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Programming — Now Starting In Elementary School

the agent man writes "The idea of getting kids interested in programming in spite of their common perception of programming to be 'hard and boring' is an ongoing Slashdot discussion. With support of the National Science Foundation, the Scalable Game Design project has explored how to bring computer science education into the curriculum of middle and high schools for some time. The results are overwhelmingly positive, suggesting that game design is highly motivational across gender and ethnicity lines. The project is also finding new ways of tracking programming skills transferring from game design to STEM simulation building. This NPR story highlights an early and unplanned foray into bringing game-design based computer science education even to elementary schools."

17 of 162 comments (clear)

  1. What do you mean, "now" starting? by EmagGeek · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I took programming in 3rd and 4th grades. In 3rd grade we started with logo, and then in 4th grade we started writing in BASIC.

    That was standard curriculum throughout the State back in the early 80s.

    1. Re:What do you mean, "now" starting? by gman003 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Same - I was using Logo in 3rd grade, back in '96 or so. Loved that turtle.

      Weirdly, programming disappeared from my curriculum until high school, when I was started on Java. Of course, I taught myself in the mean time - Basic, C++, Java, and so on. Tried teaching myself assembly - did not go so well.

    2. Re:What do you mean, "now" starting? by phaserbanks · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yup. Started BASIC in 3rd grade at public elementary school in Tampa. Fast forward today: I asked my son what they do in his computer class, and he said "we made a song in Garage Band". WTF

    3. Re:What do you mean, "now" starting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      I taught myself in the mean time

      That was very much the mode in those days.

    4. Re:What do you mean, "now" starting? by EmagGeek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I started teaching myself Fortran in 7th grade when I got my Ham Radio license and heard that it was the program of choice for modeling Antennas. Of course, I was not aware of this whole calculus thing, so I couldn't actually write my first antenna modeling program until 8th grade after my dad taught me calculus over the summer.

      Math is another subject we seriously need to accelerate. High School just doesn't teach enough Math, even in AP. High school graduates pursuing STEM degrees need to have a firm grasp of Vector Calculus and Differential Equations by the time they get to college. Too many entry level classes are non-calculus based because of this problem, and are therefore a waste of time.

      We can do better.

    5. Re:What do you mean, "now" starting? by steelyeyedmissileman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Seriously-- there's no reason we shouldn't be teaching Algebra from the *very beginning*. I mean, come on.. what's the difference between 1 + _ = 2 and 1 + x = 2? You're figuring out the exact same thing!! The only reason I can think that we can't introduce Algebra from the start is that it scares the heck out of the teachers.

    6. Re:What do you mean, "now" starting? by gman003 · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, it won't be "irrelevant", because it's some of the most fundamental elements of programming.

      Things I learned in that Logo class:
      variables and assignment
      IF-THEN-ELSE statements
      WHILE loops
      FOR loops
      GOTO
      Functions

      With the exception of that last one, what, really, is different in modern programming? I still use every one of those, every day, except the goto.

      The syntax is unimportant. The API is unimportant, as long as it's simple, and visual enough for a third-grader to "see" the results of his program. The important thing is teaching the basic programming elements. Hell, the important thing at that age is teaching that a computer is just a machine, that it's not some magic box. I've seen *adults* who can't grasp why a computer is doing what they told it instead of what they want.

    7. Re:What do you mean, "now" starting? by MightyYar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Elementary math is memorization and learning a mechanical system of computing. Algebra relies more on symbolic thought.

      That said, I think that algebra could be taught a few years earlier. I remember seeing it for the first time in 8th grade and thinking, "Oh, wow, this is just like variables in BASIC!"

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    8. Re:What do you mean, "now" starting? by RightwingNutjob · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Lack of funding my ass. There's plenty of money to spend of laptops and HD projectors and electronic whiteboards and new sets of math textbooks with new sets of politically correct glossy pictures every other year. It ain't the money, it's the lack of an adult in the room to decree that it's the math that's important, not the glossy pictures. My dad showed me his 5th grade algebra textbook from 1950's Soviet Russia. The size of a DVD case, not a single picture, but all the math you need to learn in a simple package. And it probably would cost $20 to write, fact-check, print and distribute here in today's dollars.

    9. Re:What do you mean, "now" starting? by JonySuede · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Logo's better than you think.

      It is a scheme like language:
            world model --> initial environment
            procedure level -> nested environment
            turtles --> thread environment

      It revolves around a built-in actor model funnily named turtles.
      An implementation of a multithreaded logo interpreter is trivial because of that.

      If Logo was compiled to byte-code or machine code using a modern compiler it would be a competitive language assumed it had a decent library or the capability to call to other languages transparently.

      --
      Jehovah be praised, Oracle was not selected
  2. Statistics of motivation by imbusy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It would be interesting to see how many of us started out wanting to make a game/some graphics demo and then learning how to do it compared to some other motivation for learning programming. I started out that way myself.

  3. CoderDojo teaching kids to code by ei4anb · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I help out at the local CoderDojo, it's like a youth club and we show them everything from Scratch through HTML & Javascript up to developing Android apps (for the older kids). The company I work for just donated 100 old laptops to allow kids without their own (or parents) laptop to take part.

    Here's what it looks like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMODHilE4qk

  4. Programming is treated as too "mystical" by whizbang77045 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Society seems to treat programming as though it were something mystical. In fact, it is simply learning how to think and express oneself logically, using a very basic (no pun intended) language. How is this different than learning how to read and write English effectively? We expect too many things to be hard, so we make them hard by our attitudes.

    1. Re:Programming is treated as too "mystical" by Tr3vin · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hey now, I make good money convincing people that what I do is something mystical. I'm sure many others here do too. Don't go and ruin it for the rest of us.

  5. generalize to problem solving by RichMan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Programming is not special. Programming is the literacy of problem solving.
    Facing a required task and then using known tools to construct a method the achieve the required task in logical steps.

    There should be less emphasis on "programming" and more on general problem solving. Learning the general method is better than learning the specific method until you need to become as master of the specific method.

    Programming can be one aspect of teaching problem solving because programming is very structured. However problem solving skills in general need to raised a lot higher than general grade school level before real programming can be done.

  6. Ignoring the Actual Problem by TemperedAlchemist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem isn't that we don't teach them algebra soon enough, it's that we don't teach them how to think (read: at all). It's not that mathematics doesn't teach people how to think, it does. But only in some kind of sneaky way, and people are assumed to have great logical deduction abilities like it's some inherent intuitive concept. But it doesn't work that way.

    Unless you attended a rich and large high school, chances are your exposure to any level of logic is nil. Why is it only philosophy majors are the ones forced to take informal logic (and not even very much at that)? The only way you actually get an adequate exposure to formal education in rational thinking is if you're a logician.

    But really I'm just deluding myself, who wants a workforce that knows how to think?

  7. Re:A shrinking market by bmo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    And the United States is doomed

    We are, unless things drastically change in politics and the boards of corporations. This is a matter of facts on the ground. It's not open to debate. It's happening.

    we should all lay down and slowly starve.

    We won't have any choice if things don't change.

    We have been handing technology, as a society, to the Chinese for decades now, with the delusional belief that all the high-end stuff will still happen here. I believe it started with Voc-Ed being a place to dump the "dummy" students. This is how I believe we lost the skills to make anything here - that we systematically decided that making anything = sweatshop and if you were smart, you didn't go into manufacturing, ever. We denigrated actual work for decades and anyone who worked in a factory making anything was therefore just some dumb monkey. And you can replace monkeys on one side of the planet with monkeys from another side. That's the thinking that got us here.^1

    But transferring the manufacturing base over to China makes it inconvenient for the engineering and software to happen here, so guess where it's going to move.

    Go ahead, guess.

    Engineers and scientists are already moving to Shanghai.

    Unless we stop the haemorrhaging and start building up our own manufacturing base here encouraging students to go into STEM without learning Chinese is a joke and a half.

    But I don't see that happening any time soon.

    --
    BMO

    Postscript: I was looking at a Popular Mechanics from the 1950s and there was articles that went on for pages on how to use a shaper and a tip on how to turn a taper using ball bearings instead of ordinary conical centers , and it was just *there* as if machining was a skill that many people had. You don't publish an article in a popular magazine where you deliberate write over the heads over your readers or write something they don't care about. It was expected that the readers of the 1954 Popular Mechanics^2 would find this stuff applicable. Today you would *never* find such an article in a mainstream magazine such as that.

    Footnotes:

    1. The war on work: http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.html

    The first half goes on about castrating sheep. But that's the set-up for the second half, so watch the whole thing.

    2. http://books.google.com/books?id=Nt8DAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA126&dq=1954%20Popular%20Mechanics&pg=PA234#v=onepage&q&f=true