GSA Emails Recount Inside Story of Exploding Toilets

First time accepted submitter v3rgEz writes "Six months ago, the toilets of the General Services Administration started exploding, injuring two employees and beginning the agency's spiral down the drain of bad press (this is the same GSA now under fire for pricey Vegas conference flings). E-mails just released under FOIA now show the culprit: Compressed air + ancient plumbing + leaving it all unattended."

Comments

So that's why...

[busyqth]

I think that if my posterior was injured by an exploding toilet, I'd feel justified in taking a two-week junket to Las Vegas.

Re:So that's why...

[CaptainLugnuts]

They should have hired Encyclopedia Brown to investigate. He's solved similar cases before.

Re:So that's why...

[philip.paradis]

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. If what happens in your posterior stays in your posterior, you need to consult a doctor, unless you developed an interest in a certain variety of beadwork in Vegas, in which case the problem is bound to work itself out in due time. If it persists longer than three days, you still need to consult a doctor.

Why does it hurt when I pee?

[stevegee58]

God I love Frank Zappa lyrics.

Bad Press or Bad Behavior?

[codepunk]

The GSA is a prime example of why raising taxes on anyone I don't care what class is beyond stupid.

Re:Bad Press or Bad Behavior?

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Because they aren't perfect, because there are fallible human beings involved?

If that's bothering you, you really should curl into the fetal position because it can happen anywhere. Your plumber, your auto mechanic, the guy who runs the red light, the priest at the local church, anybody anywhere can be up to no good.

And if you think cutting pay will be any thing but a disincentive to honesty, you any want to ask yourself how you'd feel if you got abused into anything.

Re:Bad Press or Bad Behavior?

[girlintraining]

The GSA is a prime example of why raising taxes on anyone I don't care what class is beyond stupid.

Be thankful you don't get all the government you pay for.

Re:Bad Press or Bad Behavior?

[forand]

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself where tax dollars are being spent. We are not over spending on maintenance of government facilities (see the article), we are over spending by spending 20% of our budget on defense and even more out of budget. Instead of investing in infrastructure, a time proven way to stimulate long term growth, we are neglecting it and talking about cutting taxes when we are not taking in sufficient fund to pay the current budget.

As US citizens we live in one of the most affluent countries in the world and pay one of the smallest tax rates. While I disagree with how we spend some of the Federal budget I find it difficult to imagine how I am not getting far more than I pay for in taxes from my government. Living in a democracy requires that we compromise; that we accept that some things will be done that we disagree with; that we will not be happy with every decision our government makes. We, as citizens, have a duty to hold our elected officials accountable for their failing and to seek better representation when they do fail. We also have a duty to call out those within government who see it as a cash cow, as is the case with the GSA spending, as well as those outside government, as in the case of oil companies being given tax subsidies. Regardless of these few failings, hampering our government further will not lead to some magical land of plenty but to a cyberpunk dystopian brubdom.

Re:Bad Press or Bad Behavior?

[cpu6502]

If the GSA ceased to exist, it wouldn't matter if they were perfect or imperfect human beings. Meanwhile we the people would be richer (less government spending). In fact I'm reaching the point where I think NO central government would be a good plan, except to provide a navy and army for defense, and build roads for internal transport, and that's about it.

Anything else could, like Europe, be left to the member states. Or private companies (mail, trains, cars). Or both (regulated monopolies like utilities).

Re:Bad Press or Bad Behavior?

[Leebert]

Forget the fact that the Las Vegas conference cost the same as 3 minutes [armscontrolcenter.org] of the Iraq war.

It's that thinking that perpetuates the problem. A whole lot of "it's not as bad as..." adds up quickly, no different than all of those little incidentals on a day-to-day cumulatively impact your budget more than most people realize. Just because the Iraq war is a grossly egregious waste of money doesn't mean that we ignore waste elsewhere.

Forget the fact that the same and worse is standard in private industry

Private industry (with a few notable exceptions) that wastes too much money will go out of business because its products will be too expensive. The government has no such economic pressures; it simply taxes more or borrows more. In government, it's OUR money being wasted.

I believe it's perfectly consistent to be outraged at the waste of tax money while simultaneously not condemning a similar waste in the private sector. (Taxpayer-funded bailouts, government-supported monopolies, etc. notwithstanding)

Re:Bad Press or Bad Behavior?

[Anonymous Coward]

That assumes there would be no consequences from the elimination of the GSA. Their budget is about 20 billion. You're flipping out over a tiny portion of it, and ignoring the other work they do because you have no personal experience with their functions.

Keep making assumptions like that. After all, if you don't recognize the benefits, it can't be that important. The GSA actually does a lot to avoid excess duplication of effort on the part of the other government agencies, even including those who you would support.

And your concept of the EU is...amusing. The reasons they are separate nations is cultural and historical, not because of any deliberate political decisions, and no, they will not be adopting your libertarian wet dream.

Mostly because they realize there's more to good government than national defense and highways. I don't know why, maybe it's because they think about power generation, environmental pollution, health care and the like. And sometimes, it's a bigger concern than a single US state can handle. Heck, sometimes the US even has to work with other countries in a co-operative framework.

Damn centralization! It gets in the way of anarchist individuality which means somebody somewhere is being coerced! To Arms!

Re:Bad Press or Bad Behavior?

[Darinbob]

I'm sorry, when my toilet is spewing sewage and the plumber asks for money to fix it, that's pretty heavy handed coercion!

I don't understand this rabid anti-tax stance. You get something in return for taxes, maybe not as much as we'd like but it's a necessity. If no one is taxed then you have no roads, no sewage, no water, no defense, no social security or medicare, no police, no fire departments, no free schools, etc. Unless you're wealthy of course and just buy your own.

The point of the GSA is to centralize administrative services and save money. Maybe they can be better at it but if you throw them out the deficit gets worse. As for Vegas conferences, these occurred every year in the past as well, and they were damned expensive even when Bush was president, and yet people are treating this like it's suddenly a new thing.

One thing I find amusing is that cities that have outsourced government services and end up paying more in the long run, and some folk actually claim to be happier this way because even though they pay more taxes at least there are fewer direct government employees. The logic is absurd and does not make sense until you understand that politics is just another form of religion.

Re:Bad Press or Bad Behavior?

[Leebert]

Actually, the thinking that's a problem is yours, you sweat the small stuff, then let the big stuff slide by without comment

Did you miss the part where I said: "the Iraq war is a grossly egregious waste of money"?

Go ahead and think yourself consistent, others think you're completely blinding yourself

I don't see how you don't understand the difference between government (money is taken from me at gunpoint without me having any choice in the matter) and private industry (money is given by me to a private party only in the case where the transaction is mutually beneficial). You're darn tootin' in the former case I'm going to care a lot more if the money is wasted.

Re:Bad Press or Bad Behavior?

[bill_mcgonigle]

If no one is taxed then you have no roads, no sewage, no water, no defense, no social security or medicare, no police, no fire departments, no free schools, etc. Unless you're wealthy of course and just buy your own.

There is voluminous scholarship showing historical systems that have used other models and there are even better proposals for systems that achieve all that, and much more, for the same level of spending that the State apparatus.

For just one small example that disproves the rule, I live on a road that was a private turnpike before the State sized control in the 1870's. From a broader perspective, many feel that the notion that we will achieve societal peace and prosperity through violence and extortion is fundamental impossibility (read Gandhi for more on this).

It's a silly notion to think that we've achieved the pinnace of human societal evolution at this particular point in time. The next evolution will be something that somebody has proposed that's not the current status quo. We may or may not have those proposals in-hand in 2012, but to be informed takes independent investigation - these won't be covered in State-controlled schools.

It really is Rome all over again

[mc6809e]

A corrupt government allows one of the most basic necessities of civilization, indoor plumbing, to decay while money is literally spent on wine, clowns, and magicians.

Re:It really is Rome all over again

[geekoid]

You, and many other people, seem to overlook that they where caught, and are being called out on it.

And the GSA does not equal the whole American government. Rome fell because the leader weren't accountable.

People are people and shit happens. The response is important.

Re:It really is Rome all over again

[codepunk]

No they are just the part of the government which is supposed to be the poster child for responsible spending.

Don't worry I cannot think of a single person that is really shocked by any of it.

Re:It really is Rome all over again

[TubeSteak]

I'd argue that roads are slightly more of a basic necessity.
And that's a national priority, not just an accident due to a mistake in one government building.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

There's probably a linux distribution for exploding toilets and no doubt an emacs command to make your toilet explode.

Re:So what?

[ClioCJS]

nerds poop. perhaps even more than average.

Re:So what?

[geekoid]

Because it's technical and explosive?

Rank hypocrisy

[Black Parrot]

this is the same GSA now under fire for pricey Vegas conference flings

Which is more outrageous than it sounds, because it's the GSA that sets the rates that lots of public institutions use to limit how much their employees can spend for hotel rooms, etc.

Re:Rank hypocrisy

[Tailhook]

GSA that sets the rates

There are no rates. There is only pull. If you have the pull you can invoke whatever exception is necessary and reserve whatever hotel room you want, because exceptions are baked into all of those rate schedules and spending rules. You only need enough pull to get away with invoking them.

Neely ran his little fiefdom just like a gangster. Mess with him and he ruined your career. There are thousands just like him at every level of government.

Booze and hookers for the Secret Service. Planet wide GSA jet set. $800k/year city managers. One boondoggle 'green energy' political payoff after another.

I'm looking forward to the US credit crisis. It's been a long time coming and nothing short of an extinction level caldera eruption can stop it now.

Re:Rank hypocrisy

[Gogo0]

That is incorrect, though you are probably just speaking as an ignorant cynic and are already aware of the fact.
I can book any hotel room i want, below or above the area lodging rate (most hotels know what the rate is and lock their govt rate to it). however if i go above that rate, i pay the difference out of my own pocket (and you dont get to keep unused lodging funds). you must provide receipts for lodging, so anything billed to the room that cant be proven to be in direct support of your work (internet, hookers, etc) comes out of your pocket.

on my last TDY i didnt want to stay in the same backwoods hotel the guy with the authorized vehicle was staying at, so i booked another hotel (at the govt rate) and rented a car. that car was not authorized, so i paid for it out of pocket. no way around it.

there is no "pull", and if you lie on your trip report to justify having spent over the allowed rate, that is simply defrauding the government.
other people's jobs rely on you doing it accurately and within reg, so unless you know someone in the RM chain that is willing to lose their job and possibly face jailtime for you, you are bound to the TDY allowances.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

im stealing this from somebody's old post, but "news for turds, stuff that splatters"

For the Plumbers in the Audience

[R3d M3rcury]

After all the jokes about exploding toilets and bashing the GSA, I'm just curious about something. I read the article and came across this:

[Supervisory Property Manager Chris] Litsey put out an announcement that the restrooms had closed and purged the system of compressed air that had been flowing into the building’s water tank. [...] Litsey’s theory was that someone had turned the compressor on manually and “left it unattended.”

Now, I'm not a plumber, nor have I ever played one on television. But why would you have compressed air flowing into the building's water tank? And if this is a good idea, why would it be a manual thing that you would turn on and off?

I'm sure there's a good reason, I'm just curious as to what it is.

Re:For the Plumbers in the Audience

[Anonymous Coward]

In large buildings you need a pump to move the water to the upper floors with adequate pressure. You don't want to have to wait for the pump to start every time you use water, but you don't want it running all the time even when there is no flow.

So you have a system which consists of water-utility -> pump -> pressure-switch -> pressure-tank -> building-pipes. The pressure take is a take with the inlet/outlet on the bottom. The so long as the pressure-switch reads low enough the pump runs and pushes water into the building— if the building isn't using water it accumulates in the tank. The incoming water compresses air in the top of the tank and eventually the pump turns off. When someone uses water the air expands and pushes the water out. Eventually the pump turns back on until the pressure is back to the set point.

The air is very important in all this— water is almost incompressible if the tank only had water in it then as soon as a faucet was turned on the pressure would fall rapidly. So there needs to be a good amount of air in the take to store energy to push the water until the pump switches back on.

Over time the air can escape from this system— either through leaks in the tank or by dissolving in the water. To fix this someone would connect an air compressor to a fill valve at the top of the pressure tank and pump air back into it.

It sounds like in this case they started it and then forgot about it. Eventually all the water was pushed out of the tank and the system filled up with high pressure air. The pump did not activate because the pressure was still high. Because the air is so compressible it was storing a lot of energy in the pipes. When toilets were flushed this energy was released, rocketing out the small amounts of remaining water at high speed and causing things to blow up.

It sounds like they made an additional mistake of trying to refill the system with water with it closed. This would have just caused the water to repressureize the air wherever it was stuck in the system making for more explosive results. To fix this they should have first opened every thing up that they could before turning the water back on and only allowed the system to go back to normal operating pressure once they had most of the air out of it.

Re:For the Plumbers in the Audience

[evilviper]

But why would you have compressed air flowing into the building's water tank?

Water doesn't flow uphill, and water towers are out of fashion. An unpressurized tank at ground level would just barely dribble out of wide-open faucets on the first floor, at best. And finally, water is non-compressible, itself, so air is used as a propellant.

A water tank typically comes with an air-filled bladder taking up most of the volume. When your well pump kicks-in, water flows into the opposite side of the bladder, compressing the air behind the bladder in the process. When the tank is nearly full, the pump shuts off, and the water is under pressure. This means you have significant water pressure, and more importantly, the well pump doesn't have to turn on to maintain pressure, every single time someone uses a tiny amount of water (otherwise it would burn out the motor in short-order).

There are also (cheaper) bladder-less tank designs, where there's no hard barrier strictly keeping the air and water separate, and those are the ones that most often need to have a compressor hooked-up to them and air added, as a routine maintenance step.

http://inspectapedia.com/water/WaterTankAir2.htm

Look-up "Hydro-pneumatic tank" if you want to know more about them. If you ever get off of city water, you'll really, really need to.

http://www.highlandtank.com/PressureVessels/Products.asp?ProdID=Hydropneumatic

Re:So what?

[jbengt]

No air compressor need be connected to the water system in order to get compressed air in the system.
This has a better explanation.

Though very rare, it is not unheard of for flush valve water closets to explode. The flush valves need 20+psig to operate, and most codes allow up to 80 psig. Water is, practically, incompressible, so the release of pressure from a suddenly opening valve will create sudden acceleration that may cause "water hammer" and jerk the pipes some. But air is compressible, and if there is air in the pipes, a sudden release of pressure can cause the air to expand explosively, adding much greater acceleration and velocity to the water entering the fixture, and possibly rupturing the brittle ceramics that the fixture is made of.

In most buildings more than a few stories high, you need a pump to raise the water to the top floors and still have enough pressure. Especially in older buildings, this pump is a constant RPM centrifugal pump, which cannot adjust to the variability in flow rates, especially at times of low usage. So the discharge of the pump fills a bladder tank, which contains water on one side of the bladder and air compressed by the water on the other. The pump does not have to turn on and off all the time, because the bladder tank holds enough water and pressure to keep the water flowing for a minute or two after the pump turns off (much longer in times of low flow) and it takes a minute or two for the tank to fill to full pressure while the pump is running ( longer at times of high demand).

Apparently, in this case, the air got into the system because some part of the system failed, the water pressure dropped, and air got sucked in. It was then pressurized by the normal water pressures.

Not A Problem For Me Anymore...

[IonOtter]

FTA: "I'm afraid to pee..."

I laughed so hard when I read that, I don't have to pee anymore.

Re:So what?

[dudpixel]

explosions are cool

Well, it is spring; what did they expect?

[karlandtanya]

In a few months, I expect the trees will be filled with underwear.

Re:So what?

[nospam007]

There' s a Mythbuster episode about exploding toilets, is that not enough nerdy?

The Hater

[SuperKendall]

It's you who speak of hate. Sadly that seem to be the fate of so many statists these days, as the world they tried to build is finally crumbling as was inevitable for any system that ignores human nature and economics...

Re:So what?

[mcgrew]

Huh? You're a nerd and you don't like blowing shit up? I almost got expelled in the 7th grade for a science project. When toilets explode for no apparent reason, finding out why is good nerdy fun.

Re:"Same coverage"

[bill_mcgonigle]

With reforms in the U.S. insurance industry, we would maintain the better patient treatment the U.S. offers, while also having costs lower.

Shouldn't we be focusing on 'healthcare' instead of 'insurance'?

There are good arguments that the so-called insurance system we have today has driven the cost escalations that bring healthcare out of the reach of most people.