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The Supreme Court To Rule On Monsanto Seed Patents

Fluffeh writes "Can a farmer commit patent infringement just by planting soybeans he bought on the open market? This week, the Supreme Court asked the Obama administration to weigh in on the question. The Court is pondering an appeals court decision saying that such planting can, in fact, infringe patents. Last year, the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit ruled, as it had on several previous occasions, that patent exhaustion did not cover second-generation seeds. The Supreme Court has now asked the Solicitor General, the official in charge of representing the Obama administration before the Court, to weigh in on the case."

24 of 372 comments (clear)

  1. Culmination of a dream by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Monsanto is about to realize a dream: The absolute ownership of the food supply.

    --
    http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    1. Re:Culmination of a dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Monsanto is the devil, and farmers sold their souls to it for temporary edge over competition. Now, they get no more money than in the past. I would even argue, they get less money as more food floods the market.

      The devil is laughing his ass off.

    2. Re:Culmination of a dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You forget the USA government = corporations government. After all they can't bite the hand that feeds them: Occasionally groan for appearances to get some votes. Same for the supreme corp^h^h^h court.

    3. Re:Culmination of a dream by TheInternetGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Since beginning of time, if I bought( or got a hold of) a seed, planted and nursed it it would produce more seeds which can in their turn be planted and nursed. This is the definition of a seed.

      If Monsanto has issues with this, then they need to genetically modify the seed (or plant that it gives birth to) so that it will only produce one generation.

      If Monsanto wants to challenge the whole reason we became agricultural societies instead of hunter gatherers then I guess that is just in their business DNA.

        But if you the people allow them to get away with it, then you the people are morons.

      --
      If my comment didn't sound as good in your head as it did in mine, then I guess we all know who's to blame
    4. Re:Culmination of a dream by ffoiii · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is not that "the people" allow them to get away with it, but that nine particularly selected individuals will make this decision based on a long history of weighing some rights over other rights, with a recent disposition (over the last hundred years or so), of devaluing individual rights over the rights of corporations. And the 535 other individuals that could overrule this decision will not and do not because their jobs depend on the people who benefit from these decisions.

    5. Re:Culmination of a dream by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Informative

      If Monsanto has issues with this, then they need to genetically modify the seed (or plant that it gives birth to) so that it will only produce one generation.

      Monsanto bought a company that was developing "terminator seeds" and the backlash was so widespread and fierce that they've barely talked about it since.
      Partly because a UN Convention on Biological Diversity created a defacto global moratorium on use of the seeds.
      Canada's Government tried to challenge the moratorium, but the backlash from the Canadian people was so widespread and fierce...
      You get the idea.

      Terminator seeds are a shitty idea.
      They're DRM for seeds. Except the DRM can infect other plants.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    6. Re:Culmination of a dream by anagama · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ok -- analogy critique

      You're suggesting Monsanto built a self-replicating machine, which is totally false. If it was true, Monsanto could take a few train cars of pure carbon, some cylinders of pure hydrogen and oxygen, and a few other trace elements -- and produce seeds. When Monsanto can use air and charcoal to make seeds, maybe then we should talk about patents.

      At present however, it is indisputable that Monsanto did NOT build a self-replicating machine. Monsanto took a pre-existing semi-self-replicating machine (semi in the sense that it replicates with the help of other like machines, mixing their designs in the process), a machine that it absolutely can NOT produce from the ground up -- a machine that everyone already had for free or next to free. It made a tweak to that machine, and then released it into the wild with all the others. When the originals and the tweaked version intermingle as would naturally occur, Monsanto claims ownership over the whole shebang.

      Which is bullshit. Maybe its fair for Monsanto to have its own patent covered version of the seed (emphasize "maybe" here), but the fact that its modifications find their way into other plants is not a basis for Monsanto gaining ownership of the other plants, its a basis for the people who want the originals to sue for nuisance. But in our bassackwards world, Monsanto's nuisance liability becomes its cash cow.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    7. Re:Culmination of a dream by TheInternetGuy · · Score: 5, Funny

      I am not entirely certain if we are arguing against or past each other, but I will respond.

      No, I clicked "Reply to this" of your post. But due to my sometimes incredibly short attention span I wrote a post that wasn't really a reply at all.

      Is that a bird outside my window?

      [Session lost]

      --
      If my comment didn't sound as good in your head as it did in mine, then I guess we all know who's to blame
    8. Re:Culmination of a dream by intok · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, that is true, but we can't use that term as due to the US education system being so bad the general public doesn't associate it with Mussolini but instead think that you mean Hitler and the Nazis and the holocaust. Thus they gloss over and ignore you as a nutcase.

    9. Re:Culmination of a dream by RazorSharp · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm sure there's some governing body for Native Americans - they should patent corn and sue Monsanto for all they're worth. It took them thousands of years to "invent" corn and Monsanto replicates and resells this invention without paying any compensation to the inventors.

      In all seriousness, corn is probably the most impressively modified plant next to bananas. In its original form it was pretty much just a grain (corn, in fact, is a generic term for grain that's been part of the English language before any English speaker laid eyes on maize).

      If any invention is going on here, it's the process by which the seeds are made. A process that's not too disimilar from the way the Native Americans made corn or how Mendal manipulated peas and flowers and whatnot. But what Monsanto is doing is closer to what Mendel did than the Natives. At least with maize its almost wholly different from the original plant. It's like the difference between a great dane and a chihuahua. I live in a rural area and I'm surrounded by things grown from Monsanto seeds. I recognize them as plants that have existed far before Monsanto. They would have to at least start producing something that struck me as a 'new' plant for me to even consider the possibility that it could be patentable, but then I'd still be wary since, as you said, no one builds seeds from scratch.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    10. Re:Culmination of a dream by smpoole7 · · Score: 5, Informative

      > And the 535 other individuals that could overrule this decision will not

      Mod this one insightful. That's the best line that I've seen on this page so far.

      Folks, whether you're conservative or progressive, the bottom line is that that Congress is the real problem. Whether Dem or Repub, it's not even that they're in someone's pocket (which they are) so much as it is that they're ignorant and lazy. Just plain lazy.

      Don't agree with Supreme Court decisions? There's a mechanism in the US Constitution to address that. (1) the Senate can impeach the justices and (2) if worse comes to worst, a constitutional amendment can fix a bad supreme court decision. Neither is likely to happen because Congress would rather sip champagne and have face time on CSpan (I LOVE that ... making speeches to an empty chamber, but you don't see that because Congress won't permit the cameras to show the vacant seats!).

      Think about all of the concern about Congress almost passing Yet Still Another Bad Copyright or IP Law(tm). You can ask these Congresscritters if they understand the Internet and they'll BOAST about the fact that they don't. When it comes to seeds, most of them have never done actual, hands on work and can't even maintain a plant bed in front of their house, much less run a working farm.

      And it's our fault. We keep electing the same entrenched morons, over and over, simply because they're of our party. The PRIMARIES are where we ought to be focusing, but because the incumbent has so much money and so many other advantages, he/she can swamp the opponent with negative ads ... and he/she gets re-elected.

      Turn the TV off. Quit watching and listening to the ads. You'll probably find that you can actually talk to the candidate (especially for a house race, which is more local). But if YOU continue to elect the same worthless meatsacks every 2, 4 and 6 years (or even worse, don't even bother to vote), then you have only yourself to blame.

      Hate to be harsh this early in the morning, but all this talk about encroaching fascism and other stuff is nonsense. Oh, it could happen ... but it'll only do so because every one of us continue to live in the box and won't make the effort to think (and work) outside of it.

      --
      Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
    11. Re:Culmination of a dream by lexsird · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Monsanto is the acme of the corporate problem in this equation. We really have been fools about all of this. We've allowed corporations into our food production to the point that it threatens the "mom and pop" farmers that make this country great. Why don't we want corporations involved? Aside from the usual great arguments, there is one we must consider. Corporations can be bought and controlled by interests that run contrary to the good of us all.

      If we keep the "power" in the hands of small farmer, we make it nigh impossible for any entity to control it. This isn't just Leftist hippie drivel, it preserves our food supply from falling into a "lack of genetic diversity" to keep it safe. If you end up with just ONE strain of something, you have put the system at risk.

      The individual independent farmers of America are one of our greatest assets. Through them, we have a stable food system that can feed the world in an affordable way.

      But don't expect our government to do what is wise by it's own nation or people. We have elected a ship of fools it would seem. But this is only because we have a population that revels in it's own ignorance. These same people then pass this value on in their electorate. News for Nerds you say? Look at this, name calling from the neolithic cavemen who are too lazy to educate themselves. Nerds indeed!

      I believe we are in this situation due to our own stupidity. Corruption is the acme of stupidity and it's tenacity. Corrupted we are indeed. We have lost the ability to think as a nation, and it's now just a matter of the factions splitting up the spoils of the ruins. It's easy to predict how this SCOTUS will rule. I believe they have neither the intelligence, the wisdom, or the integrity to rule for the nation on this. I believe they are corrupted and will side with the hand that feeds them.

      Judge a tree by it's fruits. What insane rulings have we seen out of this court so far? "Corporations are people too" hallmarked the rise of Corporation-ism / Fascism in this country. There is a political/power jigsaw puzzle coming together that has been decades in the shuffling around into place. It takes objectivity of a highly removed magnitude and a scope of vision that pans the global history to see it.

      To put it in gaming terms, the perspective of the pawn will not see it. You have to look at it from the perspective of the player. Looking at this as just another piece on the board, how fares the game for us?

      --
      Take the Red Pill.
    12. Re:Culmination of a dream by MisterMidi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agreed to everything you said until you mentioned fascism. I thought, things are bad in the US, but surely they can't be that bad, the US are nothing like Nazi Germany, right? So I googled for a fascism checklist and found this: The 14 defining characteristics of fascism:

      • Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - check
      • Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - check
      • Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - check
      • Supremacy of the Military - check
      • Rampant Sexism - check
      • Controlled Mass Media - check
      • Obsession with National Security - check
      • Religion and Government are Intertwined - check
      • Corporate Power is Protected - check
      • Labor Power is Suppressed - check
      • Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - check
      • Obsession with Crime and Punishment - check
      • Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - check
      • Fraudulent Elections - check

      This is scary.

    13. Re:Culmination of a dream by ChipMonk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would challenge "supremacy of the military" on the grounds that our Commander in Chief is, and always has been, a civilian. A veteran, perhaps, but never an active-duty soldier. And the second-in-command since 1949, the Secretary of Defense, is also a civilian.

      As for "controlled mass media," well, you're posting on Slashdot, aren't you? And isn't the article two back titled "Millions of Subscribers Leaving Cable TV for Streaming Services"?

    14. Re:Culmination of a dream by MisterMidi · · Score: 5, Informative
      From the checklist I linked to:

      Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

      The US are top spenders on military(#1 (43%) world share, #2 by GDP)

      As for "controlled mass media," well, you're posting on Slashdot, aren't you? And isn't the article two back titled "Millions of Subscribers Leaving Cable TV for Streaming Services"?

      Again from the checklist:

      Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

      Why do you think they're pushing PIPA and SOPA?

    15. Re:Culmination of a dream by AngryDeuce · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I find it very odd that even here on /. that you get modded down for criticizing Obama's evolving dictatorial powers

      Well, I don't ever get mod points, but I can tell you why I've begun to just tune those people out now: Because, more often than not, they follow up all that with defense or justification of the stupid Tea Party war on abortion, birth control, or sex-ed, how they shouldn't have to pay for the poor to get medical treatment, or how public schools are full of "liberal indoctrination", or college kids are all "entitled" and all sorts of other ultra-conservative nonsense.

      Obama pisses me off in a lot of ways, and I'd be happy to discuss his shortcomings, but I refuse to do so if it's just to steer the conversation towards how the other side is better in some twisted way, and most of the time, that is exactly what happens. If someone wants to talk to me about how government is completely fucked up, from top to bottom, left and right? Fine, let's dish. If they want to try and spin it like Obama is some evil genius trying to "turn 'murika soshulist" and they automatically get ignored.

      This isn't a Republican/Democrat problem. This is a problem with the whole fucking thing, across all three branches of government. The cult of Obama you complain about has just as large a cult on the other side, the cult of "everything wrong is Obama's fault"...and both cults are retarded.

  2. How about ruling Monsanto is contaminating by JoeCommodore · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I see it more that the farmer should sue Monsanto for contaminating the seeds he buys - he expects to get regualr bean seeds instead through no fault of his own, the seeds have been contaminated with genetically modified components.

    Ruling that any farmer got it (contaminated agriculture) through natural processes as "infringing" is ludicrous.

    --
    "Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
    1. Re:How about ruling Monsanto is contaminating by niftydude · · Score: 5, Informative

      This is happening in Australia right now. A farmer lost his organic certification due to cross-contamination of his crop from a neighbour that was using GM seeds, and so is suing the neighbour.

      http://www.abc.net.au/rural/telegraph/content/2012/s3470966.htm

      --
      You can never know everything, and part of what you do know will always be wrong. Perhaps even the most important part.
  3. Ugh by Formalin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not going to hope for much here, seeing as Monsanto already owns the government.

    I'm looking forward to a day when living things cannot be patented - especially things which can self-proliferate in a natural setting. I might need to go to another planet to achieve this, unfortunately.

  4. Re:Could this be a good thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Doesn't that render it close enough to a monopoly for the government to be able to step in and regulate it?

    Government is already regulating it by allowing companies to patent seeds. That's exactly the problem.

  5. Re:Tough Call by tick-tock-atona · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you funded the invention of a new crop version and wanted to recoup your hundreds of millions of development costs, you would not want the court to eliminate patent rights for 2nd generation crops.

    This attitude is a problem. Why should anyone be forced to prop up a poorly thought out business model? Farmers have been manipulating genes for thousands of years.. is there a patent on corn or bananas or any number of domesticated crops? No, because the reward to the farmers was a more productive crop.

    Maybe monsanto needs to change the way they do business rather than try to force everyone else to do so.

  6. Five more years and it's all over by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Monsanto is so vigorous about defending its Roundup Ready seed patents because they are in a panic about what's happening in plant biology. Here's why.

    Once you reach a point that farm weeds are starting to show resistance to Roundup, the game's up for Roundup. Most crops are grown in areas where 95% of the land is under cultivation. So you have virtually all Monsanto's seed sown in large areas that are pretty uniform breeding grounds for weeds. For years, Roundup Ready was a big advantage, because there were just a few kinds of weeds that could survive Roundup spraying. But now we've reached a point where 94% of the farmland is under cultivation with Roundup Ready and it's getting sprayed every year at the weeds' peak vulnerability times with Roundup, putting massive selection pressure on the weeds.

    Once you reach a level where 1% of the weeds are resistant, and 94% of them get sprayed with something like 90% mortality, you get a next generation of weed seeds that's about 5% resistant. They year after that it's about 20% resistant. At this point farmers still see some value in Roundup. It still gives them an 80% reduction in weeds. But next year it's about 57% resistant. Now the farmer is frustrated. He sprays and sprays again and curses Monsanto. His crops are OK, but he's not doing as well as the guy down the road who doesn't spray at all but uses other methods for weed reduction.

    But Roundup has been his method for 15 years and he's reluctant to try something new.

    The next year, 87% of the weeds are resistant to Roundup. He sprays and only a handful of weeds die. He knows he sprayed at the right time. His neighbors are all bemoaning the same problem. "It ain't the Roundup. It's the weeds," one buddy says. "I got some on my grass and it was dead as fuckall the next morning. The weeds have adapted."

    Roundup sales plummet mid-year. The company rep calls the feed store. "Farmers ain't buying it no more.," the manager tells him. "They say it don't work no more." It makes headlines across the country.

    The next year, Roundup sales are zero, and there's no market for Roundup Ready seeds. Farmers are looking for other seeds that give the best yield on their soil type and moisture level.

    The only way Monsanto keeps a money stream on the Roundup product is selling it to city dwellers to kill dandelions and crabgrass. But by now it's adapting in the city as well.

    So they either introduce a new plant killer and have a giant campaign to get farmers on board -- farmers who feel screwed by paying for two years of overpriced seeds and worthless chemicals -- or they get out of the seed business.

    Unless they can enforce a patent right on every seed that has their gene in it no matter how many generations removed from their production. Because you can no longer find a pure source of seed uncontaminated by their gene. Too many farmers have grown it and it has cross-pollinated into everybody's crop.

    And it all sounds richly deserved, but then you realize that the same thing is happening with bacteria that attack our bodies. Only slower, because the breeding ground for those germs isn't under as heavy a pressure.

  7. Read the whole site by DrYak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I would challenge "supremacy of the military" on the grounds that our Commander in Chief is, and always has been, a civilian. A veteran, perhaps, but never an active-duty soldier. And the second-in-command since 1949, the Secretary of Defense, is also a civilian

    The actual criteria, as explained on the web page, isn't how high active military are in the political chain, but rather how much a country spends on military and how often it uses its army as a solution to the problems.

    Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

    And as seen from outside (from the other side of the atlantic pond), the USA seem to fund disproportionately a lot their armed forces, and seem to think that fighting wars (Irak, Afghanistan) is the best solution. Active soldiers are seen as doing something patriotic. These wars have cost unbelievible amounts of money, yet the country still hesitate to spend money on public health (the whole debate about medicare/medicaid).

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  8. explanation of terms by canajin56 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The summary uses the term "patent exhaustion", which some people might not be familiar with. This is the doctrine of first sale for patents. Patents don't just cover the manufacture, sale, or distribution of protected devices/etc, they also cover the use, private, commercial, or any other kind of use. The law as written would therefore mean that you can patent your device, sell it, and then sue your customers for using it. So the courts have decided that OBVIOUSLY they can't do that, so the first time you sell a device, your patent interests are "exhausted" and can no longer be used to prevent the use of that particular device.

    This is a complicated court case because patent exhaustion is not written down anywhere, it's a wibbly wobbly thing. But as usually stated, it covers the one device. You cannot buy one patent device, and then make your own copies and sell them, because only the one device is "exhausted", and the patent is not nullified. On the other hand, patent law says that if you buy a patented device that can make things, then patent exhaustion also allows you to sell the things made by that device, if they are not covered by patents. That is to say, although things made by a patented process are protected by patent law, if you can legally use such a process (whether by license or patent exhaustion) the patent rights no longer extend to the product. So the court here must decide if that includes self-replication.

    On the one hand, the idea behind the Doctrine of Exhaustion is that its pretty obscene to sell somebody something and put the burden on THEM to research all of the currently valid patents to make sure they're allowed to use the damn thing. So that should imply that Exhaustion applies to all intended uses of the patented product. So if a seed is intended to be grown, patent exhaustion would apply to all uses of the final plant. Since for thousands of years farmers have replanted crops using seeds from the last generation, that should be an inalienable intended use of a plant. On the other hand, if you have a Star Trek Replicator which you have rightly patented, its intended use is to make things. So if it can make patented parts of itself, that is part of its intended use? (Other posters here have suggested such a thing). I'm not sure of that. I think for that to apply its intended use would have to be self-replication specifically. That is to say, its purpose is not to make itself specifically, but to make whatever pattern you give it. So patent exhaustion on the replicator would not extend to pattern files you feed it. Besides which, the Doctrine of Exhaustion only applies to unencumbered sales, not to licensed sales or leases or anything else. So if it was truly a concern, they could make you sign a license when you buy the replicator, which explicitly enumerates how you may use the patented device.

    --
    ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI