Slashdot Mirror


Study Suggests the Number-Line Concept Is Not Intuitive

An anonymous reader writes "The Yupno people of New Guinea have provided clues to the origins of the number-line concept, and suggest that the familiar concept of time may be cultural as well. From the article: 'Tape measures. Rulers. Graphs. The gas gauge in your car, and the icon on your favorite digital device showing battery power. The number line and its cousins – notations that map numbers onto space and often represent magnitude – are everywhere. Most adults in industrialized societies are so fluent at using the concept, we hardly think about it. We don't stop to wonder: Is it 'natural'? Is it cultural? Now, challenging a mainstream scholarly position that the number-line concept is innate, a study suggests it is learned."

311 of 404 comments (clear)

  1. Did they test males or females? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Because I know most males know the number of their line, or at least what they think it is.

  2. The Story of 1 with Terry Jones by StarWreck · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I just watched a documentary about this on Netflix, called The Story of 1, starring Terry Jones of Monty Python fame.I think it mentioned the ruler wasn't invented until sometime in ancient egypt.

    --
    ... and in the DRM, bind them.
    1. Re:The Story of 1 with Terry Jones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I thought the concept of "ruler" started with King Arthur, after a watery tart lobbed a scimitar at him.

    2. Re:The Story of 1 with Terry Jones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Bah. Farcical aquatic ceremonies are no basis for a system of measurement.

      Use of the number line is derived from a mandate of the masses. Everyone knows that.

    3. Re:The Story of 1 with Terry Jones by ArsonSmith · · Score: 3, Funny

      I need to know the "watery tart lobbing scimitars" to miles conversion. The other day they was an asteroid the size of a strange woman distributing swords that burned up over California.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    4. Re:The Story of 1 with Terry Jones by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

      I need to know the "watery tart lobbing scimitars" to miles conversion.

      Unfortunately there's not a constant conversion, since the number of watery tarts lobbing scimitars per mile varies with geographical location.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    5. Re:The Story of 1 with Terry Jones by dkf · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately there's not a constant conversion, since the number of watery tarts lobbing scimitars per mile varies with geographical location.

      You mean it's a relativistic metric? Wow...

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    6. Re:The Story of 1 with Terry Jones by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      They could grasp it by the quillons.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    7. Re:The Story of 1 with Terry Jones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And what exactly is the ratio of moistened bints to watery tarts in a nautical mile, relative to a the weight of a duck witch?

    8. Re:The Story of 1 with Terry Jones by beckerist · · Score: 1

      The same way it carried the coconut

    9. Re:The Story of 1 with Terry Jones by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      No, it's more to do with the relative humidity/aridity of the local environment. There aren't many watery tarts in the Sahara, but a swimming pool at a Club 18-30 resort will be full of 'em.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    10. Re:The Story of 1 with Terry Jones by Fned · · Score: 2

      Have you seen those Redguard lake-women? They lob curved swords.

      Curved.

      Swords.

  3. Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Try getting a bunch of 10-year-olds to understand the number line concept and you will find out in approximately 3 seconds that it is not innate.

    1. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by slippyblade · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If your 10 year old doesn't ALREADY understand the number line, you have failed. Hell, if your 6 year old doesn't understand it, you've failed.

    2. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Brian+Feldman · · Score: 4, Funny

      -1 Completely misunderstanding the point of the article and comment.

      --
      Brian Fundakowski Feldman
    3. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Your ten year old probably doesn't understand the number line. Sure, he can put a few numbers on a line, but ask him to put a million, and a thousand on the line. Try it yourself, you may be surprised.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by jaymemaurice · · Score: 1

      To be fair though, they should all get basic concepts like the battery meter on a smartphone or the gas gauge on your car... or a glass being about a 1/3 full

      --
      120 characters ought to be enough for anyone
    5. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      depends on how bad they fuck it up. on my old HTC windows mobile phone the battery icon is totally empty when there is 30% power left when looking at the number in a buried menu

      50% full really means 80% full

      dumb crap like that is what makes our world a worse place... seriously there is more than 100 pixels worth of width on the screen (over 2x that on this tiny screen) but they cant display a gauge as an icon ... amazingly stupid

    6. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      on my old HTC windows mobile phone the battery icon is totally empty when there is 30% power left

      That just shows that Microsoft has never intuitively understood the number line, and is likely incapable of learning. See their file copy dialogs for further proof.

      dumb crap like that is what makes our world a worse place... ... amazingly stupid

      Which part of "Microsoft Product" did you not understand?

    7. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by MojoRilla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't get your comment. I teach math to six year olds once a week. They "get" the number line, in that they use it as a useful tool for calculation, and can understand how numbers equate to divisions on the paper. Is it innate? Probably not. Is it something that many six year olds in the US culture have? From my experience, yes.

      Where the article veers into the absurd is the suggestion that we should consider "bringing the human saga" into teaching math, and that math isn't objective fact, or black and white. Math is freaking math. There is right and wrong, black and white.

    8. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Cenan · · Score: 2
      Ever installed Windows XP on someone's PC?

      37 minutes left..... (10 minutes pass) 36 minutes left.... (10 minutes pass) 35 minutes left... (zing) 37 minutes left...

      --
      ... whatever ...
    9. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

      If your 10 year old doesn't ALREADY understand the number line, you have failed. Hell, if your 6 year old doesn't understand it, you've failed.

      Then I guess I failed. My seven year old son is at the top of his 2nd grade class in math. Be he was doing the number line exercise in Khan Academy about two weeks ago, and he needed some help. Once I explained the concept, and gave him a few examples, he "got it", and was able to do the exercises. But it was not intuitive. He needed an explanation.

    10. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

      50% full really means 80% full

      The ex-wife used to interpret the petrol gauge with a similar coversion function: E = Ehhhhnuff, (where fingers = crossed).

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    11. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Floyd-ATC · · Score: 2

      I drew a line and plotted in the three 2 digit numbers my then-4-year-old was curious about. It took him about 10 seconds to grasp the concept and plot a fourth number in roughly the right place, and I'm not a teacher. Maybe you've been around a bunch of particularly uninterested 10-year-olds?

      --
      Time flies when you don't know what you're doing
    12. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Chakra5 · · Score: 1

      dumb crap like that is what makes our world a worse place...

      You need to watch a little CK http://www.maniacworld.com/we-have-white-people-problems.html

      --
      Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.--Mark Twain
    13. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by lxs · · Score: 1, Funny

      Ah but did he "get" it or did his eternal soul "remember" it?
      Hmm? hmm?
      *strokes goatee while daydreaming about Plato*

    14. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Math is freaking math. There is right and wrong, black and white.

      Not at all. Math is a set of ways of mapping some of the real world into a world of artificial symbols and concepts. The symbols and mappings are, like any science, open to review anytime - "The map is not the territory".

    15. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Where the article veers into the absurd is the suggestion that we should consider "bringing the human saga" into teaching math, and that math isn't objective fact, or black and white. Math is freaking math. There is right and wrong, black and white.

      As a mathematician, I have to tell you that math is not objective fact. It is a system of constructions that are not based on objective reality, but on axioms and rules of logic that we made up. We use them because we've found them useful for reasoning about reality in some way. Math is logically consistent in itself, but it's a human-made system, and the way this system is built is a convention and historically contingent.

    16. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by janimal · · Score: 1

      The guy said "math is math" not "math is objective fact", and that there is "right and wrong", which did not imply moral issues. Yes, math is an abstract set of axioms and rules, but by golly, when you do a proof, it's either right or wrong; it's the implications that may be elusive.

    17. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Math is a set of ways of mapping some of the real world into a world of artificial symbols and concepts.

      No. The science which maps real-world phenomena onto artificial symbols and concepts is known as physics. Mathematics is only concerned with the artificial symbols and concepts, independent of whether they can be mapped to real-world entities (many things cannot).

      "The map is not the territory"

      Yes. And mathematics is about the map and its rules, without caring about the territory, or even if it corresponds to a territory at all. If you want to learn about the territory, use physics. And yes, you'll use maps (i.e. mathematics) there, too. But those maps are not arbitrary, but carefully adapted to the territory as far as we know it, and actively developed to improve how well it maps the territory.

      So in the map/territory picture you have:

      Mathematics: The science of maps. Doesn't care about what the maps mean, or if they mean anything at all. As long as a map is consistent, it is accepted as valid map.

      Physics: The science of territory. Uses maps to describe the territory. A map is considered valid only if it describes the relevant aspects of the mapped territory sufficiently well.

    18. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Kergan · · Score: 2, Informative

      Math is logically consistent in itself.

      *Cough*

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert's_second_problem

    19. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Math is a set of ways of mapping some of the real world into a world of artificial symbols and concepts.

      Not at all. Maths is useful and can be used to model the real world, but that is not what maths is.

      Ultimately, you start by imagining some basic rules (axioms) which can be whatever you like. Maths is the game and art of figuring out what, if anything follows from them.

      That's a simplification of course, and it often works back to front, in practice.

      The symbols and mappings are, like any science, open to review anytime - "The map is not the territory".

      No, maths is not science. The mapping of the world to maths is physics, and that is the science. Symbols are notation and almost every practicioner has their own symbology (though they share a lot of common ground with others).

      But, maths is about provable truths.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    20. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      Your ten year old probably doesn't understand the number line. Sure, he can put a few numbers on a line, but ask him to put a million, and a thousand on the line. Try it yourself, you may be surprised.

      At ten my kid was doing this - and negatives. It was part of the national curriculum so I expect most would be able to.

    21. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      Ah but did he "get" it or did his eternal soul "remember" it? Hmm? hmm?

      We can test him in his next reincarnation and find out

    22. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Brian+Feldman · · Score: 1

      This is a very accurate description, I think. Similarly, human linguistics generally concerns itself only with mappings between symbolic concepts with no thought as to how those are truly internally represented nor how synthesis into external representation occurs. It is mighty strange watching spoken/written language pour out fully-formed without once grasping how the process occurs. Literacy is much the same between math and writing.

      --
      Brian Fundakowski Feldman
    23. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by mikael · · Score: 1

      Must have been 15 years ago vut the UK had a school program which teached the concept of the number line using a series of fluorescent tubes hanging down from the studio ceiling. They counted numbers as tenty-one , tenty-two, tenty-three.

      Perhaps the natives thought the number line was a parametric variable clamped to the range 0.0 to 1.0, or other values depending on the implementation of the number line.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    24. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

      Physics? Is that your name for applied maths?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    25. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by cffrost · · Score: 1

      Your ten year old probably doesn't understand the number line. Sure, he can put a few numbers on a line, but ask him to put a million, and a thousand on the line. Try it yourself, you may be surprised.

      Done. In order to save time, paper, and ink, I made my number line logarithmic.

      --
      Thank you, Edward Snowden.

      "Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
    26. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by julesh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Logically consistent" and "able to be used to prove its own consistency" are not the same thing.

    27. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by VAElynx · · Score: 1

      10-year olds? What the hell, you learn this at 6-7.

    28. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The difference is between "innate" and "intuitive", and you nailed the difference on the head. This study is dealing with a group that, I assume, has very little formal education in arithmetic. If they haven't been taught about numbers and they don't use them regularly, of course a number line won't make sense. But the fact that number lines are everywhere that people do use basic number concepts is ample evidence that they are intuitive, that is, that they can be easily grasped and quickly interpreted.

    29. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by supercrisp · · Score: 1

      No, no, no: pure maps is cartography and applied maps is geography.

    30. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by arth1 · · Score: 4, Funny

      In order to save time, paper, and ink, I made my number line logarithmic.

      I hope you made two of them for the synergy effect.

      Slide rule joke of the day:
      When Noah told his menagerie "go forth and multiply", two snakes replied: "We can't, we're adders!"
      Noah then built a wooden table, placed the snakes on it, and much joy and spawn ensued.
      Because on a log table, even adders can multiply.

    31. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by tehcyder · · Score: 2

      I teach math to six year olds once a week. They "get" the number line, in that they use it as a useful tool for calculation, and can understand how numbers equate to divisions on the paper. Is it innate? Probably not. Is it something that many six year olds in the US culture have? From my experience, yes.

      When my kids started school, they had to be taught how to use number lines, number grids for multiplication, how to divide by 2 and so on, just as much as they had to be taught how to read. None of it is innate, as far as I can see.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    32. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by necro81 · · Score: 1

      -1 Completely misunderstanding the point of the article and comment.

      I can relate to the difficulty in trying to explain the concept of a number line when I was tutoring one of my fellow high school classmates in algebra. She couldn't grasp the concept of negative numbers. I drew a number line, put a zero in the middle, and started marking off the positive integers. She was with me when I illustrated 2 + 3 = 5 on the number line. But there was a (figurative) brick wall between us when I then illustrated 2 - 3 = -1.

    33. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Math is freaking math. There is right and wrong, black and white."

      You may want to take a Philosophy of Mathematics course.

    34. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by HarryatRock · · Score: 2

      That depends on your definition of proof, and of the system of logic being used. A simple (simplistic?) binary logic may produce a domain in which proofs are either true or false but not both, whilst a more interesting logic may suggest that a proof ( or any statement) is either true, false, true and false, neither true nor false, or not determinable. Using such a logic (or any other consistent set of states) is perfectly valid maths, and can give rise to some interesting results, in fact some of these even turn out to be of use to physicists and other students of the "real world", even though a "real" mathematician is disinterested in such mundane matters. Applied maths is just what it says on the box - the (often unwarranted) process of assigning "real world" measurements to mathematical structures and then taking the result of a mathematical operation on those structures and interpreting the values as though they applied to the "real world".
      In fact I also disagree with your statement defining maths as an abstract set of axioms and rules, which seems to me to cover only part of the game. There is such a thing as mathematical "elegance", which most mathematicians would recognize as integral to the game, but which I cannot easily define - just that some systems are more "elegant" than others. I suspect that all human maths is "blinkered" by our nature (primates - carbon based - etc.) and would not be surprised if a different kind of mind produced a maths which we could not easily comprehend.
      If you are interested in maths, you should really try to read Russel's Principia - but take care - the game of maths is much more addictive than any video nasty.

      --
      nec sorte nec fato
    35. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by tmosley · · Score: 1

      No knowledge or concept is innate. If it was, feral children would understand such things.

      But it isn't cultural either. There is no culture in the world, nor has there ever been one (to my knowledge), that could count but couldn't measure. African pygmies are about as backward as you can get, but they measure distance in the number of days it takes to walk somewhere.

    36. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Did you draw the line vertical or horizontal? Everybody understands what a basement is.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    37. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by FlopEJoe · · Score: 1

      The only intuitive thing is the nipple. After that it's all learned. (from what I remember of the saying)

    38. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      that's not even true, there are plenty of constructed by postulate math systems that don't correspond to any part of the real world. math, like science, is an invention of the human mind. parts of both might be useful in modeling the real world, but other parts do not or are discovered to be incorrect.

    39. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      ... to scale?

      It's easy to put things in order, it's harder to space them correctly.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    40. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      "Teached?" I'm going to guess the same school taught you to write like that.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    41. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by camperdave · · Score: 3, Funny

      Watch kids play with Lego sometime. They'll be able to tell you why their sibling has the very brick they were going to use to make their creation. Number line they get. Fungibility of Lego bricks, they don't.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    42. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      No. Human babies have to learn how to feed themselves.

      Some learn fast, a few take some hours.

    43. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      That's perfectly correct, and useless. Are you a matematician?

      We don't just want our kids to be able to manipulate symbols (at least, I don't want). Any computer can do that. The most important concept of math is how to use it to solve real problems, AKA, how to choose the best map to represent some kind of terrain.

    44. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I don't buy the "not measuring" bit either. If these people use some form of tools or weapons they must be measuring, even informally. Their hunting spears aren't 3 inches long, and they aren't 70 feet either.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    45. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      Math is logically consistent in itself,

      Math can't be that logical if you can use imaginary numbers to solve problems.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    46. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      Does "mikael" look like a native English-speaker's handle to you?

      Right. There is no intrinsic link between intelligence and knowledge of English.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    47. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

      Similarly, human linguistics generally concerns itself only with mappings between symbolic concepts with no thought as to how those are truly internally represented nor how synthesis into external representation occurs.

      No it most certainly does not. That's "semiotics". "Linguistics" is a much broader field.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    48. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      To be fair though, they should all get basic concepts like the battery meter on a smartphone or the gas gauge on your car... or a glass being about a 1/3 full

      Key concept: the glass is "one third full" -- IE fraction of "one", the whole line is "one". The battery, gas tank or glass is "1/3 full" -- this is not a numberline.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    49. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Math is freaking math. There is right and wrong, black and white.

      Not at all. Math is a set of ways of mapping some of the real world into a world of artificial symbols and concepts. The symbols and mappings are, like any science, open to review anytime - "The map is not the territory".

      You're absofuckinglutely wrong.
      Math is absolute. It happens to be a useful tool to use when analyzing the Universe around us.

    50. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Does mine? Yours? Handles do not make reliable indicators.

      Anyway, I didn't say anything about his intelligence. You made that inferrence.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    51. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by jythie · · Score: 1

      Within itself yes, math is right or wrong, but that is mostly because it is self consistant. Talk to any good anthropologist or historical linguist and they will tell you that 'math' as we know it is not what it always was, and there are multiple systems that are all self consistant. It is kinda like programming languages.. compile your program and it either works or does not, but that does not mean C++ (or even OOP) is the only language, and there is a lot to learn by teaching some of the other systems.

    52. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Solandri · · Score: 1

      I think this is a non-story. Integers are intuitive. Non-integer real numbers are not. A number line is just a graphical representation of all real numbers, integer and non-integer.

      Once a kid gets the concept that there are numbers other than integers, the number line becomes perfectly natural.

    53. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Prune · · Score: 1

      "independent of whether they can be mapped to real-world entities (many things cannot)"

      Absolutely false. Mathematics is directly mapped to the physical world by the neural correlates of mathematical thought. The antiquated concept of a platonic mathematical world that is beyond the physical universe is a religious proposition.

      --
      "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
    54. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Hazelfield · · Score: 1

      Everyone knows that math is just applied philosophy.

    55. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by svick · · Score: 1

      We don't just want our kids to be able to manipulate symbols (at least, I don't want). Any computer can do that.

      Actually, no, they can't. At least not as well as human mathematicians can. Have you ever seen a proof by a computer? It doesn't actually manipulate symbols, it just enumerates all the possibilities.

      Computers are good at computing. You could say that that's a subset of "manipulating symbols", but it's a very small subset.

    56. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by jc42 · · Score: 1

      ... there are plenty of constructed by postulate math systems that don't correspond to any part of the real world. ...

      And one of the ongoing topics of humor among mathematicians is the mathematician who carefully constructs a set of axioms that lead to an especially beautiful new bit of math, and is proud of the fact that nothing it it applies to anything in the real world. Then one day, a physicist announces that this math system has solved an important problem in physics, and publishes papers showing what part of the real wold it applies to. The mathematician is, of course, heartbroken.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    57. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by mikael · · Score: 1

      I tried writing that comment using the Swype feature of my mobile phone. Typing sensible and coherent is virtually impossible when the buttons are half as wide as your fingers.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    58. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by HiThere · · Score: 1

      FWIW, knowledge of small integers seems to be innate. Arithmetic much less so. The number line would appear to fall in the category of arithmetic.

      Please note that many languages, including English, used to use different counting systems for different kinds of things. (Just where the separation occurs appears to be a cultural variable.) So even though small integers are innate, counting "things" as opposed to "the same kind of thing"s doesn't appear to be innate.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    59. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by HiThere · · Score: 1

      FWIW, I believe that any system strong enough to prove it's consistency can also prove it's inconsistency. (I believe that's one of Gödel’s theorems.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    60. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Altrag · · Score: 1

      There's nothing illogical about imaginary numbers. Except their name. They're actually pretty hard to imagine except as an abstraction.

      But I guess calling them "conceptually orthogonal numbers" would just be confusing.

    61. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Altrag · · Score: 1

      It certainly is. Number lines don't always have to be marked only on full integers. A line over the range [0,1] marked in 0.1 unit increments is most definitely still a number line.

      If you want to get terribly technical, the "number line" stretches from -inf to +inf, with an infinite number of equally-spaced increments between any two points, and every representation we can build in the physical world is necessarily just a segment of said line with coarse approximations for the increment marks.

    62. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      That was my first reaction... it may not be innate, but so what? Once you learn one, it's intuitive for practically every other use. So it's not "innate," but is there really something better? If not, what's the point?

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    63. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by PuZZleDucK · · Score: 1

      Gold!!!

      I once wrote a program like that ...

      --
      Can a person program a new solution to a problem? Why should anyone be able to stop such a thing? -Richard Stallman
    64. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      A spear is commonly as tall as a man, or comes up to his throat, or whatever. Different kind of spear, different gauge. But is that measuring or comparison? You're not declaring that the spear should be .937 of you, it just comes up to whatever point and they scribe a mark and start cutting.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    65. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      Nope. A bar representing proportion is a first-order abstraction because the line is an abstract analogue of a physical unit.

      A numberline is a second order abstraction because it takes an arbitrary abstract range and maps it onto an abstract analogue of proportion.

      Just because the two things look the same does not mean they are conceptually the same.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    66. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      No. But it IS necessarily incomplete.

    67. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      What use is the differentiation in this case?
      And where is "number line" defined that way?
      It's nonsense. If I write "gallons" over the 1 on the number line, it's suddenly promoted from second-order to first order?

    68. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by HArchH · · Score: 1

      A spear is commonly as tall as a man, or comes up to his throat, or whatever. Different kind of spear, different gauge. But is that measuring or comparison?

      Isn't measuring the same as comparing? When I measure a distance, I'm simply comparing it to a standard established by some guy a couple hundred years ago that I've been taught to use. We call the units "feet" here. Perhaps you call it "meters".

      If I want a spear that is 2 meters long, I pull out the standard, compare it, and cut it. If I want a spear up to my chin I pull out the standard (me), measure it, and cut it.

      Anyway, as I see it there are only a couple of things that are innate in humans: breathing and breastfeeding.

    69. Re:Anyone who has ever taught math knows this by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      No, measuring is not the same as comparing, unless you have a ruler. Otherwise you have to describe objects as being bigger or smaller than something, because you (practically) never have precisely the right size.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  4. BASIC Programming, old school by OakDragon · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Did anyone else think about older versions of interpreted BASIC first?

    1. Re:BASIC Programming, old school by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That would be line number not number line.

    2. Re:BASIC Programming, old school by Boronx · · Score: 2

      You must use one of those languages weird that puts the modifier before the modified.

    3. Re:BASIC Programming, old school by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      no, you number a line in basic, making it line number X, your not putting a graph of numbers on a line to represent an analog value

    4. Re:BASIC Programming, old school by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      Talking you are aboth Forth?

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    5. Re:BASIC Programming, old school by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      Ugh, that should be lisp, of course. You are about Forth talking?

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    6. Re:BASIC Programming, old school by julesh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You Forth about talking are, I think is what you're aiming for. Your sentence came across as more German than RPN.

    7. Re:BASIC Programming, old school by crutchy · · Score: 1

      watched star wars one too many times, he has

  5. Counting? by deodiaus2 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I wonder how far this goes! Is the notion of the counting numbers innate? I have heard that monkeys cannot count beyond 4. The way that people figured this out is that if five hunters go into a forest as a group, split up and hide. Then one by one, four hunters leave one at a time. The fifth hunter stays in hiding, the monkeys come out of hunting, and the hunter shoots a monkey. This does not happen when there are less than five hunters initially.

    1. Re:Counting? by pthisis · · Score: 5, Funny

      The way that people figured this out is that if five hunters go into a forest as a group, split up and hide. Then one by one, four hunters leave one at a time. The fifth hunter stays in hiding, the monkeys come out of hunting, and the hunter shoots a monkey. This does not happen when there are less than five hunters initially.
      I should hope not: if there are four hunters initially, then one by one four hunters leave, there are no hunters left to shoot the monkey. And if there are 3 or fewer hunters initially than the scenario's impossible.

      --
      rage, rage against the dying of the light
    2. Re:Counting? by dcollins · · Score: 1

      "And if there are 3 or fewer hunters initially than the scenario's impossible."

      Not if, after all 4 leave, at least 2 go back.

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    3. Re:Counting? by sg_oneill · · Score: 2

      Thats not necessarily even counting on the monkeys behalf. A lot of neuroscientists reckon we can process about 4 separate things in our mind simultaneously , and then use a variety of clever tricks to work around it (Ie counting!) and if that stretches across species. So conciably the monkeys are just at their limit of how many dudes they can track at once, rather than an inability to count beyond 4.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    4. Re:Counting? by Brucelet · · Score: 1, Funny

      Well maybe there were just a negative number of hunters to begin with. It takes monkey smarts to realize this possibility.

    5. Re:Counting? by Ambvai · · Score: 1

      Not if there're male and female hunters in the group...

    6. Re:Counting? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2

      If 3 hunters go in and 4 come out, there is negative 1 hunter in the forest. If he shoots a dead monkey, it comes back to life.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    7. Re:Counting? by blankinthefill · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Numbers are not an intuitive concept. As I've learned more and more math, I've had numerous discussions about this topic. The conclusions that tend to be reached are that sets are intuitive. A set is very intuitive, it's just a bunch of objects that are grouped together. You may not THINK of these things as sets, but that's what they are. You have a pile of apples, or a herd of sheep, or a group of hunters. Those are all sets of objects (or some philosophers would argue that there's a difference between the set and the group of physical objects, but I don't think that this ruins the intuition here). You can also label those things however you want, or not label them at all. Very intuitive. But numbers are when intuition starts to get messed up. A number can be disassociated from a concrete set, and that can make it hard to deal with, if you're not used to it. What is 1? What does it mean? What does it even mean to talk about 1 sheep, if it's completely hypothetical? There's no concrete sheep there, so what does it MEAN to be talking about 1 sheep? It's not even like you're talking about a sheep that's going to be born, or that belongs to your neighbors. This sheep is basically just imaginary. That's really a huge jump in cognition, especially when you start to consider other crazy things about numbers, like what's the biggest number, and what's a negative number, and what if you can't divide your numbers evenly. Anyways, nothing scholarly to back this up, just my experience in mathematics :)

    8. Re:Counting? by Mannfred · · Score: 1, Funny

      Once you go silverback, there's no going back.

    9. Re:Counting? by Vellmont · · Score: 2

      I wonder how far this goes! Is the notion of the counting numbers innate?
      Counting exact numbers is not innate. There are some cultures that don't have words for an exact number beyond 3. That doesn't mean they don't understand quantities, just that they can't name a specific amount. It'd be like if somone showed you a thousand of something, and 1100 of something. You'd know the 1100 was more, but you wouldn't be certain by exactly how much more.

      --
      AccountKiller
    10. Re:Counting? by mooingyak · · Score: 1

      That is a seriously long wait.

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    11. Re:Counting? by mveloso · · Score: 1

      There are studies that show the "natural" conception of numbers is one, two, many, a lot.

      http://numberwarrior.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/is-one-two-many-a-myth/

      You can search the real literature if you'd like; that was one of the first hits I found. Once you can teach your kids to count beyond 5, they've already beaten most of humanity.

    12. Re:Counting? by initialE · · Score: 4, Funny

      There was this bald monkey coming out, screaming in his monkey language: "There... Are... Four... Hunters!"
      And then, he died. Apparently a bad day to wear his red shirt.

      --
      Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
    13. Re:Counting? by theshibboleth · · Score: 2

      Hmm, but if sets _are_ intuitive then it follows that numbers are too based on set theory. {} = 0 {{}} = 1 2 = {{{}}} = {0,1} ...

    14. Re:Counting? by g2devi · · Score: 1

      Not really impossible.

      If 3 hunters go in and 4 come out, it's possible one was a pregnant amazon.

    15. Re:Counting? by blankinthefill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The problem with this argument is that it assumes that set THEORY is intuitive, which I do not agree with. While a SET is an intuitive concept, the ZF axioms of set theory and what they imply are NOT intuitive. There may be basic operations that are more intuitive, like the union of two sets or the intersection of two sets, but that intuition is almost entirely tied to the physical manifestation of the set. As soon as you introduce the formal idea of a set, especially as an abstract construct, I believe that, just like what I said about numbers, you remove a large amount of the basic intuition behind them. While a lot of the things that happen here seem intuitive to us, I feel like that is almost solely due to the fact that we are introduced to this abstraction at such an early age, and we deal with it so much, that we internalize it. Without that exposure, I'm not so sure the abstractions of sets and numbers is totally intuitive.

    16. Re:Counting? by osschar · · Score: 1

      People from Wales know how to count their sheep, imaginary or not.

    17. Re:Counting? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Unless the grandparent poster is making a wildly strong claim, it is unlikely that 'sets' as in 'axiomatic set theory' are intuitive; but that use of essentially setlike operators on comparatively small(and definitely finite) numbers of things is intuitive... Just stay away from some of the behaviorally-challenged edge cases.

    18. Re:Counting? by atuk_daud · · Score: 1

      Also noted in 'Watership Down' with reference to rabbits - thus become the hrair limit - with rabbits it seems to be two is the limit.

      --
      The truly loyal subject will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures
    19. Re:Counting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny
      That's a mistranslation.

      It was actually "Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!"

    20. Re:Counting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Of course sets are intuitive; just ask any child capable of communicating whether something you've just handed it belongs to the set of 'yours' or 'mine'. You'll quickly find that children understand the null set as well; it is the equivalent of 'yours'.

    21. Re:Counting? by idbeholda · · Score: 1

      Numbers are not an intuitive concept.

      For your sake, I hope you're joking.

    22. Re:Counting? by shoor · · Score: 1

      Confession, I did not read the article, but:

      Yeah, I think I know what you mean. I remember in some early math class I had (maybe even in high school), they gave the example of how shepherds would put a pebble in a bag for each sheep that went into a field to forage in the morning, and rounding them up at night, would take a pebble out for each sheep found. As long as there were stones left, the shepherd knew there were sheep unaccounted for.

      I can see how stone age peoples might have had words for the first few numbers, 1, 2, and then maybe 'many'. If you look at how writing evolved, it took hundreds, maybe thousands, of years, starting out by putting marks on things. Numbers and arithmetic and their manipulation took a long time also. There were abacuses long before 'arabic' numerals, and maybe the words for larger numbers were associated with representations on abacuses originally.
       

      --
      In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice they're different. (Yogi Berra & A. Einstein)
    23. Re:Counting? by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      What is 1?

      I thought that everybody knew that: One is the loneliest number that there ever was.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    24. Re:Counting? by Scarletdown · · Score: 1

      Not true. You'd end up with -1 hunters.. while irrational, is still a valid answer. I'm not sure what the Monkey's response would be however.

      That's easy. The monkey's response would be, "17, because bananas can't moonwalk."

      --
      This space unintentionally left blank.
    25. Re:Counting? by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      A portion of the concepts numbers are used to describe are intuitive. Numbers themselves, especially when used in an incredibly abstract manner, are not in and of themselves necessarily intuitive.

    26. Re:Counting? by TheLink · · Score: 2

      A lot of neuroscientists reckon we can process about 4 separate things in our mind simultaneously

      I think it depends on the sort of processing you need to do with those things and how long you have to do it:
      http://cognitivefun.net/test/28
      http://cognitivefun.net/test/7
      http://cognitivefun.net/test/3
      http://cognitivefun.net/test/4
      http://cognitivefun.net/test/8
      Apparently you can train yourself to do it better, and some research claims that "dual n-back" (and n-back) training can also increase your "fluid intelligence".
      FWIW I've got much better at the single "n-back" where n=2, after just a few tries over a day or two. I haven't even bothered trying n=4 for that - won't be able to do it without significant practice! Whereas n=5 or more for the simpler tests are trivial.

      I find another thing curious - either my reflexes have improved by 20-30ms or the first PC I tried it out on has 20-30ms more lag (screen+mouse+etc). I suspect the latter - could I really have improved my reflexes over a day or two?

      --
    27. Re:Counting? by sFurbo · · Score: 1

      Normally, 2 = {0,1} = { {} , {{}} }
      2 has two members, three has two members and so on.

    28. Re:Counting? by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Is the notion of the counting numbers innate? I have heard that monkeys cannot count beyond 4.

      If you've ever tried to order more than four items at a fast food restaurant, you know the answer to this.

    29. Re:Counting? by __aaqvdr516 · · Score: 1

      +1 for Jean Luc Pichimp

    30. Re:Counting? by MDillenbeck · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, not joking. There already have been studies that show different cultures have different counting systems. For example, many cultures will have only the most basic of numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) and then jump into the "many" category. Another example of the non-intuitive nature of numbers? 0. That one took a while to catch on. Third example? Describe to me a forest with -10 trees or a person with -1 apple. Negative numbers were not intuitive either. Notice I am avoiding those wonderful numbers like fractions, irrational numbers (pi, e, the square root of two, etc), and complex numbers (i, the square root of -1... graph that on your number line!) - all of which are not intuitive in and of themselves. Final example? If numbers are intuitive, why does it take so long to teach our young to count? Why do so few people understand the concept of billions and trillions of dollars of debt, or the vast distances of the universe, or the very tiny number which represents the time in which million/billion/trillions of molecules collide and interact when undergoing an exothermic reaction?

      No, while you have been educated and indoctrinated into a system of numbers, that does not mean it is intuitive. Or another way to think of it - take the pro basketball player who has taught his muscles how to shoot a 3-pointer... he might argue that it is intuitive, meanwhile someone like me (who couldn't make a freaking free-throw shot) would say that it is definitely not intuitive.

    31. Re:Counting? by arth1 · · Score: 2

      Not true. You'd end up with -1 hunters.. while irrational, is still a valid answer

      No, -1 isn't irrational. If it had been the square root of two hunters, it would have been irrational.

    32. Re:Counting? by HarryatRock · · Score: 1

      I don't follow the reasoning that "sets are impossible to define in a non circular manner" implies "sets are intuitive". And even if they are intuitive, that doesn't imply that the cardinality of sets is also intuitive.

      --
      nec sorte nec fato
    33. Re:Counting? by mblase · · Score: 1

      Studies done on human babies under one year of age show that they have a concept of number up to three. (Source: ... I forget, but it's one of Keith Devlin's books.) These studies are based on the idea that babies stare longer at things that aren't expected -- so if you show them one object, then a second object, then hide them both and then reveal two objects, they are less surprised than if one object plus one object becomes three objects.

      However, starting with four, the "innate math" of the brain fails. Everything after the number three is invented by human civilization. This is more remarkable when you consider that language IS innate to the human brain -- normal humans anywhere will develop a complete language, vocabulary and grammar with past and present tenses even if they aren't taught it by adults. (Source: my own head. I'd actually like to know if this is authoritative.)

      The practical upshot of this is: yes, math is hard. The human brain isn't designed/evolved to do it at any level beyond "one, two, three, lots."

    34. Re:Counting? by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      or an amazon into bestiality who paired up with a monkey

    35. Re:Counting? by melikamp · · Score: 1

      IMHO, ZFC has only two nutty axioms: Infinity and Foundation. The rest are intuitive both individually and as a group.

    36. Re:Counting? by idbeholda · · Score: 1

      You seem to conveniently leave out the fact that there are also numerous cultures with counting systems that extend beyond base ten. Simply because a few cultures have only developed the need to count to a maximum arbitrary number does NOT mean that numbers are non-intuitive.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numeral_systems

      And once we take http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvigesimal into account, your carefully crafted argument pretty much breaks down.

    37. Re:Counting? by johanwanderer · · Score: 1

      Actually, the "counting" concept is built on top of sets.

      This article about set is pretty good: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128231.400-ultimate-logic-to-infinity-and-beyond.html, so is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting

      So, does the question become, is "set" innate?

    38. Re:Counting? by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      Perhaps one of the hunters was a cannibal, and so five went in but only 1 came out with a big ....

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    39. Re:Counting? by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      That same trick was successfully used to hunt me down during paintball (in the particular type of game we were playing, each side had a President with no paintball gun, I was one of those Presidents, and the objective was for one team to eventually shoot the other side's President to win the game).

      Does that really mean that I couldn't count beyond 4, or 5, or 6? I hope not. Usually, if the rest of my team gets killed off, I just keep my head down, and hope no one sees me. Sticking my head out for too long when a group approaches me, to make sure I count them all, is not always the most optimal strategy.

      And bear in mind, this is just paintball I'm talking about, if the people hunting me down had real guns and if this was a real life and death situation, I'd probably be a thousand times more paranoid, and a thousand times more ineffective at counting those people hunting me.

    40. Re:Counting? by initialE · · Score: 1

      The hunters names were "One", "Two", "Three", "Four", "Hrair", "Hrair", "Hrair", "Hrair", and "Hrair". But only if the monkeys were rabbits. Are you sure you didn't get your anecdote mixed up with a famous story somewhere?

      --
      Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
    41. Re:Counting? by EricScott · · Score: 1

      Describe to me a forest with -10 trees

      Overbooking. A person who sold 110 trees when they had only 100 (or had 110 but 10 were destroyed before delivery) has a forest with -10 trees. Street-smart people without math skills will understand this immediately.

    42. Re:Counting? by MDillenbeck · · Score: 1

      If I understand your argument, numbers are intuitive because multiple number systems with differing bases have arisen over time. I think this would play into the concept of numbers not being intuitive. I have 10 apples, you give me 1 apple, I have 11 apples. How many apples do you picture me having? Most modern people will picture {A A A A A A A A A A A} sitting before me. I computer would have the picture {A A A} sitting before me. A base 20 system would picture {A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A} before me.

      I will concede that a when dealing with a set of counting numbers (consisting of the union of natural numbers and some fractional values, and possibly even integers once a more abstract system of commerce with debt is established) could be considered intuitive. However, the complex number set includes a real number component plus an imaginary component (the square root of -1), which is something that often unused in most people's lives and seems utterly unintuitive. Many irrational numbers are also unintuitive, as are extremely large and small numbers. Perhaps our differing opinion comes from viewing the term 'number' as different number sets?

      To be honest, I can understand why people find it incredulous that certain concepts are not intuitive. For example, they have shown that children in Africa who grew up making toys out of spare bits of wire have an "intuitive" grasp towards CAD design. To this child, building wire frame models seems natural, but to many other children who did not have the same education in building physical wire frame models do not have the same grasp of the concept and definitely would not find it intuitive.

      I admit that I too have my own biases in these matters, for I have grown up in the USA and have been exposed to certain things. For example, there are certain human rights that I consider "intuitive" in nature, but a person from a collectivist culture would not find "intuitive" (and vice verse). To me this indicates that some of these areas are not intuitive but learned constructs. As such, I regard things labeled as "intuitive" with a bit of skepticism.

    43. Re:Counting? by fonske · · Score: 1

      And on the line of forgiveness seventy times seven is infinite.
      That is where the parallel line of evil intersects.
      Or the stupidity line.

  6. Vertically, it is. by pushing-robot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Any measuring cup will tell you a number line can be very intuitive. Stacking objects, filling a container; many everyday tasks are perfect physical examples of a number line.

    Rulers are another example, though perhaps a bit less physical or intuitive.

    --
    How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    1. Re:Vertically, it is. by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm inclined not to believe your oversimplification. I remember elementary school math, with whole chapters devoted to teaching the number line. Concepts such as greater/less, constant distance, visual estimation, and numberless comparisons are, or were, part of what gets taught in a school setting.

      If you don't have the concept of a number line already, is it really that intuitive to stack 1 cup on top of another and consider it a measurement rather than an amount? Stacking things and coming up with a ruler based on that stacking seem like they are fairly distinct concepts, that one won't lead to the other.

    2. Re:Vertically, it is. by gargleblast · · Score: 2

      Intuitive? Watch a toddler try and fill a cup from a jug sometime.

    3. Re:Vertically, it is. by The+Wild+Norseman · · Score: 1

      I'm inclined not to believe your oversimplification.

      Hey, we're discussing algebra, not geometry!

      --
      "A government is a body of people usually -- notably -- ungoverned." -Shepherd Book
    4. Re:Vertically, it is. by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Intuitive? Watch a toddler try and fill a cup from a jug sometime.

      A toddler trying to fill a bathtub from a jug gives just about the same result.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    5. Re:Vertically, it is. by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "with whole chapters devoted to teaching the number line"

      Never had that in my classes. No problems understanding a number line, here.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    6. Re:Vertically, it is. by MDillenbeck · · Score: 1

      So suppose I walk in a circle, such that my 10th step falls in the same location as my first step. Is that circle a number line?

      The question you need to ask yourself is this: when I did not know what a number line was did my walking make me intuitively come up with the concept of an rank ordered and regularly interval-ed straight line, or does my knowledge of a number line make me perceive walking as a rank ordered and regularly interval-ed straight line where a step backwards is a "negative" step and a step forward is a "positive" step? What the article shows is the latter is far more likely.

    7. Re:Vertically, it is. by MDillenbeck · · Score: 2

      Do you intuitively know what a continent is? If you said yes, post a reply then check out What are Continents? - then post another reply to that.

      As to the measuring cup example: if a number line is so intuitive to a measuring cups, why are so many sets of unmarked 1/4 cup, 1/3 cup, 1/2 cup, and 1 cup measuring cups sold? After all, shouldn't anyone just need a 1 cup measuring cup? For that matter, why need tablespoons and teaspoons? After all, a tablespoon is merely 1/16 of a cup and a teaspoon is 1/48 of a cup. Only those measuring cups that have a number line artificially graphed on them are intuitive - otherwise why even need a measuring cup, as a measuring gallon would be just as easy to use and require a lot less kitchen tools.

      I think your examples are putting the cart before the horse. You perceive these things to be intuitive examples of a number line because you already have already been educated in what a number line is. The study mentioned reports that adults in other cultures who have not been indoctrinated/educated in the concept of a number line do not perceive these objects in that manner. This is why we often see scientific research done on things we consider "common sense" - because science cannot assume something is because it is perceived as intuitive, they need to find evidence that it is intuitive. In this case, they have found evidence that number lines are not intuitive.

      If you find a white crow, it shows the statement 'all crows are black' is false. Thus, the statement "number lines are intuitive" is proven false by this study. Similarly, your statement of "number lines can be intuitive" has an unspoken assumption of 'assuming you know what a number line is' is a fairly meaningless assertion. In other words, you have found good tools to teach people how to perceive a number line, but if you do not teach them a number line the likelihood of them developing the concept without prompting is low.

    8. Re:Vertically, it is. by Evil+Pete · · Score: 1

      Yes, I agree. I find this "number line is not intuitive" a very curious thing. For one, who cares if it isn't intuitive? It is easy enough to pick up, kids do it every day. As for intuitive, why not? I mean if I hold out my hand and start counting then I have a graduated number line right there. If I string beads on a string I have an analog of a number line. Not exactly hard is it?

      --
      Bitter and proud of it.
    9. Re:Vertically, it is. by retchdog · · Score: 2

      the single-measure cups are for scooping the right amount of dry material directly out of a bag, especially flour. in fact, that's what they are called: dry measuring cups.

      not only is it much more convenient (have you ever tried to pour flour?), but flour volumes in recipes are based on it being loosely-packed, which is easier if you just scoop it.

      --
      "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
    10. Re:Vertically, it is. by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 1

      As to the measuring cup example: if a number line is so intuitive to a measuring cups, why are so many sets of unmarked 1/4 cup, 1/3 cup, 1/2 cup, and 1 cup measuring cups sold? After all, shouldn't anyone just need a 1 cup measuring cup? For that matter, why need tablespoons and teaspoons? After all, a tablespoon is merely 1/16 of a cup and a teaspoon is 1/48 of a cup.

      You would be correct if materials, especially powders leveled off in nice even measurements. It's just quicker to scoop out a 1/2 cup of flour with a 1/2 cup and level it flat, then it is to fill a larger container to the correct amount.

    11. Re:Vertically, it is. by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      Any measuring cup will tell you a number line can be very intuitive. Stacking objects, filling a container; many everyday tasks are perfect physical examples of a number line.

      May be for you they're "everyday tasks" and everyday physical objects, but for indigenous people in a very remote village in Papua New Guinea -- that may not be the case. I know. I also find it hard to believe that such a village wouldn't have plastic containers for something like water at the very least, but perhaps they have organic gourds and wooden scoops that are as plentiful as plastic is in our own society.

  7. English, Mofo. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Do you speak (or write) it? Intuitive and instinctual are different words.

  8. Valleys and Language by IntentionalStance · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't have the reference to hand but I recall there is a South American tribe which don't have words for left and right as most languages do. There words are equivalent to "Up Valley" and "Down Valley" Similarly, if I recall correctly, there's a Native American language that uses before and behind as an analog for time but the other way around to most languages. Their analogy is that you know the past and you can see what it in front of you so forward = the past. You can't see behind you and you don't know the future so behind = the future

    1. Re:Valleys and Language by JoshuaZ · · Score: 5, Informative

      The Piraha are in South America and they have a language that is lacking many words considered normal in other cultures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language. They give directions primarily in terms of the relation to the river (towards or away from the river or up or down the river) which may be what you are thinking of. There's a highly readable book about the tribe and their language- "Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes" by Daniel Everett, a linguist who spent decades with them. However, there's some degree of question by other scholars about how accurate Everett's description of their language was, and research is ongoing.

    2. Re:Valleys and Language by Garble+Snarky · · Score: 1

      FTA:
      "In their time study with the Yupno, now in press at the journal Cognition, Nunez and colleagues find that the Yupno don't use their bodies as reference points for time – but rather their valley's slope and terrain. Analysis of their gestures suggests they co-locate the present with themselves, as do all previously studied groups. (Picture for a moment how you probably point down at the ground when you talk about "now.") But, regardless of which way they are facing at the moment, the Yupno point uphill when talking about the future and downhill when talking about the past."

      "In earlier research, Nunez found that the Aymara of the Andes seem to do the reverse, placing the past in front and the future behind."

      The second example seemed odd to me, but makes a lot of sense with your analogy.

    3. Re:Valleys and Language by QuasiSteve · · Score: 1

      Similarly, if I recall correctly, there's a Native American language that uses before and behind as an analog for time but the other way around to most languages. Their analogy is that you know the past and you can see what it in front of you so forward = the past. You can't see behind you and you don't know the future so behind = the future

      Yes, that may well have been...

      the Aymara of the Andes [seem to do the reverse, placing the past in front and the future behind]

      Source? TFA, which mentions the same researcher was involved with that finding.

    4. Re:Valleys and Language by IntentionalStance · · Score: 1
      Language is much more strange than most people realise.

      I speak some Thai and it is really difficult for English speakers to grasp

      Imagine - no word for yes or no. Verbs don't change their form for person or tense.

      In English we only really have 'it' as the third person singular. In French they have 'il' (masculine it) and 'elle' (Feminine it). In Thai they have literally different hundreds of pronouns for stuff like 'things with handles', 'long thin things', 'containers', 'things with limbs that are not people'

      Language is so much more diverse than you would imagine if you don't study it.

      Interestingly, this does not make the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity) true.

      The structure of the language has little, if any, relationship to the deeper mental understanding of the 'way things work'

    5. Re:Valleys and Language by IntentionalStance · · Score: 1

      I'd mod that up if I could JoshuaZ - thanks for the link

    6. Re:Valleys and Language by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      I don't have the reference to hand but I recall there is a South American tribe which don't have words for left and right as most languages do.

      I don't think left & right are very intuitive. For most of my life I had to stop, close my eyes, imagine the plane of symmetry of my body, and ask myself which side of the plane something was on.

      Of course, that may have just been a cognitive disorder, rather than in indication that the distinction is unintuitive. Either way, I finally outgrew it.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    7. Re:Valleys and Language by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      I should have mentioned in the same post:

      I used to work in an environment where we assembled handrails, which came in mirror-image pairs based on where the bolt holes were located. Some people could glance at a scrambled pile of them and immediately pull out a symmetrical pair, but others would have to fish them out of the pile and put them side-by-side in order to determine whether two were the same or mirror images. And it didn't seem to have anything to do with how long they had been doing it.

      That doesn't seem like a task that depends on "smart", but rather, whether you can visualize an object and change its orientation in your mind. Perhaps it's learned, but it's not obvious why some people would learn it and others wouldn't - especially since the people who worked in the task described above seemed to either have it or not-have it, without regard to experience. So maybe it's easier to learn as a child, or maybe it's just an innate difference between people.

      Also oddly, IMO, is that I was one of the best at it, despite what I said about my difficulties with left-vs-right in the parent post.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    8. Re:Valleys and Language by Brian+Feldman · · Score: 1

      Even in math, we don't necessarily limit ourselves to Euclidean space. For every X/Y/Z, there's also a theta/phi/rho.

      --
      Brian Fundakowski Feldman
    9. Re:Valleys and Language by Animats · · Score: 2

      Hawaiian has a radial notion of location: makai, towards the sea, mauka, away from the sea. Rotational direction is expressed as toward one of a few key shore points.

    10. Re:Valleys and Language by orzetto · · Score: 1

      there's a Native American language that uses before and behind as an analog for time but the other way around to most languages. [...] forward = the past

      That's the same as English (before), French (avant), Latin (ante), German (vor), and even Esperanto (antaux). I think the logical and original thing would be forward = future, since you are moving towards it, but I am not aware of any language doing that, though I much prefer when languages have different words for space and time (e.g. Norwegian and Italian).

      --
      Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
    11. Re:Valleys and Language by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Is there a way to define left and right from first principles, and that isn't self referential or relies on an example like "left is *this* one"?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    12. Re:Valleys and Language by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      My wife does the same; she also defines "straight ahead" as being the way we should be going, even if it's at 90 degrees to the road we're currently on. Topological directions, a friend called it. But her sister (who doesn't speak English very well) gives perfectly understandable directions "left at the traffic light, in 50 metres turn right" etc.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    13. Re:Valleys and Language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The controversy about Everett isn't about his description of Pirahã, but about some of his conclusions because they challenge Chomskyanism. Chomskyanites have gone so far to accuse him of anti-Pirahã racism and have him banned from going back there, all because he was irreverent towards their prophet.
      languagelog post from back when the controversy started,
      March 2012 update (both by Geoff Pullum)

      What I like most about Dan Everett's story is how he went there as a missionary for SIL, but eventually they saved him from Christianism. "Who is this Jesus you're talking about? Have you met him? Have you met someone who did? Why should I be friends with some imaginary friend of yours?"

    14. Re:Valleys and Language by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      That's the same as English (before), French (avant), Latin (ante), German (vor), and even Esperanto (antaux). I think the logical and original thing would be forward = future, since you are moving towards it, but I am not aware of any language doing that, though I much prefer when languages have different words for space and time (e.g. Norwegian and Italian).

      My first birthday happened _before_ my second birthday. Both birthdays are long behind me now, but my 60th, 70th and 80th birthday are still before me.

    15. Re:Valleys and Language by Dripdry · · Score: 1

      I see you've figured out how to turn the tide in the upcoming political election...

      --
      -
    16. Re:Valleys and Language by loustic · · Score: 1

      There is a an excellent book explaining different systems to deal with spacial positioning: http://www.amazon.com/Through-Language-Glass-Different-Languages/dp/080508195X I won't summarize the book here, but think of a culture which uses only four cardinal points resembling our North South East West to describe positioning. This leads to funny situations when describing a painting or a TV scene, the direction depends on ... the position of the painting/TV ("the bad guy came from the East") as oposed to a relative positioning system ("the bad guy came from behind").

    17. Re:Valleys and Language by azcoyote · · Score: 1

      This is really more an issue of semiotics than mathematics. The study in the article is thus very misleading. It assumes that if the people use a different spatial analogy to represent time (the valley rather than the body's facing), then their concept of time itself is different. But an analogy is not equal to a base concept. The real test would be whether they are able to understand the facing metaphor or not, not whether it is lacking in their own culture. Moreover, the researchers seem to assume that their discussion of past, present, and future, is necessarily a discussion of time itself prior to all application. Their primary analogy may in fact pertain specifically to the past, present, and future of an individual person, and not to these concepts in themselves. A person's life may exhibit the curvature of a valley more than time itself. Likewise, it is no argument against numbers and lines being innate that children and uneducated adults do not respond to them in the same way as people in the U.S. This issue goes back to Plato. Plato talks about learning as "remembering" and understands the soul to preexist the body in order to explain the fact that people are able to come to geometric knowledge through logic even without it being thoroughly explained to them. Somehow, we are capable of understanding numbers and applying them to space even if we do not know the particular notations and expressions of the discipline of mathematics. In our postmodern age, people want to argue that all mathematics, even beyond its mere expression, is a cultural construction. But this simply is not evident.

      --
      Incipiamus, fratres, servire Domino Deo, quia hucusque vix vel parum in nullo profecimus.
    18. Re:Valleys and Language by neonsignal · · Score: 1

      These variations of spatial and temporal language are not uncommon.

      I lived for a time in a mountainous language area in Papua New Guinea, Awa tokples, where the basic greetings encoded whether the person being greeted came from uphill, downhill, or roughly level.There were also a number of language particles that encoded elevation and were used when giving directions. I am not aware of words for left and right (meaning direction, rather than hand).

      Some Aboriginal languages such as Guugu Yimithirr and Arrernte use compass directions rather than relative directions. The Levinson group at Nijmegen have devised psycholinguistic tests where subjects exhibit the cognitive difference between these absolute and relative systems (for example, in the order that one might recollect the placing of three different objects in a line after moving to a table placed at 180 degrees to the original one).

      Rafael Nunez and his team showed that amongst older speakers of the Chilean language Aymara, the psychological association of time with forward and backward is the reverse of the national language Spanish. Younger speakers tended to follow the Spanish mode rather than the original Aymara one.

    19. Re:Valleys and Language by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty good at the same kind of stuff. As a kid I spent a lot of time playing with a mirror, writing stuff backwards and holding it up, holding other objects up to it and looking at the same view of it transposed. They were fascinating to me for about a month. I also played with LEGO and other building systems and built symmetrical structures on multiple occasions... I wonder if I did all this because of some brain structure, or if I have some brain structure because of all this

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    20. Re:Valleys and Language by shiftless · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's definitely innate ability. I am the type of person like you describe, who can automatically visualize and orient stuff. I can read sentences, numbers, etc at any angle, upside down, sideways, etc almost as easily as right side up. I can look at a line, a picture hanging on the wall say, and instantly tell if it's crooked. I can pretty much visualize any object, or machine in my mind and visualize it functioning and working, rotating to different angles, etc just like it was sitting in front of me. I am really good at finding my way in the outdoors and rarely ever get lost.

      On the other hand....I had a friend who was always getting left and right confused. When working on cars it was especially problematic because half the time he'd accidently tighten instead of loosen, etc. Trying to give him directions to find some place or drive somewhere was worthless, even in a town he lived in his whole life; you had to show him where to go, and he'd get lost in the dumbest ways. When riding in the car don't say left or right.....you have to point, to avoid confusion.

      So yeah....there is a ton of differences in innate ability here.

  9. who proof reads these ? by wulfmans · · Score: 1

    From the main article. ""The Yupno people of New Guinea have provide clues to the origins of the number-line concept," Would it not be better to say. ""The Yupno people of New Guinea have provided clues to the origins of the number-line concept," Just asking a silly question here.

    1. Re:who proof reads these ? by sub67 · · Score: 1

      You're crazy, they both pass spell check!

      One could never be wrong.

  10. What is intuitive by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

    Figuring out what isn't intuitive isn't useful, unless we also know what is. Pie graphs for gas gauges, showing the shrinkage of the tank fractionally? Or a circle in a circle shrinking within the "full" one?

    "Also, we document that precise number concepts can exist independently of linear or other metric-driven spatial representations."

    But TFA doesn't mention any of them, or what we could change a gas gauge to to be intuitive.

    Perhaps one day they can figure out why my mother compulsively fills up once the gauge goes under 1/2, but my sister runs cars to empty on a regular basis, usually filling up only after the "e" is lit, sometimes long after.

    1. Re:What is intuitive by smileygladhands · · Score: 1

      I also fill up just under half a tank as well. My mom will drive until it is as low as possible.

    2. Re:What is intuitive by _merlin · · Score: 1

      It's sensible to keep your tank low - vehicles are more efficient if they aren't hauling extra fuel weight. Aircraft operators have this down to a fine art.

    3. Re:What is intuitive by Kinky+Bass+Junk · · Score: 1

      I believe it also keeps the fuel line cleaner to use up the older petrol before dumping new petrol on the top.

      --
      Anonymous Coward
    4. Re:What is intuitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wrong its better to never let the tank become regularly low as it is better to have any crap that's in there pass through as lots of small chunks rather than all at once just as the tank runs empty.

    5. Re:What is intuitive by Kinky+Bass+Junk · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the tip - I always seem to get incorrect advice from "mechanic" mates.

      --
      Anonymous Coward
    6. Re:What is intuitive by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

      It's sensible to keep your tank low - vehicles are more efficient if they aren't hauling extra fuel weight. Aircraft operators have this down to a fine art.

      I prefer to let it run reasonably low (but not so low as to risk getting stranded), then fill it all the way up.

      Because that means less stops at the pump.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    7. Re:What is intuitive by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      as a AC points out below your also sucking up sediment more often, though there is a balance ... I am just under a quater tank guy, and only right before I get home, that way the chunks of rubber pig, dirt, and general old rotten pipe/tank shit has time to settle down before I drive off in the morning.

    8. Re:What is intuitive by jabberw0k · · Score: 1

      I agree with your point, however: Where were you educated? Profanity is rude.

    9. Re:What is intuitive by swalve · · Score: 1

      Double wrong. Fuel tanks always pull from the bottom.

    10. Re:What is intuitive by cis4 · · Score: 1

      I've been told to keep the tank above half. Not because of efficiency or anything, but if there's a |insert natural disaster here|, you don't want to be stuck waiting in line for gas, or worse, unable to get gas because the gas stations are inoperable (or were swallowed up by the earth).

    11. Re:What is intuitive by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the tip - I always seem to get incorrect advice from "mechanic" mates.

      The best advice about fueling up I ever received was from a tire store manager -- one who would have reason to withhold this if he wanted more business.

      DON'T TOP OFF. When the pump stops the first time, hang it up. Thermal expansion can increase the volume of a full tank of morning-cool gasoline by a half gallon by afternoon. This then goes back up the fill pipe and out onto the tire below. He said it was no coincidence that I'd blown the right rear tire twice, but none of the others. I heeded his advice (and pass it along) and haven't had a catastrophic tire failure since.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    12. Re:What is intuitive by banjonz · · Score: 1

      It's sensible to keep your tank low - vehicles are more efficient if they aren't hauling extra fuel weight. Aircraft operators have this down to a fine art.

      I've heard its better to keep the tank near full in order to minimise the surface area inside the tank for condensation to form, this helping to prevent water from pooling at the bottom of the tank.

    13. Re:What is intuitive by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Gasoline is oxygenated so it expands a lot. My fueling tip is BUY A DIESEL

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  11. Seems Obvious by bazald · · Score: 1

    I have taught a number of people to code 2D and 3D games. Both 2D and 3D involve a lot of coordinate axis transformations that are almost universally non-intuitive at first. This is true in 2D despite there being a direct correlation between the data being mapped from the model/simulation to the screen (2D to 2D).

    This study finds it is non-intuitive to go from an abstract number or count to a line segment? Sure. What I'd like to see is the "sources of evidence [which] suggest that humans naturally associate numbers with space". They would surprise me.

    --
    Insert self-referential sig here.
    1. Re:Seems Obvious by Altrag · · Score: 1

      I think you'd need to break this down a bit further.

      I'm sure most people who grasp pixel coordinates in the physical screen will know that 3,3 corresponds to the third pixel down and the third pixel from the left.

      There's definitely no shortage of places to introduce confusion though:
      - General programming. Never mind abstract representations of the screen. We need to get past the abstract representation of instructions and commands first. I assume though that if you're jumping into games, that your students have at least a bit of programming knowledge.

      - The most basic. Computers count from zero, people count from one. Even experienced programmers screw this one up from time to time (leading to no shortage of one-off errors.) This could be considered vaguely cultural though as its not beyond reason to suggest that a child taught to start counting before placing the first marble down ("zero") would necessarily be worse or better than a child who starts counting after placing the first marble ("one"). We could probably be taught to count in hex instead of decimal too if we wanted, though algebra could be a bit frustrating if we don't make up new symbols for A-F!

      - Rotations. This isn't so much because the concept is unintuitive as much as is it because sine and cosine are fairly complex functions (in comparison to basic arithmetic at least) and the transformations are not easily calculable in your head -- at least not using an X,Y,Z coordinate plane. Adding angles in a polar coordinate system is a lot easier for people (but then you've got the downside that translation is a lot harder to do intuitively.)

      - Abstract spaces. This one still gets me often -- if you want to move the character "right", you have to move the space "left" is generally how things are setup (ie: your avatar is centered on the screen, and you're moving the world around behind it.) The nub on a basic scroll bar can be painful too for a similar reason -- the user drags the nub down, making the page scroll up. Even relatively simple abstract spaces like this can confuse people.

      But if you stick to moving the avatar along cardinal directions in a static space, I think your students would pick it up a lot easier (of course, that's a pretty big restriction on the types of games you can create.)

  12. agriculture by chichilalescu · · Score: 2

    Once a significant percentage of the population becomes interested in measuring pieces of land for various purposes, people will start associating numbers to lines.
    Because the amount of food is proportional to the surface of your land, and then... I personally feel it's quite natural, in this context, to associate numbers to geometrical constructs.

    --
    new sig
    1. Re:agriculture by jd · · Score: 1

      The tribe in TFA uses geometrical constructs, just not the same geometrical constructs we use. I found the conclusions drawn (eg: that mathematics isn't universal) to be suspect at best (using "up" and "down" to represent time rather than "forwards" and "backwards" does not mean that they cannot visualize sequential time - it may mean they use either logarithmic time or proportional time rather than linear time, but it's still a system in which all the usual mathematical rules apply).

      In fact, a system in which your fixed quantity covers the maximum range you are interested in at that time has definite benefits. It means you are always dealing in easily-managed quantities as opposed to our modern conventions where it is the units that are easily-managed. Indeed, this seems perfectly natural - in early recorded history, the number of "standard" units was extremely large (and not terribly standard), which can be regarded as a half-way house between a fixed number of values of an infinite number of units and an infinite number of values of a fixed number of units.

      I see nothing inconsistent, therefore, with what we historically know, or indeed with what we know about mathematics and visualization. (Basic geometry requires only a means of drawing an arc of fixed radius and a straight line, plus the ability to say if two things are equal or not equal. It does not require the ability to measure or quantify either the radius OR the lines in any absolute sense. It doesn't even require the ability to say if something is greater than or less than. Equal or not equal is sufficient. Since the tribe can conceptualize "higher than" and "lower than", it already has more comparative functions than is needed to do basic geometric construction and to make a number of the key discoveries documented by Euclid.)

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    2. Re:agriculture by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Once a significant percentage of the population becomes interested in measuring pieces of land for various purposes, people will start associating numbers to lines.

      For an exceedingly long time, property was noted by landmarks (big tree, river/stream, hill, large rock, fence)
      The notion of formally measuring out property lines is surprisingly recent.

      There are significant portions of various State borders which were officially deliniated by trees (which no longer exist) that had chunks hacked out.
      In the Old West, you could "stake your claim" by driving a stake, walking for a day, and driving another stake.
      And they certainly had the technology to properly survey these boundaries. It's existed since the 1500s.
      It's just that nobody was all that interested in taking the time to do it.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    3. Re:agriculture by shiftless · · Score: 1

      This was the exact problem the English had after they invaded Ireland, then tried to survey all the lands and document everything. They quickly found that the Irish notion of property rights and ownership of land varies considerably from the neat, tidy, regimented, calculated Norman English system (which in turn was inherited from the Roman Empire.)

  13. Ordered sets by overshoot · · Score: 1

    Show me a culture that doesn't have the concept of ordered sets -- which is all that a "number line" is.

    And, no, I don't mean the fancy mathematical formalism. I mean things like narratives, directions from A to B, etc.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    1. Re:Ordered sets by dcollins · · Score: 1

      Those things can be ordered in time without being mapped to space.

      (Especially if you don't have written language yet.)

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    2. Re:Ordered sets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you read the article, you'll see that the subjects of the study do understand order, but that they lack the intuition of another property of the number line that you are so accustomed to that you're not aware of it. When asked to place numbers from 1 to 10 in order, control subjects (from the US) produce an arrangement like this:

      1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10

      The people of the Yupno Valley tend to do something more like this:

      1.2.3.4...................5.6.7.8.9.10

      A number line has more than order; it also has equal spacing. That idea seems not to be innate.

    3. Re:Ordered sets by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Show me a culture that doesn't have the concept of ordered sets -- which is all that a "number line" is.

      No, the number line has a metric in addition to an ordering.

      There's a sort of hierarchy of these things, but I never can remember the terminology.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:Ordered sets by Brian+Feldman · · Score: 1

      You would probably quite enjoy Noam Chomsky's latest work, The Science of Language. In it, he claims nothing is innate except the concept of Merge. Basically, it is only set theory and construction/deconstruction based upon that. Counting numbers is not innate; it is consequential of a certain kind of indoctrination. All humans can potentially do it, but it is not something inborn. Likewise, all humans can learn a spoken/written/signed language, but it is not inborn.

      --
      Brian Fundakowski Feldman
    5. Re:Ordered sets by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      nominal, ordinal, interval, ratio?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:Ordered sets by cydmab · · Score: 1

      Black Parrot might be looking for the word "cardinal" (one, two, three, three and a half) versus "ordinal" (1st, 2nd, 3rd...)

    7. Re:Ordered sets by fbjon · · Score: 2

      I haven't read the book, but what about subitizing, i.e. the ability to "perceive" a small number of items? If a three-week old baby can subitize up to three objects, I'd say that's an inborn ability.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    8. Re:Ordered sets by HarryatRock · · Score: 1

      There have been many cultures in which the "uniqueness" of everything is way more important than the idea of grouping like things together in "sets". To then add "ordering" on to that concept would be entirely foreign. A narrative is not an "ordered" set of statements, rather a continuum of expression. I think that "sets" is an idea which requires a "discrete" approach to the world, which does not arise in cultures from "steady state" environments in which every day is the same as yesterday.

      --
      nec sorte nec fato
    9. Re:Ordered sets by firecode · · Score: 1

      This makes sense if you are considering only high-dimensional vectors/problems.

      With D-dimensional cube (lenghts = 1), you have almost everything near sides (10% from an edge).

      1.0''D - 0.9''D => 1 (so in the middle there is almost nothing when D is large)

      => boolean logic is good approximative solution for very high-dimensional problems but when the D is low (after preprocessing?) the values in the middle matter (use bayesian probabilistic methods).

    10. Re:Ordered sets by fotoguzzi · · Score: 1

      I just skimmed the article, but did they try 1........4 and then give someone two objects to place on the line somewhere?

      --
      Their they're doing there hair.
    11. Re:Ordered sets by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Yes, thanks.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  14. The number line does not work for me ... by Skapare · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... because I use complex numbers for everything, you insensitive clod. Don't you have any feelings for the one dimensionally-challenged?

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    1. Re:The number line does not work for me ... by goodgod43 · · Score: 1

      FTFY

      1+i dimensionally challenged.

      --
      "On the Internet, nobody can hear you being subtle." -Linus Torvalds
    2. Re:The number line does not work for me ... by ThorGod · · Score: 1

      'eh The complex numbers are (one) logical extension of the real number system (aka 'number line'). Can't have a complex plane without two real number lines.

      --
      PS: I don't reply to ACs.
    3. Re:The number line does not work for me ... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      'eh The complex numbers are (one) logical extension of the real number system (aka 'number line'). Can't have a complex plane without two real number lines.

      Or (for the anal retentive among us) one real number line and one imaginary number line.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:The number line does not work for me ... by ThorGod · · Score: 1

      C = cross product of R with R (where R represents the real numbers/'line') = { (a,b) such that a, b are in R }

      With the assumed property that (a1,b1) * (a2,b2) = ( (a1*a2-b1*b2), (b1*a2 + a1*b2) ) and + is defined 'as usual'.

      --
      PS: I don't reply to ACs.
    5. Re:The number line does not work for me ... by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Mod this sideways!

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  15. So what? by Trapick · · Score: 2

    What does it matter if it's intuitive? English (and any other language, though possibly not language in the abstract) is learned, and it works just fine.

    1. Re:So what? by mcavic · · Score: 1

      Right. The concept is intuitive, but putting it into words takes education, just like everything else.

  16. Logarithmic vs linear scale by tukang · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The same subject has been covered in "Here's looking to Euclid". It describes tests done on an Amazon tribe to see how they visually interpret numbers. Unlike most modern adults who visualize number spaced linearly, they visualized them spaced logarithmically. Their reasoning was that the intervals between numbers start (relatively) large and become smaller as the numbers get larger. i.e. from 1 to 2 it's a 100% increase but from 2 to 3 it's only a 33% increase and so on.

    1. Re:Logarithmic vs linear scale by rdebath · · Score: 1

      I think I'd disagree with you there, I know that one to ten or one to a hundred are "the same" it's true and I would suppose their intervals are the same. Perhaps it's something to do with multiplication tables.

      But large numbers are always logarithmic. People talk in 'thousands' and 'millions' and 'billions' you know intuitively that the difference between one million and one million and one is tiny even though you've been taught it's the same as between two and three.

      The only difference I see here is a matter of scale, one to a hundred are the same because we can see it; you can get a hundred pennies and put them on a multiplication table and see they're the same. But ask most people to visualise a million and you don't get a million pennies.

      PS: Check out the megapenny project to see how close you are.

    2. Re:Logarithmic vs linear scale by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In cultures that commonly use poison for arrows for hunting and native plants for ceremonies, perhaps logarithmic scales are important for dosing. That would make logarithmic measure a survival skill, and linear measure relatively irrelevant.

      A little of that root in the pot? The arrow does nothing. 10X? Perfect for paralyzing a monkey. 100X? The monkey meat tastes bad and makes you sick.

    3. Re:Logarithmic vs linear scale by jd · · Score: 1

      That makes perfect sense to me. However, precisely because it makes perfect sense, and because logarithmic scales work just fine mathematically, I have to dispute TFA's claim that mathematics is not a universal language. Linear scales may not be universal, but there doesn't seem to be a problem with mathematics itself. Even birds can handle basic mathematics (indeed, Alex the parrot is credited with discovering the concept of zero).

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    4. Re:Logarithmic vs linear scale by Dripdry · · Score: 1

      Makes sense from a food or birth point of view.
      1 to 2 takes more effort than 2 begetting one more to 3, and so on.

      --
      -
    5. Re:Logarithmic vs linear scale by del_diablo · · Score: 1

      I rather doubt that. Think about it: When was the last time you ever saw a human who truely understood just how much of a difference there truely are between 10^n and 10^(n+1)? Or how the square contra cube works..... If you have a extremely great understanding of how scaleing of gigant mechas works, you might point out that the amount of muscles contra amount of bones changed contra size changes proporationally.
      Linear measurement is also largely irrelevant to people. A day is eternity, but several days is just a unit of time. A hour is eternity, but a month is a rather fixed amount of time that will pass. Its also might be related to that the greatest problem of any task is to start working on it, but that would be dumping a hypotese onto a realwork phenomena without any research.

    6. Re:Logarithmic vs linear scale by tukang · · Score: 1

      well that's embarrassing

  17. Obviously? by GiMP · · Score: 1

    I imagine that a thickness gauge (which is what is *really* intuitive in the measuring-cup example) or a color-gauge would be more intuitive. The critical point here is that thicker is "more" and thinner is "less". Even with colors you can have "more red" or "less red". Numbers are a higher-form thought process. When dealing with a line system, your general intention is to gauge this same "more or less" comparions, but is abstracted through numbers which is based on a complex thought process of reading and comprehension.

  18. Useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Can they measure how much time of my life was wasted reading this stupid article? Thanks for the information about nothing...
    "Mathematics... is largely taught dogmatically, as objective fact, black and white, right/wrong," Nunez said. "But our work shows that there are meaningful human ideas in math, ingenious solutions and designs that have been mediated by writing and notational devices... Perhaps we should think about bringing the human saga to the subject – instead of continuing to treat it romantically, as the 'universal language' it's not. " ummm ok? someone didn't do well in algebra.
    whether anyone gets it or no one gets it, math is inherent and intrinsic in numbers.. 1 + 1 is 2 and 3+3 is 6, regardless of what words and symbols we use to describe it or what we know about it or don't.
    Obviously people don't automatically know it by design. Math, like any language, evolves and develops over time. Similar to researchers in other fields, mathematicians research and make discoveries about math and share their results, and those results spread into the collective human body of knowledge. It started out as nothing, then something really basic, and developed over... well, as long as there has been humanity. Math is a pure language because its rules exist on their own, by nature, not by human convention. Applications of the laws of math and numbers, such are rulers and gauges, are human convention - of course they aren't universally known abstracts. Nor is the concept of measuring. I'd bet tho, that given the right experiment, they would find that the people of Papua New Guinea do indeed have notions of amount, and measure.
    What next? Are they going to report that chemistry isn't universal because the people of Papua New Guinea don't have any concept of it?

    1. Re:Useless by Securityemo · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that numbers might be innate to the human perception of reality? If our brains worked differently we might use an entirely other way of viewing quantities that, for example, relies entirely upon geometry or some other, completely alien faculty not just for expression but for actually thinking about them - like those of a mind (hypothetically, that of a little green man from alpha centauri) that sees reality as a continuum and doesn't think about discrete objects or groupings as such. Who's to say that such a mind wouldn't have a more accurate view of reality?

      A friend of mine has dyscalculia, and he doesn't grasp arithmetic or more than very basic numeral manipulation - yet he obviously can judge quantities and can intuitively reason abstractly about logical relationships between things. He just can't do math like we others can.

      --
      Emotions! In your brain!
    2. Re:Useless by Altrag · · Score: 1

      You could consider a people who think in terms of geometry to be sure: 1point, 2line, 3triangle, 4square, 5pentagon, etc.

      The problem with any of these representations is that they don't scale. Its easy to tell a triangle from a square, but its not easy to tell a 999,999-sided object from a 999,998-sided object.

      I've read (and it was years ago, so I certainly don't have a reference!) that pretty much all cultures started off where this article talks about -- separations by coarse grouping.. "one", "a few", "a lot". The rest of the integers generally fill in from small to large with the scale of trade over time (greedy people have always been greedy, and people have never liked being shorted on either side of the transaction.)

      Fractions and groupings ("dozens") and much of the rest of basic arithmetic drop out pretty naturally once you've solidified your counting system.

      Basic geometry comes from a different angle (heh heh) -- construction -- and is not really any less of a natural evolution than counting (even if the builders don't realize what they're doing.)

      Much beyond that (even mixing counting and geometry to get standardized measures) requires some level of abstraction though.

  19. Re:A-ha! by PPH · · Score: 1

    Well, here in the USA, you certainly can eat it before you've paid for it.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  20. Management by PPH · · Score: 1

    In earlier research, Nunez found that the Aymara of the Andes seem to do the reverse, placing the past in front and the future behind.

    I've worked for a number of PHBs who seemed content with the future sneaking up behind them and smacking them in the back of the skull.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  21. Learned vs. Innate Intuition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm tired of all the BS splitting hairs over whether something is "intuitive" or not.

    Intuitive just means: given your current knowledge, does the thing make immediate sense? If so, it's intuitive.

    Very few things are innate. You learn the rest, even if you don't realize that you learned it somewhere. Maybe you saw someone else do it, or maybe you deduced it from other things you already knew. But once you learned the concept, if you can always apply it without thinking, then it's intuitive.

    Think of it like mathematical axioms/proofs. You start with a few axioms. As you learn, you gain some new theorems that are so elegant to use that you end up using them as frequently as axioms. These special theorems are what we call "intuitive" facts; they allow us to quickly and "intuitively" deduce things that would be difficult to prove all the way from axioms.

    p.s. Intuition is also based on guesswork. For example, suppose you guessed the right theorem(s) to complete the proof; if you guessed right the first time (or 'quickly enough'), then you'll describe the proof as intuitive. If you had to try N different things and finally get an "aha" to use unexpected Theorem XYZ, then it's not intuitive.

  22. Americans don't understand number lines either by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Informative

    In the original task, people are shown a line and are asked to place numbers onto the line according to their size, with "1" going on the left endpoint and "10" (or sometimes "100" or "1000") going on the right endpoint.

    Go to a class of college students in america, ask them to mark 10, 1 million, and 1 billion on a line, and 99% of them will draw 1 million closer to 1 billion. Usually a lot closer.

    I read the article, and it wasn't clear to me what these people have discovered. Maybe I'll have to read the actual study. Or maybe anthropologists are better at understanding primitive cultures than their own.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:Americans don't understand number lines either by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      Are you sure? Is there a study?

      That just doesn't seem obviously true (or false) to me. It's somewhat justifiable on a logarithmic axis too.

    2. Re:Americans don't understand number lines either by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what your question is.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re:Americans don't understand number lines either by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      I'm asking whether you can back this statement up:

      "Go to a class of college students in america, ask them to mark 10, 1 million, and 1 billion on a line, and 99% of them will draw 1 million closer to 1 billion. Usually a lot closer."

    4. Re:Americans don't understand number lines either by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Oh, I read it in a book a number of years ago, someone who actually did do that frequently. I thought about it and realized that yes, if I didn't stop and calculate, if I followed my gut feeling, I would have drawn them in very wrong places as well. I've asked a couple people to try that experiment, but never a whole class.

      Try it yourself. If you get a different result, that would be interesting. Come and report.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  23. Counting and measurement are distinct concepts by FoolishOwl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't know why this result is surprising. I thought it was generally understand that counting (there are 10 sheep) and measurement (this fence is 10 feet long) were distinct concepts. The point of the number line is to establish a relationship between the two concepts.

    Come to think of it, it should be obvious that a number line relates two distinct concepts, just from the form they usually take. A number line, with its regularly spaced markings perpendicular to the main line, has a form similar to that of a line graph, which shows a relationship between two distinct variables.

    1. Re:Counting and measurement are distinct concepts by chichilalescu · · Score: 1

      Counting and measurement are the same thing, by definition of "measurement". When you measure something, you just count the number of units.

      --
      new sig
    2. Re:Counting and measurement are distinct concepts by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      Counting and measurement are the same thing, by definition of "measurement". When you measure something, you just count the number of units.

      Only if you've internalized the concept of the number line.

      Counting is concerned with discrete values. Measurement is concerned with continuous values. Consider counting sheep in a pen. You'd be using integers -- it doesn't make sense to talk about a fraction of a sheep, except as a joke. Each sheep is understood as a discrete entity, and the number of sheep will be a particular value from a discrete range of values. Now, imagine measuring out some rope. Say you measure out ten meters of rope. You know it's not going to be exactly ten meters -- it will be a little less, or a little more. You can trim off half a meter, a quarter, or any fraction, down to the limits of your perception. You understand the length of the rope to be a particular value in a continuous range of values.

      In fact, underneath the unifying metaphor of the number line, we're still talking about different sorts of numbers. Integers are understood as a subset of real numbers, but there are reasons to make the distinction. It's been no small puzzle, to mathematicians, philosophers, and scientists, whether the underlying structure of reality ultimately resolves to discrete values or continuous values.

    3. Re:Counting and measurement are distinct concepts by chichilalescu · · Score: 1

      no, you're wrong. when the hunter gatherer decides whether or not to make camp in a clearing, they need to count how many tents will fit into the area, i.e. measure the area with the unit "tent"; they will round down to get the maximum number of tents. when they decide to call friends in order to carry pieces of a kill back to the village, they divide the weight of the kill by the quantity that one friend can carry; they will round up to get the minimum number of friends.
      measurement is counting, even if you round the result up or down.
      personally, I think there are problems with the methods used by the researchers for this result. even if they were right and these people don't see that integers have the same properties as certain points on a straight line, it would still be irrelevant with respect to the naturalness of putting numbers on a line. It would just mean they didn't need to work with numbers a lot.

      --
      new sig
    4. Re:Counting and measurement are distinct concepts by Baby+Duck · · Score: 1

      "measurement is counting"

      But counting is not measurement. I can count the number of planets in the solar system. It does nothing to measure (neither absolutely or relatively) their speed, rotation, density, size, distance from one another, etc.

      --

      "Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins

    5. Re:Counting and measurement are distinct concepts by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's been no small puzzle, to mathematicians, philosophers, and scientists, whether the underlying structure of reality ultimately resolves to discrete values or continuous values.

      ISTR a quantum unit of time has been found... which points sharply in the discrete direction. But maybe that's only at this level of perception.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  24. Re:That's not challenging the mainstream by mevets · · Score: 2

    Fixed measurements, such as a number line or the 'natural numbers' offer a poor model of reality. Comparing apples to apples; few are equal. Some are bigger, more bruised, less ripe, more bitter.
    Hardly anything could be more alien than Euclidean space - we live on a mottled sphere. Straight lines are very much the exception.
    While convenient, 'intuitive' or 'natural' are hardly the best way to describe abstract shortcuts.

  25. I find them unintuitive by Fished · · Score: 1

    Oddly enough, I was telling my girlfriend just tonight that I'm not very visual, and tend to approach concepts best through symbols (numbers, words, etc.) I've always found graphical representations of math more-or-less useless (although they are cool sometimes) and prefer my math without the diagrams. She told me that I'm deeply weird. :)

    --
    "He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
    1. Re:I find them unintuitive by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Oddly enough, I was telling my girlfriend just tonight that I'm not very visual, and tend to approach concepts best through symbols (numbers, words, etc.) I've always found graphical representations of math more-or-less useless (although they are cool sometimes) and prefer my math without the diagrams. She told me that I'm deeply weird. :)

      Many educators think people have different learning modalities (hearing, seeing, touching, etc.), and suggest combining all of them when teaching, so that all the learners can benefit from what works best for them.

      OTOH, some people think the whole idea is a crock. I don't have any opinion, though your anecdote seems to support the idea.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    2. Re:I find them unintuitive by SebastianJB · · Score: 1

      I used to feel the same way, but more recently I've been discovering just how powerful visualization is. It's another tool to throw in your arsenal, and it makes math much more intuitive and much less computational.

    3. Re:I find them unintuitive by dargaud · · Score: 1

      If you want unintuitive graphics, try UML. I went to a one week embedded programing course (which I've been doing professionally in C for 25 years) that was taught entirely in UML and I felt like I was at an alchemy symposium. Boxes with variously shaped arrows criss-crossing everywhere. Not spaghetti code, but a whole plate of spaghetti. Didn't understand a thing.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    4. Re:I find them unintuitive by VortexCortex · · Score: 2

      My little brother was having problems with vector math. So, I threw together a vector visualiser in my game engine, and illustrated basic vector primitives, and operations. Within 15 minutes of moving them around on the screen and seeing the values and vectors change he understood normalising, and dot and cross products, as well as trigonomic primitives like sine and cosine, and tangent. I showed him how dot products are used to cull faces in games, and in lighting equations, and how cross products make homing missiles work. I even showed him operations involving a unit-Quaternion, and while he didn't completely grasp the mathematics behind it, he understood how to work the numbers and what he could use them for.

      He told me that he learned more about geometry and numbers in an hour at the computer than he had in his entire schooling of 10 years...

      Of course, when he gets to higher dimensions, this may prove more difficult. The point being: Humans are tool using creatures. Math that's taught for the sake of learning without any direct application holds no inherent value for us. "When will I ever use this in real life," crosses EVERYONE's mind at some point. We need a better answer than silence. Also: Watching an animation is far more informative than reading a book -- We have the technology. Kids LOVE games. This isn't rocket science people... It's quite obvious what needs to happen.

      In the summer between 6th and 7th grade I independently invented trigonometry while manually mapping line slopes to angles trying to make a space ship game in BASIC (with LINETO, MOVETO) -- The sin, cos, atan2, etc. functions didn't have good descriptions of what they were used for -- They were tools that I hadn't yet learned to use, so I created my own. Trigonometry (or 'length/slope/angle' ratios as I called it) was obvious to me as a 11 year old, simply because I could map the relationships between sets of numbers on my computer in real time...

      IMOH, we shouldn't be teaching math without also teaching a bit of simple computer programming, or at least using SOME animated application to utilise the new tools with. In this day and age who wouldn't benefit from being able to tell their computers how to automate simple tasks?

    5. Re:I find them unintuitive by Geeky · · Score: 1

      She was hearing you say "it doesn't matter that you're not attractive, because visual appearances don't matter to me". In other words, you just called her fat and ugly ;-)

      --
      Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
    6. Re:I find them unintuitive by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      Maybe it is innate for some people and not for some others. Wouldn't be the first time.

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
  26. Typing on a computer isn't "innate" by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 2

    Neither is reading. Human beings evolved to see "in the round" and not in focused linear scans. When we were children, both my sister and I went through periods when we were just learning to write where we wrote everything "exactly" backwards, like a mirror image. And, it wasn't all the time. We both outgrew it very quickly, but I'm sure it's been studied by some -ologist out there.

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  27. Numberwang? by x0 · · Score: 1

    Seriously, I can't be the only one who read the title and thought: Numberwang! m

    --
    In the immortal words of Socrates, who said; 'I drank what?'
  28. Old news - again. by DrCJM · · Score: 1

    http://alexbellos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/maths.pdf

    Log scale = intuitive (ratios - there's twice as many of those as these)

    Numberline != intuitive (counting, ordering etc.)

  29. follows logical from the field axioms by ThorGod · · Score: 1

    Logical or not, the number line is equivalent to a finite list of axioms (field axioms, look 'em up, maybe with some stuff I forget atm). When we accept the truth of those axioms, all at once, then we begin studying 'the number line'.

    Personally, studying unintuitive concepts via the language of mathematics interests me. That's how mathematics allows you to expand the list of things that you find intuitive. First, only the abstract language of mathematics describes some logical object. The logical object itself may or may not be 'intuitive' from the outset. Eventually, after studying a logical concept via math for a time, I can eventually gain some intuition concerning the object. I've done this with the real and complex number systems (separately), partial and ordinary differential equations, vector/inner product spaces, mathematical knots, and etc.

    PS If you're looking for a way to study calculus or the real numbers in a "more intuitive sense", I suggest you look up the hyperreal number system.

    --
    PS: I don't reply to ACs.
    1. Re:follows logical from the field axioms by ThorGod · · Score: 1

      oops - that should be "follows logically" not "follows logical"...

      --
      PS: I don't reply to ACs.
    2. Re:follows logical from the field axioms by FrootLoops · · Score: 1

      You're probably talking about the fact that an ordered field with the least upper bound property is equivalent to the real numbers (formal details here). Strictly speaking the axioms don't imply the existence of a system that satisfies them. Some construction is necessary, though several standard approaches can be carried out with only appeals to highly intuitive bits of set theory.

      The list of axioms I linked isn't intuitive in the "nigh universally innate" sense. However, I've developed a fair amount of intuition regarding them. Their machine-like formal representation is not even remotely how I think about them, though it offers a compact and above all perfectly clear way to communicate.

    3. Re:follows logical from the field axioms by BitterOak · · Score: 1

      You're probably talking about the fact that an ordered field with the least upper bound property is equivalent to the real numbers

      True, the gp must be talking about a complete, ordered field, as there exist non-ordered fields (such as the complex numbers) whose members do not map neatly to points on a line, and some but not all ordered fields do: archimedian ordered fields, such as the rational and real numbers can be plotted on a line, but non-archimedian ordered fields, like the field of rational functions (ordered by the signs of the leading coefficient in the numerator when the leading coefficient in the denominator is positive) also do not fit neatly on a line as we understand it. A complete ordered field is necessarily archimedian, as it is isomorphic to the real number system.

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    4. Re:follows logical from the field axioms by ThorGod · · Score: 1

      You're probably talking about the fact that an ordered field with the least upper bound property is equivalent to the real numbers

      Yes..."without loss of generality" we can name any ordered field the real number system, for convenience. Thanks for completing my reference.

      --
      PS: I don't reply to ACs.
  30. Stopped reading at first paragraph by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Over the past thirty years I have been writing, speaking, and consulting about technology-driven trends that are coming but difficult for most people to see. Back in 2000, I wrote about one such trend that would hit about now, and here we are, on the brink of experiencing a technology that will provide new opportunities for IT to add strategic value and competitive advantage: ultra-Intelligent electronic agents."

    I stopped reading the article after this first paragraph about awesome the author thinks he is, and his claim of IT consulting, predicting tech trends since at least 1982.

    1. Re:Stopped reading at first paragraph by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      haha that's funny. he predicted something in 2000 that still hasn't come, that was predicted in tech magazines back in 1985!

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  31. Natural != innate by rcasha2 · · Score: 1

    The concept may not be innate, and is learned, but it can still be natural. The symbol for a full/empty battery does not resemble how a real battery drains. It represents how a cup or container looks when it's full, half-empty or empty. I say that's quite natural.

  32. I have Spatial Sequence Synesthesia by pigwiggle · · Score: 2

    as well as number form and personification. Numbers - depending on if they are simply numbers or dates - have a specific "geography", color, and personality.

    --
    46 & 2
    1. Re:I have Spatial Sequence Synesthesia by pigwiggle · · Score: 2

      Well, I stand corrected then. I didn't realize AC was the final arbiter on what is or is not synesthesia. I'm sure the medical community was pleased to have been rid one more burden.

      --
      46 & 2
    2. Re:I have Spatial Sequence Synesthesia by pigwiggle · · Score: 2

      Decades, months, and days of the week all have specific shapes, locations, and colors. They have always been the same as far as I can remember. Numbers you would use in calculating things have color, albeit past 10 they group in 10s. That is all the 20s are a yellow orange color, 30s purple blue, and so on. The personality of numbers is entirely about if they are prime or have prime factors or are odd. It's a simple good and bad type thing. 3 and 7 are sinister, 9 more so, 21 also. All are odd and are prime or have prime factors.

      --
      46 & 2
  33. ask your non-nerd friends by gavare · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I once took a course in "Math philosophy" (a simple introduction course, with e.g. Gödel numbers, introduction to infinity, and things like that), and at the end of that course we were asked to write about something. I decided to ask friends about how they viewed numbers. To my surprise, everyone had pretty much their own unique way. I think I asked about 10 people. Some viewed numbers as colors ("the number 2 is of course blue" or something along that line), some viewed the numbers as on a traditional line, one guy thought of the numbers as being in a circle and you took one out as you wanted to use it and then had to put it back. Not everyone included the number zero (or negative numbers) in their explanation. My self, I see the natural numbers on a line, but the line has "angles" at the numbers 10 and 20. Perhaps this is because in my native language, the spoken words for 10..19 are not constructed in the same simple manner as 30..39, 40..49, and so on.

    1. Re:ask your non-nerd friends by ledow · · Score: 2

      And how many thought in binary? Although I don't count every day in binary (the indoctrination into the decimal system is almost impossible to avoid in the Western world), I often catch myself finding binary patterns and thinking about things in a binary way (and if someone asks me to remember a number, the best way is to try to calculate its binary expression - the calculation and the resulting string fix into my memory a lot easier). Hell, when I run out of fingers counting in decimal, it's easier for me to switch to binary (and then I can get up to 1024 on my fingers alone!).

      I have used binary and boolean algebra to explain to my child that when I say "would you like an ice cream or some sweets" that it's an exclusive-OR.

      And, it's been said a million times but it deserves reiteration, two people NEVER LEARN THE SAME WAY. They don't. It's impossible. Their brains are completely different and had different experiences and react to new experiences differently.

      Trying to teach "the one true way" means you shouldn't be teaching. There are much more important things that we use to teach children that are deserving of much more attention (there are much more intuitive and effective number systems entirely, multiplication and division methods, etc.). The problem is, do we get to adulthood and NOT understand those things? My Italian girlfriend still laughs because I jokingly pretended to use the "crocodiles" that I was taught existed on the ends of the greater-than, less-than operators once. She finds it hilarious but I after the concept is embedded, you don't need the analogy any more and never think about it.

      I don't not see little numbers bouncing along lines when I do addition, nor do I see little columns marked with powers of 2 in binary, nor do I need to formulate a problem involving sweetshops and unpriced bags to solve a simultaneous equation. So I doubt that the entire way we teach children about numbers is really worth overhauling globally on the word of one guy who did a (very poor) study in one area.

    2. Re:ask your non-nerd friends by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      Fascinating. When I was a kid numbers used to talk and fight with each other. Some numbers were good and some were bad. Not sure that's a very useful way to think of numbers because I am horrid at arithmetic.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re:ask your non-nerd friends by EricScott · · Score: 1

      I keep thinking about poor number 9.

      "Why is 6 afraid of 7" ?

      "Because 7 ate 9".

    4. Re:ask your non-nerd friends by rdnetto · · Score: 1

      Is the perception context-dependant though? I never visualise numbers (trying to visualise an abstract concept just limits you to 3 or fewer dimensions), but trying to do so just now I used number lines for addition/subtraction, and perpendicular lines for multiplication/division. Once I reach complex numbers, everything just becomes a vector.

      --
      Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
  34. Intuition by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

    Many things that we consider intuitive, are not. For instance, if you give most children some numbered cards, and tell them to put them in order, they will lay them out from left to right, and intuitively assume that anyone else would do the same. But an Arabic person would probably lay them out from right to left, and a Chinese child would likely lay them out from top to bottom. An Australian aborigine child would most likely lay them out from east to west.

  35. Re:Education system corrupted, continuum hypothesi by FrootLoops · · Score: 1

    The continuum hypothesis has nothing to do with the calculus taught in high school, or this article for that matter. I like talking about math, though, so for those who don't know, here's a non-technical explanation of the continuum hypothesis.

    (1) "smaller" sets: A set is a particular group of objects (numbers, fruit, names, your Toyota, etc.). Given two sets, we say the first is smaller than the second if (a) we can assign to each object in the first a corresponding, unique object in the second, yet (b) we cannot assign to each object in the second a unique object in the first. For instance, {1, 2, 3} is smaller than {apple, 1, Karen, Jim} since we can pair up 1 with apple, 2 with 1, and 3 with Karen, but any attempt to pair in the other direction will necessarily fail by using one of the numbers 1, 2, or 3 twice, breaking uniqueness. The good part of this definition is that it also makes sense for infinite sets, which is where the "just count it" definition breaks down.

    (2) An unintuitive example: The natural numbers are just the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, .... They form an infinite set. The integers are just the numbers ..., -5, -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, .... The integers contain the naturals so one might expect the naturals to be smaller than the integers. This is *not* the case, since I can pair each integer with a unique natural as follows:

    0 with 1
    1 with 2
    -1 with 3
    2 with 4
    -2 with 5 ...

    Thus (b) cannot be satisfied since the pairing attempt does not always fail.

    (3) Real numbers: The real numbers are fractions like 4/5 together with the irrationals like pi or Sqrt(2). These also form an infinite set and again contain the naturals. However, they are "large" enough so that the naturals are smaller than the reals in the sense above; this is the content of Cantor's Diagonal Argument.

    (4) The Continuum Hypothesis states that there is *no* set S where both (a) the naturals are smaller than S and (b) S is smaller than the reals. Intuitively, there is no "size" strictly between the naturals and the reals.

    It turns out the Continuum Hypothesis is neither provable nor falsifiable under standard but technical assumptions; one can assume either its truth or falsehood without creating contradictions. It's probably the most famous example of an "undecidable" statement. In my experience, though it doesn't come up much among non-set theorists, there's no general consensus on which path to take. I suppose I lean towards accepting the generalized continuum hypothesis since it collapses down the hierarchy in an appealing way while also giving the axiom of choice as a bonus (which I actually "believe").

  36. Lingala and time by spectrokid · · Score: 2

    In Lingala (Kingshasa area in Congo), they only have one word which both means "yesterday" and "tomorrow". Basically things happen today or they happen not-today. This kind of makes sense in a climate that has no cold and hot season, and where it is useless (or even a very bad idea) to do typical northern stuff like plan way ahead, conserve food or make warm clothes. Most pre-Columbus south american indians saw time as a strictly circular thing, with everything always comming back.

    --

    10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then

  37. That was the Peano Construction, not ZFC by TheEmperorOfSlashdot · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It also contains an error: Peano defined 2 as { {}, {{}} } = {0,1}. 3 is 2 U {2} = { 2, 1, 0 }. Larger numbers are defined inductively as (n+1) := n U {n}.

    You can tell it was supposed to be the Peano construction (and not something else) because the GP defined zero as the empty set and 2 as {0,1}. The error was to also define 2 as {{{}}}, which is clearly not equivalent to {0,1} (since the former set has cardinality 1 and the latter has cardinality 2).

    This is an incredibly common mistake even for math undergrads and good evidence that set theory really isn't very intuitive. There's a reason New Math failed.

    1. Re:That was the Peano Construction, not ZFC by theshibboleth · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't make any generalizations based on my error; truth be told I'm no expert at set theory; I know enough to know that there is a relation between sets and the natural numbers. Of course this is a really important part of set theory so the error is significant. This is not evidence based, but I think sets are rather intuitive; it's the notation that trips me and other undergrads up. (Also reading some of the related articles in the comments, it seems this is true of some indigenous peoples as well; they can use numbers abstractly in their heads even without having the words for it as long as some less abstract method is used to test that ability--like having groups of rocks, etc. stand for the numbers and then repeating a sound and asking how many times it was repeated, as opposed to the subject counting on their fingers which doesn't necessarily correspond to some internal concept of the number.)

  38. Integer vs reals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I guess that a line only makes sense once you get to fractions. When you work with Integers, it's more intuitive to think of distinct objects.

  39. It wasn't the notation that tripped you. by TheEmperorOfSlashdot · · Score: 1

    The Emperor has tutored many people in set theory and seen that exact error many times. You made the mistake because the idea of computing the union of sets of sets (as opposed to sets of "objects" (ur-elements)) is very non-intuitive, and requires a significant leap of abstract thinking.

  40. The point of number line is not to teach numbers by Hentes · · Score: 1

    The point of number line is not to teach numbers but to show the analogy between numbers and distances/segments, connecting geometry and arithmetics. And for that purpose, it's perfect.

  41. They have the problem ass backwards. by janimal · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well, numbers are abstract. I'm not sure how a number line representation, which can take real shape would be an intuitive extension of an artificial concept. It isn't. Actually, it's the other way around, I would think. The number lines help us understand numbers and it's numbers that aren't intuitive.

    1. Re:They have the problem ass backwards. by mark-t · · Score: 1

      In any set of things, regardless of what they are, there is a inescapable concept of quantity, or cardinality. Natural numbers are a direct measure of how far from empty or nothing such a quantity of something is.

      I'm pretty sure they aren't abstract. They are called "natural" for a reason.

    2. Re:They have the problem ass backwards. by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      I"d venture a guess that nothing in mathematics in intuitive, except for bare pattern seeking.

    3. Re:They have the problem ass backwards. by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      Q: How many lines are there in a number line?

      A: One.

      So how can it be intuitive for a single line to represent an arbitrary range of quantities? Three apples exist in nature. There is evidence that the human brain can recognise the quantity. In fact, I believe dogs and parrots have been shown to have an internal concept of "3". But where does a concept like the number line occur in nature...?

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    4. Re:They have the problem ass backwards. by Altrag · · Score: 1

      Put those three apples side by side.

      You now have a very small (and very coarse) number line, but a number line nonetheless.

      If you take that to a not terribly far-fetched example and say we have 50 apples, and by some fluke of nature the apples in your part of the world are all fairly consistent in size. Now you line up your 50 apples and mark the two ends with whatever marking you like.

      You can now use those markings to measure a completely different set of apples. Say, if you were looking to purchase apples from various farmers around your village. You've just saved yourself a lot of counting time, and your simple number line has now gone one step further and become a measuring ruler.

      (Ok so its a little far-fetched. Apples would more likely be measured in 3 dimensions in a crate, or by weight, but it could well be done linearly if you didn't know how to build crates or scales.)

    5. Re:They have the problem ass backwards. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Things aren't regularly spaced in nature. They don't occur based on a measurement. This thing is this size because this thing next to it or this element of the environment in which it formed. So actually, numbers are more intuitive than the idea of a ruler, let alone an abstract number line with equal spacing. This has been touched upon in other comments; we "naturally" space numbers evenly because we're taught that way. Other people "naturally" space them someplace in the middle because to them, numbers higher than four or six or whatever are imaginary. Maybe it's based on the hand, or maybe on the number of hunters in a party, or whatever. We need bigger numbers so we've learned to apprehend them, we have tools for doing this which we've learned and which we teach.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:They have the problem ass backwards. by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      But the line of apples isn't a natural phenomenon -- someone has to consciously line them up. That makes even a physical line of apples an abstraction, rather than a natural phenomenon. An abstract representation of an abstract phenomenon is a second-order abstraction. A second-order abstraction is never intuitive.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    7. Re:They have the problem ass backwards. by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      The number is an abstraction. When you count, you are determining cardinality by forming a bijection between the members of the set and the first numbers in the number system. 101 is abstract. 101 Dalmatians is concrete.

  42. It's not just Yupno Valley - Seattle too by dbIII · · Score: 3, Funny

    I'm not sure if they've fixed it yet, but the defaults for line charts in MS Excel were insanely set to have equal spacing between data points on one axis no matter what values they have.
    Thus you could have an axis that looked like:
    1 4 7 8 14 35
    IMHO that sort of defeats the purpose of a line graph. I can userstand linear or log scales but a random changing scale is pointless.

    1. Re:It's not just Yupno Valley - Seattle too by Dachannien · · Score: 2

      I'm not sure if they've fixed it yet, but the defaults for line charts in MS Excel were insanely set to have equal spacing between data points on one axis no matter what values they have.

      That's what happens when you take the programmer who worked on Windows progress bars and tell him to use his talents on Excel graphs.

    2. Re:It's not just Yupno Valley - Seattle too by jonnythan · · Score: 2

      The line charts use the x-values as labels only. The scatter plots interpret the x-values as quantities. That's why both exist in Excel.

    3. Re:It's not just Yupno Valley - Seattle too by MadKeithV · · Score: 2

      That's what happens when you take the programmer who worked on Windows progress bars and tell him to use his talents on Excel graphs.

      I hear he's still working on it, but he's about 90% done.

    4. Re:It's not just Yupno Valley - Seattle too by greyblack · · Score: 1

      MS Excel was written by the people of the Yupno Valley?

      That explains a lot...

      --
      Everybody uses broad generalizations.
    5. Re:It's not just Yupno Valley - Seattle too by toddestan · · Score: 1

      I hear he's still working on it, but he's about 90% done.

      Really? Because he was 90% done 2 years ago.

    6. Re:It's not just Yupno Valley - Seattle too by eriqk · · Score: 1

      That was last year, a month ago he had progressed to 45%.

  43. Re:The point of number line is not to teach number by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    The point of number line is not to teach numbers but to show the analogy between numbers and distances/segments, connecting geometry and arithmetics. And for that purpose, it's perfect.

    But it is pretty good at demonstrating why addition and subtraction are inverse operations, and getting started on negative numbers.

  44. Re:Education system corrupted, continuum hypothesi by FrootLoops · · Score: 1

    It gets really unintuitive if you go to the rational numbers which are dense.

    Actually I disagree. There is a simple way to visualize the countability of the rationals, which is a variation on the following (I believe standard) enumeration that I won't formalize:
    1/2
    1/3, 2/3
    1/4, 2/4, 3/4
    1/5, 2/5, 3/5, 4/5 ...
    I realize numbers are repeated but it's simple conceptually to cut out the duplicates and, if you want, to repeat the process in each interval [n, n+1]. The picture corresponding to the version I've written is of course equally spaced points with ever finer spacing, and for any rational number with a given denominator that number will be hit at that denominator's stage.

    By "unintuitive" I meant that, for finite sets, proper subsets are smaller in the sense above, whereas infinite sets do not possess this familiar property. Of course it's subjective :).

    And of course once you are there, with a dense set of numbers, it is completely unintuitive that you can still put numbers "in between". And even more numbers than you already have.

    Hmm... sorry, I again disagree. Rational numbers have repeating decimal expansions; if this fact is intuitive (I believe it is, though a rigorous proof may not be), then picking a number that doesn't have a repeating decimal expansion (easy to do) means you've picked an irrational, so there are numbers "between" the rationals. I would at least find it quite weird if the set of infinite binary strings and the set of finite binary strings had the same cardinality--I would very much want to know the injection. Since I find the converse of Cantor's conclusion unintuitive, I find Cantor's conclusion intuitive. Again, though, the phrase is subjective.

  45. Wrong questions by jandersen · · Score: 2

    We don't stop to wonder: Is it 'natural'? Is it cultural?

    'Cultural' is natural for us humans, so it is a daft question. A better question would be to ask whether this is something we are most likely to have learned through our early experience - and how. And I think the answer is likely to be that we learn the idea of "moreness" being a continuous thing from observing varying amounts of things - water in a glass etc, or the length of a piece of string; these concepts are clearly learned as and when you learn the words to describe them - ie. it is 'cultural'.

    But many - maybe most - animals have the ability to gauge the relative size of things, and some, like the corvids - even seem able to count. Thus that would count as a 'natural' ability, I suppose.

    The case with the Yupno seems to be that measurements aren't needed in their culture; one can muse over where that need arises from - it could be a result of trade, perhaps?

    1. Re:Wrong questions by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      indeed, language is largely cultural though some small subset of communication appears to be instinctive (e.g. laughing, crying)

  46. Neither is walking... by k31 · · Score: 1

    ... I mean, what next, "walking is not intuitive?"

    Humans have to learn most things which we take for granted,
    it really is important to give children under seven a good, well-rounded exposure,
    possibly even including wrestling wild boar
    (jk about the boar).

  47. So someone is bullshitting by wamatt · · Score: 1

    No I haven't read the article, but a "study" claiming x is not "intuitive", I find highly suspect.

    The reason you can't define intuitive, is because we don't know what the word means yet.

    Furthermore it has been used to describe multiple mental processes.

    I mean many call the iPhone "intuitive", and I'm pretty fucking sure we weren't born with Apple in our DNA.

  48. The Plural of Anectdote is not Data by pz · · Score: 2

    I read the article pointed to in the summary (which is a summary of the scholarly article). The study authors seem to have confused the idea that finding a single population that behaves this way (not arranging piles of oranges linearly along a line according to the number of oranges in a pile) with determining true innate human behavior. Find another dozen isolated groups, and then maybe. Find groups that have been only recently isolated and it will be more impressive.

    --

    Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
  49. hear that facebook? by Cyko_01 · · Score: 1

    timeline is stupid and now we have studies to prove it!

  50. Duh. by jonadab · · Score: 2

    Of course it's learned. We teach it in school, every year, from somewhere around second grade right on up through college. Obviously it's learned.

    Is that supposed to have some kind of significance? I don't see it. Virtually everything we know is learned. Arithmetic is learned. Color is learned. Language is learned. Food preferences are learned, including even the ability to tell the difference between food and non-food. The notion that a stove burner is hot and you don't want to put your hand on it is learned.

    --
    Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
  51. Re:Caring ? by HarryatRock · · Score: 1

    I for one have not stopped caring about the problem of numbers, and I am sure I am not alone. It's not a problem that sees much in the way of publication, probably because there hasn't been that much progress and it's not a study likely to get your Phd. It's the sort of problem that sits on the back burner until some genius comes up with a new insight.
    Part of the problem with this thread is that there are different meanings being attached to the symbol "number". The "1" in 1 sheep is probably intuitive, the 1 in {0,1} is probably not, yet both might reasonably be called "numbers". As for the "number line", I think that "things laid out in a line to see how many I've got" is innate, and may even be so for animals such as cats and birds. Naming the thing at any point in that row by the "number" that I count to get there seems to be a level of abstraction which requires "teaching".

    --
    nec sorte nec fato
  52. Doesn't really mean much... by bistromath007 · · Score: 1

    "Learned" and "intuitive" don't really seem mutually exclusive in a case like this. You do have to notice that one of these is about two of these, but doing so doesn't necessarily require somebody's help. It is communication about numbers that is cultural, not understanding them.

  53. I call BS by TheABomb · · Score: 1

    I'm sitting next to a recently-opened bottle of Gatorade. Because the plastic is transparent, and the liquid not, I can see exactly how full the bottle is.

    I just took a sip, and guess what? I watched the level go down! If I did the exact same thing, but in two dimensions, it would look exactly like a gas gauge or battery monitor.

    If that's not "intuitive" in your culture, there's something wrong with your culture.

    --
    MSIE: The world's most standards-complaint web browser.
  54. We're not all identical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Just because "the Yupno people of New Guinea" have a certain inherent trait doesn't mean the rest of us do. Even in a relatively homogenous population, we're not all the same. We are not robots, we are human beings. Lazy scientists like the ones who did this study need to stop drawing broad conclusions from just a few individuals.

  55. I thought we covered this in school by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

    If you grew up with the metric system you might not realize that common measurements used to be based on supposedly common items, so you had measurements dealing with what a man could hold with his arms around it, and the length of the King's erect cock or whatever. It's a natural advance to go from measuring things in terms of a fingertip to so many fingertip-units. I imagine it would have started with measuring distance, but it could as easily have been someone figuring it out by volume, this container holds so many of that container. Or this stick rolls over x times when it passes down the side of this object.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  56. What existed first -- debt or negative numbers? by swb · · Score: 1

    I sometimes wonder if negative numbers wasn't something that was invented as part of trade/commerce to help accommodate the concept of indebtedness.

    You don't really find negative numbers in physical nature, or at least not as the physical world was known in the BC era. A lake or river may be lower than average, but never has a negative quantity of water. Even subtraction is somehow positive, because if you take 2 apples from a basket of 10, the two you take aren't somehow negative, they still exist in the same form and are counted as a group as 2 apples.

    1. Re:What existed first -- debt or negative numbers? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You don't need negative numbers to describe debt because debt is simply owing a number of dollars...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  57. Math is not as perfect as Plato said by jtotheh · · Score: 1

    The author of the study co wrote a book with George Lakoff on where math concepts come from, their history etc. Math is not as perfect as I used to think. For instance , we want our systems to be closed under their operations and ideally the inverse of the operations. An example of this would be addition on modulo 5 numbers where 1+5=1. You have the numbers 1-5 and the operation always produces one of them. If you allow for infinite extension, addition is closed on positive integers. But then you want the inverse of the operation, and then that leads to the need for "negative" numbers which are not an intuitive concept. Multiplication then leads to division, rational numbers, irrational numbers (ie square roots ), imaginary numbers-dividing by zero - as you try to expand the ideas to preserve closure more and more bizarre constructs have to be added. Then there's Godel and the inherent flaws in formal systems.

    So math is really not as perfect as you might think. The book is interesting and I am not at all doing it justice. Also interesting is David Foster Wallace's math book "Everything and more" I think is the title.

  58. Numbers are not natural by kikito · · Score: 1

    They don't "exists". They are inventions that we make to try to explain the world. This doesn't make them any less useful, by the way.

    But yeah, trying to call them "natural" or even "intuitive" misses the point. Don't confuse the map with the terrain.

    1. Re:Numbers are not natural by kikito · · Score: 1

      :%s/exists/exist/g

  59. Re:Don't Get It by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

    It's from Star Trek - The Next Generation.

  60. took us 2000 years to invent this (Descartes) by peter303 · · Score: 1

    Geometry was probably invented 8000 years by surveyors, architects and astronomers. Algebra was invested by the Greeks in classical times. Descartes unified the two in the Coordinate System in the 1500s.

    Since this took us so long, I would be surprised this concept is not intuitive to unmathed peoples.

  61. Australian Aborigines by Baby+Duck · · Score: 1

    The fact that different cultures perceive math and time different was already demonstrated by Australian Aborigines. In an experiment, they showed a set of 2 matchsticks on the left and a set of 1 matchstick on the right. 1 matchstick was then moved from the left set to the right set. When asked to describe the phenomenon, they cited "There are 2 sets of 2, 2 sets of 3, and 1 3-set-making thing."

    --

    "Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins

  62. Intuition is overrated by binkless · · Score: 1

    Intuitively, heavier objects fall faster.

  63. Math vs Physics by Hankavelli · · Score: 1

    "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." --Albert Einstein

  64. Its a compliance artefact. by ananthap · · Score: 1

    Number line concept is a compliance artefact. The FACT that most number lines have ranges of standard usage means that they are compelling users to comply to a standard and be automated. OK