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Apple May Need To Rethink 4G Claims (and Pay Refunds) In More Countries

Posted by timothy on from the bathing-in-lawyer-saliva dept.

redletterdave writes "After the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) won a battle with Apple after alleging the Cupertino-based company was misleading customers about its third-generation iPad, authorities in other countries are now assessing the compatibility of the new iPad with local 4G LTE networks to see if their customers should deserve refunds too. The UK's Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) confirmed on Tuesday that it is investigating complaints of Apple's misleading '4G' claim, while Sweden and Denmark are also reportedly considering investigations, after agencies within both countries received 'several complaints' from customers about 4G connectivity. Even though these countries carry broad LTE coverage, the new iPad isn't supported on any of those networks."

32 of 105 comments (clear)

  1. 4G does not yet exist by imagined.by · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Currently, there's not a single commercial 4G network deployed anywhere on the planet. LTE is officially 3.9G, so every manufacturer or carrier that advertises 4G is bullshitting just as much as Apple. Which doesn't make it better, but still.

    1. Re:4G does not yet exist by UnknowingFool · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I blame this part on the 4G standards body. If they had taken a hard stand when some carriers advertised "4G" when they were not, then AT&T and Apple and the like wouldn't have much room to argue. Instead there's some wiggle room as they can argue that 4G designation applies to them as well.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    2. Re:4G does not yet exist by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2, Informative

      LTE isn't considered 4G mostly because of the speed. Whereas HSPA+ are upgraded 3G networks that are faster theoretically than LTE.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    3. Re:4G does not yet exist by raitchison · · Score: 4, Informative

      Faster theoretically maybe but not in reality, I've got a "4G" HSPA+ T-Mobile phone (which is the fastest of all the fake "4G" networks) and an AT&T LTE phone and where I can get an LTE signal it destroys the HSPA+ network. The fastest I've ever seen on the HSPA+ network was 5MB, the slowest LTE I;ve seen was 10MB.

      In any case IMO the blame does indeed fall with the ITU, they set the "4G" barrier artificially high so that LTE let alone WiMax wouldn't get there, which invited the carriers to say fuck it and start slapping the "4G" label on their existing 3G networks. If the ITU had just said that LTE and WiMax were 4G we wouldn't have this problem.

    4. Re:4G does not yet exist by tlhIngan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I blame this part on the 4G standards body. If they had taken a hard stand when some carriers advertised "4G" when they were not, then AT&T and Apple and the like wouldn't have much room to argue. Instead there's some wiggle room as they can argue that 4G designation applies to them as well.

      Yeah, and it's highly annoying. If you want an LTE device (phone, stick, hotspot, whatever), you can't just look at 4G devices, because an annoyingly large number of them are really just HSPA+.

      Now, technically Apple sells the iPad as 4G, with LTE support. But since the iPad also supports HSPA+, if other HSPA+ devices are sold as "4G" devices, Apple's in the clear as it's just LTE is not supported and following everyone else's convention of calling HSPA+ "4G".

      Now if Apple sells it at 4G LTE, they're in trouble since the "LTE" part doesn't work.

      Heck, maybe at the end it'll clarify "faux G" from real 4G.

    5. Re:4G does not yet exist by halltk1983 · · Score: 2

      I routinely get over 10 mbps at my house on the HSPA+ t-mobile network whenever I test it. It's actually fast enough that most of the time I don't realize when I forget to turn the wifi back on when I get home. Video calls are clear, browsing is snappy, and netflix streams cleanly. When I tether, either with the cable, or as wifi, its plenty fast for me to do my work, and all the things I normally do at home. Perhaps different markets respond differently, with different towers being busier or less busy, depending on the technologies available.

      --
      Watch for Penguins, they eat Apples and throw rocks at Windows.
    6. Re:4G does not yet exist by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

      Ahhh. What you did was equivalent to if I said the speed limit is 65 miles. Then it should be Mb/s (megabit per second). Or MB/s (megabyte per second).

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    7. Re:4G does not yet exist by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      I routinely get something over 300 baud at my house (in plain sight of a tower). Calls just might go through. Bringing up a web page on the browser is an exercise in patience and battery capacity. Forget streaming anything except invective language.

      I hate AT&T. Keep bragging and I might get to dislike you as well....

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    8. Re:4G does not yet exist by Carewolf · · Score: 4, Informative

      Outside of the US, only LTE has been advertised as 4G. You can call it a translation blunder if you like, but Apple is really the first manufacturer to call a non-LTE device 4G in many countries. This is the backlash.

    9. Re:4G does not yet exist by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2

      According to the ITU, the specification for "4G" has a minimum speed. LTE nor WiMax can meet the speed specification but carriers like Sprint and Verizon have advertised their LTE and WiMax networks as "4G" but the ITU did not challenge them on it. This has allowed AT&T and others to be able to claim their 3.5G networks as "4G" as well as theoretically they are faster. In reality data speeds are subject to all sorts of throttling conditions.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  2. They need to rethink 4G claims in the USA, too by JWyner · · Score: 2, Interesting

    AT&T "4G" is a joke here. After a week of running around looking for WiFi in order to even use my iPad here in Los Angeles (supposedly one of AT&T's "LTE" markets), I finally returned the iPad for a Verizon model. It's a completely different device. 12-15mbps down / 5-10mbps up throughout LA and the valley. The AT&T model of the iPad is *not* a 4G device...

    --
    "Owning a computer is like having your very own TV -- with a built in radio!" - Ed Helms
    1. Re:They need to rethink 4G claims in the USA, too by teh31337one · · Score: 5, Informative

      Funny story: When the iPad on AT&T displays "4G", it's connecting to HSDPA or HSPA+. When it shows "LTE", it's connecting to 4G LTE.

    2. Re:They need to rethink 4G claims in the USA, too by JWyner · · Score: 2

      Wish I could mod you up: that is precisely my point! Only once could I find a location where the AT&T model would even show "LTE" vs "4G". The entire AT&T 4G marketing scam is, imho, lawsuit-worthy false advertising. (Although it's really awesome to have my brand new 4G iPhone now, since updating to iOS5.1).

      --
      "Owning a computer is like having your very own TV -- with a built in radio!" - Ed Helms
  3. Re:Look at the actual adverts... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://www.apple.com/uk/ipad/

    Ultra-fast 4G. Full speed ahead.

    Designed with next-generation wireless technology, the new iPad with Wi-Fi + 4G connects to fast data networks around the world.

  4. Re:It's only 4G in America by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2

    The basic confusion for the consumer is what is "4G". LTE and WiMax are almost 4G except for the speed. But speed is part of the spec. Yet carriers like Sprint and Verizon have labeled their networks as "4G" when they do not fully comply with the spec. This leaves AT&T(HSPA+) and others to declare their 3.5G networks as 4G as well. The consumers are the ones that will lose.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  5. Re:Look at the actual adverts... by teh31337one · · Score: 2

    http://www.apple.com/uk/ipad/

    Ultra-fast 4G. Full speed ahead.

    Designed with next-generation wireless technology, the new iPad with Wi-Fi + 4G connects to fast data networks around the world.*

    * Only in America. Fixed that for them.

  6. Re:But in the ads by moronoxyd · · Score: 5, Informative

    It specifically says which LTE networks are supported. Is the new standard for ads now to be that only the largest print claims count?

    If they sell their iPad in $country saying it 'supports LTE' than yes, as a customer I expect to be able to use LTE in THAT COUNTRY. Putting in the fine print 'only if your in the US or Canada' is misleading advertisement.

    That may not be a problem in the US, but in other parts of the world, especially in Europe, ads are expected to be truthful and not misleading. Trying to wiggle out by using the fine print to basically negate the statments you make in big letters may run afoul to consumer protection.

    And I still wonder: Why did Apple use a chipset that only supports the LTE frequencies used in the US and Canada? There are chipsets that support the other frequencies.
    Would it have been to expensive to build two or three different models for different markets? Would it have been to expensive to use a chipset that supports all frequencies (assuming such a beast exists)?
    Or is it just once again the America-centric world view that Apple (and other companies) have shown more than once in the past?

  7. Re:our car can go 100mph! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting
    How DARE they say anything bad about my precious Apple! I must make metaphors that dont make any sense or relate in any way to the subject at hand to make them sound stupid!

    See how you sound?

    The fact of the matter is the VALID metaphor would be selling a car claiming it will do 90mpg, only it only works on fuel that doesnt exist yet, which is essentially what Apple did.

  8. Re:Look at the actual adverts... by MightyYar · · Score: 5, Informative

    Yeah, that is misleading - even if it dose say at the bottom:

    4G LTE is supported only on AT&T and Verizon networks in the US, and on Bell, Rogers and Telus networks in Canada. Data plans sold separately. See your carrier for details.

    It implies that 4G will work "around the world", yet it only works in the US and Canada... not even the UK market where this is advertised. The Australian page has the exact same copy.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  9. Re:our car can go 100mph! by VMaN · · Score: 2

    Well, if you advertise the car as a 100mph car, and OTHER cars don't have a problem driving 100mph, but your can't because the special fuel isn't available this side of the atlantic, I'd cry foul too.

  10. Re:our car can go 100mph! by Baloroth · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you advertise a device as "4G-LTE" compatible without qualification, and it not compatible with 4G-LTE in that country (where you are advertising it as 4G-LTE compatible), that is misleading advertisment.

    The car analogy would actually be saying "This car can go 100mph!" when it can only go 100mph if you drive it down a hill. Technically correct, but not actually an applicable statement in most situations where you actually drive the car, and therefore misleading advertising.

    And yes, advertising is often misleading (that is a fair amount of the point of advertising), but to advertise a device so that it looks like it has worldwide 4G capability (which they did) when it does not (which it doesn't) is false advertising.

    --
    "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
  11. Same situation in Finland by Sami+Lehtinen · · Score: 2

    In Finland they have same problem. They're adverising 4G features, even if those aren't supported in Finnish frequencies. Finnish operators are also advertising DC-HSPA as 4G even if it isn't. As far as I know only LTE Advanced would be real 4G. This is just like LED-televisions. Well, why they still got that LCD element there? It shouldn't be needed at all when you got real LED-tv.

  12. Re:Look at the actual adverts... by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

    >>>Ultra-fast 4G. Full speed ahead..... the new iPad with Wi-Fi + 4G connects to fast data networks around the world.

    Except 4G only works in North america. I didn't realize the U.S. and Canada were now considered "the world". Wow. Did the Congress bomb everyone else into oblivion?

    --
    My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
  13. Speaking of which by gelfling · · Score: 2

    As a Sprint customer living in Raleigh NC I can attest that for the most part their claims of 3G let alone 4G are a farce. Data network coverage is spotty down to the individual home on the individual street. If you move literally 50 ft your coverage drops out. Speed tests regularly show 1kpbs down and 0.1 kbps up. But since Sprint charges you $10/month for every phone which CAN access 4G whether it actually does or even whether Sprint offers the service where the phone is used, this is how they get around the 'unlimited no caps' issue that the other carriers have. They simply charge everyone for what does not exist and this makes up for the bandwidth hogs.

  14. Porsche vs Beetle by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 2

    And a VW Beetle is faster than a Porsche even when the Porsche is in excellent condition with a skilled driver behind the wheel. But if I bought a Beetle based only on it being "faster than a Porsche", and then discovered it wasn't, I'd be rather pissed off.

    How is Apple's 4G chicanery any different?

    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
  15. Not even close to 4g by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have AT&T in the DC Metro area here with "4g" (HSPA+).

    It's pretty rare that I can even break 1mbps, let alone the theoretical max of 14mbps. The very best I've seen is around 5mbps and that was in one very rare instance.

    Seriously until they can get at least near LTE speeds which are close to broadband, it's pretty ridiculous for them to claim they've leapt forward a generation.

  16. America-centric world view by carpefishus · · Score: 2

    America IS the center of the world and, barring the current administration, is unashamed of the fact. Sheesh. Get over it.

    --
    Facts take all of the premium out of arm waving - T. Reynolds
  17. Re:our car can go 100mph! by Baloroth · · Score: 2

    Try looking at the Australian version of that page: http://www.apple.com/au/ipad/4g/ Sure it does mention that 4G works only in the US, only in fine print, and not where it talks about the 4G features themselves. I also don't know if that was a recent addition or if it said that at launch. The page also states "iPad with Wi-Fi + 4G models connect to GSM/UMTS networks worldwide" and there is no mention there that 4G functionality only works in the US/Canada. You could also argue that "4G LTE" isn't specific enough (not all forms of 4G are LTE) to make it clear to consumers that 4G only works in the US.

    --
    "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
  18. Re:It's not "Pay" refunds... by Frankie70 · · Score: 2

    Agreed, no need to tell customers that it's pre-owned.

    Surely, you mean "pre-worshipped".

  19. Re:Look at the actual adverts... by MightyYar · · Score: 2

    I'm quite literate and I find this literature misleading. Just because it is technically correct does not make it any less misleading. I like Apple and their products, but I don't like ads like this.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  20. Re:Look at the actual adverts... by thegarbz · · Score: 2

    You think that's bad? This Australian specific page on the Apple website makes me think straight away that Optus Virgin and Telstra are the phone companies that I need to talk to in order to get the full benefits of the iPad.

    Telstra's 4G network doesn't work on the frequency used by the iPad, and the other two companies don't even offer 4G, not even HSPA+.

  21. Re:our car can go 100mph! by Cimexus · · Score: 2

    At first (i.e. for the first half of release day), the Australian site was loudly proclaiming "4G!!!!" in large font in the headings. That's the problem. They rapidly changed it once they realised they were going to get in trouble, but the site you're seeing now is quite different than how it appeared on launch day.