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Firefox Demos Prototype Metro Interface
In order to provide an alternative to IE on Windows 8, Firefox needs a Metro UI. Luckily, development of a Metro interface for Firefox is well underway. The current build reuses the Android interface XUL (by virtue of being based on Fennec). The latest test release features lots of platform integration support: "We have Metro snap working, you can snap another Metro app to the right or left of Firefox and continue browsing.
We also have HTML file input controls tied up to the Metro file picker. ... implemented the Windows 8 search contract, you can use the Search Charm from any screen on Windows 8. If you enter a URL, it will be loaded. If you enter anything else, it will be searched in your default search engine. We also implemented the Windows 8 share contract, you can use the Share Charm from any Firefox page to share that page to another application. Once you select the Share Charm it will list the applications you can share to, for example: Mail, Twitter, or Facebook." If you're interested in following development, the team has made a Mercurial repository available.
Further background is provided by the first and second posts in the series.
Will Metro Firefox share information with desktop Firefox? Currently, Windows 8 has a Metro IE and a desktop IE that don't share cookies or bookmarks. It's pretty hilariously bad.
Well they won't on the ARM edition...
I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
Windows 8 won't allow any browser to become the default unless it's accessible through the Metro UI. It's still the same firefox and can be accessed from the non-Metro interface too.
Nice trolling.
Normal programs will run just fine in Desktop mode on Win8. However, if you want your program to be on the new default dashboard interface (Metro) then it has to be a Metro app. And since both IE and Chrome can appear there, it makes absolute sense that FF should have the feature included as well.
If you want to be a full replacement to IE, you need to be a full replacement to IE, and that means showing up in the system wherever IE can show up. If you actually RTFA, you'll see they're talking about hooking into Win8's built-in browser search and sharing hooks, as well as showing how easy it is to add a Metro interface to FF because of the already existing theming layer within FF.
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
Sure does seem like that, doesn't it. There was a reason I switched to Chrome as my surfing browser. What concerns me more about what this whole thing says about the open and free nature of Firefox. You know you can't publish anything for Metro without Microsoft's express consent, right? I'm not saying the M wouldn't approve it, but even if it did; especially if it did, you would be installing yet another piece of Microsoft approved software on your desktop. Think about that for a minute. If you're in the business of using Microsoft approved browsers to begin with, why would you care that Firefox even exists in the first place. Answer? You wouldn't.
Windows 8 runs just fine with regular Windows apps. I'm using it at home as my main OS because Ubuntu shit on itself, and Mac OSX won't install with my video card. Even though I have Windows 8, I'm really not enjoying Metro. I have yet to see a compelling need or app for it. I spend most of my time in Desktop mode because it works better. It's pretty much identical to Windows 7, with a much improved start menu system. That I like. I just think Metro, and Firefox are for the birds. That's all.
I'm not sure the OP was trolling... it sounds more like sarcasm to me, but I like your response apart from that.
Because a normal desktop UI doesnt work so hot on a tablet, which in the future are bound to replace a big portion of the desktop market. Hybrids (like the Transformer Prime), with a 2 mode tablet/desktop interface, like Windows 8, could seriously replace lap-tops for everyone except serious developers and graphic designers/3d artists/CAD/etc that need a lot of horse power.
Sticking to desktop-only UI would be suicide for Microsoft. Metro works quite fine if you look at it from a tablet point of view.
I find Metro to be counter productive, distracting, and unfriendly. Why are they doing anything with Metro?
I guess because they neglected to consult with you beforehand?
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
What is going to be the alternative for people like me who like the WIMP model in a desktop OS?
Work really hard so you can retire before Windows 7 goes EOL.
Sure does seem like that, doesn't it. There was a reason I switched to Chrome as my surfing browser.
But that's the problem. I've used Chrome and it's just not as good as Firefox. As much as Firefox pisses me off with all the incredibly bad design decisions they've made, Chrome has too many things that don't work as well as Firefox, or don't exist at all.
Friends don't let friends use IE....
Sig?! Sig?! We don't need no stinking sig!!
Oh I'm certain the GP was using sarcasm... which is why I interpreted it as trolling (looks like some mods agree with me). The GP was implying that FF did not need to implement a Metro interface because that continues in the tradition of "Let's make Firefox worse!!"
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
Don't they also need to be 'approved' by Microsoft? ( or is this no longer the case?) I was actually half expecting them to do what Apple does and block other browsers. The precedent seems to have been set.
Who the fuck marked this "interesting"? Clearly not anybody who has actually used Windows 8, because then those folks would know that "Windows 8 won't allow any browser to become the default unless it's accessible through the Metro UI" is absolutely fucking incorrect.
By the time Win7 reaches EOL, perhaps ReactOS will have had a 1.0 release!
Anyone else notice that in one of the screenshots of the new interface the browser is showing slashdot?
(You'll have to read TFA to see it though)
All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
You seem to think that the Desktop paradigm will survive the RTM.
It won't.
Have fun with Metro, Windows guys.
--
BMO
It will. Microsoft will not make existing apps incompatible with Windows 8.
Stop spewing lame FUD.
This space for rent.
I knew it was all going downhill when I tested the developer preview and my boot screen was a fish.
You're wrong. Windows 8 does allow any browser to become the default, same as before. The catch is that it has only one global (per-user) setting for "default browser" without separation into desktop and Metro. So, if you make some browser default, and that browser does not support Metro, then all URLs in Metro apps will open the desktop app, which is not very convenient - so if someone is heavily using Metro, they will likely only make browser default if it supports Metro.
And since both IE and Chrome can appear there
Does Chrome have a Metro version already? Where can I get that?
Regular Metro apps can only be distributed via Windows Store, and, yes, that includes Apple-style app approval model (though it doesn't have some of the more nasty Apple rules, such as "no competing apps" - so other Metro-only browsers are fine).
That said, browsers are special-cased. More specifically, if a desktop application is installed and registers itself as a handler for http: URI schema, and the user selects that application as the default browser, then that app is given the opportunity to also provide a Metro version. Basically, it can provide a tile that appears in Metro home screen, can pin secondary tiles there (for bookmarks, web apps etc), and when launched, can detect if it's being launched from the tile or from an URL in another Metro app, and can decide whether to launch in desktop or Metro mode (e.g. IE10 has that as an option - always desktop / always Metro / same as invoker). This is called a "Metro style enabled Desktop Browser" - this document (.docx) covers the details.
Now, because this is still a desktop app, it is installed by usual means - an MSI or other kind of installer, or even just copy it over (so long as it can register itself to handle http:/// URLs on launch or something). So, it's not subject to Windows Store app approval policy. It's also much less limited with respect to what it can do, compared to a Metro-only app - the sandbox mainly restricts it from doing stuff that only makes sense on the desktop when it's in Metro mode, but otherwise it has same permissions as a desktop app. This means that they can JIT-compile code - kinda important for JS - and share bookmarks and history with desktop.
You know you can't publish anything for Metro without Microsoft's express consent, right? I
Hybrid desktop/Metro browsers are an exception to that rule - they can be installed from regular installers outside the store, and don't require approval. I've described that in more detail in my post above.
If your going to have a hissy fit why don't you develop an interface that does the the things you are bitching about?
Desktop version of Firefox is not going away.
As for your question, it's answered right there in TFA:
If a browser is awesome on Metro, the only way to use this awesome browser in Metro is for it to become the default. If a browser is default on Metro, it will also be default on the Desktop.
If a browser does not support Metro, it is seriously at risk of losing the default browser status, and therefore significant market share. A browser without support for Metro, if default, would be taking away a Metro browser completely from the user's computer.
Even if a user spends most of their time in the Desktop interface, having a really good Metro browser may be enough for the user to change their default browser. A browser with great Metro support can gain significant browser market share for this reason.
It is extremely important that we deliver an awesome Firefox experience on Metro, one that is tightly integrated with the platform, fast, and feature rich. Windows is by far the platform with the most users and which has the biggest effect on market share.
Will OEM's ship Windows with desktop as default or Metro as default?
It's not an option you can switch. When you boot into Win8, you end up in the Metro home screen, period.
I'm almost certain I don't want to use anything that has a "Share Charm".
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
You know what really irks me? Software. It's like these corporations are telling me that I don't have the BRAIN to program my own machine. People these days are so fucking lazy! Whenever they want something done on their PC, they just look for some software that SOMEONE ELSE wrote, whose done all the THINKING and LEARNING for them. The end result? We get these bloated, rigid messes known as "graphical user interfaces", extremely limited customisation, and huge lags in computer speeds. All because people's time is too "precious". Less precious than their own brain development apparently.
Goddamn right that using computing equipment is not a right. Only the people who earned their chops, like in the computing's very earliest of days, should be allowed to use them. They're the ones who know what they're doing. They'd be disgusted with 99.99% of the people who use computers these days.
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
the real problem being that there are two entirely separate use contexts in use at once whose only link is via what used to be the start menu. this asinine design is the root problem.
Hybrid desktop/Metro browsers
If an app goes both ways does that make it Metrosexual?
Ummm... You were wrong the first time, too.
You need to separate the tool from the task. Let's see.. Car analogy... Car analogy... OK. It's great that you know when you press on the accelerator it pulls a wire where the other end is connected to a carburetor which changes the fuel/air mixture (fuel that's from the gas tank that is typically located apart from the engine for safety because fuel is flammable) on it's way into the intake manifold and then the cylinder which blah blah blah... However, some folks just want to mash the thing on the floor and go faster. It doesn't make them "idiots". You are both in a car (tool) going somewhere to do something (task) and the fact that one of you is more likely to hit a tree is irrelevant.
Don't they also need to be 'approved' by Microsoft? ( or is this no longer the case?) I was actually half expecting them to do what Apple does and block other browsers. The precedent seems to have been set.
Microsoft has actually been behaving themselves recently. They offered assistance to the Mozilla folks to make sure Firefox would be supported on Windows Vista, they moved Windows Update into the control panel so you no longer need to browse to a web site in IE to update your OS, and Windows 7 gives you the option to remove Internet Explorer (although the rendering engine is still there, since lots of apps rely on it). Each version of IE since IE7 has been less awful, and when they wanted to add an RSS reader (which Firefox already had), they actually flew down to Mozilla headquarters to discuss using Firefox's RSS icon in IE because they figured it would cause less confusion for users if they cooperated. Microsoft refused to participate in WHATWG while HTML5 was being developed, but once W3C officially adopted HTML5, Microsoft got on board.
Does IE still suck? Hell yes, but it sucks a lot less than it used to, and Microsoft is playing by the rules now.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
which would be fine if it was a selectable option in the control panel or install time. tablet interfaces suck with a keyboard/mouse, whether it's a powerful cadstation or a student's school computer.
Furthermore, I have a question.
I doubt you will answer it seeing as you are a "paided" poster.
Why does Metro make you guys so defensive? Isn't it supposed to be superior to the Desktop? Isn't it the latest and greatest from Microsoft? Wouldn't you /rather/ have such a superior interface take over as the premier interface of all operating systems ever?
As a Windows booster, you must think that Metro is the cat's balls.
Well....
Isn't it?
--
BMO
WTF is a "paided" poster? At least get your grammar right.
Metro is good for things like browsers and casual consumer apps and is perfect for something like a portable tablet., but is unsuitable for many productivity apps like Photoshop, AutoCad, Office or Visual Studio, thus the Desktop lives on.
This space for rent.
Then be resigned to stupid UI decisions that make your less computer-savvy friends always ask you the same dumb questions to which you'll have to always ask "is this in metro or is this on the desktop" and they'll say "huh?" Microsoft has always made big claims about consistency of UI, and if they leave the desktop paradigm in with Metro, they'll be making their own biggest cardinal sin.
The desktop paradigm is dead. Microsoft smote the ground and declared it thus with Metro.
--
BMO
Okay whatever, you are entitled to your opinion, however lame or dumb it may be, but don't go spreading canards that the Desktop is going away for RTM.
This space for rent.
tha'ts just it, he's not just talking about gui design, but its larger implications. one person cannot possibly make inroads on a society-wide problem covering whole cross sections of different contexts..
A dead OS with 85% desktop market share??? Tablets and other mobile computing devices may make it far less dominant, maybe even eventually make it irrelevant, but we're a long way from irrelevance, and it's definitely not dead yet.
make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
WTF is a "paided" poster? At least get your grammar right.
I put it in quotes because it is internet slang for shill.
Metro is good for things like browsers and casual consumer apps and is perfect for something like a portable tablet., but is unsuitable for many productivity apps like Photoshop, AutoCad, Office or Visual Studio, thus the Desktop lives on.
Then why did Microsoft remove the ability to turn off Metro? You know, for people who sit at a desk and do work.
Explain. Give examples.
--
BMO
Fortunately I'm old enough so this is a realistic goal.
Metro = Revenge of Bob.
You heard it first on Slashdot.
Two GUIs enter!
One GUI leaves!
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
I am sorry, I'm neither a shill nor paid. There seem to be a lot of zealots on this site though....
>Then why did Microsoft remove the ability to turn off Metro? You know, for people who sit at a desk and do work.
You make it sound as if they removed the desktop apps. You can still use all the deskop apps and use the start screen instead of the start menu.
Anyway here's the long answer from Paul Thurrott:
. Microsoft could simply have made a Windows 8 that was to Windows 7 as Windows 7 was to Windows Vista; that is, an evolution. And Microsoft could have adapted Windows Phone to work on tablets, following the strategies of both Apple and Google. Certainly, many within Microsoft wanted the company to do just that.
In such a scenario, I personally see Windows on a slow, gradual decline. And I see the very real possibility--almost a certainty, really--that this Windows Phone tablet system follows in the footsteps of Zune and makes absolutely no dent at all. It is like Windows Phone: Technically excellent, highly usable, and utterly ignored. And when you combine that failure with the slow decline of Windows, you get a steep, steep decline for Windows in the overall market for general purpose computing. In other words, a disaster. A disaster that would make people pine for the comparatively stable days of Windows Vista.
Of course, Microsoft is not doing that. They are not going towards certain failure but are instead making a big bet--A. Big. Bet.--on something that is unknown and unproven and not necessarily destined for success. But in making this big bet, Microsoft is, I think, doing the right thing. Not in the details, necessarily, but in the broad strokes.
This space for rent.
"What a bunch of morons. Every decision now seems to be driven by a philosophy of "Let's make Firefox worse!!"
They are making it for what they want. They give not a partial fuck about what you or I want.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
It's in the works.
http://www.slashgear.com/google-confirms-metro-style-chrome-for-windows-8-13218100/
This space for rent.
Interesting. I wonder if they keep Flash support (hybrid Metro/desktop apps are not sandboxed, so it can likely be done with existing Flash code). If yes, they would have a killer feature right there.
The failure of Win8 is gonna make Bob, Millenium, and Vista look like nothing. Firefox is doing this because they have to, though. I'm not sure even the yahoos in charge of FF's interface over the past few releases wanted things dumbed down to such a level as Metro.
Because a normal desktop UI doesnt work so hot on a tablet, which in the future are bound to replace a big portion of the desktop market.
Replacing the desktop is like end times prophecy. We've been hearing drumbeats of marketeers with their death to * predictions since the dawn of civilization yet >1bn PCs are still here.
...frankly, misrepresenting what your employer has created.
I was trying to have a civil conversation with you and I am actually in agreement with some of your post (the very reason I pasted Paul's comment here).. but I find your accusations sickening. The only time I was in Seattle was to interview for Amazon for a Linux position and even attended a live Stallman talk, but dumbass anti-MS zealots like you can't even see past your fucking nose and instead hurl accusations of shilling. Fuck you and to hell with you and your types. Go back to Groklaw and Techrights. I am sick of this bullshit.
This space for rent.
Maybe not a "Dead OS". An OS with a gun pointed at its temple, a finger on the trigger, and a bullet in one of the 6 chambers.
Does it make you happy you're so strange?
Yes, bastion of intellect, coding applications for an unreleased version of the most popular consumer Operating System is the dumbest idea.
As an impartial observer, I think you're being a fucking idio bmo. You seem to believe that NO-ONE could like Metro, and that anyone who apparently does must be affiliated with Microsoft. As if people can't have differing opinions.
I've seen the same issue time and time again with Linux zealots. If you happen to explain why you like Windows 7, they'll call you a shill because NO-ONE could possibly like Windows at all, could they? They just cannot comprehend this idea, and I was lead to believe Linux users are smarter than regular folk, but some of them have their heads so far up their asses they don't like admitting some people have opinions that are different... without being malicious.
Oh Slashdot, no wonder you're the joke of the tech world.
Most people on Slashdot are fucking idiots.
Regular Metro apps can only be distributed via Windows Store
That is horrifying.
Required reading for internet skeptics
and still have less then 1/3 the hardware compatibility of linux or bsd.
>I have yet to see anyone who does not have a vested interest in Metro like it.
That implies there is no one without a vested interest in Metro who like it right? And this is for a OS that has a billion users.
>Having both GUIs on the same machine violates everything both Microsoft and Apple have said about consistency of UI.
Any references to them saying so? Even if so, why do they have to follow what they (allegedly) said?
>The only solution is to get rid of one or the other. /not/ backing down from Metro.
>That means that the Desktop needs to go. Microsoft is
Talk about leap of logic. This is a company that bends over for backwards compatibility. The desktop is going nowhere my friend, if you think that Microsoft will break millions of Win32 apps on Windows 8, you're frankly retarded. Whether Windows 8 will crash and burn due to the schizo UI is a different topic which I am willing to entertain, but they will not break compatibility that is their lifeblood, especially in enterprise. Period. And you arguing for it over and over again makes you sound stupid, to be frank.
>As if I care. There are actual jokes of the tech world, and they are...
Slashdot is indeed the joke of the tech world. Slashdot wrote stories like this about Windows 7(not to mention organized fud campaigns by Computerworld fake benchmarks):
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/02/16/2259257/draconian-drm-revealed-in-windows-7
Go on, read the comments there.
Choice comment from that discussion:
Re:A DRM ban clause should be added as a constitut (Score:4, Insightful)
by hairyfeet (841228) Alter Relationship on Tuesday February 17 2009, @12:54AM (#26882807) Journal
I been saying it and saying it that the DRM in Win7 hadn't been turned on and that is why they are getting good performance out of it now. Vista Beta 1 ran great for me too, but that was the pre DRM version. All of this DRM crap has to monitor you to keep "criminals" like the owner of the PC from doing as they like 24/7/365. All of that monitoring takes up CPU and RAM that could have been used for your stuff.
Mark my words, what we are seeing here is the tiniest tip of the turd iceberg that is Win7, AKA Vista the second edition. It will go down in flames as folks find out it is a big pile of stink just like Vista. That is why just yesterday I had a customer literally throw money at me saying "make this %^&^&$ POS Vista go away! I don't want to see this thing again until XP is on it!". So mark my words, Linux guys. Be getting your A games ready. Be doing everything you can to fix the little irritants like Winprinters because when Vista7 goes down in flames you are going to have a LOT of POed folks looking for a new direction. And Apple is just too damned expensive for John Q. Average. So this is your shot, make it count. I doubt seriously after Win7 goes down in flames that Ballmer will have a job and the next guy they bring in will probably be one of the MS Office guys and he will go back to dull and boring business OSes(Oh,Lord,please let it be so!) so you guys probably won't get a third at bat.
I for one would like some healthy competition to make the marketplace more fair so don't miss your shot,make it count. Because a moron as stupid as Ballmer only comes around once in a lifetime and you don't want to miss it.
And the tech world noticed that Slashdot turned into a joke --> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/02/oh-the-humanity-windows-7s-draconian-drm.ars
>Windows 7 actually doesn't suck. It's what Vista should have been. Its throughput for nontrivial amounts of files /does/ suck, but as a run-of-the-mill OS, it's not 'orrible, guvnuh.
Ah lovely, now you love Window
Isn't the desktop/metro duality more akin to running both KDE and Gnome desktops at the same time? I don't think that's a very common usage.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Well they won't on the ARM edition...
Exactly. And Microsoft is throwing Firefox and Chrome a bone by making special exceptions for browsers on ARM tablets.
Ask Mozilla how that iPad port is turning out....
This space for rent.
The people who are actually interested in improving Metro do not need to be forced into using it.
The average schmuck, as you put it (I agree with the characterization) that wants to use 8 to show off as a "power user" really isn't anyone Microsoft should be concerned with anyway, and is going to find a way to turn off Metro, regardless. There is already a hack out there that does this (apparently it's a file ripped from Windows 7 or something).
--
BMO
I also note with amusement that all the "troll" mods I'm getting. This is an abuse of moderation because "troll" is not "I disagree." But whatever. I have more karma points than you idiots have negative mod points.
Just how much ZaRex do you have to drink (it wasn't Kool Aid they drank in Jonestown) to believe that dueling GUIs on the same computer is not a colossally stupid idea?
--
BMO
You mean like Win 95 which ran on top of DOS and how you could land in DOS fullscreen to run DOS apps? That was two dueling UIs right there.
Last things first
The site has lost readership thanks to haters like you who attack anyone who dares to express an alternate viewpoint.
No, this site has lost its readership because it is stuff that doesn't matter that happened last week. This can be tied directly to the "vote for a story" model that was implemented. Things appear everywhere else and then show up on Slashdot last.
Talk about leap of logic. This is a company that bends over for backwards compatibility.
Where were you the last time the driver model changed and printers, scanners, and soundcards (lol, Creative X-Fi) wound up in landfills across the fruited plain? Where were you when Microsoft finally said to the game publishers "Fuck you, you're not writing to hardware anymore"? Microsoft, has, and does, break compatibility when they feel the need to. Paul's article puts an emphasis on this with Metro. The thing is that you have to actually read Paul Thurrott's article and understand just exactly what he's trying to say. He's saying that Metro is a "bet the company" move and there's no going back.
Lastly, I have never said that 7 sucks. You can go through my entire posting history if you wish. It's not just "now."
Indeed, here is me saying nice things about Windows 7.
http://investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=1911&mn=109089&pt=msg&mid=9645884
Now get stuffed.
--
BMO
I said
>dueling GUIs
You misquote me as "Dueling UIs"
Your reading comprehension sucks.
Furthermore:
>You mean like Win 95 which ran on top of DOS
No, no it didn't. And you're an idiot for thinking so. That distinction belongs to Windows 3.1 and previous versions.
--
BMO
>Microsoft, has, and does, break compatibility when they feel the need to. Paul's article puts an emphasis on this with Metro. The thing is that you have to actually read Paul Thurrott's article and understand just exactly what he's trying to say. He's saying that Metro is a "bet the company" move and there's no going back.
So your argument is that Microsoft will break compatibility to such an extent that their own Visual Studio won't run on the next version of Windows? What are you smoking? And Paul in no way implies anywhere that the desktop is going away. He is just saying that it's a bad move for MS to allow users to turn off Metro which is a very different from removing the Desktop paradigm.
No, I'm not implying anything of the sort. You're honestly not that important. I'm saying outright that Slashdot is a joke in the tech world purely because of commenters like you. This place seems to draw in the crazies.
What the fuck are you talking about? Seriously. You're not important enough to have a stalker.
Most people on Slashdot are fucking idiots.
So dueling GUIs is worse than a dueling GUI and commandline UI? It's funny to see you twist into wild contortions.
The command line and GUI have never surprised anyone. Because the command line has been more-or-less consistent over the decades.
But as far as Metro goes, it's a radical departure from "normal" GUIs which have remained more-or-less similar with a desktop metaphor for the last .... fuck, when was the Xerox Star?
And Microsoft is going to foist this upon an unsuspecting public with the RTM.
>me twisting into contortions
No, calling you out on strawmanning and deliberate misreading is not me twisting. It's you being an asshole
Meet the bit bucket, asshole.
--
BMO
WTF are you blathering about? You made the claim in the GGGGGGGGGGGGP post that MS will dump the desktop paradigm in Win 8 RTM for only Metro.
Since Visual Studio is not a Metro app, it "won't run" on WIndows 8(along with Office, Photoshop, iTunes and all the millions of Win32 apps out there) if what you said is true..
Please read your own posts and be consistent or I'll have to assume you're mentally ill and move on.
You can disable the Metro interface through a registry setting. Upon release it might be even easier. It will certainly be a GPO that can be set.
Or you could just try it out. You might actually like it.
-David
>But as far as Metro goes, it's a radical departure from "normal" GUIs which have remained more-or-less similar with a desktop metaphor for the last .... fuck, when was the Xerox Star?
So the iPad and Android tablets have a desktop metaphor or don't? If you think they do, Metro isn't that different.
>And Microsoft is going to foist this upon an unsuspecting public with the RTM.
I thought your original argument was that MS was going Metro-only with the RTM and won't have dueling GUIs.
Microsoft has actually been behaving themselves recently.
I would suggest not being quick to accept that. Microsoft has always been quick with the "embrace" in "embrace, extend, extinguish". Lest we forget.
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
You know you can't publish anything for Metro without Microsoft's express consent, right?
Great, I'm totally comfortable with that because I do not intend to ask Microsoft for anything, ever.
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Windows the family has 85% marketshare. "Windows 8" has 0%.
And remember the pattern:
Windows 98 SE
Windows Me
Windows XP
Windows Vista
Windows 7
Windows 8
Metro is a Windows 8 exclusive.
This has been known for close to a year now.
Anyway, after Apple is swimming in cash in their walled garden, what did you expect? Everyone wants a piece of that pie now that they've shown you can make it.
Microsoft are only supporting WinRT (the new API to write Metro applications) applications, not Win32 applications (aside from Microsoft Office, IE and Windows Explorer) on Windows ARM. Those are the only times you get to see the desktop on ARM devices and it is only there because they cannot port Office in time.
Any Metro applications that are published (going through the Microsoft store, which is the only way to distribute Metro applications) have to use WinRT (including the WinRT subset of the Win32 API) -- if you use any of the verboten Win32 APIs you cannot get your application on the Metro store.
How many articles refer to the desktop as "legacy" (google "windows 8 legacy desktop").
Does the Metro Desktop interaction feel integrated, smooth, consistent and supported to you, or does it feel like Microsoft said "we need to support 'legacy' applications, so we'll tack the desktop on to Metro as another Metro application and not bother about seamlessly integrating the two".
Microsoft are not supporting desktop -- they have shoved it into a Metro-style application that runs the Desktop in isolation to everything else, just like you can run your DOS/command line in a nice little Desktop window. Yes, they will tweak it here and there to keep businesses happy, but all the new stuff will be done in the Metro world.
But on the linux world, you don't have a "press the activities button on Gnome Shell to take you to the KDE desktop, or press the KDE menu to take you to the Unity shell" like you do in Windows 8, with your KDE asnd GNOME applications managed by different task managers.
KDE/Qt applications and GNOME/Gtk+ applications running side-by-side is equivalent to Metro applications running windowed on the Desktop shell, and Desktop applications running full screen Metroized on the Metro shell.
This has been known for close to a year now.
Okay.
after Apple is swimming in cash in their walled garden, what did you expect?
I expect bad behavior from Apple. I had hoped that, like other platforms, Microsoft would allow alternative app stores. They've been so well behaved lately, after all.
Required reading for internet skeptics
Except nothing is preventing you from installing software from anywhere on the net on your Mac that's running OS X (we're not talking iOS here, we're talking OS X vs Windows since this affects desktop computers as well).
What's funny is that I've barely heard a word about this Win8 app store lock-in, especially not from the foaming-at-the-mouth MS fanboys who love to scream about how OS X is a walled garden (because they can't be bothered to understand that iOS and OS X aren't the exact same operating system).
Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
Vista, perhaps the most universally hated version of windows in the last decade still has a higher market share to this day than ANY non windows based desktop OS. So even if win 8 ends up being a universal flop it is still likely to trounce any version of Mac/linux in actual market share. So unless you think it would also be a bright idea to not write desktop apps for the Mac or for linux then I would suggest you are the one not making much sense.
In order to provide an alternative to IE on Windows 8, Firefox needs a Metro UI.
Says who? Based on what evidence?
I'm getting more and more unhappy with the FF development process. These guys need to get off the "innovation for innovation's sake" boat and check in with their userbase again. How about you put your time into solving that stuttering youtube-videos issue that's been plaguing the browser since around 2009?
But, of course, a new UI is more "visible". The FF dev team has encountered the bikeshed problem and is completely unprepared to handle it. They're doing stuff like an HTML5 MMO demo. Which, while being an interesting project, doesn't address any of the core issues.
I've been using FF since long before it was called that (anyone remember the year it had three name changes?). But recently, I'm thinking very seriously about moving to either Chrome or Safari. Mostly because between the rapid releases for no good reason and all the bullshit nonsense they pour their time into, and all the pointless UI changes just because, I don't see the project going anywhere. Does it even have a vision anymore?
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
This is NOT true in the consumer preview. You could disable Metro in the developer preview via a registry setting, but it is NOT possible to disable metro in the consumer preview via a registry setting. The only way to disable it in Consumer preview is with a 3rd party application hack.
How does Apple block other browsers? Yes, for iOS they do but on OS X (Win8 is, after all, also their new desktop OS) they sure as hell don't.
Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
amen.
and considering that the majority of apps will be desktop-only for quite some time (IMHO), then the metro UI is pretty much just a full-screen start menu.
And not a very good one at that.
I imagine MS will be deprecating the desktop interface as soon as they can. (sorry, that should read: I think they've deprecated it already, they just haven't told us yet. They'll be removing it as soon as they can).
That was in the DP, not in the CP - they actually removed the Registry key, and multiple times have stated that there will be no official way to get rid of metro.
Sticking to desktop-only UI would be suicide for Microsoft. Metro works quite fine if you only look at it from a tablet point of view.
there, FTFY.
Wait, so you also can't start into another shell?
I imagine MS will be deprecating the desktop interface as soon as they can. (sorry, that should read: I think they've deprecated it already, they just haven't told us yet. They'll be removing it as soon as they can).
As soon as they can =
As soon as all the major Microsoft Products got ported to it, before any concurrent even had the idea of porting but counted instead on the mixed metro-desktop.
(But they'll need probably to help a few of the 3rd party ddevelopper to port things which are "big on windows" but for which microsoft doesn't have a real good in-house alternative).
It really sounds like they try to pull again a "OS2 vs. WinNT". Except that this kind of trick only work once, and a few of the 3rd parties (specially open sources project which can more easily experiment with interfaces) got the idea of trying to be prepared just in case of.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Which is why it can be toggled with one button. It also works fine if all you're doing is browsing the web, looking up a calendar or checking your email, which is what 90% of people do anyway. I'm a software developer (as many here are too I guess). 90% of the time i'm looking at a computer when I'm not coding still would work perfectly fine on a tablet-style UI. A big chunk of the rest of the time is a game...which only needs to get launched.
Well, you can.. there is some web magic around already that lets you add a "run at logon" script that opens the Desktop "App" bypassing the metro launch screen and also the swipe to unlock screen.. and if you install start8 from stardock you don't have to bother using metro for the basic tasks.. but as soon as you change stuff (that includes joining a wlan, that is metro now too..the volume slider isn't though) and have to use the control panel, you're back to metro.
Does it Squirt?
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
It's funny that every time Apple does something kinda bad, MS comes along and REALLY does what everyone is worried about. Apple starts an App store and people start worrying that someday ONLY apps from the app store will be allowed, then MS comes along and says "App store apps only!" Everyone worries that the iPad is too popular and Apple will quit making a desktop OS, then MS comes along and says "You're going to use this tablet UI whether you want to or not!"
Granted, using the old style desktop gets you around both of these to some extent, but then, what's the point of having it?
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
This is good to know. If Firefox is making a version for Metro, they probably have something similar ( or Canonical does ) for Unity.
I'm still on Ubuntu 10.10. When Ubuntu 12.04 LTS comes out I'm going to upgrade. If Unity works for me it will be good to have Firefox blend in.
If not, I will go KDE, go MINT or go Mac.
Wouldn't it be possible to create a "Metro app" that works as a launcher for some other software? that way you can place the icon in the dashboard and set it up to launch whatever normal application you want.
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
Windows 8 promises to be an awful experience.
I hate Fennec, and I can't imagine the Metro IE being any better.
It's like being given the choose between loose stool with oily discharge and ordinary diarrhea.
"Enterprise" app story is pretty much completely irrelevant here because it's not something mere mortals will have access to.
The only successful mobile platform that allows app sideloading today is Android, and they're getting a lot of talk for problems associated with this model (malware etc). For better or worse, Apple has trained users that they do not have to think about safety and security when installing random apps on their devices.
Except nothing is preventing you from installing software from anywhere on the net on your Mac that's running OS X (we're not talking iOS here, we're talking OS X vs Windows since this affects desktop computers as well).
Well, Win8 Metro is roughly as if you'd suddenly were able to run iOS software on OS X; if that is to ever happen, do you think you'll be able to install it from outside the store? As far as the classic desktop app story goes, it's still free for all, thankfully.
Every decision now seems to be driven by a philosophy of "Let's make Firefox worse!!"
As long as they have a traditional desktop interface, why would integration into W8 be detrimental? If their interface is metro-only then I would agree it's a problem. But I think a worse problem is "making it look like IE". I don't like IE. If I wanted a browser that looked and acted like IE I'd use IE. Well, on the notebook anyway, IE won't run in Linux.
Whoever modded the parent should comment, because there's no way in hell the comment was a troll. Just because you disagree with a comment, even a strongly worded one, doesn't make it a troll. It's his opinion and he's entitled to it. If you disagree with him, then comment. Lots of other stories to waste your mod points on.
Free Martian Whores!
And you thing their success is due to extremely limiting user choice? Do you think this approach is good for computing as a whole?
What about people or companies who write their own software? Is this approach good for them or is it unnecessarily limiting?
Is there a danger that this restricted freedom will harm the industry in the long run as developers are forced to play by the increasingly strict rules of a few major vendors?
When did vendor lock-in become a good thing?
Required reading for internet skeptics
And you thing their success is due to extremely limiting user choice?
It certainly plays a part in that, yes. Most users don't appreciate freedom of choice, and will gladly trade it for security, real or perceived.
Do you think this approach is good for computing as a whole?
As a geek, no, I don't, because it limits my freedom, which I actually use. On the other hand, I do appreciate it that I can buy an iPad for my mom, and she can't screw it up by installing random crap on it.
Is there a danger that this restricted freedom will harm the industry in the long run as developers are forced to play by the increasingly strict rules of a few major vendors?
Nothing long term about it, it's already happening.
When did vendor lock-in become a good thing?
It didn't become a good thing, it just became a reality to deal with.
Windows 8 has 0% because it hasn't shipped yet. Pretty tough to have market share when the product isn't available yet. It's also pretty tough to call it "dead" when it's still under development.
make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
Well, at least we're in near-perfect agreement.
It still terrifies me, however.
Required reading for internet skeptics
If you are going to passionately insult and degrade other peoples efforts you should at least have a tentative solution in mind. Also Linus Torvalds is one man who I beleive made some significant inroads in challenging the more established OS's being offered by others. Of course he did not do everything but his efforts got the ball rolling. One person is all it takes to imagine alternate solutions to address similar problems. Once the idea is communicated to others it will increase the number of people willing to contribute to building and implementing the solution. The number of people getting involved is direct;y related to the idea proffered by one person. Software "design" by committee usually results in failure. However, software "development" by groups can work when implementing the solution based on the new idea.