Audio' at the front of the subject to give it a point of reference?

    Sheesh.

    --
    Don't steal. The government hates competition.
  22. Finally! Someone who knows something about music! by Geak · · Score: 3, Funny

    The loudness wars have been a complaint of mine for some time now. The example video at the end of the article gives an EXCELLENT explanation. I only wish that more people would complain about this so that the quality of recordings would get better. Unfortunately most of the music of today sounds more like a Stephen Hawking lecture with distorted beeping and buzzing in the background and no actual music. When I was in school - music was part of the curriculum. I don't know if it still is but the kids of today are completely CLUELESS when it comes to music. They only seem to like songs about 'guns, money, drugs, niggas and bitches' because they SEE not HEAR these videos on MTV. They see some gun toting loser driving a ferrari, throwing stacks of cash around, surrounded by half naked crack whores and think - "Man that is the life I want to lead!" Their music tastes follow accordingly. If they actually listened to the lyrics - they might actually be disgusted.

  23. The end of improvement. by MpVpRb · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When audio recording was first invented, quality was awful, but people loved it, because it was new and exciting, and nothing like it had ever existed before..

    Year after year, quality improved.

    We expected that someday, recorded music would become indistinguishable from live performance.

    Then everything changed.

    Convenience became more important than quality.

    Storing 5000 mediocre quality recordings on an ipod became the norm.

    Combine that with the excessive compression used to fight the loudness war, and it really makes an old-school audiophile sad.

    1. Re:The end of improvement. by MrHanky · · Score: 1

      Bullshit history. You just made that up.

    2. Re:The end of improvement. by solanum · · Score: 1

      I second this. I fairly regularly go to live orchestral performances and frankly a CD on a decent system gives you only a tiny fraction of the live sound (note I'm not talking about amplified concerts here, before the get off my lawn comments start). I hoped that as disks were able to store more and more data we'd get closer and closer to that live sound, but now too few people are interested to make it economically worthwhile.

      --
      Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
    3. Re:The end of improvement. by maccodemonkey · · Score: 1

      Eh. I think you're misunderstanding the problem.

      Our current encoding levels (256 kbps AAC) are actually extremely good. The problem is the number of channels. Real life concerts usually have sound coming from all different directions from a bunch of discrete sources. You muddle that up into two channels, you're going to end up with something that doesn't sound bad, but doesn't sound live either. I have a few albums encoded in 5.1 (which is rare), and they sound like being at the actual show.

      But of course the problem is five discreet channels requires five discreet speakers, and when you're dealing with headphones you only have two ears to stick speakers into. And honestly, yeah, I can understand why people would give up the sound quality for the convenience of listening to music anywhere they wanted rather than being shackled to their living rooms.

    4. Re:The end of improvement. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So which parts of his post aren't factual? Cock-smoker.

    5. Re:The end of improvement. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      old-school audiophile

      That's like saying you were a pretentious douchebag before being a pretentious douchebag was cool.

    6. Re:The end of improvement. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem, for a long time, has been the two ends of the audio chain rather than the middle.
      The amount of distortion and phase weirdness added by microphones and speakers is far greater than that of the recording medium nowadays.

    7. Re:The end of improvement. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now it's already technically convenient to have losless hq audio content because typical mp3 player has tenths of gigabytes of flash storage, not to mention TB HDD's. But that doesn't happen due to greedy media industry who want to keep that for later use (remixing matrices 20 or 50 years later).
      There was Audio DVD, but with a 'nice' feature that no players allowed digital output. So much about utilising expensive audiophile hardware. No wonder that it never caught up.

    8. Re:The end of improvement. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I need to broadcast this comment, but since you inspired me:

      As an occasional Audio Engineer, having the huge privilege of learning under a multi-Grammy winning Recording Engineer, I can tell you that one of the biggest problems with Digital Audio is 16 Bits. In the old days, our A/D recording interfaces only did 16 bits, and you must not EVER digitally clip. That meant you recorded the raw tracks using only 12 or so bits so as to leave room for big dynamics. However, that means your quiet parts are down in the electronic noise level, and distorted by the quantization errors.

      I have waited for audio to catch up to me, so I only record at minimum 24 bits, 96 KHz (can do 192) which allows me lots of "headroom".

      But another HUGE issue is: if I make you a CD with minimal or no compression, remember 2 things: that CD is 16 bits. The quiet parts are only using 8-10 bit range (huge distortion) and you won't like it. The second thing is: if you play my CD in a somewhat noisy environment, like a car, you won't hear the quiet parts- unless you turn up the volume, and then you'll get blasted when the dynamics go big. I've listened to many such CDs and decided that some amount of compression is a good thing, EVEN in classical / orchestral music (which is my love.)

      I would MUCH rather do this: produce HD audio - 24 bit @ 48 or 96 KHz (on DVD- DVD players will play it!) AND give you 2 of each track- 1 with minimal compression for quiet home listening, and a second with good natural compression so it sounds good in a car.

      A great alternative to all of this would be if manufacturers would put a compressor in the CD players with controls to let you do your own compression to your taste, listening environment, etc.

    9. Re:The end of improvement. by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      By all means, use 24-bit/96kHz (or above!) for mastering, you want as much headroom as possible when you're mixing, EQing and so on.

      But for final distribution, 16-bit/44.1kHz is more than good enough, 96dB dynamic range is huge if you actually use all (or most) of it. In fact, there has not been a single verified double-blind ABX test where any difference could be heard between a 24-bit/192kHz recording and a properly dithered and downsampled 16-bit/44.1kHz version of the same recording, even on top studio-quality equipment.

      The CD format is solid, 99% of modern mastering practices are not, due to overcompression. I agree 100% with you that some compression is a good thing, but it is a powerful tool that must be wielded with extreme care.

      --
      Eat the rich.
  24. 10 dB??? by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 5, Informative

    You should be so lucky. These days most mastering engineers shoot for 4 dB of dynamic range at most because, otherwise, the soft passages will be lost in the car noise.

    --
    That is all.
    1. Re:10 dB??? by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This. Which is why all the car manufacturers should be beaten upside the head with clue bats until every new car built comes with a proper sound system that compensates for volume changes relative to the vehicle's current noise floor. It isn't particularly hard to do....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    2. Re:10 dB??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is why you should do the compression in the car stereo, not in the recording.

    3. Re:10 dB??? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      First, let's address the stock standard shitty ass paper cones they use first. Sometimes riveted into the door (RAV4 here). Just last week my factory radio LCD freaked out and every button I pushed ejected a CD. Only until I turned the ignition off would it reboot. I understand I have a bad head unit. But still. Crap crap crap all the way around. For that much money I would at least like to get a decent unit with polypropylene speakers. That level of tech is at least 10 years old. So it should be relatively cheap to mass produce. Whatever.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    4. Re:10 dB??? by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

      Oh, for goodness sake, no! I have that on my car, and I end up turning the damn thing up and down. If you keep it X db above the noise floor all it does is blast you out when the noise floor goes up.

    5. Re:10 dB??? by adolf · · Score: 1

      Except for the facts that a shitty ill-suited and poorly designed speaker can be made from any cone material, and that rivets are mechanically superior than the usual way of mounting car speakers (sheet metal screws and speed clips), I agree with everything you say:

      Indeed, your head unit is bad. Get a different one.

    6. Re:10 dB??? by donscarletti · · Score: 1

      Mastering for cars is important. I hate music with high dynamic range because it cannot be used consistently to drown out other things. If I have some classical music (which is almost always mastered with lots of dynamic range), then I generally have to quickly skip it, otherwise the office/plane background noise that I'm trying to mute just annoys me too much.

      I've got this song on my iPhone called "Map of the Problematique" by Muse, it has almost no dynamic range and seems to saturate the high through low frequency ranges with something very loud, all the time. I found it when I was on a long flight from Beijing to Toronto, it was on my playlist and it was like the engines fell silent when it played. When I need to seriously concentrate, I just put it on loop. That song is a masterpiece.

      --
      When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
    7. Re:10 dB??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is silly. If it's so bad, why don't you just compress it, Compressing (DR) is pretty easy, uncompressing not so much... This is precisely what the "loudness" button on a shitty 1970s hi-fi does.

    8. Re:10 dB??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what happens when you need to replace the speaker if it's held in place with rivets? They may be mechanically superior, but if need or want to replace them, they're a pain to deal with.

    9. Re:10 dB??? by adolf · · Score: 2

      What happens: You use tools* to remove the fasteners. After that you can either replace them with new fasteners of the same type, or use some other variety of fastener.

      It's like performing any other mechanical work on any manner of machine: You observe the work to be performed, gather up the appropriate tools, and then use the tools until the work is complete. *shrug*

      *: In order of my own personal preference: A sharp, offset cold chisel and maybe a punch will remove common aluminum pop rivets with a few mild swings from a hammer. Or, a drill motor with an bit will accomplish the same thing, in a non-impact sort of way.

    10. Re:10 dB??? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      And if you don't keep it above the noise floor, it gets lost in the noise. The fact that your car is compensating too much doesn't invalidate the concept. It just means that your car's particular implementation is dumb as a brick.

      The degree of compensation required likely depends in part on the individual listener's preferences and in part on the type of content. Speech requires more compensation than music, quiet sounds more than loud sounds, etc. To do it right, you need to experiment with lots of different types of content at lots of different listening levels with lots of different participants, model their actions (turning it up, down, etc.), and then replicate it, interpolating between the various levels. Then repeat the process several more times until you converge upon a handful of loudness curves tuned to certain types of people. Then add the learning algorithm into the car and make it learn your preferences to pick which curve to use as a baseline and then further refine it.

      In other words, it's not n dB above the noise floor, but f(n,c) dB above the noise floor where n is the noise floor, c is likely to be some simple scaling value chosen based on an analysis of the content's sonic profile, and f probably involves looking up the two values in a large table, coupled with some sort of feedback loop that updates the table or the list of scaling factors based on how the user reacts to the adjustment.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    11. Re:10 dB??? by sunspot42 · · Score: 1

      Not really. The "loudness" button usually just pumped up the low bass and the treble when the volume was below a certain threshold. Useful, because at lower volumes the ear is less sensitive to both ends of the spectrum, and music sounded a bit flat at low volumes as a result.

      Crushing the dynamic range by itself won't solve that problem.

    12. Re:10 dB??? by kimvette · · Score: 1

      Modern speed-sensitive volume can usually be configured through a menu accessed in the trip computer, head unit. or whatever your car uses for the UI to owner-configurable settings.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    13. Re:10 dB??? by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Guessing the amount of volume compensation based on the vehicle's speed is an epic fail if I ever saw one. At highway speeds, there's at least a 6 dB difference (and probably more like 10–12 dB) between the loudest roads I drive on and the quietest roads. At 0 MPH, there is a 0 dB difference (or nearly so). That huge scaling discrepancy from one road to the next would make any speed-based scheme very nearly (if not completely) useless.

      There is exactly one way to accurately determine the ambient noise level for compensation purposes: combine a microphone outside the vehicle with a carefully crafted attenuation profile that describes how well the vehicle blocks noise at various frequencies.

      Well, I suppose you could have a microphone inside the car and use a reverb model of the car to cancel out the desired sound from each of the car's speakers, but that requires a fair bit more DSP and provides no real benefit over an external mic with an equalizer.... :-)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    14. Re:10 dB??? by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 1

      Good idea for a video game though.

      The faster your go without hitting anything, the louder the music gets. Maybe the tempo picks up too.

      And then something else happens. Doesn't matter what, it's a video game.

      --
      This space available.
    15. Re:10 dB??? by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe the problem is that the music industry's "product" is now seen as something that has to be consumer in cars or through crappy earbuds.

      Am I the only person that sees that as a problem?

      Might as well start designing cameras & Photoshop to make all photos look recognizable when viewed through a half-full unturned beer mug.

      Music should be mastered to be what is best for the music. Any concerns about being able to hear it in a shitty listening environment should be left to the concern of the person who chooses to listen in a shitty environment.

      Aftermarket can take of that.

      --
      This space available.
    16. Re:10 dB??? by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Do you happen to know which manufacturers use the techniques you describe? I've seen automatic level adjustment touted on lots of vehicles, but never a solid description of the technique per vehicle.

    17. Re:10 dB??? by sleschdott · · Score: 1

      Well, I suppose you could have a microphone inside the car and use a reverb model of the car to cancel out the desired sound from each of the car's speakers, but that requires a fair bit more DSP and provides no real benefit over an external mic with an equalizer.... :-)

      Blaupunkt did this with the New York RCM127 and Bremen RCM127 - as this was their top-of-the-line car stereo, the whole system was heavily based on DSPs, enabling options you had never seen before.

      The "Dynamic Noise Covering" option is exactly what you described in your last paragraph. See http://www.blaupunkt.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Service/SERVICEDOKU_ZIEL/BA/GB/7646860010001_BA_GB.pdf , page 54ff, for an explanation. The calibration process took samples of the impulse response and 7-band frequency response with a separate in-car microphone and used that as a reference later. That was back in 1996. The technology used in their radios is still quite impressive today.

    18. Re:10 dB??? by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      First, let's address the stock standard shitty ass paper cones they use first. Sometimes riveted into the door (RAV4 here). Just last week my factory radio LCD freaked out and every button I pushed ejected a CD. Only until I turned the ignition off would it reboot. I understand I have a bad head unit. But still. Crap crap crap all the way around. For that much money I would at least like to get a decent unit with polypropylene speakers. That level of tech is at least 10 years old. So it should be relatively cheap to mass produce. Whatever.

      You're buying your car from the wrong company, if you expect high end audio equipment. Toyota does have some cars with good stereos, but they tend to be in the $50k+ range for the car. Subaru, by contrast, has been using Clarion for 20+ years, for both the speakers and the head units. The 6 speaker sound system that came with my 2011 Impreza is pretty good (and included as standard in every trim level above the basic)... it could benefit from some decent subs, but the 4 midrange and 2 tweeters that came with it are much better quality than you find in most cars.

      The thing is... with the amount of extraneous noise you hear on the road, and the choice between either having road noise, or listening in a closed box with the windows closed, you're never going to get top quality sound in a car... to the point that most people will never hear the difference between a 128kbit MP3 and a good quality FLAC. The car is the last place you want to listen as an audiophile.

    19. Re:10 dB??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The OP wrote 'relative to the vehicles current noise floor', which takes into account the road. This can be done relatively easy provided you've done it for 10 years or so.

    20. Re:10 dB??? by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      But.. If I bring in full-on, insulated, circumaural studio headphones to work to listen to instrumental music while designing stuff on the computer, I will appear to be isolated from my coworkers in a way that might be construed as antisocial. Which would have an impact at my salary review...

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    21. Re:10 dB??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or you could have a microphone in the cab that measures the ambient noise and adjusts the stereo's volume to compensate, which is exactly what my car stereo does.

    22. Re:10 dB??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So why don't they make a car track and a good stereo track on the CD/Batch-download?

    23. Re:10 dB??? by smellotron · · Score: 1

      I've got this song on my iPhone called "Map of the Problematique" by Muse, it has almost no dynamic range ... That song is a masterpiece.

      I have that song. It's awesome in my car. It sounds awful in my basement; the constant "crushed" feeling distracts too much from the overall energy of the song. My present solution is to listen to Foo Fighters at home and Muse on the road, but I really wish that someone would remaster BH&R. It is engineered worse than both their earlier and later albums, but IMHO it contains the best material, so I think it would sell.

    24. Re:10 dB??? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Which was covered in my post, but as I said, it is a heck of a lot harder to do correctly.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    25. Re:10 dB??? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Cool. I wasn't aware that anyone had actually done it. It's the obvious solution to the problem, though, which means they probably have a bunch of patents on it....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    26. Re:10 dB??? by kimvette · · Score: 1

      Well, I suppose you could have a microphone inside the car and use a reverb model of the car to cancel out the desired sound from each of the car's speakers, but that requires a fair bit more DSP and provides no real benefit over an external mic with an equalizer.... :-)

      Some cars actually have noise cancellation systems.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    27. Re:10 dB??? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Even that would be much more easily done with microphones located outside the car.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    28. Re:10 dB??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like quite a pain in the ass, fag.

    29. Re:10 dB??? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      I'll just borrow my brothers Dremel tool. That should do the trick. Also, I've been scoping out Crutchfield.com. I haven't ultimately decided on what I'm going to do, but I'm open to suggestions. At the most basic, I plan on replacing all four speakers with 3-ways (if available) and a new head unit. Crutchfield published in article that states if you have to replace a single part, the head unit made the most difference. Personally I call BS on that. In my experience, a pair of 3-way polys made a huge difference.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    30. Re:10 dB??? by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 1

      I never had a job that let me listen to music or surf the web or whatever else when I was supposed to be working. Instead I was always expected to be working.

      Imagine that.

      --
      This space available.
    31. Re:10 dB??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I drive a 2009 Subaru Forester. Had to find the feature on the factory stereo that compensates for driving noise. Funny thing is, now if I want to turn up the volume, all I have to do is open my window. :) And BTW, Techno sounds really awesome at 160 km/h.

    32. Re:10 dB??? by DigiTechGuy · · Score: 1

      This type of volume control is popular on boats. Most systems are RPM based. Of course on a boat your ambient noise is fairly consistent at a given RPM/MPH and most noise comes from the engine, with the wind a close second. Not as easy to do in a car where noise varies so much based on road type, traffic, window opening, gear, etc.

    33. Re:10 dB??? by adolf · · Score: 1

      It really all depends. Some of the most mundane factory heads (I'm looking at you, GM) have all manner of non-adjustable, fancy-pants DSP built in, just to help correct the deficiencies of the shitty speakers they include (DSP parts are cheaper than speaker parts).

      So, in that instance you'd really want to replace both the speakers and the head at the same time, since they're somewhat irrevocably mated.

      Not all companies do this, and I don't know enough about how Toyota does their stuff to be sure. Meanwhile, the Internet is full of misinformation about the topic.

      My BMW, for instance, has a 10-channel factory amp hidden in the back, but it expects 4 sets of normal, flat speaker-level inputs. Replacing just the OEM head with a different one is a plug-and-play operation, and everything works properly even from a signal theory standpoint, but there's still companies (including Crutchfield) lining up to sell adapters with transformers and stuff to "help" with this on this model...even though it's absolutely not needed (or even useful) in this particular instance.

      That said: If it were me, I'd probably replace the speakers and the head at the same time. I'd have done this on my BMW, but the speakers are mounted strangely enough that it'll be a bit more time and money than I'm willing to throw at it.

      (Also, too: If you get the correct mounting kit for a Toyota, it'll come with a handy little pocket for holding a phone or a pair of shades or something. It's kind of neat, and probably worth digging around for if you can find one.)

    34. Re:10 dB??? by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Mastering for cars is important. I hate music with high dynamic range because it cannot be used consistently to drown out other things. If I have some classical music (which is almost always mastered with lots of dynamic range), then I generally have to quickly skip it, otherwise the office/plane background noise that I'm trying to mute just annoys me too much.

      The problem is competing requirements. Home listening often demands high dynamic range, because that's the whole point - to feel the thumps in your whole body when the drums are hit to hearing the faintest winds in the quieter parts. (this is important in movies and video games as well for dramatic effect)

      The thing though is once you've lost dynamic range, you're not getting it back - the information on what was soft and what was loud gets lost. However, it's trivially easy to take a piece with a large dynamic range and compress it so the dynamic range is reduced.

      Many audio systems have methods for dynamic range compression - for home use, it's often called "night mode", but cars should also have some form of it to accomodate audio that would be more pleasant to listen at home and annoying in the car.

  25. I don't buy a lot of music by Beelzebud · · Score: 3, Interesting

    but when I do, I buy the CD and make my own flac set from it. Then I can re-encode that to mp3 for portability, etc.

    1. Re:I don't buy a lot of music by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      but when I do, I buy the CD and make my own flac set from it. Then I can re-encode that to mp3 for portability, etc.

      Stay thirsty, my friends.

    2. Re:I don't buy a lot of music by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is... the most interesting music listener in the world

  26. Loudness war by steveha · · Score: 5, Informative

    Wikipedia's article on the "loudness war" does a good job of explaining the problem.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

    I used to work for JJ Johnston. He took a popular music track (I won't say which one) and ripped a .wav file from the CD, and then ran a simple Matlab script that tallied how many samples there were of each value. CDs use 16-bit samples, so there were 64K bins in this histogram. You would expect a pretty much Bell-curve shape to the histogram. With this particular song, over half of all samples were either +1 or -1 (i.e., 16-bit sample values of either +32767 or -32768).

    That music is so horribly overcompressed that most of the wave forms are sawed-off into square waves. Square waves, in turn, add unpleasant harmonics, which make the music harder to enjoy, and make it louder (in the psychoacoustic meaning of "louder").

    I'm hoping that "audiophile" versions of songs become available, not because I think I need all my music in 24-bit 192KHz but because I'm hoping the mix engineers will be allowed to do the mix properly, instead of mixing it far too hot.

    I'm sort of afraid to buy remastered versions of old classic rock albums, because I'm worried they will actually sound worse than the originals!

    steveha

    --
    lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    1. Re:Loudness war by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm sort of afraid to buy remastered versions of old classic rock albums, because I'm worried they will actually sound worse [youtube.com] than the originals!

      They do. I used to use the oscillosope plugin for winamp, and you could directly see the effect of range compression. I think I did a comparison of new vs old versions of the same song, and it wasn't pleasant. For sure, the old, unmastered albums (like Dark Side of the Moon) had interesting structure even visually on the scope. I compared it to a modern album and it looked completely tortured on the scope.

      The worst I ever heard was a green day greatest hits album (I know, I know, blank CD), which was so distorted that even as a non-audiophile, I couldn't even listen to it.

  27. I'm sure the nice man means well by Leo+Sasquatch · · Score: 0, Troll

    and can probably prove it with an Etch-A-Sketch and 5 minutes of my time, but I can't take any of this stuff seriously. I listen to MP3s and they sound great to me. I listen to them on the bus, on the train, on my bike, in the city, all on standard earbuds, and it all sounds like it's supposed to.

    It's just that after reading the absolute pure f**king snake-oil that some of the component manufacturers put out about their products in a vain attempt to justify charging ten grand for a pair of *wires*, as soon as anyone starts getting needlessly technical about audio, it all sounds like yet more snake-oil.

    And so I end up grouping terms like lossless and FLAC and AAC with counter-spiral geometry, which is apparently why Audioquest can charge a thousand dollars a foot for a f**king power cable.

    1. Re:I'm sure the nice man means well by cpu6502 · · Score: 0

      >>> all on standard earbuds

      Try playing those same MP3s over a full-sized speaker system, and it will become immediately apparent they are deficient. For earbuds as low as 64k may be okay, but for speakers MP3s don't sound CD quality until they are 256k or higher (IMHO). It's somewhat similar to how I thought DVDs looked almost-perfect on my old analog CRT, but pretty bad on an HD monitor.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    2. Re:I'm sure the nice man means well by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Heh, ironically, just today, my coworker started bragging about how much better his FLAC sounds than MP3s, so we did some blind ABx tests. After one listen, the difference was so obvious that I could almost immediately tell which was which for subsequent tracks. He was right. So there is a difference between some of these things. Some things being snakeoil doesn't mean all things are snakeoil. Loudness is real (the article has a movie to teach you to hear the difference, if you care).

      The problem is you're not listening to it, but that doesn't mean the difference isn't there, it means you've closed your eyes. Or ears.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re:I'm sure the nice man means well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the reason you don't hear it is earbuds... or you're just deaf from playing them too loudly.

  28. so much good music coming out - last thing I care by jaypaulw · · Score: 1, Interesting

    so much good music coming out - last thing I care about is these sound subtleties.

    My favorite music medium to purchase now is this whole thing where you buy the vinyl and get an mp3 download code. I don't even own a record player but i get the tangible product which is undeniably satisfying and then the convenience of digital. It works out to be like $2 more than on itunes or the CD.

    JP

  29. MPEG-4 (AAC) Scalable to Lossless (SLS) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    An ever better idea would be more support for SLS:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4_SLS

    Basically all current decoders can read the SLS files like plain AAC files, and skip over the parts with extra lossless information. Updated decoders can read all the information for full quality.

    You can ship one set of files to everyone, and when people sync their portable devices, the SLS parts can be stripped if so-desired (to save on storage) without having to re-encode the files. It's also definable how much loss you can have: so you can choose between the standard AAC quality (e.g., on your phone), fully lossless (one's stereo or headphones), or anywhere in between (for computer speakers, which are often of middling quality).

    1. Re:MPEG-4 (AAC) Scalable to Lossless (SLS) by BanHammor · · Score: 1

      Also, it is probably patented to high hell.

  30. Re:FLAC is for archiving. by kyrio · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't it make more sense to use 192kbps files? That way you won't have to put them back on your player every day, just every week or so.

  31. Software created to win the Loudness War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Hi,

    Hopefully someone mods this up. There is a software product that's been in existence since 2007 that "UN-compresses" music to regain the frequencies lost due to loudness wars. Check it out: http://PlatinumNotes.com

    My teammates and I built it to solve this exact problem. It works on desktop for Windows and Mac.

    -Yakov

    1. Re:Software created to win the Loudness War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh man that's so stupid. you know you're stupid - right? I'm guessing the extra bits you put in come from the bit bucket? Ha Ha Ha.. I make myself laugh. So funny. I am such a funny guy. Bit Bucket

    2. Re:Software created to win the Loudness War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you used a spare half hour to code up an N-band equalizer. Congratulations.
      While I'm sure it's an improvement, it still won't compare to something that was correctly mixed and not thrashed by a lossy codec.

    3. Re:Software created to win the Loudness War by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      you can't repair what was lost.. not really anyway.. I'm sure you can fake it with algos to 'reconstruct' clipped peaks and such, but that's it's NOT the same.

  32. Call the dynamic range stuff limiting by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    Makes it clearer and a multi-band look-ahead peak limiter is usually what is being used to squash the dynamics out. The Waves L3 would be a good example (http://www.waves.com/content.aspx?id=3173). So for dynamic range, call it dynamic range limiting. For lossy or lossless data compression, call it compression.

    Helps keep it straight.

    1. Re:Call the dynamic range stuff limiting by bipbop · · Score: 1

      That'd create a lot of confusion, since compressors and limiters aren't the same thing. I doubt very much you'll find any AEs sympathetic to your idea. Just learn and move on.

  33. As a hobbyist sound guy... by billcopc · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Y'know, there's always someone harping all day long about how MP3 takes a steaming liquid crap all over your sound, and I cannot agree with them. I have a mid-range yet respectable sound system, worth maybe $4000 new. I listen to a LOT of music with an unforgiving ear for detail, and what I often joke as "digital audio memory". Anytime I listen to something, I'm comparing it to a very precise memory in my head. If the pitch is off by a hundredth, there's subtle (dynamic) compression, or phasing issues, I know immediately.

    Back when we were peddling 112 and 128kbps MP3s (y'know, 15 years ago), it was pretty obvious that our encoders sucked. You could hear the nasty phasing all over the high end. Today, with most dedicated rippers using "LAME -V0" or 256/320kbps CBR, I'll say that it is impossible to tell the difference on 99.9% of all music out there. Yes, you theoretically lose some high-frequency information above 19khz, but hardly any adults can hear those frequencies anyway, as our range of hearing degrades with age. At 32, I have supposedly great hearing, yet I can barely hear 18khz, and 19khz I can't really hear but just "feel" as pressure on my ears canal. The parts MP3 encoders discard, most people can't hear anyway, and even if we could, it's so high in the audio spectrum that it's just headache-inducing whine. In practice, many mastering engineers will filter that out anyway, because those frequencies are nothing but trouble, they can mess with playback on cheap (read: common) stereos, and are basically a waste of signal which could be better allocated to the mids.

    The compression artifacts themselves, they are nothing like they were 15 years ago. If you really want to see how much sound is lost from compression, take an uncompressed WAV, convert it to MP3, then back to WAV. Pull a spectrogram for both the original and processed WAVs, and compare these in a graphics editor. If you're lazy, you can grab the screenshots from here instead. If you're using photoshop, change the blending mode to "Difference" on one of them. Any coloured pixels are the differences, while black means both images are identical.

    So, that's digital compression. The other big thing audiophiles bitch about is dynamic compression, and that is an all-too real problem. This is the "brick wall" sound people often cite as the cancer that's killing music. It is the process by which quiet sounds are made disproportionately loud, resulting in the average signal level being louder across the entire album. Most common audio is stored as 16-bit data, this means there are 65536 different intensities available, from silence to maximum, across what is often quoted as 96dbfs of range. Most modern pop music crunches all the sound into the uppermost 6db, so you're kind-of getting 1/16th of the fidelity (yes my math is flawed). This makes crappy speakers and earbuds sound "better" (still shit), and good speakers sound equally shit. It's the sonic equivalent of turning the brightness and contrast on your TV all the way up, now everyone has bright red skin and look like cartoon characters. If you want a painful example of this distortion, cue up Metallica's Death Magnetic, the official CD or iTunes version. Then go find the Guitar Hero version of the same album on TPB and compare. The pressed version is brickwalled, the Guitar Hero version was mixed much more reasonably, in-line with past Metallica releases. Then if you want to hear the opposite, something with very wide dynamic range, try ZZ Top's Eliminator, or Van Halen's 1984. Björk's albums also tend to have good characteristics. You're looking for quiet sounds amid the louder ones - they might be the little squeaks of guitar strings or drum skins, or the long fade of a cymbal.

    Back to our buddy boy Ian Shepherd... one of his recommendations for good dynamic range is Daft Punk's Tron Legacy soundtrack. This is pretty much an admission that the man is completely full of shit. Don't get

    --
    -Billco, Fnarg.com
    1. Re:As a hobbyist sound guy... by xded · · Score: 1

      Today, with most dedicated rippers using "LAME -V0" or 256/320kbps CBR

      You may want to consider using VBR (or ABR, if target size or live streaming are a concern). I know that they may sound like exotic technologies (and yeah, I've been through the "Xing encoder" phase 15 years ago too...), but they are very well implemented on LAME and their net effect is saving bits for when they are really needed (so, a medium VBR may in the end be better than a 256 CBR, not being capped a-priori on the maximum bitrate). Same reasonment goes for joint stereo, it's not 1998 anymore and LAME *is* good at high bitrates (for low bitrate stuff however you may want to look at the original Fraunhofer encoder, LAME's algorithm circumvention shows up there...)

      It's the sonic equivalent of turning the brightness and contrast on your TV all the way up, now everyone has bright red skin and look like cartoon characters.

      Thanks. Now I know how to explain this stuff to Joe Sixpack. Besides, why isn't this analogy anywhere to be found in the article?...

      You're looking for quiet sounds amid the louder ones - they might be the little squeaks of guitar strings...

      You don't know what dynamic range is until you've heard the guitar player tapping with the thumb on the soundboard keeping tempo. Yeah, on that unplugged recording you've listened to a thousand times before getting a serious pair of headphones (happened to me after getting my Audio Technica's).

    2. Re:As a hobbyist sound guy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Listen to the "Tron Legacy" soundtrack rather than judge it by what Daft Punk has done that you're familiar with. And listen to all of it, not just "CD#1"

    3. Re:As a hobbyist sound guy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He was talking about ducking the tracks other than the bass drum track which is done automatically using a dynamic range compressor.

    4. Re:As a hobbyist sound guy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Today, with most dedicated rippers using "LAME -V0 " or 256/320kbps CBR

      You may want to consider using VBR.

      Perhaps you missed where he did consider using VBR, so I emphasised it just for you.

      Still miss it?

      -V0
      -V0
      -V0

    5. Re:As a hobbyist sound guy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > good dynamic range is Daft Punk's Tron Legacy soundtrack. This is pretty much an admission that the man is completely full of shit.

      No: he said that daft-punk uses compression skillfully to achieve certain artistic effect they're going for, not that it was an example of good dynamic range.

    6. Re:As a hobbyist sound guy... by billcopc · · Score: 1

      "lame -V0" is a VBR mode, a pretty high-quality one at that. You can tweak it further with -q0, trading encoding time for accuracy, and that's exactly what I use as my "archival" preset. The result usually lands around 200-250kbps averaged out, which is still 1/5th the size of the original WAV, so an album winds up around 100-120 MB. Small enough to sync a decent selection to my phone. And I whole-heartedly agree, a high quality VBR encode beats 256 CBR hands down.

      Perhaps counter-intuitively, I also tend to favour FLAC rips if I'm downloading albums - not because they sound better, but because I can then reencode them with my preferred settings. It beats having to deal with a sub-standard WMP rip.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    7. Re:As a hobbyist sound guy... by billcopc · · Score: 1

      I have, and it's great. That soundtrack got my mind buzzing with ideas for epic electronic tunes. It's just nowhere near the top of my list in terms of "best dynamic range".

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
  34. Re:FLAC is for archiving. by MightyYar · · Score: 1

    CD bought from a store is what I use for archiving.

    But who wants to re-rip every time they upgrade their gear?

    I did most of my ripping prior to FLAC being a realistic option - heck even AAC was still considered synonymous with Apple lock-in - so I used LAME --preset extreme. I figure it's a good bet that MP3 will be supported in damn near everything for as long as it is useful to store your own music.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  35. Confused. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MP3's have little to do with loudness or loudness wars. You can encode a quiet MP3, or one with soft and loud parts. The format has dynamic range.

    The loudness wars are about manipulating music in the studio to make it, well, loud. As loud as possible within the number of bits per sample that go onto the CD (without compression!).

  36. Yeah, I'll take his advice.... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    I have heard some albums mastered by Ian Shepherd. Several sound like crap with all the life compressed out of them. Pros that know what they are doing did stuff like you find on Mobile fidelity Gold masters. use ALL the dynamic range of the CD and make a recording that is BETTER than the Album. I have a copy of Supertramp crime of the century that will show anyone how good a CD can sound and how it can sound BETTER than an album. I have listened to raw tracks at studios on protools in the studio monitors that were incredible before they mashed them down.

    99% of all CD's mastered in the past 20 years are utter crap with compression and dynamic range stomed so hard on them that the blood and soul was left on the floor of the sound booth.

    Yeah, this man is no "expert" at anything but making a CD sound like shit. Otherwise he and his other "master" sound guys would tell the suits to shove things up their ass and make sure the dynamic range and life of the music was kept intact. Instead they say "yes sir, want me to turn up the autotune on the vocals and final mixdown compressor to 11?"

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  37. Bow down to Rice Encoding your one true lord. by asm2750 · · Score: 1

    I for one welcome our lossless encoding overlords.

  38. give this guy an award by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    considering how many brilliant, sarcastic funny responses he has elicited...I espically like the acoustico gravity wooden knobs...

  39. encoding by rossdee · · Score: 2

    I upgraded my MP3s to AFLAC - not only do I get a better sound, but if I am off work for injury, I get paid cash to buy groceries

  40. Sad to be a newton resident by cinnamon+colbert · · Score: 1

    as a resident of Newton, MA, I'm sad to share my home town with Pear (typical of fly by night companies, there is no easy to find physical address - not even a mailing address on the website

  41. Huh? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

    So, according to this article, MP3's of music that's been heavily compressed don't sound good.

    So maybe the problem is with MP3?

    "Better" or "worse" when talking about digital music is highly subjective. There are some very interesting effects that can be achieved through manipulating dynamics.

    Try to play an uncompressed recording at a dance club and see how it takes the air out of the room. What's good sometimes is not always good all the time.

    Some of my favorite moments in recorded music came from things that sound "bad" to your average recording engineer or hi-fi enthusiast. The last person you want making musical decisions is a hi-fi enthusiast. And make no mistake, compression can be used very musically, from subtle effects that you don't notice except there's something about a song or recording that really gets you, to very non-subtle over-compressed aural assaults.

    And I'm sorry if Bader Meinhoff Franfenfeurter or whatever the name of the guy who invented MP3 has his feelings hurt, but who cares if heavily compressed music doesn't sound good in Mp3? That's why God made flac. Plus, as the price of digital storage comes down, maybe we won't need to compress our files so drastically using lossy methods much longer.

    Oh, by the way, if you're interested in remixing well-known recordings, you can often find uncompressed copies of the unmixed master tracks if you know where to look. They've been around "underground" for years. In fact, I learned the rudiments of digital mixing and musical post-production from a copy of Logic Audio and the master tracks from a bunch of Motown classic albums, starting with "Heard it Through the Grapevine" on an early PPC Mac (well, it was a new mac at the time). I can't give out any links because it would make me persona non grata in certain circles, but if you visit the right forum and you're polite, you might find someone to share the goodies with you.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:Huh? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I really love this post. I mean, I genuinely SOL (snickered out loud.) But FLAC? As the price of storage comes down? I can't afford more disks right now, unless I buy some more old slow external ones. Wake me up when it actually DOES come down into the affordable range again. Until then I'm still ripping to "extreme" quality (ha ha) VBR MP3s, which play in everything I own and still sound pretty good.

      Slightly more ontopic: There is only one place where I can really listen to music in enough glory to hear the deficiencies in the audio, which is to say in my room in front of my PC with my refoamed Sennheiser HD420s hooked up to my old Sony STR-DE635, which is a credible enough amp in stereo mode even if it does suck eggs as a home theater amp. It's connected digitally to my PC, and I'm between turntables and not literally, so I can really only listen to digital sources at maximum quality. Since that's most of what I own it's not a serious problem. But the point is, most people out there can't tell the damn difference anyway, and even if they could, they don't have any audio equipment that would demonstrate it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Huh? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      But the point is, most people out there can't tell the damn difference anyway,

      Absolutely. I've got 30 years experience on and off as a professional musician and recordist and I can't even tell the difference.

      And I still have my HD420s, too. I think we're dating ourselves, drinkypoo. But that's OK, because some of my best dates have been with myself.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:Huh? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I didn't even buy these headphones new, I got them with deteriorated foams at a yard sale for five bucks. I had to do a bit of scrambling to find foams that would work (if you care I can probably figure out what I bought) because the foam is out of production, which is somewhat out of character for Sennheiser.

      I am an epic master of yard sailing. If only I had a yard somewhere in the Bay Area to buy stuff and bring it back to, I could make a mint just reselling stuff from up here in bumfuck.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  42. Just for comparison by inode_buddha · · Score: 2

    You do realize, some of the best recordings I have ever heard were done in the 1980's. Both Deutsche Grammophon and Telarc recorded directly to analog tape. I have *yet* to hear anything digital that compares, no matter how carefully re-mastered. (classical music FTW)

    --
    C|N>K
    1. Re:Just for comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize, some of the best recordings I have ever heard were done in the 1980's. Both Deutsche Grammophon and Telarc recorded directly to analog tape. I have *yet* to hear anything digital that compares, no matter how carefully re-mastered. (classical music FTW)

      Try the recordings of JS Bach, Scarlatti made by DGG on the Archive label back in 1960. Not to mention some of the Masterworks series from Columbia, for instance the Stravinsky conducts Stravinsky series from the same time period. At the same time there were some film tape recordings made by Philips and Angel ..on Angel try the Yehudi Menuhin recordings of Bachs sonatas and partitas for example.

      If the jerks that own them would only make them available in a lossless format. And fire the goofy wet behind the ears rock managers that have the engineers mix them for earbud and auto usage.

      I would open my wallet again. The truth is that the great recordings done in the 60-80s have not been equalled, the reason for this is that essentially microphones and the analogue tech necessary to record in the first place has not changed and great mic from 1960 is as good a brand new Neumann! Sony, the RIAA and the MPEGLA have done more to screw up classical music sales by completely alienating the audience and destroying what could have been great by ignoring the high end music listener. The bastards deserve to be put out of the classical music business and need to be taken down a notch by competition from people like Nexus and perhaps an online shop system that works by selling high end stuff in lossless either over the net or in kiosks in stores or a combo of both.

      Record stores are dead the only thing that could bring back a retail market would be online kiosks that could digitise to whatever the customer desires...disk, drive or whatever. The only thing stopping this from happening is the music industry, but I have the feeling that it could work and would create a whole method of distribution and a ton of business for the stores that take it on.

  43. Conflating Dynamic Compression w/Data Compression by SchMoops · · Score: 1

    Good Lord. Are people still confusing these two things? Words can have different meanings.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E5kCRsr4gQ

  44. "blind ABx tests" ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you take his FLAC of some song, and download an MP3 of the same song from a random website, and then compare the two? Because that means nothing.

    No, here's what you should do... FLAC is a _lossless_ compressed format. So you can take that FLAC file and do a proper comparison with it. Just uncompress the FLAC into a WAV file, and feed that to the best MP3 encoder you can find, set for various bitrates (e.g. 192, 256 and 320). Then do your blind comparison using the resulting MP3 files.

    Note, that if the FLAC file did not come from a real master, but is rather one of those crappy FLACs that somebody made by just decompressing an MP3 file and then re-compressing it as FLAC... then this test will still make the FLAC look better than it deserves because re-compressing the data (which has already been decimated by the first MP3 compressor's acoustic model) as MP3 will probably result in crappy sound quality.

    But if you start with a real uncompressed sound source and run it through a quality MP3 encoder at 256kbps, almost nobody can tell the difference.

    1. Re:"blind ABx tests" ? by plonk420 · · Score: 1

      i second this. were they your own encodes? Lame 3.98 is pretty much the best MP3 encoder out there. there are some compiles of it that you just drag a WAV (not sure about FLAC) onto it (lamedropXPd). make sure you're using V2 quality, if not V0.

      if you can hear the difference, well, i tip my hat.

  45. Music to my earbuds by csumpi · · Score: 2

    99.9% of people (not a scientific poll, just an guesstimation) listen to music with those crappy earbuds, while driving or on cheapo speakers.
    Wonder how much of this mp3 vs flac business their ears can pick up.

  46. Why MP3/AAC? by jones_supa · · Score: 2

    Why even consider lossy compression any more? In the current world we have the luxury of plenty of cheap storage, so why not use it and just keep everything in CD quality. A 500 GB HDD can store about 1000 albums uncompressed (even more if you FLAC them).

    1. Re:Why MP3/AAC? by Gaygirlie · · Score: 2

      Because most people can't hear the difference anyway so why waste space on stuff you won't hear?

  47. It isn't the hardware -- its the FANS ...! by SacredNaCl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This isn't a hardware issue, this is the issue of music fans thinking a CD is low quality if the volume doesn't red line their music player.

    As an artist, if you make a recording and your CD/master is lower in volume than the typical commercial tripe people will assume it is of low quality. So you end up taking your CD/master to places like Music Masters where they apply the $50-60,000 compression units, and noise reducers to enhance its "red-line" potential.

    This is the way the industry has been since at least 1993, and the only thing that has changed has been the introduction of lossy codecs. Lossy codecs have some interesting effects on their own where they tend to compress a sound, and ruin dynamics. Stuff that might only be a hidden layer on a CD can be very much front and center on an MP3/OGG.

    --
    Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all.
    1. Re:It isn't the hardware -- its the FANS ...! by evil_aaronm · · Score: 1

      Maybe, to some extent. However, not all of us are ignorant clods. I like loud music as much as anyone, but I like it clean. Even with my cochlear implant, I can tell the difference between anything by Rush and AC/DC, and that of, say, Van Halen. I love all three bands, but, except for Fair Warning - ignoring the Hagar stuff - VH consistently sounds worse than Rush and AC/DC. Rush, in particular, is really clear, even cranked to 11. AC/DC is almost always pretty damned good: the opening chords on Shoot to Thrill give me goosebumps every time. However, even on their newest album, A Different Kind of Truth, VH just boggles the mind that they would release something so badly mixed. A Perfect Circle has some good stuff, too: Magdalena is awesome at max in my car's stereo. I just turn down the volume on my implant so I can hear it nicely, but the car's mirrors are rattling.

      You can't paint all of us with the same brush.

  48. TFA's "good albums" list by plonk420 · · Score: 3, Informative

    so that article links to a list of 9 good albums, one of which is Nirvana's Nevermind. note: the 2011 remaster is smashed to the wall, and, iirc, you could even hear clipping: http://i.imgur.com/i0Vag.png

  49. DSOTM structure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Just look at the documentaries on how they made it. The recording equipment was really primitive by todays standards. Then there were the huge tape loops and other tricks that they use to get the sound that they wanted.
    That will readily explain the 'sound shapes' you are seeing.

  50. Ian's remark about 128kbit/s MP3s by Kohlrabi82 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Ian Shepherd's mentioning that one should avoid 128kbit/s encoded MP3. This is leaving out a critical piece of information. Luckily he mentioned himself that heavily (audio) compressed music (data) compresses very badly. This will be especially evident if you force the encoder to only allocate a fixed number of bits to a section, called "Constant Bitrate" (CBR) in MP3 encoders. "Busy" sections will get the same data allotment as quiet sections. This problem can be diminished by using "Variable Bitrate" (VBR) mode when encoding, which encodes to a specific target quality rather than file size. With that, (LAME) MP3s can still sound good enough around 128kbit/s, since the encoder is free to allocate more bits to critical sections and less bits to non-critical section.

    In short, there is no reason to use CBR encoding, unless your target device is unable to decode VBR encoded files, or you absolutely need to know the exact bandwidth requirement of a stream. It defeats the whole point of lossy encoding, which is to reproduce the original with highest possible fidelity, not reach a target file size.

  51. Don't solve it in the wrong place by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I really don't want sound engineers bringing CDs back to the way they were before--that music sounded pathetically weak unless the receiver was turned up significantly, and the bass instruments were still somewhat muted even if the bass drum had dominant presence. Seriously, put in a compressed dynamic range disc, then listen to the non-compressed dynamic range disc

    I'm aware of the difference, and I absolutely hate the compression and clipping that more than undoes the quality gain we had when the cd was introduced.

    Why not let your audio playback equipment handle it, instead of adding the distortion in the studio, so that people who prefer an undistorted sound can have it? Not everybody shares your taste, not even all people who listen to the same genres you listen to. You should be able to make the decision for yourself without making it for everyone. What you ask for is to solve your problem in the wrong place.

  52. Dynamic Range Day? by bickerdyke · · Score: 2

    Dynamic Range Day?

    TODAY???

    Good luck promoting that on your St. Patrick's Day parties....

    "Hey DJ, can you turn the volume up and down a bit? It's Dynamic Range Day today...."

    --
    bickerdyke
    1. Re:Dynamic Range Day? by CSMoran · · Score: 1

      Kingdom for a mod point.
      And something to wipe my coffee from the screen with.

      --
      Every end has half a stick.
  53. Compression makes sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's a reason for all the compression in popular music, and that's the conditions under which people listen. Dynamic range is fine in a lab, but I listen mainly to eighteenth and nineteenth-century music with very broad dynamic range and find that unless I'm in a nearly silent room, I her only a little piano and nothing pianissimo or softer. In a car, forget it, most symphonic music is completely unlistenable unless you keep turning the volume up and down. The very narrow dynamic range of most pop music makes it audible and enjoyable even when played on cheap equipment in noisy surroundings. As for the loudness of the mixes, well, there's no excuse for that.

  54. Re:Finally! Someone who knows something about musi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    MTV still broadcasts music videos? Where? All we (The Netherlands) get is My Super-Sweet-Jersey-Pranked-Pregnant-Circus. I vaguely remember MTV playing these "video-clips" in the past though.

  55. Waste of time by jwijnands · · Score: 1

    What does the average joe want? Booming bass and vocals mangled by whatever that weird pitch effect is almost every popular track seems to have these days

  56. Try the remixes then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've tried sharing 64, amiga, and Super Nintendo music on facebook but most people think it sounds like junk. They don't appreciate that electronic sound. (shrug).

    Try sharing some remixes instead. Listen to http://slayradio.org and download the remixes from http://remix.kwed.org/

    btw. Slayradio is great for coding :).

  57. Harming the quality of todays music by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    For the most part, the actual sound quality is not the problem :)

    Joking aside, 99%%of the population cant tell the differences. Also, convenience always wins out over quality.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  58. How to buy lossless? by tepples · · Score: 1

    Does Amazon even sell lossless, or must one have plastic shipped in order to lawfully acquire lossless files?

  59. Also mp3HD by tepples · · Score: 1

    In the same vein, there's a lossless MP3 format.

  60. Wall of Sound, the next generation by spaceyhackerlady · · Score: 1

    The excessively loud tracks remind of the old Wall of Sound production. LPs and AM radio had lousy dynamic range, so they blasted you. CDs have excellent dynamic range, WoS sounded awful, and the most effective CD recordings were the raw, almost live-sounding recordings.

    Now with MP3 and loudness wars, we're back to WoS. I didn't like it then. I don't like it now. ...laura

  61. I think most would be sympathetic by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    Since limiters are what are being used in the loudness wars. Compressors are used in music production, but they aren't what is used to drive levels to the roof. It is look-ahead peak limiters, that Waves one I linked to being one of the premiere tools. You can squeeze the shit out of a track with it before it ruins the sound completely.

    I'm speaking as someone who actually owns and has played with said tools. You can use a compressor, if you like (a compressor, limiter, expander, and gate are all the same thing from a programming standpoint, just different values being fed in) but a peak limiter is what you do use because it is easy and gets the results you want. In the case of the L3 just drag that far left slide down and everything gets louder. The other settings can change the timbre, or allow you to further optimize to squash it even harder.

  62. Yelling into a pillow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And record companies wonder why they aren't doing well. Reduced dynamic range, too-slow sampling rate, cookie-cutter songs. Recipe for fail, baby. You can only sell the sizzle so long before your customer gets hungry and goes elsewhere.

    Somebody above mentioned crappy speakers are the rule these days, not the exception. Its true, they -are- crappy. When you play music that's been badly mastered and had all the life compressed out of it, with a low sample rate, stored with a lossy codec, it already sounds boring. Play that boring record on a pair of crappy speakers that have hot-spots, dead spots and no high frequency response, driven incidentally by an amplifier which ALSO has no decent frequency response and is noisy, you get boring-squared, and in the end you can't even tell who's singing. Prince sounds like Britney Spears, and they both sound like Lady Gaga yelling into a pillow.

    So people are going to -pay- to hear that mush? NO, they download it instead or get it off their friends, duh. That's the record biz in a nutshell these days, pedal to the metal for bankruptcy.

    You can't fix stupid.

  63. don't get me started by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    show me a $20 portable flac player and i'm on board. aac? wtf. why would i be getting music from itunes?

  64. a damn shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's sad that my kids aren't able to appreciate the full depth and resonance and dynamics of their favorite vocal stylists chanting obscenities in an angry monotone.

  65. like dynamic compressed cds by Artemis3 · · Score: 1

    What makes people deaf seems to be passive exposure to monotonous, permanent noise.

    Dynamic compression overuse kills the natural breathing when you listen to music, the recording rapidly approaches white noise and looks like a solid rectangle when viewed with an audio editor.

    Obviously people listening to overcompressed music for long periods are getting in trouble. The problem is the labels keep demanding sound engineers to produce this crap.

    When you leave the dynamics in your music alone, you can listen comfortably for hours. Compress them away and your head starts hurting quickly... And they wonder why sales are going down...

    --
    Artix
    Your Linux, your init.