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Canadian Bureacracy Can't Answer Simple Question: What's This Study With NASA?
Saint Aardvark writes "It seemed like a pretty simple question about a pretty cool topic: an Ottawa newspaper wanted to ask Canada's National Research Council about a joint study with NASA on tracking falling snow in Canada. Conventional radar can see where it's falling, but not the amount — so NASA, in collaboration with the NRC, Environment Canada and a few universities, arranged flights through falling snow to analyse readings with different instruments. But when they contacted the NRC to get the Canadian angle, "it took a small army of staffers— 11 of them by our count — to decide how to answer, and dozens of emails back and forth to circulate the Citizen's request, discuss its motivation, develop their response, and "massage" its text." No interview was given: "I am not convinced we need an interview. A few lines are fine. Please let me see them first," says one civil servant in the NRC emails obtained by the newspaper under the Access to Information act. By the time the NRC finally sorted out a boring, technical response, the newspaper had already called up a NASA scientist and got all the info they asked for; it took about 15 minutes."
historically the alternative is Somalia.
to Ottawa.
The Prime Ministers office is obsessed with US-style 'controlling the message'. No public statement may be made by anyone employed by the government without approval of a political officer. This has even recently been extended to the RCMP, and has affected publicly funded science for a long time. No information from our government is free of political meddling and spin designed to further the agenda of the Conservative party - which cares about only one thing: Being re-elected forever.
Sadly this seems to work and they are resisting scandals that would normally fall a government (eg giving false information to the public is typically certain death for a government in Canada). These people don't respect our democracy or the need for free information from the government, they don't deserve to run our country, but we are stuck with them for the foreseeable future, and it is unlikely any future government will dismantle all this information control infrastructure. :(
There is no mystery here. The Harper government has been suppressing any discussion of environment and climate topics that even come anywhere near to talking about climate change. Scientists and agencies are legitimately afraid for their funding and their jobs.
I'm sure there are going to be dozens posts about the evil conservative government and how they have all their ministries scared to say anything about anything. However, and despite all the cool stuff that the NRC does (like 3d scanners, heated concrete, etc), they do do a lot of top secret research. I'm not surprised that a request involving a foreign government organization was met with a bureaucratic response.
Here is a quick list of some of their best and most important work. Probably a much more interesting article than the fishing expedition of the Ottawa Citizen.
I am not interested in articles about life extension advancements.
The Prime Ministers office is obsessed with US-style 'controlling the message'. No public statement may be made by anyone employed by the government without approval of a political officer. This has even recently been extended to the RCMP, and has affected publicly funded science for a long time. No information from our government is free of political meddling and spin designed to further the agenda of the Conservative party - which cares about only one thing: Being re-elected forever.
Sadly this seems to work and they are resisting scandals that would normally fall a government (eg giving false information to the public is typically certain death for a government in Canada). These people don't respect our democracy or the need for free information from the government, they don't deserve to run our country, but we are stuck with them for the foreseeable future, and it is unlikely any future government will dismantle all this information control infrastructure. :(
Practice snowjob.
Even the simplest things can be told incorrectly, and even the smallest error can get picked up by the media and blown out of proportion to either discredit the institute or spread ignorance. Communication is not as obvious as just telling what you are working on.
Before people go off on a ridiculous tangent about the evil government, please read the emails. These are PR and Marketing people more concerned about the promotion of their agency and credit rather than divulging politically or scientifically sensitive information.
and a "Tech" worker who knows that many such jobs are subsidized, I'm pretty sure the smoke screen is to prevent people from seeing how little actual value is generated per dollar amount. This is fine, our Western social model says everyone must "work", so we put on shows for each other and call it "work". The alternative? Start BENEFITING from all this technology, energy and "productivity" we keep hearing about and reduce working hours, reduce the number of people who actually need or want to work. But this is heresy.
"Is there someone else up there we can talk to?"
make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
Oh, right. Not allowed unless approved by the control freaks we have at the top of the political system at the moment.
I think it's time for ordinary Canadian citizens (and anyone else in the world that wants to help) to start firing off enough requests to Canadian government scientific institutions that we can eventually overwhelm the pinheads in charge of "messaging" and they let us speak with the people doing the work. We used to be able to do that easily, but it has been getting worse and worse over the years. It has achieved truly ridiculous levels of obfuscation with the current government. Scientists should be allowed to speak their minds on scientific matters of public concern. It's good research being paid for with OUR tax dollars. Stop trying to hide it from us for the sake of "controlling the message". If you want to save money, fire the expensive idiots in charge of the "messaging". Scientists are quite capable of delivering a useful message if you let them do their jobs.
If you ever wonder why scientific budgets in Canada continue to decline in terms of money available for research and scientific staff, but the "upper management" and "PR people" staff get bigger and bigger to manage the smaller pool of scientists, this is the answer. These people have nothing to do all day but spin the story to align with the politics of the day.
It probably has something to do with Canada's international affairs restrictions on the press and the sense of heightened security after it was discovered (immediately post 9-11) how easily terrorists could attack America through Canada's huger borders and therefore more lax security.
That hardly makes it "security theatre". I think it's sort of fancy and maybe looks unnecessary in this context, but why ask for conessions where security is concerned? It's not like they strip-searched the press or had them trailed for asking questions. They appear to have been following the protocols of some pre-arranged agreement between the two national governments concerning international affairs between agencies, with a mind toward protecting America from evil people who would seek to take advantage of Canada's breathtaking liberalism and wide country.
I mean, the way I see it, the behaviour of the withholding organization was perhaps overdrawn and maybe on purpose but not without its rewards to America. Maybe something else happened where some people would have liked to have been allowed to be free-er with the press and couldn't because of some restriction and they decided to be obtusely contrite through adhering strictly to the protocols. So saying, that's what people do when they get tired of something, and the best way to keep them from feeling too tired is to pay them more. I'd have to say that if Canadians aren't getting some small but respectable amount of kickback or income for being a vanguard of the national security of the USA, then maybe they should.
"Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
Canadian government bureaucracies are a nightmare. About seven years ago I was working on a project where we needed access to some government data under similar circumstances. It ended up being a lot quicker going through the US State Department to request the data from the US Army Corps of Engineers than it was to get it from the Canadian government.
For all of you bashing Harper and his politicized government, non-profits and the rest of Canada, all I have to say is we got it right. Eleven or twelve people are working for the government rather than collecting Employment Insurance. Just think how many unemployed could be working in the states if Agencies such as NASA, used the same amount of manpower to answer questions like these. I am sure that would solve the economic slowdown we have been having.
If they don't know what you're doing, they don't know what you're doing wrong.
-Sir Humphrey
Yes, science should be (and is) open. Journalists are pretty bad at this though - having experienced first hand a journalist conducting an interview purporting to cover the science, but in fact printing a misleading collage of old and out-of-context quotes about a side issue, I'm not sure I'm all that enthusiastic to talk to our friends in the press again. I'll happily explain what I do to people who are interested, give tours to the public, and I'm happy to collaborate with a journalist on a publicly-accessible article. But have my words twisted and placed out of context? I'm not sure I want to play that game.
You wonder why their government might panic at anything that even remotely hints as being climate-related? 100 billion reasons.
Please help metamoderate.
The NASA scientist will probably get in trouble for talking to the press without political supervision.
Meanwhile the Canadian bureaucrats will have their asses sufficiently covered.
The problem of course is that the U.S. bureaucrats need to be better educated. Something that 5-6 seminars in Hawaii won't cure.
After which I'm sure that we can get slower answers.
As a Canadian I can say that this is expected response from any government agency in Canada. You will never get a straight answer. Ever. And Harper is not to blame, sadly it's just cultural. People wonder why labor efficiency in Canada is low compared to the US and Europe -- it's because nobody can ever get an answer when they have some obstacle to resolve. You always get returned a few times because you filled out something "wrong", or it's another department responsible for what you want (which then sends you back), etc. The only thing surprising is that a Canadian newspaper from Ottawa finds this whole thing surprising -- they should be expecting it.
"Top Secret"
I presume the NASA scientist was reprimanded for giving a straight answer without going through the press office?
Sounds like the bureaucracy did it's job perfectly.
That's not surprising at all.
Remember Palin dissing 'fruit fly' research. It's stupid, right? Or some other candidate laughing about volcano research (right before the Eyjafjallajokull eruption).
It's no wonder that scientists don't wish to give extra ammunition to this crowd by poorly worded answers.
When they called the NRC, they got hold of a bunch of bureaucrats who are only interested in CYAP (covering your ass with paper). When they called NASA, they got a scientist/engineer who only knows how to deal with reality/truth. Bureaucrats are gatekeepers. Scientists are enablers. What a profound difference between the two species of animal!
Without knowing the chain they went through with NASA, it isn't really fair to compare the two experiences.
Let's ignore the fact that the journalist decided to call the NRC at the very last minute for a bit of extra information, and look at what happened in the communication internally at the NRC.
The NRC media arm was called, and unless the person at NRC in charge of that initial contact happens to know EXACTLY who to ask, there will invariably a flurry of back and forth communication internally, just as you see in the article.
When you look through the emails (btw, I hate it when you are given a data dump like that - it's close to impossible to figure out where one email ends and another begins), you find that the original call is on March 1st at 09:30
At 11:39 Manya Chadwick has an answer to the journalist, that needs to be signed off on.
That's after 2 hours and 9 minutes. Over email. In my book that's a fantastic turn-around time. Keep in mind that it is extremely unlikely that the involved parties are ignoring everything else on their plate.
Then at 14:03, Jonathan Ward has signed off on the text. That's 2 hours 24 minutes later. Again, for email, that's a fantastic turn-around time.
And at 15:10 Tom Spears is sent his initial answer. That's 6 hours, 12 minutes.
At 16:38 Tom Spears is given an extra update to the lines, pointing out that the NRC forgot to credit their partner CSA.
At 09:47 on March 2nd Tom Spears writes back: "Thanks, but when NRC won't speak to me I can't guarantee to write the story the way you want it.". (Seriously? Less than an hour after he gets his answer, they send a tiny update because THEY MADE A MISTAKE, and he decides to be snarky like that?)
The reporter didn't even bother to write back with a follow-up question or anything after he received the answer (only a "RECEIVED" message at 15:42). He didn't bother to ask if he could call someone or get a quick callback for anything.
---
Let's go back to the question asked (technically no question is asked):
Now - since he's talking to Media Relations, he's obviously not going to be directly transferred to someone with intimate knowledge. That's just extremely unlikely to happen, unless (as I mentioned before) the person at NRC in charge of that initial contact happens to know EXACTLY who to ask.
The inquiry, as it's written, is more along the lines of "I'd just like to get a feel for NRC's involvement in the project" (a question that is answered in the mail he received) than "Why do you want to study snow?", as the journalist says the hoped-for interview would have asked.
My question is - what hoped-for interview? The initial inquiry was for information on NRC's involvement.
Now - considering that he received the initial answer at 15:10, there would have been PLENTY of time for him to spend five minutes to compose an email along the lines of:
But no. Aparently it is not in a journalist's scope of work to ask followup questions. Or at least not Mr. Tom Spears's type of journalism. I mean - imagine the extra work it would take him to add those extra 243 characters to his email. I mean - that's almost two entire Twitter messages! The horror.
---
So - what about the NASA thing?
Note that "We phoned a NASA scie
Someone should add this to the summary.
Welcome to the Canada run by Stephen Harper - where nothing, even simple answers to simple questions, can be done without a mile of red tape and "conservative messaging."
It's not to provide information upon request but to prevent you, as much as possible, from getting answers without being bluntly told no.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
Dammit, I was gonna joke about how that was only 85 billion American reasons, but right now the Canadian dollar is at almost perfect parity with the US dollar.
Damn you, reality.
There is the thing and there is the management of the thing.
When the thing itself is the management of the thing then an unstoppable cycle is created. It will eventually consume the human race.
Equine Mammals Are Considerably Smaller
I have yet to see any gourmet/microbrew from Canada. Surely you're not referring to some LaBatt's or Molson- type "product", are you?
Not all of us are gagging down Budweiser.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
That's not oil, its high-pressure asphalt, "liquified" with added solvent, but the pipeline is designed for lower pressure oil, and they want to run it alongside the fastest-flowing river in British Columbia, since the Kalamazoo was too sluggish to promote a truly world-class catastrophe. Canada is aiming to take their rightful place in the headlines.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
Are you serious?
http://www.bigrockbeer.com/
http://www.amsterdambeer.com/
http://www.sleeman.ca/
Ah, fuck it, just check out the Beer Store - http://www.thebeerstore.ca/beers
Having worked with Canadian government scientists for some time, the truth is that any delays in response to the press are simply because people are trying too hard to get it perfect. Most are terrified of making a mistake for fear of being pilloried by the media, and that fear is justified. If replies take too long, the 'bureaucrats' are running interference. Make an honest mistake or oversight, the 'bureaucrats' are lying/covering up. It's depressing.
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
See, not all bureaucrats are feckless. Probably private-sector though, this is why we need to sell off our government services to Suncor and Enbridge. Message integrity FTW!
Thanks, yes, I'm serious. The distribution is weak, probably have to go over the border to try them. Thanks.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
The whole thing about microbreweries is that they are micro. Local consumption is all they need. If you haven't met the brewmaster, it may not meet the criterion. Certainly if they can afford advertising and "distribution" they're too big.
Try the real stuff.
Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.
Your government is full of morons just like ours! Great JOB!
in about 4 years you will start getting the ultra rich that are upset that people are getting free healthcare and start suggesting they follow the superior USA healthcare model where we let about 15% die in the streets.
It's ok, those 15% are icky poor and probably not christian, they deserve to die.
This is the current USA thought pattern. Christian = good, not christian = bad. rich = good, not rich = parasite. Basically if you want to see where we are headed, read "Atlas Shrugged" to get a complete insight into what the republican party is up to.
Hopefully you get some entertainment out of it. Out of 4 republican candidates we got a ultra rich out of touch asshole, a Really rich Giant headed baby that is a scumbag by everyone's account, A bible thumping, wants the Vatican in charge racist, and a semi sane man that has no chance at all because he threatens all the ultra rich.
Romney is trying to make people believe he is a "regular guy" as he knows NASCAR team owners, and says stupid elitist shit all the time to prove that he is 100% worthless as a leader.
Look at the USA. We are what you will become in about 5 years. If you dont, we will probably try to annex you so that you fall in line and do what you are told.
The NASA experience proved that the journalist didn't need to have his mind read to get decent information. That the NRC needed to hours to figure out what he wanted is a problem in itself. Followup questions only work if the other party can give out an answer promptly, which the NRC has previously demonstrated that they can't do. Not even for a question that wasn't a threat to national security.
Oh fuck off. How many pipelines run through BC today? Thousands upon thousands of miles of it carrying every form of petrochemicals. Now how many more miles are running in North America as a whole? BC is full of all sorts of environmentally damaging industries - pulp and paper, mining, oil and gas. How can anyone stand there and say that suddenly this pipeline is a step too far and not be bowled over by their own hypocrisy? And how exactly can you say the pipeline is designed for lower pressure oil when the goddamn thing doesn't exist yet?
Legitimate opposition to Keystone and its alternative, Gateway, is entirely due to concerns about the source of the oil, not the method of transport. That and the fear that BC won't get its fair cut. Here's a newsflash: as soon as it isn't politically difficult to do so, Obama or his replacement is going to green light Keystone. Gateway is unlikely to proceed and BC will have been cut out of the story and Canada's oil export will continue to go to a single customer who has proven increasingly fickle (not to mention hypocritical).
Does Harper let the inuit talk about snow? Don't they have 100 different words for it?
They take their time in making decisions. And Canada has a lot of moose.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
In my limited experience, I can get some pretty adequate brews as much as say 700 miles away from the source. I don't really subscribe to the theory that big is bad, its all about recipe and freshness. I've been drinking Stone's Sublimely Self-Righteous lately, as I can get it it fresher than Sierra's Bigfoot here the backwater of Least Contra Costa County (Bigfoot season is over for 2012, but it stays drinkable for quite a while, just not as good as those first weeks in February.) I can get Stone up in Ashland, OR, and that's almost 800 miles from San Diego.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
How exactly can you say that they are going to design the pipeline adequately, when they won't acknowledge that they fucked up the last one.
Oh, BTW, I think I'm entitled to a little hypocrisy since they're running the fucking thing through my yard. There's no good reason to fuck the Skeena Watershed, there's less stunt-engineering involved in going down the Fraser to the existing seaports on the coast. That's if you want to finish off the job we started with the bold, new atmospheric Carbon levels. YMMV.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
I assume Canada doesn't want to even try refining tar into gasoline (the list of by products must be long and toxic), so they send it across the entirety of the continental US to Houston for refining. Why Houston? So the final product can be more easily exported to the global market. My fellow idiot USians think this pipline will result in lower gasoline prices*, but it will only result in the inevitible massive oil spills and ground water contamination.
* - It is beyond high time to take down all the two-foot tall numbers screaming out the current price of gasoline (but no other commodity?), given that even a 15-year old sedan gets about 25 mpg. Shouting the price of gasoline (artificially low w.r.t. the rest of the world) literally from the rooftops keeps it as a political football for moronic voters to help them vote against their own interests. 'Oh! The price of gas went up ten cents! I can't afford another $2.50 to completely fill up my 25 gallon tank!!'
I don't see this as surprising.
Civil Servants answer to political masters. If those political masters do not want or are cautious about the information in question, of course it is going to take a long time to get the requested answers. If the political masters do not care, or it is perceived as not an issue (or contentious), then it will take 15 minutes (depending on complexity of the question of course).
Presumably the political masters answer to the people.
So really they have no one to blame but themselves. (fresh out of sympathy, sorry)