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Northrop Grumman Sues US Postal Service Over Automated Snail-mail Sort Contract

McGruber writes "The Federal Times is reporting that Northrup Grumman has filed suit against the US Postal Service, accusing the USPS of violating the terms of the 2007 fixed-price ($875 million) contract to produce 100 massive automatic sorting systems, each capable of handling millions of magazines, catalogs and other pieces of flat mail. The Postal Service embarked on the project just as mail volume was beginning to nosedive, cutting into anticipated efficiency gains. The sorting machines' performance has been uneven, according to a series of reports by the Postal Service's inspector general."

21 of 80 comments (clear)

  1. Dirty Northrop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Northrop Grumman is so fucking bad, that I refuse to believe that anything they do is malicious. They're not competent enough to try to really screw the taxpayers. Every interaction I've had with them indicates that NG corporate is hostile to actually producing hardware and software, and desire to only create IP that NG can then charge the government to use. They are, however, so fucking incompetent that when I tried to get them to give me a proposal for a sole source, small change, that they were going to charge us 5x cost for, they failed to provide a compliant proposal before the money got pulled. You got that right. 80% profit and overhead, and they couldn't actually execute their core business function, which is extracting money from the federal government. Granted, our acquisition system is it's own disaster, but only NG could be so bad as to fail to ask when we're throwing money.

    1. Re:Dirty Northrop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I actually commented on this in an article a while back. 80k for them to repair a part that broke for the military, Under 5k for a military maintenance facility to. And the kicker? The military base repairs actually worked long enough to be useful, while the Grumman ones were often faulty just back from repair.)

    2. Re:Dirty Northrop by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's like taunting someone for saying a car isn't a plausible economic theory. Starve the beast was never presented as an economic theory, it's a vindictive theory of punishment, punishing government (or government entities) by cutting funding, but not cutting the budget. And it has never worked in the history of the planet. Feel free to name a time, ever, when starving the beast worked in a non-violent way (as I think it could be argued that a number of revolutions were sparked by effects of starving the beast, but the "goal" of the starve-the-beast proponents is not violent collapse - unless that's their secret goal).

  2. Makes me wonder by tomhath · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If the USPS is charging enough for media/junk mail (aka "flats"). They probably don't want to price themselves out of the market but I find it hard to believe they can deliver junk mail for what they charge.

    1. Re:Makes me wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That interesting.

      Meanwhile, I'm wondering why, when any of these companies completely botches a defense contract, the taxpayers eat the cost of their fuck-ups for years on end. And really, which project DON'T they fuck up?

      But when they make a bogus machine that the USPS doesn't want, they sue!

      I love how some companies get to have their cake and eat it too, on my dime.

    2. Re:Makes me wonder by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

      That doesn't change the fact that other than garbage like junk mail and a few places that still send paper bills there really isn't much use of mail by the general pop, certainly not enough to justify daily deliveries.

      Hell my parents are in their 70s and not tech heads by ANY means yet I don't think either one has sent a letter in years, why? Because with email, chat, and FB frankly there just isn't a reason to. it is easier for both of them to just pop open the laptop or sit at the desk and type than it is to go through the time and BS of writing a letter, getting a stamp, mailing it, and then waiting to get a reply.

      In the end like 8-tracks and DOS this is just something that really isn't needed and isn't used much anymore. I know that other than the occasional package frankly all I ever get through the mail is junk crap, I mean why bother? you have email and chat and cell phones, all of which can give you instant or near instant responses.

      So I doubt even raising the rates would do much good, as many of the places that once sent me junk mail now simply has newsletters they email. Personally I hope they do get to raise it in the hope it'll kill junk mail faster but either way i think even junk mail will probably be dead in a decade, its just like those old AOHell discs in that you waste all those resources for very few sales.

      --
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  3. Cancel All Defense Projects with Grumman by george14215 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why not? Would any private sector business continue to do business with a partner that was suing it?

    1. Re:Cancel All Defense Projects with Grumman by ericloewe · · Score: 4, Informative

      Apple keep buying Samsung DRAM, NAND, processors, and maybe even screens, despite ongoing litigation.

    2. Re:Cancel All Defense Projects with Grumman by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Private sector businesses do that all the time. One of my firm's clients is a - naturally unnamed - car manufacturer. There's a happy merry-go-round of lawsuits between the manufacturer and its contractors. It usually ends in a slap on the shoulder - nice fight, didn't get what you wanted, did you, but let's just have a beer...

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  4. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  5. Re:In Soviet Russia by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Informative

    You should have started with "In Soviet Russia, letters send you!"

    Seriously, my understanding is that the USPS relies on OCR rather than a special format to handle a lot of sorting and routing, and secondarily on humans to figure out what goes where. In the US, the zip code was invented in 1963 to get a letter at least as far as the correct post office, and the zip+4 came about in 1983 to get you within a typical city block - by that point, it's in the right carrier's bag, and can be delivered correctly fairly easily.

    --
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  6. In a shrinking economy ... by cdrguru · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We are certainly going to be seeing more of this. The problem is businesses have contracted for services based on at least things staying the same. We have five years now of shrinkage in the economy, jobs, everything. And it is going to continue down the same road.

    A big part of the problem is expectations and perceptions. What really torpedoed the housing market was a perception that things were suddenly different. It made no difference whatsoever that a house valued at a million dollars one day hadn't changed in any way but the next day people were only willing to pay a half a million for the same house because of a perception that the housing market was crashing. This, obviously, led to a crash in most of the country. Yes, there was a possibility that people might default on some loans - and then because a lot of goods and services were no longer selling as they did a lot of people lost their jobs - and once again, perception became reality and people defaulted on loans after they lost their jobs.

    Of course the Postal Service is going to try to weasel out from this contract for stuff they no longer need. They might get away with it, unlike most other businesses and individuals. A lot of the time a business will purchase equipment and hire people based on a contract that isn't really cancellable and often it is difficult to get out of those. Try signing up for a lawn service for five years and cancelling after the first year - you might get sued as well.

    A far bigger problem is that there will be a ripple effect here. Northrop Grumman will fire a bunch of people that were supposed to be working on this. Then will in turn stop buying as much stuff leading to further contractions spreading out through the economy. It is what happens in a shrinking economy rather than a growing one. This has happened before, but the problem is this time there is no confidence that the government is capable of fixing things in any manner other than throwing money around like a drunken sailor. And rather than just a crisis of confidence, there is actually a great deal of confidence that things are just going to get worse and worse.

    1. Re:In a shrinking economy ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not all gloom and doom, and maybe our economy needed a little contracting, but when you have one party opposed in lock step to anything that might fix things for purely ideological and "don't let the economy get better or they'll re-elect a black guy" reasons, this is what happens.

      Some people's belief in government's ability to fix things, as opposed to abillity, is about the same as my lack of faith that corporations will ever have loyalty to their people or their country, or that CEOs will ever stop being sociopathic egomaniacs who care nothing but for themselves.

    2. Re:In a shrinking economy ... by Courageous · · Score: 2

      It wasn't just perception that killed the housing market. The homes were objectively over valued. Things like rental value to investment cost actually matter. The change in perception involved people waking up to that.

  7. Re:In Soviet Russia by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I don't know how much is purely down to inertia and inefficiency(these certainly cannot be ruled out); but I get the impression that the US postal service has a certain cultural attachment to a slightly retro ideal of universal service going back to their original constitutional mandate. This is of pretty questionable use in their contemporary capacity as high-volume junk mail distributers with a side of certified legal mailings; but my interactions with postal personnel(especially in smaller markets) has always given me the impression that they take a certain pride in the fact that anyone can scrawl a vague reference to somewhere in Podunk on an envelope, slap on a stamp, and have it actually arrive at the correct slice of nowhere, courtesy of the postman who knows that area.

    Fedex, on the other hand, you expect the barcodes and the little scanner/PDA widget.

    As noted, it isn't obvious that this cultural orientation is a good fit for the position that the service finds itself in; but it has always struck me as an interesting phenomenon...

  8. Re:In Soviet Russia by optimism · · Score: 3, Informative

    Last I checked, machine recognition of handwritten zip codes was better than 99.5%.

    That was about 5 years ago. Presumably it has improved since.

    So, there is no need for special machine codes. They can read your writing as-is, or pass the rare piece of mail to a human sorter if the confidence margin is too low.

  9. Here's the hardware. But it's not needed any more. by Animats · · Score: 5, Informative

    The previous generation of flat sorting machine. The new flat sorting machine. The mechanical problems of sorting large volumes of flats of varied size and thickness with flapping loose pages have finally been solved. But it doesn't matter. Putting ads on glossy paper and shipping them to people who don't really want them much is a dying industry.

    The USPS really wants to get out of the deal for the flat sorting system, because the flats business (mostly catalogs and magazines) is declining. Mail volume overall peaked in 2006, and has been in a screaming dive since then. The USPS doesn't need a new generation of flat sorting machinery. But the USPS signed a firm fixed-price contract for the gear, and they're stuck with it.

    Paper mail, as a business, is tanking. "We forecast U.S. postal volumes to decrease from 177B pieces in 2009 to around 150B pieces in 2020 under business-as-usual assumptions. Notably, volumes will not revisit the high-water-mark of 213B pieces in 2006 -- on the contrary, the trajectory for the next 10 years is one of steady decline, which will not reverse even as the current recession abates. Expressing the decline in terms of pieces per delivery point highlights the challenge: we project pieces per household per day to fall from four pieces today to three in 2020 -- driven by decreasing volumes delivered to an increasing number of addresses." That's the optimistic scenario - recession over in 2012, no "Do Not Mail" bulk mail opt-out legislation. It's also from a 2010 study that didn't really consider the move to smartphones.

  10. Re:Here's the hardware. But it's not needed any mo by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Paper mail, as a business, is tanking.

    And yet parcel (package) mail volume is increasing.
    The funny thing is that UPS makes more money than everyone else in the package business combined,
    but for rural deliveries, they (and FedEx) farm out the packages to USPS because it would cost to much to deliver it themselves.

    That said, the United States Postal Service isn't really in financial trouble.
    Their problem mostly has to do with a bad law that forces them to devote enormous amounts of cash to prefund pension plans

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
  11. Re:In Soviet Russia by sphealey · · Score: 5, Informative

    Something like 99.7% of USPS mail is autosorted. There are three (IIRC on the number) centers were a few dozen human-type people view (remotely, from the regional sorting center) the 0.3% that doesn't autosort. Again IIRC those people are able to sort 99% of the remaining, usually within 10 seconds. The rest go to the dead mail office.

    The pictures people have in their minds of USPS "inefficiency" are the way things were done in the 1950s; the USPS started automating in a big way in the 60s and funded a lot of research in machine vision and OCR in the 60s and 70s.

    sPh

  12. Re:Here's the hardware. But it's not needed any mo by waferbuster · · Score: 2
    I get probably 5 pieces of actual mail per month (bills, statements, etc). When I moved into my new house 6 months ago, I was getting about 8 bulk mailing pieces per day. I used every available opt-out method to avoid getting this junk mail delivered, and now I get maybe 2 or 3 pieces of junk mail per week. Overall, opting out has dramatically reduced the amount of bulk mail I receive. The important part is how easy it was to opt-out. I spent maybe 2 hours on various websites filling out basic forms. Now, when I get a spam mail, I try to opt-out from it online (google is my friend). Usually I can find a site or phone number to get my name removed from their mailing list.

    If the Post Office business model depends on people being willing to accept bulk advertising as an unavoidable nuisance, then their business is in trouble. If opt-out laws get passed, then it'll really put a dent in their profits. I hate spam, and I don't care if it's on paper or electronic. If I can avoid it, I will.

    --
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  13. Re:Here's the hardware. But it's not needed any mo by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

    Paper mail, as a business, is tanking.

    And yet parcel (package) mail volume is increasing.
    The funny thing is that UPS makes more money than everyone else in the package business combined,
    but for rural deliveries, they (and FedEx) farm out the packages to USPS because it would cost to much to deliver it themselves.

    That said, the United States Postal Service isn't really in financial trouble.
    Their problem mostly has to do with a bad law that forces them to devote enormous amounts of cash to prefund pension plans

    Actually, they are forced to prepay 75 years of health pension benefit in the next 10 years. Look at the pretty charts and you'll see the massive losses only started happening after the law was passed - before that they were doing fairly well - no big profits, no big losses, basically self-sufficient.

    Even worse, they're prepaying health benefits for people who haven't joined USPS yet. Imagine paying for employee pensions for those who aren't even employees yet.