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Federal Court Allows Class-Action Suit Against Apple Over In-App Purchases

suraj.sun writes "An iPhone-owner whose daughter downloaded $200 worth of 'Zombie Toxin' and 'Gems' through in-app purchases on his iPhone has been allowed to pursue a class action suit against Apple for compensation of up to $5m. Garen Meguerian of Pennsylvania launched the class-action case against Apple in April 2011 after he discovered that his nine-year-old daughter had been draining his credit card account through in-app purchases on 'free' games including Zombie Cafe and Treasure Story. This month, Judge Edward J Davila in San Jose District Federal Court has allowed the case to go to trial, rejecting Apple's claim that the case should be dismissed. Meguerian claimed that Apple was unfairly targeting children by allowing games geared at kids to push them to make purchases. He describes games that are free to play but require purchases of virtual goods to progress as 'bait apps' and says they should not be aimed at children."

53 of 279 comments (clear)

  1. Don't you have to enter your password? by mark-t · · Score: 2

    I thought that to confirm any in-app purchase, you had to re-enter your password for your Apple ID.

    Is this not the case with some apps?

    1. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by Elgonn · · Score: 4, Informative

      You do have to enter a password but it does cache it for a short time. So in theory a parent making a purchase and handing an iOS device to a child could enable the child to make purchases at will for a short time.

    2. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You do have to enter a password but it does cache it for a short time. So in theory a parent making a purchase and handing an iOS device to a child could enable the child to make purchases at will for a short time.

      And if $200 is draining your credit card, maybe its time to rethink having an iPhone.

    3. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by am+2k · · Score: 4, Informative

      In practice, the child most likely had the password. Note that you can also disable in-app purchases in the settings (and protect that setting with a different password).

    4. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by Tharsman · · Score: 4, Informative

      iOS does give the parent the ability to set up the phone/ipad/ipod to require password every single transaction without wait window. It also provides a way for you to entirely disable the ability to consume In-App Purchases, so you can rest assured the kid is not asking you for the password for anything but the initial app.

    5. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by Anubis+IV · · Score: 4, Informative

      Prior to the iOS 4.3 update in March 2011, there was a 15-minute grace period after you entered your password where you didn't have to enter it again. Following some complaints that were similar to this plaintiff's, Apple changed it so that there was an option to make passwords mandatory every time, rather than having a grace period. And if you did choose to keep the grace period enabled, they made it so that your first in-app purchase in that grace period would require you to re-enter the password.

      Effectively, this closed the "hole" that the plaintiff's daughter used (well, to be fair, Apple can't fix bad parenting), wherein the parent downloaded an app, entered their password, and the child managed to ring up $200 worth of in-app purchases in 15 minutes or less. The plaintiff here filed suit in April 2011, shortly after the issue came to light in the press and after it had already been fixed by Apple.

    6. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "The plaintiff here filed suit in April 2011, shortly after the issue came to light in the press and after it had already been fixed by Apple."

      If that is the case, then this is nothing more than extortion by the plaintiff. If Apple addressed the issue quickly and effectively then there is no "lawsuit" needed nor warranted, especially if it is class action.

      Additionally, the "father" is not worthy of that title. If he couldn't trust his daughter to not buy "in-app" upgrades, she shouldn't have a friggin iPhone to start with. If it was an accident, then the guy should have made the daughter work off the debt and learn the valuable lesson that nothing is free in life. But rather than deal with the daughter's selfish behavior, he is trying to reward her with a "get rich quick" scheme.

      Douchebags like that need to be humiliated (if that is even possible) into shame for total lack of parental skills.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    7. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Every time this topic comes up I wonder if telephone companies have ever been sued like this over kids racking up huge bills via long-distance and toll numbers.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    8. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by Tough+Love · · Score: 4, Insightful

      maybe its time to rethink having an iPhone

      Best suggestion I've heard so far.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    9. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by pla · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In practice, the child most likely had the password.

      This.

      Look, I normally count as the last one to defend Apple for anything, but seriously?

      Guy gives his daughter a way to rack up bills, she does so, he pleads ignorance. Gimme a frickin' break! "Parenting" means more than buying an expensive pacifier.

      Pay the damned bill, spank the little brat raw, and both of you take a lesson from this.

    10. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by s.petry · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While not entirely without merit, the problem is not so easily dismissed.

      Remember back 20 years ago when a company could not say things that were deceptive and/or false without getting in to trouble? Well, welcome to the real world of today where it's normal to take advantage of people.

      What really happens on the games is that there is no message of anything except for the game asking for a password. Unless you read page 9374 of the TOS and EULA for the game at download time, you would not know that someone was about to sock your account for anything. The game does not have to tell you that it is going to charge your account. It simply asks for a password.

      Companies can tell you that you won something, and when you fill out the form to get the prize they switch your service and charge you money. They could also give you nothing, sell your information to a marketing company for 10c and make sure your text messages eat up your data plan.

      Unfortunately, it's a very dirty world we are in. There is a lot of blame to go around.

      Should the kid be taught a lesson regarding finance and the dangers of scams and scammers? Sure

      but spanked because they got screwed over by an adult that prays on people for a living? Hardly.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    11. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by DRJlaw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "The plaintiff here filed suit in April 2011, shortly after the issue came to light in the press and after it had already been fixed by Apple."

      If that is the case, then this is nothing more than extortion by the plaintiff. If Apple addressed the issue quickly and effectively then there is no "lawsuit" needed nor warranted, especially if it is class action.

      You do realize that you have at least 1-2 years in which to file a suit after you've been injured, so that filing a class action after you discover that you and a bunch of other people were injured is not extortion, but rational and appropriate. Its also far easier to justify a hiring a lawyer to pursue a case where a large number of people have been harmed then to either hire a lawyer to pursue a case worth only $200, or learn how to navigate small claims court on your own.

      Also, define "quickly" and "effectively" -- these sorts of games pretty much existed in the app store from the get-go, and IOS 4.3 was released in March 2011. The iPad was released in April 2010, which ignores all the phones that came before it. Shall we google for the first complaints from iPhone users, or is 11 months sufficiently beyond "quickly" for you?

      Additionally, the "father" is not worthy of that title. If he couldn't trust his daughter to not buy "in-app" upgrades, she shouldn't have a friggin iPhone to start with.

      Screw you. I've bought an iPad for a four year old. Four year olds barely understand the concept of "money," much less what an in app purchase is. Fortunately it was an iPad 2, I'd read about the issue, and I configured the thing to always require a password (as well as to disable in app purchases, although frankly that just makes the times that you want to make them far more painful -- 1 password vs. exit, settings, restrictions, pin, switch, double-home, app, password).

      You want to reward Apple (gatekeeper/reviewer of all, for a healthy 30%) and software developers like Zynga by freeing them from any responsibility to learn their own lesson and modify their own "get rich quick schemes." The parent and child deserve at least some blame, but the experts (i.e., Apple and developers) were being predatory and quite blameworthy. Is Apple's defense at trial going to be "we couldn't possibly foresee this issue since none of us have children"? Apple is all about the user experience, but does anyone other than an idiot, an addict, or a child buy a $99 consumable immediately after buying a "free" game? I'd love to see a demographic study of what goes on here.

      It's irrelevant how much of a technical genius and/or disciplinarian you may be -- the law protects consumers who are average citizens from unconscionable acts, such as where a seller takes advantage of consumers "lack of knowledge, ability, experience, or capacity to a grossly unfair degree." (Use your mad skills to Google the phrase)

      First time iPhone/iPad buyers are not going to have the knowledge or experience to know that their purchase password not only is cached to allow other app store purchases, but cached to allow in app purchases as well. First time iPhone/iPad buyers are not going to that there is an option to turn in-app purchases off. You buy an app for your kid, you hand the iPad to the kid to play the app once it's installed. Not 15 minutes later. You buy a free app, you don't expect progress in the app to essentially require you to buy "a basket of coins" for $99.

      If people were such geniuses, then the default configuration would be require passwords to be entered immediately, and possibly to delve into the settings to enable in-app purchases. That's the more secure and fail safe configuration, after all. Why is that not the default? Because your average person is not a genius, does not have time to read a user manual, and learns by use and experiance. If they become annoyed, they might look for setting to chang

    12. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by JonySuede · · Score: 4, Funny

      what is wrong with a good spanking on your wife when she is a little brat ?

      --
      Jehovah be praised, Oracle was not selected
    13. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by hairyfeet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But that don't change the fact they shouldn't have been pushing these apps for kids. Do they think little Suzy has her own CC? If adults want to buy invisible property in some game? More power to 'em I say, I have a boy that pays $15 a month to be a fricking Bounty Hunter in that new Star Wars MMO. But these things are aimed at little kids and that just isn't right. if you want to sell them a game? Fine and dandy but the whole "bait apps" description sounds pretty right on to me. And if Apple wants to push iOS to the masses then maybe they should be a little more careful at what's aimed at kids huh?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    14. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 4, Funny

      screwed over by an adult that prays

      Come on, Catholic priests have nothing to do with this particular instance of abuse.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    15. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by bjwest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And if $200 is draining your credit card, maybe its time to rethink having an iPhone.

      He said draiing, not maxing out. You can drain a swiming pool with a 1/4" tube. It may take a while, but it's still draining.

      --

      --- Keep the choice with the user..
    16. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by Kalriath · · Score: 2

      What really happens on the games is that there is no message of anything except for the game asking for a password. Unless you read page 9374 of the TOS and EULA for the game at download time, you would not know that someone was about to sock your account for anything. The game does not have to tell you that it is going to charge your account. It simply asks for a password.

      Uh, yes - they do.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    17. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by rtb61 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Have you no concept of adults, actual grown skilled professionals scamming children for their pocket, a beating is required but you are utterly wrong about the target.

      This is no excuse adults setting out purposely to scam children. Reality here due to the cost of purchases credit card details should be required to be entered every time with emphasis on the amount of money being spent. Not euphemisms, buy bullshit berries with pretend credits (only those pretend credits are really pretend they are direct deductions from your parents credit card and in turn the loss of all your pocket money).

      This is sick stuff, professional stealing children's lollipops in real life. It is mind boggling, can you imagine the meetings were psychologists, accounts, coders get togethor to create games to scam the pocket money from ten year olds. Each plotting more enticing, psychological manipulations to get the kids to press the pocket money wiping out button. "Yeah add that, that'll suck in the little rats","Oh Yeah, that'll get the little beggars competing","We need that to feed the little suckers egos so they spend big","We all gonna get rich scamming dumb kids pocket money, what a bunch of suckers, yuck, yuck ".

      Seriously wake the fuck up to yourself, "ADULTS SCAMMING CHILDREN'S POCKET MONEY", what the fuck is the matter with you.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    18. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by demonlapin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It does so... now. It didn't in the past, which is presumably when this occurred.

    19. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by demonlapin · · Score: 2

      Why didn't you just charge $2 for the app and include one free in-app purchase of your choice?

    20. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Search "highest grossing apps" and look for all the "free" apps in the highest grossing category. It's insane. Why would so many people buy free pay-to-play games? I've accidentally loaded some up, and always immediately delete them when I realize what they are. There should be an easy way in settings to ban all in-ap purchases (not a new password, but just flat ban them), or to identify the in-ap enabled games on the ap browser so you'll never accidentally get one because you didn' read all the reviews and release notes (though they seem to be getting better about explicitly identifying them in the description, you could still end up buying based solely on the picture, so it should have "In App Purchase" across the image of the game or something.

    21. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 2

      Well, the first reason, of course, is you sue the people with money. Apple has lots of it.

      The second reason is that Apple profited from it. Remember that, as the agent, Apple collects 30% of In-App purchase money. So, of that $200, Apple made $60. An analogy: I steal your iPhone and sell it to a pawnbroker for $50. The Pawnbroker has a good reason to believe that this is stolen merchandise, but does nothing to investigate it and just turns around and sells it to someone for $75. The pawnbroker is now in trouble because he is purchasing stolen merchandise. So the questions would be, (a) is it reasonable to say this App was a "scam" and (b) should Apple have recognized this and refused to accept the App?

      The third reason is that Apple claims that it's review system protects it's customers from scams and ensures quality software. If this is App is a "scam," and that's debatable, then Apple's review system should not have allowed it. See, you can't have it both ways by claiming that you're protecting customers and then, when the customer is scammed, say, "Gosh, how were we supposed to know?" I think this is one reason why Google's App Store accepts everything and only removes things when there's an issue. Google doesn't claim that they will keep the scam apps away--only that they will do something afterwards. You're still responsible.

      In this case, though, I have no doubts that Reason #1 is firmly in play.

    22. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by dudpixel · · Score: 2

      How many iphone users even know what an in-app purchase is?

      There are probably many parents out there who bought their kids an iphone and have no idea what is possible with it.

      I know one such parent who bought their daughter an ipod touch, only to find that in order to use the app store you need to enter your credit card details. She was shocked, but that's the rules.

      I can see how this could happen - I wonder if Apple could do a bit more to inform users of things like this? They may already do this - I'm not sure.

      I definitely dont like the idea of apps featuring in-app purchases being targeted at children - that's wrong. I even hate ads in apps targeted at children. Or any ads targeted at children for that matter.

      --
      This seemed like a reasonable sig at the time.
    23. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by dudpixel · · Score: 2

      You wanna know something?

      Being a parent is damn hard. Being a good parent is nigh on impossible (depends who is rating you - if its your kids, good luck).

      This guy made a mistake and you're jumping on him. You dont know what he did in disciplining his daughter. But should he not try to get his money back if he felt it was the right thing to do (not saying it was)?

      How many parents know that the iphone they bought for their child allows such a thing as in-app purchases? and that in many cases the child knows more about how to use the phone than their parent.

      Sure you can set up parental controls but I know plenty of people who wouldn't know where to start.

      And yes, ignorance is not an excuse, but that's where I say this was just a big mistake on the part of the parent and he learnt the hard way.

      I would exercise a little bit of caution before jumping to conclusions and labelling this guy a "bad parent". Seriously, all parents are "bad" parents sometimes. Its part of being human.

      --
      This seemed like a reasonable sig at the time.
    24. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by chrismcb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What really happens on the games is that there is no message of anything except for the game asking for a password.

      Do you have any proof of this
      I don't know how this particular game works (although one of TFA implies it works the way most do) but most games tell you that you are about to spend real money, and they tell you how much you are going to spend.
      I'm not sure that Apple is at fault here, and I think the parents need to be careful when giving the password to children. But you can't expect a child to know that when they click on "Bushel of Berries $99.99" to know they are actually spending $99.99 in hard money, and not game money. Especially since a lot of these games have game money you already spend.

    25. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      It says "smurf" it says "free", so you download it, and had it to your child to play. It's been blessed by Apple for the walled garden safe, and is "free" so there shouldn't be an issue. But then you come to find out that the free app cost you $2000. And at the time this became an issue, there was no way to stop that behavior, short of a cooldown period of 15 minutes of no-phone for the kids after every purchase.

    26. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

      If an adult wants to buy something in game? more power to 'em, its just the whole "aiming at kids" thing that bothers me. With little kids they don't have a clue about how much something really costs, all they know is they keep losing and this item gives them more (insert power, gold, magic, etc) so its easy to get a little kid to click on something like that. That's why we call them kids and not midgets.

      But as long as its aimed at adults and doesn't screw the game (like you I stay away from these "free to play but buy items" to do anything) style games but what an adult wants to do with their money is their business. while i don't buy those stupid phone games i have been known to buy some DLC for my PC games if its cheap and fun, like the "Tuk Tuk Boom Boom" in Just Cause 2? Meh it was a buck with 4 other vehicles and who don't like driving a go cart with a tank gun mounted on top?

      But looking at the ones aimed at kids too many of them are pretty much "wallet raper 2000" where you let them play a bit then nickel and dime the living hell out of them. like I said if an adult wants to be a moron? oh well. But you shouldn't have to lock everything down just so the kid can play a fricking game!

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    27. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by fadir · · Score: 2

      There is a difference between "getting money back" and starting a class action suit for 5m.

      Giving your little daughter an iPhone with the password to the corresponding account is wrong on so many levels that there shouldn't even be a question wether this is bad parenting or not. I do not give my 3 years old son a sharp kitchen knife either. That's just common sense ... which apparently isn't so common as it seems.

      If he wants his money back he could simply file for a charge back and that's it. He wants to make a profit off it - and that's something that I despise.

    28. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by macs4all · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The game does not have to tell you that it is going to charge your account. It simply asks for a password.

      1. I have never seen an iOS in-app purchase confirm dialog that wasn't quite explicit about charges.

      2. Perhaps this is a chance for the child to learn that you don't just enter your password without thinking.

      3. Perhaps this is a chance for the parent to learn a little about iOS security; which, if the parent had bothered to become familiar with their device, has completely adequate security measures to avoid this sort of thing, including, but certainly not limited to, restricting in-app purchases, and even adjusting the "password timeout".

      At some point, the parent has to act like a responsible adult, and not just blame poor parenting and willful ignorance on a company who has instituted measures to prevent children from racking up bills on the parent's credit card.

      This lawsuit is entirely frivolous. If this had happened on Android, slashdotters would have said "Well, the app said it wanted permissions to allow in-app purchases when it installed..." or some such.

      More Slashdot Click-bait. Bad Slashdot! Bad! No, No, No!

    29. Re:Don't you have to enter your password? by macs4all · · Score: 3, Informative

      It does so... now. It didn't in the past, which is presumably when this occurred.

      How far back? iOS has had Parental Restrictions on In-App Purchases nearly from the beginning.

      iOS 3.0 introduced In-App Purchases. These still required a Password, but there might have been no other "Restriction".

      iOS 3.1 introduced In-App Purchase Restrictions. (See pg. 146 of the user manual PDF).

      Apple released iOS 3.0 on June 17, 2009. iOS 3.1 (with had the in-app purchase restrictions) debuted on September 9, 2009. So, we're talking about THREE MONTHS, TOPS that Parents ONLY had the ability to hide their iOS Password from their kids. Hell, Apple even allows a less-draconian option called "iTunes Allowance", which allows you, THE PARENT, to teach fiscal responsibility by allowing LIMITED iTunes purchases (there are also "content" restrictions to control this further).

      Honestly, I really don't see how Apple could have been more responsible. They identified that perhaps some additional controls would be a good thing (over and above a Parent simply NOT GIVING THEIR PASSWORD OUT), and had a solution in PARENT'S hands in under three months. I think that is pretty damned good!

  2. iCoupons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's what most people will get - coupons for future app purchases. The lawyers, of course will get plenty of cash.

  3. I don't understand the case... by Tharsman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Apple is not the one "selling" the apps and then charging with IAP, the software developers are.

    It also happens in Facebook, and desktop, heck.... Valve has been doing it for a while with Team Fortress 2.

    So why go after Apple?

    Don't take me wrong, I really hope this case goes somewhere. I hate the Free2Play model where they take advantage of ignorant kids or people with compulsive behaviors. I just feel this lawsuit is miss-directed, Zynga and it's peers are the ones that should be targeted.

    I will not oppose, though, if Apple decides or is forced to remove "consumable" IAP from the app store, or force apps that require them to charge an up-front fee that removes the visibility advantage these pocket predators have by being free up-front.

    1. Re:I don't understand the case... by KPU · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So why go after Apple?

      If there's a problem with a walled garden, blame the gardener. Otherwise, don't put a wall up in the first place.

    2. Re:I don't understand the case... by Tough+Love · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And what Apple is accused of doing is "allowing games geared at kids to push them to make purchases." Apple is no common carrier, Apple exercises control over every app sold through its store. And is therefore responsible for the app, including any immoral, unethical or downright illegal inducement of children to enter into financial transactions.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    3. Re:I don't understand the case... by MrShaggy · · Score: 2

      Do your parents moniter your internet usage?

      Because responisible don't look over the kids shoulder 24/7. They allow the kids to be trusted with something.

      --
      I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them.
    4. Re:I don't understand the case... by Fnord666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, given that the walled garden has controls that stop someone getting at the tools, and have separate controls that prevent purchases in the first place (parental controls on iOS devices, password to AppleID needed to make purchases in the first place) then I'm not sure what the problem is?

      That Apple didn't tell this guy he should have maybe enabled parental controls for in app/any purchases? That maybe he shouldn't have linked his credit card to the Apple ID his kid uses?

      How is this different to some guy suing Mastercard because his kid ran up a giant bill during a spending spree if you have authorised him to make purchases on your account with no limit?

      As has been pointed out numerous times in other replies, this occurred before Apple added any of that functionality to iOS. At the time this happened, there was a 15 minute grace period after entering your password where it was not required again. There wasn't a way to turn that off. The best you could do was log out of the app store after the app downloaded and installed. That assumed you were aware of the issue in the first place. While you and I are aware of the issue, we are not your typical iPod owner either.

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    5. Re:I don't understand the case... by chrb · · Score: 4, Informative

      How is this different to some guy suing Mastercard because his kid ran up a giant bill during a spending spree if you have authorised him to make purchases on your account with no limit?

      Because, in this case, it appears he didn't authorize his kid to make such purchases with no limit. As such use was not authorized, it may constitute fraud, and the plaintiff could argue that there are local laws which apply in dealing with the fraud. The fact that Apple has already changed the way authorization is done indicates the plaintiffs may have a case for historical purchases. Also, there are consumer protection laws in many places that expressly prohibit marketing premium rate phone services to children. If California has such laws, and if the plantiffs can convince the court that said laws apply to in-app purchases and that the in-app product was marketed to children, then they have a case.

      Many people are going to think that this is black and white, and say that this is solely the parents responsibility, but that is not what the law says. If you trick a parent into extending their credit liability to a child, and then convince the child to transfer ownership of, say, the value of the family house, clearly this is not going to be legal. It is not black and white, you can not use the actions of a minor to unreasonably deprive an adult of their property, even if you have a contract that says you can.

    6. Re:I don't understand the case... by jo_ham · · Score: 2

      The best you could do was log out of the app store after the app downloaded and installed.

      No, the best you could do was not link your credit card to an Apple ID that is on the device your kid uses. There has never been anything stopping you from using iTunes gift cards for running an account.

      Essentially if the guy was ignorant of how the iOS device was treating his CC credentials then it's his own fault - it *was* an insecure system that had too much convenience built into it with that time window (hence all the changes in response to that). Not researching or experimenting with the device before linking it to a no-limit credit card is not smart though.

      Given that all you need is the apple ID and the password to spend, I only charge my Apple ID up with gift cards for that very reason. Even if someone guesses my password (unlikely) or steals it from some DB (again, unlikely but look at Sony), the most I'll lose is whatever was in the account at the time.

    7. Re:I don't understand the case... by mug+funky · · Score: 2

      you conclude with an argument identical to the one i just asked for backup facts on!

      learn to logic...

      plus, i take it you are childless. that's fine, all the more time (and money) to mess with trinkets and gadgets. yes, i am being patronizing. my point here, is once you have a baby, just try keeping your phone away from them. i dare you. see if you can achieve anything at all without taking your eyes off them, because as soon as you do, they'll be playing with your stuff. why is that? because they see you playing with it and immediately think it must be worth playing with. my 10 month old had 2 phones on him this evening. one in his mouth and one in his hand, being hit against the floor. it's a good thing they're made somewhat water resistant...

      and an additional thing. the iTunes music store puts up trailers for movies in all classifications that it allows, but requires that the trailers meet their arbitrary "G" rating guidelines. things like no blood, no dead bodies, etc.

      so they're effectively advertising up to R rated (i'm talking Australian R 18+) content to their entire audience (the "G" crowd certainly includes children). i'm not sure what the story is with that. limiting liability or pushing adult content on children? it can be seen both ways. considering you need an account to buy things, it seems odd that they couldn't just show age appropriate trailers.

      also, (and i will be modded down for this, though it's a valid point) one thing i really don't understand, is why on a board like /. where people are constantly up in arms about big corporations pissing on everyone, do so many people tirelessly defend one of the world's biggest corporations? a company has no morals, just like a car has no legs - it doesn't need them. it's not a value judgement, just a statement of fact. when there's a profit motive, why would a company act in such a way as to not maximize it to the full extent of the law?

  4. Re:$5m fir $200? by fafaforza · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Don't you get it? He's standing up for all the parents in the US that were fleeced of tens of dollars. Learn the options of the device and set limits? It shouldn't be my responsibility to control my child.

  5. Re:$5m fir $200? by Nidi62 · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's class damages, not that he incurred a $5million damage. If Apple takes even 1% of the revenue off in-app purchases, then they've made far more than $5 million anyway.

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
  6. The parent is responsible by agm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He describes games that are free to play but require purchases of virtual goods to progress as 'bait apps' and says they should not be aimed at children."

    I agree completely. However, I think it's a parent's responsibility to ensure apps their children use are suitable. If this parent did not do this then that's their fault. I am very conscious of what apps my children use and I vet them all.

    Apple is not responsible for what your children do - you are.

    1. Re:The parent is responsible by MarkGriz · · Score: 2

      Well, in this case, it appears the parent is *irresponsible*

      --
      Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
    2. Re:The parent is responsible by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 2

      I am very conscious of what apps my children use and I vet them all.

      So, let me get this straight. If your daughter wanted to play some game, you would buy it, download it, and play it a few dozen times before letting her even come near it? Or would you probably just check out the description and screen shots in the App Store and figure, "Yeah, looks okay."

      The point is that the description didn't say anything about In-App purchases. The price of the game was marked as "Free." It's a reasonable assumption that he's not going to have pay anything more for the game.

      Don't get me wrong--the whole "Class Action Lawsuit" thing is pure BS. And I believe Apple has made changes to solve this "problem." I believe Apple may have reimbursed him for his charges. So why bother with the lawsuit other than to get money?

    3. Re:The parent is responsible by jrumney · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't get me wrong--the whole "Class Action Lawsuit" thing is pure BS. And I believe Apple has made changes to solve this "problem." I believe Apple may have reimbursed him for his charges. So why bother with the lawsuit other than to get money?

      The class action is for parents who suffered losses before Apple made the changes. But as a parent, I would argue that Apple has not sufficiently solved the problem. In-app purchases do not belong in games targeted at young children. These apps should not be allowed on the App Store. Perhaps he is going forward with the lawsuit despite being reimbursed personally because Apple are still allowing young children to be targetted in this way, and the default setup of an iDevice still allows unlimited purchases to be made for 15 minutes after a parent enters their iTunes password without warning them of this.

    4. Re:The parent is responsible by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 2

      If an app has-in app purchases this is mentioned in the app store along with the app description.

      Not at the time--that's what the whole thing is about--there was no way for the parent to know this.

      I don't think that's a reasonable assumption. A lot of apps have no cover charge and yet you can buy things inside the app.

      Well, again, at the time this wasn't mentioned. But I would also argue that if you're not much of a game player, you wouldn't know this.

  7. Pretty low by Grayhand · · Score: 2

    This was an obvious case of targeting children. It reminds me of an old case with Soupy Sales asking kids to send him green pieces of paper from their parent's wallets. It was meant as a joke but he got in a lot of trouble. Snopes has a great quote on this subject. I can't copy the paragraph but it starts out "It's easy for those .........."Captain Midnight". The paragraph does an excellent job of stating how corporations have always preyed on children. http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/soupy1.asp

  8. Showing my age.... by Cazekiel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think the biggest problem isn't the idea that apps created to get money through upgrades exist, but the fact that a nine-year old is given the powers of an expensive phone without the parents having a clue as to what she's doing on it is eyebrow-raising. Am I the only one bugged out when I see middle-schoolers having phones and other gadgets that are worth more than my car? Criminy, my mom wouldn't let me have a phone in my room on the main home line, never mind my OWN phone number.

    And as if she didn't know she was doing wrong. Even if a child is immature in the areas of reasoning, I'm assuming any parent here would punish their kid if they found them digging into their wallet to steal cash. How is this any different? You put a LOCK on that shit, wherein any purchases made on your child's phone has to be approved by an adult first. I'm sure there's a method/service that does that. I almost never take the side of corporations like Apple, but in this case, I say the kid is grounded for six months, and double the chores in the house without an allowance. They had their fun, underhandedly. Time for parents to take responsibility for the stuff they buy their kids, especially if they don't intrinsically NEED it to begin with.

    --
    You want to know how to help your kids? LEAVE THEM THE F*&K ALONE. --George Carlin
  9. Re:Three Hands by digitallife · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There's a very simple reason developers are tending towards 'freemium' games: it makes more money (at least on ios). Let's be honest, as much as a developer may love making an app, if they are to invest the time and resources required to make it good, they need to get paid. So their options are ad supported, which often doesn't pay very well, a non-free app, which often won't get many downloads (unless you're a marketing guru), or IAP. IAP have the benefit of allowing a free app which gets lots of downloads, the possibility of ad generated revenue that can be disabled for a fee if the user wants, and the option for the USER to determine how much they want to give. It's (theoretically) win/win for developer and customer.

    However, the kids apps are absolutely horrible. The apps themselves are usually quick hack jobs with some manipulative child psychology tricks in them. Adults often hate them and can't stand them, but the kids love them and beg and cry to get them. Then they dress up IAP in pretty buttons and what not so every thing the kid clicks on brings up a purchase window and the kid bugs the heck out of the parents to fix it... One slip on the parents part and they accidentally make a purchase.

    Honestly, they need to go after the lecherous developers that make that trash, rather than ask apple to censor (yet more) apps from the app store.

  10. Welcome to the Garden by davevr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If Apple (or Disneyland, or anyone else) wants to have a walled garden where you have to play by their rules to get in there, then they have to be liable for what people find there. If you slip on the wet sidewalk at Disneyland that will be totally different than if you do that outside the park. By requiring developers to pass a stringent test and have each app approved, they are explicitly saying they approve of these sorts of apps. In fact, they are even approving that these apps can go in the children's section.

    That is why Apple is vulnerable here but Android is not. Android doesn't force developers to do anything special. There is no endorsement, so no liability.

    In terms of the settings thing, that is all well and good. But the fact is that Apple is making huge profits from parents who are buying iPods and iPads specifically because Apple has presented their walled garden as a safe place. Remember the famous quote from Steve Jobs to the blogger, saying that Apple is free from crap and if you want porn or viruses, you should go to Android? Well, the chickens have come home.

    Any normal standard would find the business practice of these apps unethical anyway. Have you ever "played" one? This is not "my kid purchased a new champion in League of Legend by accident". These apps are specifically designed to be deceptive and manipulative for children.

    1. Re:Welcome to the Garden by Truedat · · Score: 2

      If Apple (or Disneyland, or anyone else) wants to have a walled garden where you have to play by their rules to get in there, then they have to be liable for what people find there. If you slip on the wet sidewalk at Disneyland that will be totally different than if you do that outside the park

      Analogies should be used as starting points for insight to the real world, otherwise they prove nothing, except within the closed world of the analogy itself. For example we might talk about the dangers of leaning out of rides despite instructions not to. Or walking around the park with your wallet sticking out of your back pocket. Or not keeping an eye on your children etc. Seriously you can argue _anything_ for or against Apple by remaining within the confines of the analogy.

      So, going back to the real world, quite clearly Apple got it wrong with the original password behavior - I say clearly because they changed that behavior as a result. Therefore the lawsuit has some merit to it. But declaring rather dramatically that chickens have come home to roost over this (fixed) problem, shows that you are more interested in validating your emotional commitment to Android than you are in analysing the situation.

      As for Android and the downstream handset manufacturers somehow being legally bulletproof from lawsuits, well I think you underestimate the creativity of lawyers. Give it time.

  11. Re:clueless harried parents by mvdwege · · Score: 2

    You know, when marketing and the fanbois keep impressing on us that the iDevices are so much fun and so easy and so, you know, educational that we should give them out to children, then it is rather hypocritical to turn around at the first sign of trouble and tell the parents that, no, actually, it isn't that easy.

    --
    "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  12. Re:clueless harried parents by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2

    It's interesting that you comment on the fact that kids can't be supervised 100% by their parents, and yet here we are discussing a story where essentially Apple is being expected to supervise the kid for the parent... 100% of the time.