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Belgian Rightsholders Group Wants To Charge Libraries For Reading Books To Kids

New submitter BSAtHome writes "People with a healthy interest in fundamental freedoms and basic human rights have probably heard about SABAM, the Belgian collecting society for music royalties, which has become one of the global poster children for how outrageously out-of-touch-with-reality certain rightsholders groups appear to be. This morning, word got out in Belgian media that SABAM is spending time and resources to contact local libraries across the nation, warning them that they will start charging fees because the libraries engage volunteers to read books to kids. Volunteers. Who – again – read books to kids."

69 of 244 comments (clear)

  1. Crazy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What's next, having to pay money to sing in the shower?

    1. Re:Crazy! by nurb432 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, if anyone can hear you sing.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    2. Re:Crazy! by sourcerror · · Score: 5, Informative

      Didn't you get the memo? Even birdsongs are copyrighted.

    3. Re:Crazy! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      Do your showers constitute public performances? If so, rightsholders want their cut.

    4. Re:Crazy! by sourcerror · · Score: 4, Informative

      Here's the link to relevant story: link

    5. Re:Crazy! by QuantumLeaper · · Score: 2

      Only if you leave the window open...

    6. Re:Crazy! by davester666 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not if anyone CAN hear you sing.

      It's if anyone CAN POSSIBLY hear you sing.

      For example, if there is room in your bathroom for somebody else to stand, you would need to pay because you could possibly have a roommate standing there listening. And it's too much trouble to track whether or not somebody is there listening, it's just much easier copyright math to charge you assuming you are putting on a public performance.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    7. Re:Crazy! by thomst · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, it's crazy all right.

      These Belgian swine aren't legally permitted to charge children to BORROW these same books from the library and read them THEMSELVES, but they somehow have decided that they have the right to charge THE LIBRARY, if an adult reads them ALOUD to the same children?

      Apparently it takes a Belgian lintellectual property awyer to dumb down a village ...

      --
      Check out my novel.
    8. Re:Crazy! by CRCulver · · Score: 4, Informative

      These Belgian swine aren't legally permitted to charge children to BORROW these same books from the library and read them THEMSELVES

      I don't know about Belgium, but in many European countries libraries pay an annual fee to copyright holders to partly compensate them for perceived lost sales. Also, some European cities don't have the concept of free public libraries, and some kind of annual membership fee is required. Thus, even if the children aren't paying anything, their parents are.

      By the way, on Slashdot you can use the bold and italic HTML tags for the sake of emphasis, not need to write in caps which looks like SHOUTING.

    9. Re:Crazy! by Sipper · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, if anyone can hear you sing.

      I wish it weren't true, but sadly it is. This is why in the U.S. when you are given a "birthday cake" by a restaraunt, the waitresses cannot sing the standard "happy birthday" song and instead have to make up their own tune and their own lyrics, which don't invoke the same feelings that the standard song would have if they were allowed to sing it. This is an area of copyrights that I find invasive and counterproducitve.

    10. Re:Crazy! by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Informative

      Slight correction: The *tune* is actually past copyright. They can use the tune if they want. The words were written some time later, to fit the pre-existing tune, and remain copyrighted. So they could sing something else to the tune of happy birthday.
      "Happy song-day to you,
      We wrote this for you.
      We'd sing you the real one,
      But it's copyright too."

    11. Re:Crazy! by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I like to use the *old* for emphesis. Not because it's any better, but because it's a throwback to a time when we didn't need any of these fancy typesetting things to convey tone. ASCII was good enough then, and (with the addition of a bit of unicode for non-english text and math) it's good enough now.

    12. Re:Crazy! by Pharmboy · · Score: 4, Funny

      What's next, having to pay money to sing in the shower?

      Well, if there is an audience, yes. And it is about time they started making these freeloading children pay their fair share for entertainment. The librarians can always pay for the royalties by simply speaking a commercial every chapter. That way kids can learn about other important thinks like Coke, and the new Barbie. /sarcasm

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    13. Re:Crazy! by Noughmad · · Score: 2

      No, not really. The problem is that reality is increasingly out of touch with sense.

      --
      PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
    14. Re:Crazy! by EdIII · · Score: 4, Funny

      THANK YOU FOR THE 1990'S NETIQUETTE LESSON

      stop shouting. some of us got really drunk last night. it was friday you know.

    15. Re:Crazy! by jones_supa · · Score: 2

      By the way, on Slashdot you can use the bold and italic HTML tags for the sake of emphasis, not need to write in caps which looks like SHOUTING.

      Maybe he wrote the subtitles for Beneath the Steel Sky.

    16. Re:Crazy! by Sipper · · Score: 2

      Hahaha. Nice idea. Thanks for the information. :-)

    17. Re:Crazy! by jez9999 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I couldn't agree with you /more/. ASCII typesetting is a *beautiful* thing, with several major advantages:

      - It's easy to read
      - It requires _fewer_ characters to be entered than HTML typesetting
      * You can easily come up with new typesetting styles on-the-fly and their meaning is usually obvious...
      o ***Tradition, tradition***.

      ^ I wish more posters would return to the good old days for these reasons.

    18. Re:Crazy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Unfortunately, now no one can sing that without violating your copyright. Oh, I see what you're trying to do. Get everyone to start singing your "Words" in place of the original, then, once everyone is used to singing it that way, you swoop in with your lawyers and begin collecting royalties. Sweet!

            Step 1: Provide alternative lyrics for copyrighted Birthday song
            Step 2: Tell people on Slashdot they should sing those lyrics instead
            Step 3: Watch as the ever-so-influential Slashdotters spread the tradition far-and-wide in no time at all
            Step 4: Lawyer Up
            Step 5: Profit!

    19. Re:Crazy! by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Informative

      (C) Nobody. I'm not sure of the exact procedure for doing this, but in this hopefully legally binding post I give up all claim to copyright on that short 'happy birthday' protest song.

    20. Re:Crazy! by boarder8925 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Then I think many will appreciate Markdown.

    21. Re:Crazy! by BancBoy · · Score: 2

      I always sing the entire song, otherwise it bothers me until I finish it.

      I'm sailing away...

      --
      [UID-HeinzIntel]
    22. Re:Crazy! by kdemetter · · Score: 2

      Belgian cunt here.

      I don't know, I have no problem with English people. I have been there a few times, and most are indeed quite kind ( but your food is horrible, sorry about that ).

      However, being called 'cunt' , doesn't exactly help to improve relations.
      Judging all people of a country by it's lowest lifeforms, doesn't help either.

      I suggest we put our petty prejudices aside for a moment, and focus on the mutual enemy we have : groups like SABAM, RIAA ( and whatever the English counterpart is ).

    23. Re:Crazy! by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      I could have, but it seems pointless when the song is of so little value it isn't worth the effort of enforcing any licencing conditions.

    24. Re:Crazy! by arnodf · · Score: 2

      Another Belgian cunt here. I just don't understand what the English have against us. Even on the BBC (which should be considered of higher quality) you often hear them joking about Belgians and not the kind of joking we and the Dutch do about each other in a more friendly way.

    25. Re:Crazy! by Sipper · · Score: 2

      How about when customers sing the copyrighted song? :/

      This occasionally happens when the customer brings their own celebration cake. Customers singing the standard "happy birthday" song in my experience is tolerated and nobody says anything about the song being "non-free" to sing with the standard lyrics. i.e. who gets to choose and sing the song and lyrics seems to go with who brings the cake.

  2. Outrageous by Vlaix · · Score: 5, Funny

    And the kids should be charged with laziness. I mean, really, can't they read the books by themselves ? A generation of slackers, I call it.

    1. Re:Outrageous by Chrisq · · Score: 2

      And the kids should be charged with laziness. I mean, really, can't they read the books by themselves ? A generation of slackers, I call it.

      If its like the UK library groups it will be someone reading things like "The Gruffalo" to three and four year olds.

    2. Re:Outrageous by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Funny

      I could read when I was 3. I could speak full sentences when I was 1.

      But then I'm not a fucking Belgian.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  3. Evil and stupid, good work guys... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Psst. I heard this rumor that volunteers nurturing an enthusiasm for books in youngsters is what we call "free advertising" and "preserving the future of your market".

    I'd bet you a considerable sum of money that whatever you'll manage to wring out of volunteer reading groups at public libraries won't amount to 2/5ths fuck-all compared to the amount you'll lose because the larval Belgians are going to be growing up with fewer books and more of whatever other entertainment is available.

    There are times when being evil pays good money. This. Isn't. One. Of. Them. Dumbass.

    1. Re:Evil and stupid, good work guys... by Imrik · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But it will improve next quarter's profits, and that's all that matters.

    2. Re:Evil and stupid, good work guys... by erroneus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is *NOT* about the interests of the publishers. This is ALL about the interests of the lawyers who seek to benefit by suiing everyone they possibly can. That they are harming their "clients" business in the long term does not bother them in the slightest.

      The **AA and all of them are a bunch of lawyers with their own interests at heart. Sure, their clients 'allow' it to happen, but most of the time, they act quite autonomously and independently of their clients as can be shown by the numerous times these groups have sued over materials they don't hold the rights to.

    3. Re:Evil and stupid, good work guys... by laejoh · · Score: 5, Funny

      the larval Belgians

      me shudders in a lovecraftian kinda way

    4. Re:Evil and stupid, good work guys... by couchslug · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Larval Belgians should be told WHY they cannot be read to, and encouraged to remember their enemies. You are never too young to remember who fucked you over, and you have a lifetime for payback.

      Tell people "reading is subversive" if you want to get them to read.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  4. Say What? by Just+Another+Perl+Ha · · Score: 5, Insightful


    I'm sorry... but these greedy fucking cunts need to be taken out back and horse-whipped!!!

    1. Re:Say What? by 6ULDV8 · · Score: 2

      You have to careful letting that show in Austin. You'll get a ticket.

      --
      Pull my finger for my public key.
    2. Re:Say What? by s-whs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm sorry... but these greedy fucking cunts need to be taken out back and horse-whipped!!!

      This shows the moderation system on slashdot just doesn't work in some cases. This is not flamebait, this is a realistic depiction of what justice is supposed to be in cases like this!

      Language might be a little unappropriate, but that's nothing when compared to the action of these sabam a-holes!

    3. Re:Say What? by oodaloop · · Score: 2

      I'd horsewhip you if I had a horse!

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
  5. Public outrage. by stevenh2 · · Score: 2

    Once this gets into the mainstream media, there will be public outrage. If that doesn't top it, what will, after all SABAM will bribe all the people that make laws.

    1. Re:Public outrage. by Smallpond · · Score: 4, Funny

      There's a $30 charge for outrage. Sony owns the rights to it at the moment.

    2. Re:Public outrage. by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 5, Informative

      It did. The story is about a week old. After it broke SABAM claimed that the library in question does pay about 250 EUR, but it isn't for reading books but for music played in the library. SABAM said that it does collect money for public readings of books but it's only 15 EUR and the book has to be in copyright and be written by one of their member. (Source, in dutch.)

      All of this is BS of course these people try to collect on EVERYTHING and as much as possible. They're regularly collecting money for artists that aren't affiliated with them and tend to go after "soft" targets that don't have resources to fight back. They're scum.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    3. Re:Public outrage. by TapeCutter · · Score: 4, Informative

      Librarians are hardly a "soft target", they are well organised on a local, national, and international level, and have been successfully fighting censoring goverments and greedy publishers ever since they first opened their doors.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    4. Re:Public outrage. by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 2

      I keep reading stories like that from the US but have never heard anything similar out of belgium. Not to say it's maybe not the case but if it is I haven't heard of it. As for SABAM, I meant they often put individuals or small organisations in their sights. Youth parties, individual DJ's, bars. People who don't have the resources to get into a drawn out legal battle (in either time or money.)

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
  6. Most Appropriate Response by Scarletdown · · Score: 4, Funny

    And Belgian librarians and the kids they read to all vehemently and with much venom curse... "Belgium!"

    --
    This space unintentionally left blank.
    1. Re:Most Appropriate Response by jimmydevice · · Score: 4, Funny

      And with this action, the word "Belgium" starts it's declining status to the most vile curse word in the galaxy.

  7. Are they doing this on purpose? by CAPSLOCK2000 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can't figure out if these people are stupid, incompetent or both. Is there any way in which they can make themselves seem any less sympathetic?

    1. Re:Are they doing this on purpose? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Informative

      Its even stupider than that because (in addition to being wildly unsympathetic to just about any member of the public whose morality core hasn't been replaced by a board of directors) it appears to rest on the assumption that the demand for books is wholly inelastic and not at all governed by the production of new readers or competition from other sources of entertainment.

      Sure, maybe sometime before the advent of radio it was a trivial competition between 'reading' and 'backbreaking domestic drudgery' for the home entertainment market; but that hasn't been true for a while...

    2. Re:Are they doing this on purpose? by Wildclaw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There is a simpler answer. They are psychopaths the whole bunch of them and simply don't understand such concepts.

    3. Re:Are they doing this on purpose? by Omnifarious · · Score: 2

      Given that they're likely cooking their books to cover up bribery (RTA - all of it) I doubt they really care about seeming sympathetic. Bribe government officials to give them a club. Use club. Wash, rinse, repeat.

    4. Re:Are they doing this on purpose? by gman003 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Is there any way in which they can make themselves seem any less sympathetic?

      They could do exactly what they're doing, except while wearing Nazi uniforms and kicking puppies. Maybe run over some grandmothers on the way to the press conference.

    5. Re:Are they doing this on purpose? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      SABAM has a weight of legislation that gives it authority to do this. It is not doing this especially for the benefit of the creators of the works but because they are licensed to. They have no qualms taking a fee from gig's where the band plays all their own songs! The band, I can assure you never sees the royalty.

      I understand that civil process takes a long time in Belgium. Not many people have the resources or patience to test them in a court of law. Hopefully idiotic activities like this report will continue until the weight of opinion swings so hard that a balance is finally brought...

    6. Re:Are they doing this on purpose? by NEDHead · · Score: 2

      Who owns the 'SS' copyright?

  8. Summary is incorrect by it0 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Fascinating the greed that impacts simple people every day live and to to what use?

    There is a communication on sabam's website to rectify the miscommunication that appeared in the media, they did not charge the library 250 euro, no it was only 239 euro's but for playing music in the library.

    For a public reading they would collect 15 euro's per public reading if the work is protected and the rightsholder is represented by sabam.
    Do not and did not collect this fee.

    1. Re:Summary is incorrect by chichilalescu · · Score: 5, Informative

      the summary is correct. SABAM clearly states that they want 15 euros per public reading (if the work is "protected"). and the GP knows this, still he acts as if this is perfectly normal. And, in the message by SABAM, they make it pretty obvious that they intend to ask for these +/- 15 euros whenever they can.
      just check their webpage, in french or dutch, if you don't believe me (this incident is not mentioned on the english version).

      --
      new sig
  9. Even better: it's a "misunderstanding" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    SABAM (the group in question) said, in a response, that it was a misunderstanding (translated, Dutch original). They charge 15 euro per public reading, and they cannot distinguish between adults and children. They always have to charge (their words, not mine).

    For those of you wondering where the misunderstanding is: they invented a nice strawman for that, by saying that the library wasn't yet slapped with a yearly fee of about 250 euro. Which is true, that hadn't happened yet. But, from the sound of it, SABAM has every intention to do so.

    Thankfully, this hasn't gone unnoticed. SABAM is losing favour with politicians. Hopefully this storm will go somewhere. Note that SABAM isn't the only rightsholder club in Belgium (there apparently is some competition! yay free market!), so dissolving them ought to be an option.

    1. Re:Even better: it's a "misunderstanding" by sjames · · Score: 2

      It shouldn't matter. They ARE doing these things, they're just upset that they're not free to slap first and apologize later (if and only if they get caught by the public).

      They come out looking like the worst kind of scum in public because they ACT like the worst kind of scum in public. If you have a go around kicking puppies and stealing candy from babies it's only natural that people will think that's what you're up to even when you happen not to be for once.

    2. Re:Even better: it's a "misunderstanding" by tinkerton · · Score: 2

      Maybe Belgian society is different

      I think belgian society considers SABAM to be opportunistic sharks.

  10. They are horrible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    As a belgian I can only confirm that they are the most horrible kind of "rightsholder group" you can imagine. Some of their "royalties" include. An extra tax on every dataholder (empty CD's, hard drive's, memory cards, ipods, etc...), local bands have to pay a fee when they perform even when they only perform their own songs (because they are influenced by ...), they collect fee's from doctors waiting rooms, pubs, private parties, buses, even on the work-floor when there is music playing, ...

    1. Re:They are horrible by polar+red · · Score: 3, Informative

      confirmed; sadly enough.

      --
      Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
    2. Re:They are horrible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is any of the above true? Can a non-AC Belgian confirm? This is mind-boggling. These assholes sound worse than the BSA - and I didn't think that was possible.

      Hold on a mo, I'll just create an account and be transformed before your eyes from unscrupulous AC to pillar of the Slashdot community.

  11. They need to collect more! by whoop · · Score: 3, Funny

    This is piracy, plain and simple. The publishers are losing millions, if not billions, because each kid now won't need to buy the book themselves. They need to multiply the cost of the book by the number of kids being read to, and add a half dozen zeroes to the end for good measure.

    Copyrights are to be taken very seriously, folks! This mass, rampant piracy needs to come to a close immediately so these poor, kind, destitute authors can get what is due to them.
     

  12. Re:Because it's for kids, because it's by voluntee by chilvence · · Score: 2

    If you have actually convinced yourself that, there is no redeeming you.

  13. The Problem by no-body · · Score: 4, Insightful

    with all those sensational messages is that the individuals making the decisions are unknown. It's an organization of some kind with some capital letters as abbreviated name.

    Who are those persons?
    Spokesperson - Jerome Van Win - http://www.facebook.com/jvanwin ??

    SABAM headquarters is located at 75-77 rue d'Arlon in Brussels

    Christophe DEPRETER has been the Managing Director of SABAM since 1 July 2009.
    http://www.sabam.be/en/sabam/management
    http://www.raaskalderij.be/2012/03/sabam-noemt-uitbreiding-activiteit-logische-stap/

    Carine Libert, Department of Legal Affairs and International Affairs http://www.facebook.com/people/Carine-Libert/100002967307348

    Luc Van Oycke, Director of Administration and Finance http://kopimiuk.wordpress.com/tag/luc-van-oycke/

    Willy Heyns, Director of ICT http://www.facebook.com/people/Willy-Heyns/100000541173703

    Jac Cuypers, COO http://www.facebook.com/jac.cuypers

    Serge Vloeberghs, Director of Sales http://www.facebook.com/people/Serge-Vloeberghs/1171478165

    Sandrine Evenepoel, Director of Human Resources http://www.facebook.com/sandrine.evenepoel

    E-mail : contact@sabam.be - yaaawn!

    Shame them!

  14. Re:SABAM members don't have kids by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Informative

    And they don't know how to read either.

    They're excellent readers. Under every sign - no smoking, one way street, no dogs allowed - they can see the words "for everyone else" that I simply can't detect.

    Why these people exist in this world ?

    The estuary of the Scheldt is the ideal place to assemble a fleet to invade England.

    England didn't want the Dutch, French, Austrians, Spanish or whatever passed for Germans at that time to have it.

    Now, they'd have been happy to garrison it, for the benefit of its populace of course, just like they had for ... well, most of the world actually. But there was one slight problem.

    See, the Dutch, French, Austrians, Spanish and whatever passed for Germans at that time didn't want the English to have a beachhead on the mainland, because they'd misbehaved somewhat on more than one occasion when they still had Calais. Go back a bit further to when the limey buggers still had Aquitaine; they managed to start a war that went on so long they actually lost count of how many years it lasted and had to just bloody guess when it came to naming it.

    Hence, the only solution to the impasse was to invent a fictional entity to put it in. Sort of like Washington DC.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  15. I'm glad our library system is established. by Beelzebud · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You know damn well if we were trying to set up a public library system in America today, it would never be allowed. Corporate power doesn't give a shit about the culture of a nation, only the bottom line.

  16. Secret Readings by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 4, Funny

    I forecast a rise in secret reading sessions -- word passed among friends, person to person, with ... Where the Wild Things Are read to a carefully-selected band of Reading Rebels. In secret.

    Shhh!!!

    --
    Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
  17. Re:I don't see the problem here by sjames · · Score: 2

    Perhaps most people don't ACTUALLY believe in information ownership. Many are perfectly fine with the concept of a 'commercial copyright' where you must respect copyright when you engage in commerce, but very few believe that sharing with friends, volunteer or charity work in the public interest, and similar non-commercial pursuits should be included.

    People are somewhat split on the large scale file sharing. It's non-commercial, but a bit beyond the bounds of sharing amongst friends. Even there, I suspect most people are against liabilities that exceed a lifetime income.

  18. OK, that tears it. by bmo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    These people are just evil.

    Courts are there so that people do not resort to /other means/ for just ice.

    Bullying libraries and others because you're not making enough (in your twisted world) short term money (hey guys, teaching kids to love books and reading means you have future customers) means you are a leech on society and you should be removed. Permanently.

    I suggest it's time for /other means/

    --
    BMO

  19. Two can play that game by bratwiz · · Score: 2

    I think the best way to retaliate is to copyright your farts. Then you can charge people for smelling them.