Raspberry Pi Arrives, With a School Debut In Leeds

hypnosec writes "It seems fitting that the first batch of Raspberry Pi computers landed in the UK in the hands of school children based in Leeds as what many consider as another wave of grass-root computing revolution, another BBC Micro 2.0, begins. The Raspberry Pi has been designed from scratch to get anyone interested in computer programming to do so without forking out much; the base unit can connect to a television like the Commodore C64 or the Sinclair ZX81. According to the BBC, the first batch has been presented [Friday] by Eben Upton, the school project coordinator, in an event held at the Leeds offices of Premier Farnell, one of the official PI distributors."

Comments

First Comment!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yay!

At the price.

[zippo01]

This is also a great way/price for people to get into building and operating clusters. I plan on dropped 200 and building a 8 system cluster, just for fun.

Re:At the price.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ordering now means you'll probably get yours at the end of summer. You'll have to wait longer still if you want several, because right now orders are limited to one per person. If you just want to get experience working with clusters, create a couple of VMs and a virtual network. If you want to cluster Pis to get more performance, get a real computer: cheaper and faster (and available).

Re:At the price.

[Anonymous Coward]

What is,
I plan on dropped 200 and building a 8 system cluster, just for fun.???

Re:At the price.

[drosboro]

Of course, if you're looking to spend $25 each (to get 8 for $200), you're going to get the version with no Ethernet... the Model B with Ethernet is $35...

Re:At the price.

[game kid]

I think he meant "dropping", not "dropped". He'll pay USD200 (I think he'll pay USD, given his prior comments) to get 8 Raspberry Pis to connect together.

As the other replies to him note, there might be some problems with that.

Re:At the price.

[s0litaire]

unless he's talking £ not $ then 8 for £200 is just possible. ^_^

Re:At the price.

[gbjbaanb]

who said he wanted performance. He said he wanted fun, which you obviously have no sense of. Good day sir!

Re:At the price.

[Anonymous Coward]

he wanted fun

When?

no

[Anonymous Coward]

The BBC microcomputer revolution was about a British company demonstrating to curious schoolkids how they could be part of the microcomputer revolution. It involved a group of local academics building a computer from a 6502 and generic parts, writing a simple OS and powerful BASIC interpreter, and providing lots of interface options. It involved liaising with and providing en masse to a vaguely enlightened primary and secondary school system pre-1988 Education Reform Act.

This is about one of a dozen generic ARM system-on-a-chip + connector boards being hapharzardly built in China (in fact, many smaller projects have gone *more* smoothly!), over-advertised to second rate geeks who don't have the talent to build something themselves or the clue to choose one of several existing systems. It's not even setting a good example of local electronics manufacture - hell, they lied about import duty etc.

The only thing it *is* is a sad example of what British consumer industry has become: go work for an American firm; select a few chips designed at another company; ask China to glue them together for you; choose a third party distributor; and market them badly. Maybe the ex-Acorn people who clearly have had an influence on this project have become comfortable doing what they do now - or maybe they're sad that they couldn't have made this into something more, overshadowed by sponsoring Broadcom. I guess we'll never know.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, there's a surprise - downmodding is being used to indicate disagreement.

Rather than actually tackle the question of why British industry, particularly high-tech consumer industry, is almost non-existent, why not just ignore the problem and hope it goes away? Why don't we continue letting America and Israel do the complex design work and allow China to build the boxes? All 60 million of us can continue to exist as financiers, shell company managers and their underlings. Surely those who actually build stuff will never accumulate capital or discover that they can manage processes themselves.

Re:no

[drosboro]

Lied about import duty? One of the most interesting things about this whole process has been how upfront and transparent they've been. When they discover some new roadblock or detail that they weren't aware of (such as the status of the Pi wrt import duties, or the requirement for CE testing), they've been quick to post to their blog and tell the world about it.

As for "and market them badly"... really? How much do you suppose they've spent on marketing, exactly? Are you aware of how much publicity they're getting, worldwide, for free? Even my local newspaper, which is absolutely dreadful for tech news, has carried very positive (and nearly accurate!) stories on the Raspberry Pi. Seems to me that, if there's one thing they've done extremely well, it's creating a huge buzz around their concept, WITHOUT blowing a huge pile on marketing.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

Lied about import duty?

1) They claimed crippling import duty but could not highlight which specific duty worried them - N.B. there is a ~15% maximum for EU imports across all electronics categories;

2) The duty applies to parts, not completed gadgets;

3) They claimed they would be building it abroad because a completed gadget wouldn't attract duty;

4) But then they claimed that they didn't think it needed EMC testing because it's not a completed gadget.

One of the most interesting things about this whole process has been how upfront and transparent they've been.

Not really. People building homebrew 6502 computers are more upfront and interesting about their development process. And at the end of reading their stories, you actually understand a great fucking deal about how a computer works and can build one yourself - you don't end up with the "and you can do the same... by contracting out to a Chinese fab".

As for "and market them badly"... really?

Has this been marketed so many dilettante geeks who didn't already know about the myriad of options may buy them? Yes.
Is there any evidence this is starting a BBC Microcomputer style revolution, i.e. is it backed up by a project in the style of the BBC Computer Literacy Project and mass marketing to schools? No.

How much do you suppose they've spent on marketing, exactly?

Clearly a lot more than they've spent actually putting a fairly simple device together.

Seems to me that, if there's one thing they've done extremely well, it's creating a huge buzz around their concept

And there's the rub. A "huge buzz" is not a sustainable plan. The Internet is a hive of huge buzzes - stripping the market-spin, we call this "hype". What is it about the Pi that sets it apart from this continuing buzzing that the Internet provides? What is unique? What good example does it set? What educational policy has been built around it?

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

did you read the reasons behind No. 4 on your list?

Initially the foundation expected the R-Pi would be only picked up by enthusiasts and developers (Like Arduino boards) so EC mark was not a requirement. Since it was being sold as a "Development" board NOT a finished Consumer item.

But when they realised the demand and reached out to the 2 companies to licence it, the companies WANTED the EC mark before they would sell it.

The R-Pi foundation was waiting for the initial surge of orders to pass so they could concentrate on the "Educational Version" of the device which WOULD go through EC testing since it was being sold as a complete consumer product.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really. People building homebrew 6502 computers are more upfront and interesting about their development process. And at the end of reading their stories, you actually understand a great fucking deal about how a computer works and can build one yourself - you don't end up with the "and you can do the same... by contracting out to a Chinese fab".

What's that got to do with anything? R-Pi isn't an exercise in teaching kids how to design and build a computer.

Has this been marketed so many dilettante geeks who didn't already know about the myriad of options may buy them? Yes.

We should all care about that, because?

Is there any evidence this is starting a BBC Microcomputer style revolution, i.e. is it backed up by a project in the style of the BBC Computer Literacy Project and mass marketing to schools? No.

Again, so what?

You don't seem to have much of a point. You seem to be angry about something and can't articulate why.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

Initially the foundation expected the R-Pi would be only picked up by enthusiasts and developers (Like Arduino boards) so EC mark was not a requirement. Since it was being sold as a "Development" board NOT a finished Consumer item.

Confirming that "we must manufacture abroad because finished gadgets don't attract import duty" is bunkum.

Either they contracted China because they thought it to be a finished item and believed that building a finished item would not attract duty; or
They regarded it was not a finished item and the duty argument was nonsense.

But when they realised the demand and reached out to the 2 companies to licence it, the companies WANTED the EC mark before they would sell it.

Huh. Neither Upton nor anyone relevant at Broadcom would have any idea that one of the largest electronics distributors in the UK would expect EMC testing on a finished product? The English are great at feigned ignorance, I must admit.

Re:no

[citizenr]

One of the most interesting things about this whole process has been how upfront and transparent they've been

Yes, like when they said they are sitting on 10K units ready to ship, or when they announced official launch and started selling nonexistent boards, or when they said that this time around they _really_ have 2K boards and to prove it they posted a picture of a chinese factory :). Or how now, 2 months after official launch, first people to get their hands on the boards are children in UK and not people who paind for the boards 2 months ago thinking they are buying something and not preordering.

WORST product launch ever. I just hope thats the end of rasppi drama and there wont be any more hurdles (for example lack of mpeg4 hardware acceleration, lack of camera interface documentation and so on)

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

What's that got to do with anything? R-Pi isn't an exercise in teaching kids how to design and build a computer.

Well, it certainly isn't an exercise in teaching kids how to merely "program" because - well - we have every single deskop and laptop in the world for that. Nor is it an exercise in teaching kids how to electronically interface to the outside world - a dozen boards already provide that, as does a parallel/serial to USB interface. So what unique property do you think the Pi offers? Why exactly would anyone want a Pi, apart from "it seems hyped a lot so it must be good", please?

We should all care about that, because?

Because there seems to be the belief that this is something more than just another single board computer for the hobbyist market.

You don't seem to have much of a point.

Perhaps you ought to improve your reading comprehension skills. I've made lots of points. If your counterargument is "this is just another Arduino-style project" then that's fair enough, and I'd kinda agree. Except it's marketed with the passion and inevitable fizzling-out of the OLPC project.

Re:no

[horza]

That's an interesting rewrite of history. The BBC Microcomputer revolution was about entrepeneurs Chris Curry and Herman Hauser bidding against other rivals (Sinclair, Newbury, Dragon) to produce a computer under contract for the BBC. Acorn was already selling the Acorn Atom commercially and the BBC Micro was an upgrade to this. There was no liasing en masse with schools. The academics, inc Sophie Wilson and Steve Furber, were working for Acorn not acting out of charity.

The sad thing is you don't recognise the 6502 had nothing to do with British engineering, yet the ARM chip 100% is. This is very much the BBC micro revolution Mark 2, minus the OS.

Phillip.

Re:no

[CnlPepper]

Re item 1) the tax is on individual components in the EU, but apparently excludes assembled PCBs. Hence (ignore also higher labour rates etc) it is more expensive to assemble the RPIs in the EU then get them made in china and shipped back. They spelled this out clearly on the blog. Its a stupid situation and one they have taken up with the UK minister for business.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

Couldn't resist the racial slur then?

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

The BBC Microcomputer revolution was about entrepeneurs Chris Curry and Herman Hauser bidding against other rivals (Sinclair, Newbury, Dragon) to produce a computer under contract for the BBC.

IOW it was "about a British company", the BBC, "demonstrating to curious schoolkids how they could be part of the microcomputer revolution," through a contract with...

a group of local academics

...Acorn, predominantly a collection of Cambridge University researchers and undergrads.

There was no liasing en masse with schools.

Now you see that the "British company" promoting microcomputer literacy was the BBC, not Acorn, I hope you can revise that.

The sad thing is you don't recognise the 6502 had nothing to do with British engineering,

A particular CPU is not "a computer".

yet the ARM chip 100% is.

Erm, the original few ARM iterations were. Pretending that Britain has done something wonderful and new just because a project involves something initially designed in Britain a quarter of a century ago... is typically British.

This is very much the BBC micro revolution Mark 2, minus the OS.

An American company provides a chip for a cookie cutter board built in China, surrounded by a hype and no long term plan.

This is not "the BBC micro revolution Mark 2".

Sorry.

Re:no

[AmiMoJo]

In the 80s it was possible to build a computer like the BBC Micro yourself, but now all the parts are surface mount. Often you can't solder them without a some serious equipment, assuming you can order the parts in quantities of less than 1000.

I will be getting one to run from solar.

Re:no

[petes_PoV]

Although the ARM chip was (past tense: the version in the RPi is quite an old generation) designed in GB, it is manufactured in foreign parts - just like the 6502 was never manufactured in GB.

If you wanted a through-and-through british design, development and manufacture you'd have to look at something like a transputer which WAS built in Britain during the mid 80s and would have wiped the floor with an 6502 based machine. Sadly it went the way of most british innovation and withered on the branch.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

It's an annoying problem, yes. Fortunately, all the 8-bit DIP parts are still available, and it only takes one budding entrepreneur with good SMT skills (not me!) to resell components with these attached. Whether the chips can then be run at the highest clock speeds remains a question, but again, does it matter for learning?

Re:no

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

Initially the foundation expected the R-Pi would be only picked up by enthusiasts and developers (Like Arduino boards) so EC mark was not a requirement. Since it was being sold as a "Development" board NOT a finished Consumer item.

Confirming that "we must manufacture abroad because finished gadgets don't attract import duty" is bunkum.

The Raspi was always going to be sold as a finish board; it's not possible for it to be hand soldered. The original intent was to manufacture in the UK but that proved to be too expensive in part due to the import issues... I believe the duty costs on the parts was greater than the duty costs on a completed board. Which is dumb, but not the fault of the Raspi Foundation.

The original plan was that the Raspi would be sold like Arduino/Beagle boards - i.e. as development boards - and thus would not require CE certification in the first instance. However, either due to the volume of demand and/or the way it was being promoted - i.e. as a board you can just plug straight into your TV for immediate use - the distributors then decided they needed certification from the get-go.

And before you say "but they should've known the demand would be high; how would they have delivered it to millions of school kids like this", the original manufacturing volumes were always going to be low, but they had expected the types of people who would pick up the intial Raspi's would be nerds/developers who would help in creating the eco-system for when production ramped up and certification had been completed.

And I guess for RS/Farnell, the problem was that with such huge demand, they'd be legally vulnerable if the product wasn't certified.

But when they realised the demand and reached out to the 2 companies to licence it, the companies WANTED the EC mark before they would sell it.

Huh. Neither Upton nor anyone relevant at Broadcom would have any idea that one of the largest electronics distributors in the UK would expect EMC testing on a finished product?

Think I mostly dealt with this above, but just to reiterate, nope neither Upton nor Broadcom would have expected that *because* they expected it to be treated the same as other "development boards". In that sense, the Raspi was a victim of it's own success... had the launch been lower profile, and the demand lower, CE certification probably would not have been required initial. Indeed, it might be that RS/Farnell would not have been brought on-board so early.

The English are great at feigned ignorance, I must admit.

Casual racism... smooth! You do understand that the people running the show actually have day jobs and that they haven't done this before. They're smart people, but much of this has been a learning experience... albeit, if you've ever started a business yourself, you'd recognise the whole "on-going learning experience" that is running a business. However, since you'd don't appear to understand this, I have to assume that you're just one of these people who coasts along in life whilst snearing at others who *do* make the effort.

You seem to be making a lot of effort poking holes in a product that you apparently feel is worthless, which srikes me as odd.... it's almost as if you're some kind of... I dunno... internet troll or something! If you don't like the product and feel that other products exist and are better, buy those.

But just to get things in some kind of perspective, the Raspi is approx. 6 months late against what the foundation originally said. This seems entirely consistent with the rest of the industry as far as I can tell, but the difference here is that Upton and co. have been entirely up-front with where they are and what the problems are. And for a first effort, and entirely for charity, I'd say they've done fantastically well and should be getting credit they deserve.

**Note: this comment is entirely based on what I know purely by following the Raspi news. I'm not affiliates with the Foundation or anything, and I'm still waits for my Pi!

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

Re item 1) the tax is on individual components in the EU, but apparently excludes assembled PCBs.

One more time: this fabled "tax" ( technically a duty ) DOES NOT EXIST. There is no evidence of it. None. The Foundation have ignored all requests for information on it. MPs have raised questions about it in the Commons and no-one has the faintest idea what they're talking about.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

The original intent was to manufacture in the UK but that proved to be too expensive in part due to the import issues...

Duty is 15% at most on electronics imported into the EU. That doesn't make anything "too expensive". It makes things slightly more expensive in the short term, while manufacturing is ramped up, but... to reiterate... improvement in local tech manufacturing would surely be a primary aim of any BBC Microcomputer-like project. The Computer Literacy project was thinking long term. This isn't.

and/or the way it was being promoted

Yes.

And I guess for RS/Farnell, the problem was that with such huge demand,

No. It depends on what you're selling it as. For example, as a radio amateur, nothing I buy for ham purposes has to be EMC certified. But it's my fault if it transmits naughtily.

Casual racism... smooth!

See, there's another example. You know perfectly well that suggesting some fault in our English culture is not the same as being racist. You might as well say that it's racist to suggest that Nigeria has a large proportion of, well, "Nigerian" scammers.

You do understand that the people running the show actually have day jobs and that they haven't done this before.

Yes, and no. 1) Broadcom own Element 14 was Acorn. 2) Broadcom are a semiconductor company and Upton's a smart techie and entrepreneur. For example, "distributors require EMC testing on consumer electronics" is something that, well, everyone knows, and they in particular would know.

if you've ever started a business yourself, you'd recognise the whole "on-going learning experience" that is running a business.

I've used Acorn computers on and off since, err, 1985, and used them to interface with mechanical and electrical wizardry in school about 5 years later. I started my first business in 1999. I've built a 6502-based computer from scratch, mostly as an aside to ham radio projects. And I just don't get the Raspberry Pi *thing* at all, sorry. It's marginally less annoying than that Wintel company which took the Acorn brand name + logo.

If you don't like the product and feel that other products exist and are better, buy those.

I'm trying to highlight problems with British attitudes toward high tech and manufacturing. I know the alternatives, thanks. I'm here to have an idle chat - as you are - and perhaps get a few ideas out.

and entirely for charity

what

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean it was a *LIE*? But they're a charity. I don't think charities are supposed to lie...

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

What a surprise that a factually accurate and non-trollish post was censored by the slashdot community simply because they dislike reality.

Slashdot sucks and so does the trollish, idiotic community supporting these troll-moderator morons.

Re:no

[horza]

Again you are wrong. Acorn was not a group of academics, it was a company. IBM employes academics and undergraduates but that doesn't make them an educational establishment. I have no intention of revising the fact: Acorn were not philanthopists liasing with all the schools to produce the ideal education computer, they fought for a contract with the BBC who came up with a spec in order to make money.

You fail to see the discrepancy between your "glory days" of the BBC Micro being a bunch of foreign components glued together and the new BBC Micro being a bunch of foreign components glued together. Next you will be trying to warp semantics to justify your argument of what is a "computer". The fact is that the world is now more global. The Pi is a British designed processor, running a kernal designed by a Finnish guy, using memory designed in Asia, viewed via graphic chips designed in America, and assembled in China.

Phillip.

Re:no

[xaxa]

One more time: this fabled "tax" ( technically a duty ) DOES NOT EXIST. There is no evidence of it. None. The Foundation have ignored all requests for information on it. MPs have raised questions about it in the Commons and no-one has the faintest idea what they're talking about.

That should be an easy statement to back up with a citation.

I can't find one. Can you?

Re:no

[xaxa]

The Raspberry Pi charity is trying to improve computer education in British schools. Better education is important for the country.

What have you done to help?

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

Acorn was not a group of academics, it was a company.

Maybe you're wrestling needlessly with the definition of "academic". A group of people forming a company in their university town as current or ex-researchers and students (e.g. Wilson working during the holidays) can be safely labelled as a "group of local academics" . Consider:

academic n.
1. A member of an institution of higher learning.
2. One who has an academic viewpoint or a scholarly background.

Chris Curry would be an example of someone in Acorn who wasn't really an "academic" - he wasn't part of the Cambridge circle nor recently involved in university work.

I have no intention of revising the fact: Acorn were not philanthopists liasing with all the schools to produce the ideal education computer

No - the BBC were. You misinterpreted my original post, I explained this, and you reply to me completely ignoring the clarification.

But it appears that your whole argument is based around a chip on your shoulder: you think that there's some huge issue to be made out of the fact that Acorn specifically were a profit-making company.

You fail to see the discrepancy between your "glory days" of the BBC Micro being a bunch of foreign components glued together and the new BBC Micro being a bunch of foreign components glued together.

The BBC Micro comprised a 6502 and a bunch of low density components arranged and built in the UK, fully packaged and documented, reflecting the state of the art in home computing and maximising expandability. A locally-written OS and language interpreter were created, and the system was promoted as part of a wider educational policy by the state broadcaster.

The "new" BBC Micro comprises two or three large scale, old multipurpose chips in a very routine configuration, using third party OS, developer tools, manufacturer, etc. It has nothing significant to offer, either technically or in a business sense, over a dozen similar projects.

Next you will be trying to warp semantics to justify your argument of what is a "computer".

You're the only one here who tried to make the CPU = computer argument.

The fact is that the world is now more global.

The world is global by definition. Try to say something substantive.

The Pi is a British designed processor,

No. It's a derivative of a British-designed instruction set but today's ARM chips aren't the chips made 25 years ago. Broadcom is American and the SoC is American-designed.

running a kernal designed by a Finnish guy,

The Linux kernel as it is today was designed by people residing in America.

using memory designed in Asia,

Not sure. Chip manufacture will be in one of China, Korea or Taiwan, I expect. While I wasn't really discussing chip fabs, I could bring that up, I guess.

viewed via graphic chips designed in America,

Yes.

and assembled in China.

Yes.

So, as I said, American design built in China. I'll add Korea's involvement somewhere if you want.

I reiterate my initial concern that Britain's doing fuck all today.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

One more time: this fabled "tax" ( technically a duty ) DOES NOT EXIST. There is no evidence of it. None. The Foundation have ignored all requests for information on it. MPs have raised questions about it in the Commons and no-one has the faintest idea what they're talking about.

That should be an easy statement to back up with a citation.

I can't find one. Can you?

Tariff code 85:8542 covers electronic integrated circuits. Note that all the tariff rates are zero: the supposed "tax on importing components rather than finished goods" does not exist.

Re:no

[julesh]

Duty is 15% at most on electronics imported into the EU

You don't know what you're talking about. The situation is very complicated, and varies depending on the type of component and the country of origin, but, for example, the duty on DRAM imported from Korea is 32.9%.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

That's nice. What about the tax on the passive components(resistors, capacitors, connectors) which is everything else on the board except for the 3 chips that would fall on this schedule.

Thanks, please try again.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

That's nice. What about the tax on the passive components(resistors, capacitors, connectors) which is everything else on the board except for the 3 chips that would fall on this schedule.

Thanks, please try again.

Do I have to do everything for you?

Capacitors, all 0%

PCB, all 0%

Diodes, all 0%

Resistors, all 0%

Re:no

[Serious Callers Only]

WORST product launch ever. I just hope thats the end of rasppi drama and there wont be any more hurdles (for example lack of mpeg4 hardware acceleration, lack of camera interface documentation and so on)

This is a £16 computer intended for education, I'd be very surprised if it has either initially. If that surprises you or upsets you, perhaps you shouldn't be trying to order a £16 computer.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

Err, that's an old link to countervailing (anti-dumping) duty imposed in 2006.

The up-to-date figures are presented in links given by myself and it seems now one other AC in posts below.

Re:no

[julesh]

Has this been marketed so many dilettante geeks who didn't already know about the myriad of options may buy them? Yes

What myriad? Which other products have a multi-hundred-megahertz 32-bit processor, 128 or higher MB of RAM, and respectably powerful DSP and GPU functionality for under $40? For under $80?

Re:no

[julesh]

The site you link to only appears to have a subset of the import tariffs based on origin country. If you click a specific product code to get to the country list it will show you the countries it has data for. If you select (e.g.) China from the drop down list at the top right, it will tell you it has no data for import tariffs on the product you selected from China. It also doesn't have data for Taiwan. As broadcom's preferred manufacturers are located in these countries, it is highly likely one or the other will be the relevant country.

To get the full list, you apparently have to pay a subscription to HMRC.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

It's no more trying to improve computer education in British schools than the OLPC was designed to help lift Third World kids out of poverty. It's one of those privileged men's dalliances which at best comes to nothing, and at worst detracts from what needs to be done. There is nothing technically new which this project offers. What's actually needed - a coherent educational programme, which could employ any of a number of off-the-shelf SBCs or, err, USB to parallel port cards on a laptop - is missing.

But Upton wanted to have some fun using Broadcom's money to build his own kit, just as the OLPC project. That's OK - which geek wouldn't want that opportunity? - but it shouldn't be painted as charity.

As for me, I have e.g. built homebrew computer and radio hardware as part of my affiliation with the local ham radio club. As well as demonstrating the kit, we do annual teaching combined with fundraising for BBC Children in Need. I've also given voluntary general computing lessons in schools. I try to do my part on a reasonable scale without making things worse, as any human ought.

But if I did nothing at all, it wouldn't change my argument. I don't regard myself as amazing - but I do regard the Raspberry Project as lame.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

it will tell you it has no data for import tariffs on the product you selected from China.

The "third country duty" is what applies if a specific country/group measure isn't in force. Isn't EU membership great?

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it seems to have them all. For example, importing DRAM chips from Taiwan is given at:
this page and for China it is: this page. They are both 0%.

"There are no EU preference measures for this commodity on this date" under the "Measures for specific countries and country groups" just means that there are no special reductions or increases and you apply the normal rates from the "Third country measures" box. It doesn't mean that there is no data.

The log-in is only needed if you want to create a personalised version of the site, or for automatic alerts if you regularly import a certain type of product and don't want to be caught out if there is a sudden tariff change.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

(Lol, you don't like the criticism, do you? Anyway...)

For $80? My generations-old laptop, eBay says. But it also has a nice keyboard and a screen.

Now, please tell me what the Raspberry Pi is for. It's not for teaching programming - my laptop does that fine. I've just been castigated for saying that it's to teach you about building computer hardware. So... what?

If you want to teach the country's kids to program, guide them on which software packages to download and help them to operate them. This isn't the '80s and the microcomputer revolution has come and gone - most people have access to a PC. If they don't already own one, there are a thousand charities or eBay auctions or Freecycle style outlets from which people can get free and powerful computers.

What problem is the Raspberry solving?

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, it certainly isn't an exercise in teaching kids how to merely "program" because - well - we have every single deskop and laptop in the world for that.

Don't know about where you live, but around here desktops run to more than $35.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

Where I live, being England, there's a glut of two-generation-old desktops and slightly older laptops which go for scrap. They typically include PSU, case, keyboard and mouse. And free CRTs are everywhere. If you don't have a friend or a friend of a friend who's a geek, there's always anywhere from Freecycle to Friday-Ad to eBay.

Starting from nothing and insisting on buying new, a usable Raspberry Pi will set you back way more.

Re:no

[citizenr]

WORST product launch ever. I just hope thats the end of rasppi drama and there wont be any more hurdles (for example lack of mpeg4 hardware acceleration, lack of camera interface documentation and so on)

This is a £16 computer intended for education, I'd be very surprised if it has either initially. If that surprises you or upsets you, perhaps you shouldn't be trying to order a £16 computer.

Perhaps if it doesnt have those Rasppi foundation should stop claiming it does? At this point I treat everything they announce as a wishful thinking full of omissions at best and lie at worst.

Re:no

[Sketchly]

As you pointed out, English ignorance is feigned. Others, not so much.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

Does the Broadcom SoC not use a POWERVR SGX GPU? (Designed by British firm Imagination Technologies?) :)

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

The Raspberry Pi is the fastest brand new computer you can buy for $35 and run Linux on it. Due to the inclusion of HDMI and composite video out it is compatible with both TVs and LCD monitors. It is a very small computer; only the size of a credit card. This makes it desirable for many embedded projects. It contains a very powerful GPU given its size, cost and power requirements. The Raspberry Pi uses very little power: 1-3.5 watts. In additional it has 8 GPIO pins that could be used to interface it with both prebuilt, kits and original self-made addon boards. It supports I2C and SPI bus communication with 2 chip selects. You could use that to connect a Raspberry Pi with sensors and other ICs using established protocols. Alternatively someone could use the GPIO pins to create their own bus and protocol. There's a lot of versatility and options available with the Raspberry Pi. I've already ordered one and I plan on buying another 5 for both myself and to give away.

Re:no

[Patch86]

An American company provides a chip for a cookie cutter board built in China, surrounded by a hype and no long term plan.

This is not "the BBC micro revolution Mark 2".

Sorry.

It's a bare-bones computer for the cost of a top 10 DVD, with a FOSS OS, available for schools at a time when most state schools can barely afford to keep the lights on, let alone buy consumer grade electronics. Whether you think it's revolutionary or not, it's certainly something most educators will feel excited by.

Computing teaching in school is spotty at best, if not outright depressing. I went to a so-called "technology specialist" secondary school, and did the most computing-y course they offered (a GNVQ in "ICT"), and I don't think I learnt much above how to format a document in MS Word. I think I learnt more from the decrepit Acorn in my primary school's "computer lab" than I did from the main curriculum. My fiancee is a teacher and is computer literate, and when she teaches the kids basic computing (e.g., programming in Scratch), other teachers react as if she's some sort of genius sorcerer. Anything that can be done to bring computing teaching somewhat back to the days of the BBC Micro is a step in the right direction.

Re:no

[PybusJ]

Well, it certainly isn't an exercise in teaching kids how to merely "program" because - well - we have every single deskop and laptop in the world for that. Nor is it an exercise in teaching kids how to electronically interface to the outside world - a dozen boards already provide that, as does a parallel/serial to USB interface. So what unique property do you think the Pi offers? Why exactly would anyone want a Pi, apart from "it seems hyped a lot so it must be good", please?

Assuming you're the same AC who's been posting similar comments up this thread then you seem to have paid plenty enough attention to Raspberry Pi to know that's not true. The rational of RPi has been pretty clearly laid out:

1) The is not the same supply of students arriving to universities with home programming experience as there were in recent decades.

2) The vast majority of kids no longer have access to devices for them to program:
      2a) At home "the computer" is needed to do homework, and frequently for the family to access online services and retailers. It's too important to allow kids to potentially mess up programming. Kids may have access to a games console, but that's a sealed device.
      2b) At school computers are reserved for ITC lessons and can't be used for programming as it "might mess up powerpoint".

(whereas in the 80s the home computer was just a recreational device and while you could use it to play games it started up to a BASIC interpretor inviting kids to try programming it).

3) These things are related and by solving (2) you can affect (1).

4) A computer that is priced at less than the cost of a textbook and can plug into a TV as display will be accessible to kids and school classrooms in a way more expensive devices are not.

5) It's possible to design, build and distribute a functioning device for less than $25/35.

You could reasonably argue that one or more of these assumptions don't hold, or that what they propose will fail, either for technical or sociological reasons to solve the problem. But saying that they are trying to do something other than teach kids how to program is silly.

As to why many people beyond educational charity supporters are interested in R-Pi: I guess because it offers a lower price point than the competitor hobbyist ARM boards; a more powerful and familiar option than microcontroller boards such as Arduino; and an easier route into projects using an embedded computer due to the mainstream distribution support.

Personally, it inspired me to want one for the picture viewer/programmable information display panel I've been meaning to build for ages. An R-Pi which runs at less than a watt will be perfect. My previous plan was to use the guts from a defunct netbook; I'd never considered ordering something like a beagle bone -- not only more expensive but needing an expansion board for video out.

Given the enthusiasm I've seen (among some) teachers and children for the device, I'm persuaded that it does serve a need not covered elsewhere. Whether slashdot readers should/should not like it, is only relevant to the degree that slashdot readers become involved in creating the software ecosystem that will be needed for this to be a success.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously don't have the brain capacity to understand that it's perfectly possible and legal to have *different* definitions of 'finished product' for tax/custom purposes and for EC testing purposes, as these involve two entirely different bodies.

Re:no

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphamosaic

Re:no

[rufty_tufty]

"I reiterate my initial concern that Britain's doing fuck all today."
Mr Upton is a UK based SOC architect, I think it's safe to assume he is on the team that designed the BCM2835 therefore that's designed in the UK
PowerVR's Graphics - Imagination technology - (you know that thing that's in most mobile 3D chips) designed in UK.
Most digital radio is based on Pure's chips which again are designed by imagination technology
CSR - the basis of most bluetooth devices, again UK.
Cytrix, UK based
Symbian - about half of their development was UK - ok bad example perhaps.
ARM - nuff said.

okay I'm biased here being Uk based and see this stuff all around me, I have friends who work for qualcom or ARM or doing wierd stuff with Sonar they can't really talk about or one guy who works on evidence management systems for the police. My ex boss has semi-retired and now designs car stereos, if you have a new BMW chances are you have one of his designs in your car.
That's without mentioning all the bio-tech, or engine design, or architecture based here. The two largest European engineering projects of the last two decades are both currently happening in London right now.
The vast majority of F1 engineering is done in the UK.

Now I won't argue most of these are a fairly niche areas, but there is stuff going on. That's without going into all the silly stuff going on in finance and internet fads. there may be few sucessful UK based companies, but there is no shortage of engineering or science in all its forms.

The First Hurdle

[Duncan J Murray]

As people have mentioned before, simply creating the product and making it available isn't going to miraculously rejuvenate computer programming in the UK amongst children. After all, many children already have access to computers capable of running python as it is - and so do schools. If schools want to teach computer programming, it doesn't actually need a raspberry pi.

I think the next step is to create tutorials for the raspberry pi, and to ensure that schools aren't penalised for teaching computer programming (as in it won't detract from teaching time and achieving targets in other subjects), and I think the only way to do that is to make computer programming a new GCSE, with a curriculum, exams, and formal teaching time.

Re:The First Hurdle

[Techmeology]

You're absolutely right! The Raspberry Pi foundation is interested in a lot more than simply making a (very cool) machine available. The general thought is that a lot of parents are anxious about the notion of allowing their children to experiment on an expensive home PC (being able to experiment with root access, while not mandatory to learn to program, is useful to get to understand how the computer works) - that's part of the reason why the foundation developed the computer. The foundation is also working to create a library of educational materials that are intended to help children learn to program and find out about their machine, as well as promote and encourage changes to the teaching of IT/Computing/Computer Science.

Re:The First Hurdle

[FORTRANslinger]

You're absolutely wrong! The focus should be on "educating" children to learn how to self-discover and self-learn using this low cost device. Spoon feeding some government sponsored syllabus is not going to achieve that.

Re:The First Hurdle

[horza]

I think you are wrong. The difference at school between using an Acorn Archimedes and using a Microsoft PC was huge. The latter was always locked down, you couldn't tinker with the OS (even if you could understand the mess of DLLs), limited as to what software you could install on there, couldn't drop down to assembler at the drop of a hat, and couldn't write full-screen arcade games in a few lines of BASIC. If I was forced to use Microsoft Windows rather than the Acorn computers when I was a child I would not be a software engineer today, that is for sure.

Forget tutorials for the raspberry pi. Load it up with Python, QtDesigner, and plenty of other goodies. Have a box full of them kids can pull out and play with during lunch and after school. I was publishing software by 14 yrs old and I never had a computer programming class. Don't bind them into a curriculum. Some might be inspired to write games, others control robots, maybe create a disco lighting system, an advanced art project, who knows??

Phillip.

Re:The First Hurdle

[bheading]

Spoon feeding some government sponsored syllabus is not going to achieve that.

The funny thing is that the experience the Raspberry Pi draws its inspiration from (the BBC Micro) practically was a spoon-fed government syllabus. The BBC (a government body) specified the computer, and the education authorities were all encouraged to purchase BBC machines for the schools they were in charge of.

It was a very good thing.

Re:The First Hurdle

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm much more exicted about the EOMA-68 stuff. Particularly these guys who are making an EOMA-68 compliant board with a BOM of $15 and almost all the interesting signals broken out into easy to access headers. They are basing it on the Allwinner A10 1.2ghz ARM Cortex A8 which has great specs (SATA, USB, etc) and seems to have datasheets available (try to get those for the Broadcom chip) All the hardware can be run by open source drivers with the exception of the hardware MPEG decoder which you can just ignore if you don't need it.

Re:The First Hurdle

[CnlPepper]

They have provided the spec sheet for the RPi SoC, it just has the gfx chip section removed (see the RPi blog). So hardly very different to the chip on the board you just wrote about.

Re:The First Hurdle

[petes_PoV]

parents are anxious about the notion of allowing their children to experiment on an expensive home PC

Most parents don't have the vaguest notion of what their offspring do on a computer. The only thing they are more lacking in, is the ability to fix it if the little darlings do manage to screw it up.

In practice, the simplest, cheapest and quickest way to get children programming on a small Linux platform would be to install VirtualBox, whatever Linux image is suitable and then let rip. If this image does become irrevocably broken, a simple VM reinstall costs nothing and has no inherent risks. An alternative: simpler to produce but not as flexible would be a standalone RPi/Linux bootable CD with their "educational" environment on it.

If the RPi foundation was truly interested in improving programming skills in a classroom, they would have gone down either of these routes - not tried for 6 years to produce a cheap piece of hardware that needs everything from a keyboard to a power supply to be added on before it will do anything. I question their motives.

Re:The First Hurdle

[jimicus]

I disagree. As soon as you start suggesting "install this software on your PC" - or even "boot from this LiveCD" you wind up with a plethora of support issues, ranging from "I tried it on the underpowered PC my parents bought at the height of the Vista debacle and found it too slow to be able to do anything", going through "My computer's been on the verge of failing for the last year; in a rather unfortunate coincidence it stopped booting immediately after installing your software and now I'm blaming you" and finishing up with "My offspring ran this CD and now they've broken the computer!".

Every single one of those issues has the same ultimate result: not-terribly-computer-literate Mum & Dad banning the use of "this raspberry pie stuff" on the PC.

Most of these issues evaporate if you provide a cheap & cheerful SBC to run it on.

Re:The First Hurdle

[gbjbaanb]

Most parents do have a good grasp of what their kids do, its play games, surf the web, chat on facebook. Not necessarily in that order.

The problem here is that everyone is running Windows, and that's been sold to them as a 'consumer device' rather than a general purpose computer. Its no wonder the vast majority of users knows how to program on it, it's practically not designed for that. Its designed to sell a pre-packaged box to people.

Your suggestion to "install virtualbox" shows your geek credentials - and that you'd be useless in business. You have no idea of the (lack of ) technical capabilities of the majority of people out there. This is why RPi is here, it's to promote those skills to the kids so they'll be able to understand what you were talking about.

Re:The First Hurdle

[TheGratefulNet]

good thing its not being introduced in tennessee.

they'd have to spend equal time 'theorizing' about how the raspi got created; and also if 2 ARM chips that are in a tightly coupled union are committing a sin while co-computing.

Re:The First Hurdle

[Niten]

The thing you might not have taken into account is the actual experience of the teacher who would like to introduce students to programming. I have no experience with the British school system, but I did work for IT in a K-12 U.S. school system not too long ago, so I think I have something to say about this.

Where I worked, students' computers were heavily locked down Windows machines running a restricted set of software. Because of the machines' age, the bad third-party GPO-wannabe software that the school district used to manage the systems, and various virus infections, these computers were not the friendliest things to teachers and students – and both groups were perpetually scared to death of "messing up" the computers and getting in trouble. In reality, these PCs were used primarily as overcomplicated interfaces to various bits of flash- and web-based educational software, and anything else was deemed too troublesome.

The point is that between the technical deficiencies and the bureaucratic ones, getting school IT to allow students to run a new type of program and then support it can frankly be a nightmare. You say these computers are capable of running Python, and this is true in the strictest sense, but in reality it's just not going to happen when half of the admins don't even know what Python is, and the other half are too scared of deploying a new, "nonstandard" interpreter.

And if that's how IT feels about the prospect, just think of how frightening it looks to the teachers.

Now contrast that with using something like the Raspberry PI. You can program without messing up your "real" computer! No IT support required, you can reset it to factory configuration in a heartbeat, and even if you do manage to physically break it somehow... hey, it was only $25. Perhaps most importantly, you can write a grant proposal to get a classroom full of them without having to go through the IT department. The Raspberry PI, or something like it, is the programming tool that teachers will be able to use in practice.

Re:The First Hurdle

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait. WHAT? This board has two connectors. One is a connector to a TV display. AND YOU DON'T GET DOCS FOR THE GRAPHICS CONTROLLER? Wow.

Re:The First Hurdle

[kenh]

Apparently you spent time in a poorly-run K-12 school district. Where you see a panacea to all that you imagine is wrong in education where computers are concenred, I see problems. The $25 price point is cute, but tarted up for the education market (case, PS, etc) it becomes $50, but that's still cheap. Imagine walking back into your old job, going into a classroom, taking the current "heavily locked-down Windows machines" and replacing it with a Raspberry Pi - what would the teacher think? Would they cheer for a technological revolution OR wonder why they were singled out to have their computers removed?

You can program on a Windows machine without "messing up your 'real' computer - it's called a web server.

No IT support required? Ha-Ha! That's a good one - K-12 school districts have support for VCRs and overhead projectors.

Hey, it was only $25? Or about 1/3 the likely cost of the approved textbook to support the computer... And don't forget the cost of sending the teachers out to professional development courses to train them to use/teach these new systems.

Rather than "revolutionize" their educational computing environment, why not hire a part-time Windows Admin to properly implement GPO policies?

Re:The First Hurdle

[Anonymous Coward]

A few years ago a neighbour of mine who works as a teaching assistant in a primary school was talking to me about computers. Her grandkids were round playing on the laptop and I mentioned about netbooks, how I thought they'd be revolutionary - a small laptop thats cheap, relatively powerful and compact enough for a kid to carry round. Neighbour replies 'Oh we've got a few of those in our school. They're no good, you can't do anything on them'... turns out they'd got hold of some of the early netbooks running Linux and the support staff/teachers a) Had no idea about Linux and b) Didn't see the point because they couldn't run Powerpoint/Word etc.

Sure, secondary schools are likely to have better-trained support staff but I'd wager similar will happen with the Raspberry Pi. In the UK only a small percentage of IT teachers have a proper computer science background, so schools are going to have to run courses in Linux installation, Python programming and whatever else they intend to do on the devices. This won't be cheap and education budgets are being squeezed. Furthermore most schools are beholden to MS so are unlikely to invest much in professional development on open source programs. Teachers should be able to teach themselves but with packed timetables many won't bother and will wait for courses to become available.

A simple question like 'Whats the difference between the Pi chip and the chip in my laptop?' alone would require a fair bit of reading & study and if your IT teacher is principally skilled in Office & similar its going to take them a while to understand ARM chips/Risc/low power computing and so on (at least to the level where they can explain it to a bunch of stroppy kids).

Re:The First Hurdle

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the same everywhere...I am a high school computer science teacher in Toronto, Canada. I'm forbidden to teach linux, (I complained so often about how we should be teaching linux, that they assigned me a science teaching timetable...blah...) due to corrupt administrators and (very) profitable 'support' contracts with M$, etc. Hence, locked down computers that can barely handle IE, and approved no nothing, do nothing 'software'. I bring my own linux laptop to school with me everyday, rather than use that junk.atio

Your post is right on, and it's the same everywhere there is an M$ infestation. Only the enlightened school boards teaching linux, etc. are competent...example follows:

http://www3.sd73.bc.ca/content/open-source-education

Re:The First Hurdle

[CastrTroy]

I would have to disagree on that. While Windows is a consumer operating system, and there is no programming required, Microsoft does quite a bit to get people programming on their OS. They give away great developer tools like VS Express Edition. If you don't want to install anything, you can program by creating a .vbs file and running that directly. It's not the most modern programming language, but you can do quite a few things with it. You can access quite a few things from it if you do a lot of digging and is quite good for system automation. People who complain that Windows doesn't have a good shell, try too much to do things in the command prompt and don't realize how powerful vbs is.

Re:The First Hurdle

[gbjbaanb]

sure, I know that too as I'm a developer for a MS shop, but we're the exception. Everyone else is told to be users, not developers. MS doesn't make it really really easy for them to get into coding. The Pi does things differently, that's why its a good thing.

(oh, and it's Linux, which is double-good ;) )

Re:The First Hurdle

[CnlPepper]

Are you trying to be deliberately dim? The section removed only contains the registers to control the gfx chip as there are restrictions on their release, everything else is there. Hardly very restrictive.

Actual cost?

[arisvega]

I know about the target price. What is the actual price?

Re:Actual cost?

[drosboro]

For this model (the Model B, with Ethernet), the target price is $35. The actual price, including shipping & handling, depends a bit on where you are in the world, but it's pretty much bang on $35 plus whatever shipping charge Premier Farnell or RS has come up with for your country. They've done an amazing job at keeping this thing on track, despite delays and major changes in manufacturing plans...

Re:Actual cost?

[uncanny]

I paid $35 for the model b & $20 for shipping to the US, still waiting for it though

Re:Actual cost?

[HarrySquatter]

No, he means the actual price minus the Broadcom subsidies.

Re:Actual cost?

[cmdr_tofu]

Plus the cost of storage/MicroSD card.

Re:Actual cost?

[s0litaire]

It's probably $40 per Model B if you don't count the discount they got from Broadcom for the SoC
With the discount the Foundation makes around $2 per device.

Re:Actual cost?

[s0litaire]

opps! forgot the "before local/state TAX / VAT is added..." bit...

Re:Actual cost?

[petes_PoV]

The actual cost would add on a case, a power supply, a mouse, a keyboard and an HDMI display, per $25 board - say 200USD minimum.

Since these boards are intended for schools, these extras would need to be purchased, as they can't just be "scrounged" from other equipment - which would then, itself become unusable. In addition there is cost associated with integrating all these parts, reckon on at least 1/2 hour per unit (which is probably cross-charged at the same $25 price of the board) So the whole "we can give schools a computer for the children to learn on for $25" turns out to be completely misleading

Re:Actual cost?

[Jmc23]

Here's where a smart entrepreneur can make some money by making a basic switch a la KVM and marketing it towards schools. Still have full access to the computers they already have but just plug in the RPI, flip the switch, and keyboard, monitor, mouse, and power, are all now connected to the RPI. This way students can carry around their PI's and just plug them into any available computer.

Some people just see problems, others see solutions.

Re:Actual cost?

[kenh]

Your $200 estimate for a complete kit is a bit "optomistic" (low), but let's work with it.

I'd like to encourage anyone considereing deploying these "systems" in a public school system take a moment and try to explain to a concerned parent how this cobbled-together "system" at $200 is a better educational tool than a $400 Win 7 PC or even a $300 Linux PC. Once you get past "it has a web browser" answer most parents will find it sorely lacking in comparison and wonder why their children can't get access to the same computers other US kids are using in schools all across the country.

Re:Actual cost?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you people never heard of xwindows or vnc? good god the lack of imagination in these comments is astounding

Re:Actual cost?

[Anonymous Coward]

At $35 parents or schools can afford to buy every child their own computer. The only thing that might be shared in the school is the monitor and keyboard in a class but each child could bring their own computer into school just like a textbook. The student could then take that same computer home and plug it into their television which everyone seems to have at worst and at best maybe their parents can afford them a dedicated monitor at home. The same computer, like a textbook, can be affordable for every student to have one. For a class that teaches programming or electronics this would be very useful.

Obsolete on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm restraining myself from yawning, but you can get more powerful android platforms for the same price. $20 S&H? Seriously?
http://www.slashgear.com/eser-tablet-presents-the-50-android-02221101/

This project was mismanaged to the extreme.

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

Down-modded? Android devices for education actually have MIT's App Inventor backing them up. WTF does the Raspberry Pi have other than "if you build it, the open source community will come" and missed delivery dates?

The Raspberry Pi is a low volume breakout board for an unobtanium SoC, made in china, with closed source drivers. No development community to speak of. The wankers on their forums have ZERO arm dev experience and are all expecting an Arduino learning curve.

No example code = no chance in hell this product is going to "educate" anyone except on critical thinking, caveat emptor, and how to get rich making big promises and delivering lackluster results. 100% guaranteed these developers have been on full salary as they bumble their way to a deliverable.

Late delivery on a price target technology product is as pointless as releasing a movie-based video game 6 months after the DVD release.

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[maxwell demon]

Since when is 20 equal to 50?

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[VMaN]

That tablet will NEVER be anything but a painful experience to use.

The Rpi can be perfect for a number of projects, and infinitely more configurable.

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

$35+$20S&H

I write bills of materials for a fucking living. If that $20 S&H doesn't stink to high heaven then you're sipping on the kool aid.

Why is it limited to 1 per customer? Because they are hiding profit in that outrageous shipping and handling fee like a shameless ebay vendor.

I can get free S&H from deal extreme on an Allwinner A10 tablet and have it here in 2 weeks. $70. That's cheaper on a $/ghz basis and it comes with more peripheals and a screen that doesn't involve an 8ft RCA cable and a 200 lbs CRT color Television.

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

You're high.
That tablet has a resistive touch screen. Rpi has... an RCA Jack.
That tablet has a 3 axis accelerometer. Rpi has... the "Gertboard".
That tablet has a wifi adapter. Rpi has... a broken Ethernet port.
That tablet has a GPS reciever. Rpi has... a paper map used to shield the Ethernet jack from EMI.
That tablet has a Lithium battery. Rpi has... a specification on what switch mode power supply to buy.
That tablet had an enclosure with buttons. Rpi has... exposed header pin solder blobs to short out on metal surfaces and scratch wooden table tops.

That tablet has a 1.5ghz processor with 1gb of RAM. Rpi chokes on Google Chrome like a bag of dicks.

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[maxwell demon]

But what if your intended use does not include adding a screen or high GHz? And I doubt that with a screen you'll get the low energy consumption. And does that tablet have a comparable form factor?

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[maxwell demon]

The Raspberry Pi has a HDMI port as well, so your claim that you need a CRT is clearly wrong.

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[VMaN]

All of those, including the garbage resistive screen and 3hr+ battery are irrelevant for this project.

Why are you bringing up Google Chrome? Do you want to run a desktop on the thing? All that says is that you have NO idea what to use it for. I'd take a debian install with repos ANY day over android for what this thing can be used for.

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[CnlPepper]

Wow, so bitter...did they bugger up a business plan of yours Mr AC?

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[CnlPepper]

Actually if you have ever ordered from Farnell and RS, you'll find that the shipping charge is about typical, especially for orders that require airfreight. Our company has accounts with both of them.

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

Please. I predicted that this project would be an abortion the minute 1001 inappropriate uses for a Rpi became a meme. Everything from Pirate Bay wanting to attach them to balloons to reading stupid shit on their forums.

It's noteworthy that NONE of the imangineering that surrounds these useless devices involves using them as intended(in a fixed location staring at a computer monitor tethered to a wall outlet).

We live in the age of mobile computing and they've figured out that they can bundle a video card with ram and a CPU. Whoopde fucking do. If I don't need the portability then I'll pick up a boat anchor system with more power from Goodwill's collection dump. If I need the portability I'll get an Allwinner tablet.

They are trying to compete with USB flash drives which I haven't used to do anything but repair broken computers in almost 3 years. I'm gonna dial the chuckling to "hardy harr harr" the minute a UK school bans hooking on of these up to their network when they realize that it's being used to DoS their Norton sever or packet sniff the network.

On a tablet I play by my rules. On a borrowed computer monitor, I'm fixing to get expelled or worse: NEVER FUCKING USE THE THING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

This device is about as useful as a carrying handle on a Gamecube.

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm bringing up Google Chrome as a basic performance benchmark. I have no idea what to use it for because it defies being used. It is use-LESS. Seriously, WTF are you supposed to use it for? I've spent over a year spec-ing embedded computers for various applications. Raspberry Pi has nothing useful. It's a system on a chip with video output and no other peripherals to speak of. The only reason I would pay $55 for such a performance compromised POS is if I was planning on using it for something illegal and intended to abandon it.

In what way is it preferential to a WRT-54G at that point?

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget the 1080p decoding and HDMI input, dude. Am sure teenage boys would never think of taking hi-def porn in to school to show to their friends at lunchtime....

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

It only costs $35+$5 shipping here in the US. There is no $20 shipping.

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

It's cheaper than a WRT-54G. $35 vs $54
It's smaller than a WRT-54G. 3.370 × 2.125 inches vs 9.3 x 1.8 x 6.0 inches
It consumes less power than a WRT-54G. 1-3 watts vs 2-4+ watts.
It's faster than a WRT-54G. 700Mhz vs 240Mhz
It includes more memory than a WRT-54G. 256MB vs 8MB.
It supports and includes more peripherals than a WRT-54G. I2C, SPI, UART, SD CARD, GPU (hdmi/composite out), 8 GPIO, AUDIO
It has 8 GPIO pins which is more than the ~1-2 that a WRT-54G has.

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[DrXym]

The Pi is basically a media player without a case or remote or power supply. As such it can most obviously be turned into media player. But it's running Linux albeit through a low powered SOC so it can be used for anything Linux can be used for, e.g. web server, mail server, NAS, router, firewall and so on. It also has a GPIO so you could hook it up to sensors or use it to control something like a milling machine, robot or whatnot.

So it's not useless. It's certainly of limited form factor but it has a lot of uses. I suspect the majority of Pi's purchased for home use will end up running XBMC or similar.

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

not one mention of India, its interesting how you all conveniently forget India when it's time to commend

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[CnlPepper]

If you can't see how useful a commodity, tiny form factor computer (with great connectivity) that costs throw away money is then I really pity you.

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[DrXym]

What?

Re:Obsolete on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

And let's not forget India in all of this.

This has gone far too well

[RotateLeftByte]

and if it takes off in the US i forsee a plethora of LawSuits alledging patent, copyright and anything else the syhsters can think of just to stop this in its tracks.
If this becomes really successful I have no shadow of a doubt that the likes of Microsoft will see this as a threat to their business and try by whatever means to stifile if not downright kill it.
You really can't have people building a computer now can you? Whatever next? Desiging their own Operating System and giving it away?

On a personal note, this device really takes me back to my Degree project in 1975 where I build a DtoA and AtoD converter board for the NatSemi IMP16 Microcomputer. in the years afterwards I build a number of UniBus devices for the PDP-11.
Interfacting 'kit' to computers has gotten a lot easier these days.

Re:This has gone far too well

[Anonymous Coward]

Lay off the crack.

Nobody cares about this project enough to sue them. If it wasn't for the hype, this products release would be lost in the news. The fan boys will quietly disappear when they realize that they can't think of a single use for these boards and aside from some lame hackaday blog posts showing off their analog video "hello world" projects, the inability of this product to make motivated talented programmers out of them will be a huge disappointment.

Re:This has gone far too well

[CnlPepper]

Anyone who can't think of a use for these boards is lacking a serious amount of imagination.

1) Educational tool
2) Media center
3) Robotics controller (CNC tools, experimental robots)
4) Homebrew NAS
5) Cheap linux box
6) Point of sale machines
7) Disposable computer for test industries

and that was 1 minutes thought.

So many uses it's stupid...and the reason it is so damn useful is that it will be have good support and it is so damn cheap for the power you get.

Re:This has gone far too well

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, (2) is dead out of the box due to zero MPEG-2 support.

Unless you want to convert everything to AVC and don't want to play any DVDs at all and some Blu-Rays.

Sucks they didn't make it an add-on at extra cost, because I know the licensing is expensive, but there you have it.

Arduino and similar stuff is probably more suited to a robotics controller since it's always nice to have real-time control without extra hassle.

I'll give you the rest, though. :) Guess all us media center folks are a little butt-hurt over the MPEG-2 debacle.

Re:This has gone far too well

[Anonymous Coward]

The Raspberry Pi uses the same Broadcom BCM2835 multimedia SoC as the wildly successful Roku 2 media player, which has sold over 4 million units. So much for your "dead out of the box" nonsense.. :-)

But you're missing the entire point of the Raspberry Pi anyway. It's not intended to give you a cheap media player. You can get lost as far as the project goals are concerned. It's intended to provide a cheap computer for education, not to turn kids into media consumers.

Your objections fail completely.

Re:This has gone far too well

[O('_')O_Bush]

Since when was I not able to build a computer before Raspberry PI? Everything from SBC's to cluster builds are easily availabe, just at a higher cost than RPI. RPI isn't innovative, it is just cheap.

Re:This has gone far too well

[Anonymous Coward]

The decoders are part of the GPU firmware blob. They have chosen not to include decoders for some popular formats and no encoders at all, due to the licensing costs. Other systems with the same SoC can support many more formats if they come with a different firmware. The RaPi is not going to be a good universal media player.

Re:This has gone far too well

[jones_supa]

But can someone point out what exactly are the codecs that they have enabled. I remember seeing the Pi tech specs PDF and I remember it saying that there was 2 codecs enabled of the Broadcom chip.

Re:This has gone far too well

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when was I not able to go from the UK to New York before airplanes? Everything from yachts to dinghies are easily available, just at a lower speed than airplane. Airplane isn't innovative, it is just cheap.

Since when was I not able to communicate across the country before email? Everything from telephone to postal mail are easily available, just at a higher cost than email. Email isn't innovative, it is just cheap.

I could go on...

Re:This has gone far too well

[kenh]

How many P3 and P4 computers will be replaced in schools with Raspberry Pi systems?

If only there was some way to load a development environment onto those surplus computers being shiped by the, uhm, ship load, to China to be recycled - that would be sweet!

Re:This has gone far too well

[kenh]

In order:

1) Educational tool - seriously? You imagine this will be some sort of "stone soup" revolution in education, all centered arounf a $25 circuit board with no case, PS, keyboard, ouse or display, no course materials, and on a platform unlike the Macs or PCs the students have at home, their parents use at work?

2) Media Center - When most folks discuss a media center they don't imagine an appliance that could easily be replaced by a refurbished XBox, $50 Roku, or an Apple TV. They usually look for a system they describe as an HTPC with enough "umph" to decode blu-ray discs.

3) Robotics Controller - the educational market is littered with dozens and dozens of purpose-built robotics controllers, with course material readily available to support it's use in the classroom.

4) Homebrew NAS - this is better than a $29 Pogo Plug how, exactly?

5) Cheap Linux Box - Assuming you have an available TV with an appropriate digital input, keyboard, mouse, power supply and the inclination to assemple all the pieces, how, exactly, is this better than the P4 system rotting away in your neighbor's closet? Any chance you'd need an internet connection to really make this useful? That has you spending $20+ month on your internet connection to feed your $25 linux box.

6) Point of Sale machines - So you imagine a vendor will invest in a touch screen flat panel display, barcode scanner, and cash drawer and build them all around a $25 circuit board? Why? OpenPOS runs fine on a 386 or better machine.

7) Disposable computer for test industries - what does this mean? A data collection device? Please define "disposable" - any chance this "disposable coputer for test industries" would involve using sensors that sell for 10-100x more than the "disposable" computer?

"and that was 1 minutes thought" - that was pretty obvious.

Re:This has gone far too well

[kenh]

You seriously think this will ever be a threat to Microsoft? On what planet?

This system reminds me of the COSMAC ELF of the early 1970s, but with a an ethernet port and an HDMI connection for the TV. Those who think this is revolutionary need to expand their knowledge of computer history to at least a point prior to Saint Linus came down from the Mount with his Linux Kernel...

Re:This has gone far too well

[Anonymous Coward]

This board is a terrible selection as an embedded controller. Absolutely none of it's functions makes it well suited for robotics. It's peripherals are shit(Gertboard? Seriously?), it's power hungry, and aside from it's supposed CMOS camera interface, has absolutely no application it's suited for. Android has OpenCV running right now and you don't have to fuck with webcam drivers or ARM development(which is a royal pain in the ass for anyone who has never tried).

Call me when people are using this thing for Software Define Radio and I'll consider it worthy of more attention than a door stop.

Re:This has gone far too well

[Zerth]

They will be including the encoders at a later date once they have picked a camera for the CSI port.

Re:This has gone far too well

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem is this really isn't about enlightening youth on the joys of nerdery. Its about companies wanting to make more money from the taxpayer. Now that most schools have rooms full of fairly fast PCs that will do everything a kid needs for the next half-decade the companies are itching to see what else they can sell before the gravy train dries up. This is why over the past year or two there's been a fixation on tablets, netbooks, smart phone apps and now the Pi in schools. Its hard to sell £2000 PCs anymore, so why not convince education authorities they need to 'move with the times' and buy a ton of overpriced hardware that is likely to fail or break every year and be impossible to fix cheaply like a Desktop?

For the Pi itself its pretty obvious those cheap computers will cost as much as a netbook by the time all the bits have been added and they're at the standards schools require. Considerably more if you include extra support costs to stop kids using them as hacking tools, video players and so on. If this was really about education then 99% of stuff can be achieved using free software on already existing PCs. Teachers could even give the kids youtube/Khan videos to watch in their spare time as homework along with little projects. However that would not generate income for 'educational consultants', suppliers and other assorted hangers-on.

Now interestingly the Pi is going to require a fair degree of computer literacy to get working. The argument 'kids who know nothing about hardware can buy a Pi and educate themselves' assumes your average teen will be able to install Linux, download programs and play with electronics before a single line of code is ever written. Some will easily manage this but the young people who this project is supposed to be reaching out to will have no idea and won't bother. Sadly most teachers have no idea either so they're going to need a ton of retraining before they're competent & I have a feeling that if you train tens of thousands of IT teachers in programming, operating systems, ARM chips and homebrew electronics that a large percentage will push off and get higher paid jobs elsewhere...

Re:This has gone far too well

[Patch86]

In order:

1) Educational tool - seriously? You imagine this will be some sort of "stone soup" revolution in education, all centered arounf a $25 circuit board with no case, PS, keyboard, ouse or display, no course materials, and on a platform unlike the Macs or PCs the students have at home, their parents use at work?

I don't know how many P4 boxes you can buy, for $25, which include a display, keyboard, mouse, course materials, etc. Even the cheapest netbooks are still not much less than $200 in the UK.

The platform being "the same as the one they have at home" is a non-point. Educators don't expect kids to already know the material, so their prior experience is a non-issue.

If all Raspberry Pi turns out to be is a very cheap computer with a suite of FOSS educational tools pre-loaded, it's still something that will be of great interest to schools. No revolution necessary; it can just be a nice tool for schools to buy, or not buy, the same as all the other supplies that are available for schools.

Re:This has gone far too well

[Anonymous Coward]

Summary of kenh posts:
"I hate this project for unknown personal or business reasons and want it to fail; I will rubbish any use for it and make up any shit I can to try to put people off."

Tip: Your bizarre obsession with trashing this project has actually made me (and probably others) *more* interested in it and more likely to buy one.

Plenty of room for competition

[Morgaine]

Although you're making a "glass half full" kind of prediction, it's not hard to imagine that the opposite of your guess might occur in the US: All the other ARM licensees might see this as a fantastic coup for Broadcom, and follow suit with their own competing $25 - $35 boards.

After all, Texas Instruments already has their own $5 SoC available and used in their BeagleBone, so they could quite easily remove features from that board and release something into the Raspberry Pi price niche for education. (The BeagleBone's $89 places it far outside the Raspberry Pi's price niche.)

The Chinese will of course follow suit with boards based on their wildly successful Allwinner A10 ARM device, which is far better than Broadcom's SoC (on specs) and only costs $7 in production volumes. Expect a pile of competitors from that quarter!

Why wait?

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of waiting months for an RPi you can buy a BeagleBone right now. If you don't need video output then its better than an RPi (faster CPU, mounting holes connectors don't stick out every which way, better hardware documentation (i.e. it is available, unlike RPi's SOC.)) It costs twice as much but we're only talking $40 and you can have it next week. I'm glad I bought my BB back in February instead of holding out for RPi.

Excessive Raspberry Pi marketing on /.

[Grieviant]

How many more RPi non-stories are going to appear on /. before the device is actually released to the masses? The device sounds great and all, but this has gone past the point of absurdity.

Re:Excessive Raspberry Pi marketing on /.

[turkeyfeathers]

Absurd? Wait until they post a Slashdot review of Packt Publishing's "Programming for Raspberry Pi" (available for pre-order now for only $19.95 or 2.375 bitcoins).

What about the backorders ?

[zzyzyx]

I thought the first 10k batch had already been sold and they were scrambling to get them certified to be released from customs. All of a sudden they have a batch ready to give to a school. Looks just like more PR to me. Maybe I wouldn't be so suspicious if their didn't already have so much delay delivering the goods to the actual customers.

Project plans

[jones_supa]

Do you already have some ideas about what you plan to do with the R-Pi? Aside the teaching programming part, it should be a wonderful platform for all sorts of embedded projects.

Re:Project plans

[Anonymous Coward]

I plan on using it as a robot controller along with a video camera, an arduino, multiple i2c sonar sensors, motor controller and i2c accelerometer.

Stifling Regulation in U.K. Kills Jobs

[stoicio]

From what you are saying regarding the costs of discrete components vs. a finished board, perhaps someone in government should be noticing that the organisation of these regulations is stifling manufacturing in the U.K..

Re:Stifling Regulation in U.K. Kills Jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

A careful trawl through all the tariff codes (c.85, and assembled stuff in c.84 for comparison) suggests that all the components would be zero rated - heading 8532 for capacitors; 8533 for resistors; 8534 for the PCB; 8541 for crystals/diodes and 8542 for the various ICs.

This is one of those herd mentality episodes where a lie's been repeated so much that everyone believes it. OP is exactly right.

Deliveries have started

[Anonymous Coward]

How many more RPi non-stories are going to appear on /. before the device is actually released to the masses?

It's a techie's bare board and its price point is totally revolutionary for a Linux machine with HDMI, so this kind of news is highly appropriate for the Slashdot audience.

Regarding "released to the masses", that started yesterday (Friday 13th April). A pile of people have already received their UPS tracking number for imminent delivery, and not just in the UK.

In other news...

[kenh]

So could someone explain to me how these $25 circuit boards are "better" than any one of the countless millions of P4 computers that we dump in the cargo holds of contaner ships heading back to China to be "recycled" into a small amount of precious metals and a whole lot of toxic waste???

Last time I looked this system required a power supply, USB keyboard and mouse, case, and a display that can accept a digital signal - in comparison, the Vic-20, Commodore 64, and Sinclair ZX-81 all came with keyboard, case & and power supply, and only required a composite video capable monitor (or a TV modulator).

This is much more like the Apple I - the circuit board that could be bought unpopulated or completed, and was quickly snapped-up by a small community of enthusiasts and then made obvious the need to offer a complete system that included a keyboard, case and power supply.

How long till Raspberry Pi offers their version of the Apple II, a system in a case with a keyboard, mouse, and power supply?

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, this has composite out, on both models.
Hell, that's 40% of the reason I want one.
Now, the lack of a case is outright stupid, but the lack of other things like a keyboard and mouse is to be expected at the sub-$40 price range.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, these machines use much, much less power than these old systems. Think 7 watts vs 250 watts or more.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Troll much? In what condition are these p4's? Whose will oversea the inspections of them to ensure all components are working? Where can you get replacement PCI cards for under the cost of the pi? Do they come with monitors? Are they small enough to Cary around? How much work is involved in making a distro that is guaranteed to work on all of them?

There are some mnay things good about the pi. It is a rare example of what the site is/was all about. The best comment you can come up with 'everyone should use old tech that no one wants instead'. Dude, that's just mean.

Tell you what, you come up with a foundation that solves all the problems with using p4's as a way of introducing kids to the fun of computers and ill buys one off you for $30 as well.

Re:In other news...

[Crookdotter]

The educational version for release later will be cased. They want it in the hands of alpha nerds first to kickstart projects and development for it so that it's all there later this year.

I dont get this child angle

[Osgeld]

What? are there NO computers in the UK? making a small cheap computer is not automatically going to spark a fire in a child who is surrounded by more powerful machines every moment of their lives capable of doing the exact same thing

Re:I dont get this child angle

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, its a matter of motivating kids to learn something amidst all the distractions of modern society. What tends to happen is when a technology is new lots of people become inspired by it and we get cool new ideas. Once established it loses its glamour and then for most people is just a tool they use.

Consider how the children of the 20s-50s were amazed by the progress in plane design. Every young boy would be obsessed with planes. Young girls wanted to be air stewardesses or even the next Amy Johnson. Nowadays when a higher proportion of people than ever before (especially in the UK) fly at least once a year how many average teenagers know anything about aeronautics? Planes to them are just something to get around in and a bit dull; only a minority care past the 'Its gets me to Spain' stage and learn more.

We're in the same position with PCs. The technology is great but to most of us its just another way of doing stuff. The Pi is most likely to end up in the cupboard as its pretty irrelevant in the days of cheap i3 laptops or £25 HD media players. Its kind of tragic when you consider the Internet has made learning material available to anyone with a broadband connection that would have stunned academics of the recent past. BUT... the internet is also full of crap and the majority will spend hours looking at it instead of doing something that makes them think. Its why the sneezing panda has 134 million views on youtube whereas the best educational vids can barely manage 0.5% of that.

If we solve the problem of how to motivate people to not fixate on crap then we may be on the verge of a new Renaissance.

Re:I dont get this child angle

[Patch86]

In a way, it's "nudge theory" in action again (the political class's buzzword du jour, but it does have some merit).

The idea is that while a kid could be adventurous with the £600 home Win7 laptop, odds are both they (and their parents/teachers) will feel overly cautious, treating it with kit gloves, in case the kid somehow "breaks it". It's irrational, but that's the way people think.

Give them a £30 computer that looks like a piece of soldered electronics, it's far more likely that both the kids and their parents will categorise it as a "tool", and actually let loose with them.

Capabilities be damned, it's all about the attitude.

That's great and all but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Everywhere I search online, it seems that everyone is out of stock. Looks like they're hard to get, even with the distribution expansion. Where am I supposed to find these things if they're constantly out of stock?!

R is too fast

[Anonymous Coward]

R is fun but is tooo big. and to fast. small hardware with very low power + 2-3 AA batery and buttons this is a wonderfull idea

Is this really the start of a revolution?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't see how this board (clever as it is) will really help school kids get close to the hardware, which is the most important missing component of IT knowledge, even for many practitioners. The devices on this board are too complex, the OS too abstracted, and the available literature for both too obscure.

As a result it is probable that the teaching around this board will be superficial and impart little more than a sense of having tinkered with a complex toy.

It would be much more effective to start kids off with midrange PIC programmed in assembler and C, so they get a solid groundwork in machine level fundamentals before migrating to full-blown systems.

Headline

[StikyPad]

Not every sentence, requires a comma.