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Maryland Teen Wins World's Largest Science Fair

Velcroman1 writes "A Maryland student was awarded the top prize at the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair on Friday for developing a urine and blood test that detects pancreatic cancer with 90 percent accuracy. Jack Andraka, 15, claimed the $75,000 prize for his test, which is roughly 28 times cheaper and faster, and over 100 times more sensitive than current tests. Each year, approximately 7 million high school students around the globe develop original research projects and present their work at local science fairs with the hope of winning."

45 of 193 comments (clear)

  1. Congratulations. by mr1911 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Bright kid.

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    1. Re:Congratulations. by interkin3tic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe, but it would be nice if there were more details. I remember reading a slashdot news story about another teen science fair winner with some awesome result, but someone pointed out that he essentially copied someone else's PhD dissertation. Kinda made me skeptical about amazing science fair results. In this case, was he a chemical engineer? How did he even get access to pancreatic cancer urine samples?

      Is the 90% accurate, faster, and far cheaper than current tests maybe because it's just a strip of paper that will always give a "You do not have pancreatic cancer" result? That sounds like it would be a lot cheaper, faster, and at least 90% accurate if you weren't selectively testing people you thought had pancreatic cancer...

    2. Re:Congratulations. by MarkGriz · · Score: 2, Funny

      You're expecting scientific details from Fox News?

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    3. Re:Congratulations. by Missing.Matter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I remember reading a slashdot news story about another teen science fair winner with some awesome result, but someone pointed out that he essentially copied someone else's PhD dissertation. Kinda made me skeptical about amazing science fair results. In this case, was he a chemical engineer? How did he even get access to pancreatic cancer urine samples?

      I participated in ISEF from 7th grade until 12th, with varying levels of success. I did very well, but never as well as this kid, but I dated a girl for 4 years who basically won the same place. This competition is very high stakes, as the winners basically get to choose their school from the top schools in the country. I attribute my acceptance into CMU more to ISEF than anything else I did in Highschool.

      With such high stakes, there is a lot of parental support, especially from parents who are scientists and engineers. A friend of mine had unlimited access through her family to a MRI machine. She did very well and went on to MIT. Another friend had access to vast quantities of microbial data through her mom. Other people had their parents design and supervise the experiments, while others still performed extensive and impressive statistical tests well beyond the skill of a 14 year old, thanks to their parents. After dating my girlfriend for some time, who again placed as well as the kid in the story, she revealed to me her father basically did all the work.

      None of this is ever disclosed at the fair, and all work is always presented by the students to be their own original research. I'm not saying the kids in question were dumb... quite the opposite they were brilliant. But they also had a great deal of extra help from highly educated people to "guide" their research. I'm also not saying this was the case for the winner this year, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

    4. Re:Congratulations. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So in other words, the "best and brightest" are plagiarist? Makes sense to me. Actually that would explain a lot...

    5. Re:Congratulations. by Missing.Matter · · Score: 2

      More like the "best and the brightest" aren't necessarily any better and brighter than anyone else, but had certain resources that made their work more impressive.

    6. Re:Congratulations. by Loosifur · · Score: 5, Insightful

      My wife is pursuing her doctorate in science education, and this comes up continually. Equity in education is a huge, huge issue, especially in STEM, and the theme that consistently shows up is that having parents who are educated, who are in the upper middle class, and/or who are in a professional field gives you a huge leg up. It doesn't mean that these kids work less, or aren't as smart, or aren't as deserving as kids from poorer backgrounds, but it does mean that they start out with larger reserves of educational capital than other kids. I mean, you could be a genius, but if your parents are working two full-time landscaping jobs and barely speak English, you're going to be at a disadvantage compared to a kid who has a parent who can spend an hour a day helping with homework.

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    7. Re:Congratulations. by pkinetics · · Score: 4, Informative
      Science News Arcticle

      Searching for a better detector for mesothelin, Andraka coated paper with tiny tubes of atom-thick carbon. Antibodies stuck to the carbon nanotubes can grab the telltale protein and spread the tubes apart. The carbon’s resistance to the flow of electricity drops measurably as more protein attaches. Tests of the paper using blood samples from 100 people with cancer at different stages of the disease identified the presence of cancer every time, Andraka reported.

    8. Re:Congratulations. by westlake · · Score: 3, Informative

      How did he even get access to pancreatic cancer urine samples?

      Jack Andraka is a high school research intern at The Sol Goldman Pancreatic Cancer Research Center, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, Maryland. The lab of Anirban Maitra, Associate Professor of Pathology and Oncology. Four students honored at INBT research symposium [NanoBioTechnology]

      A MathMovesU Middle School Scholarship winner, Jack Andraka of Crownsville, Md., rode his way to a $1,000 campership courtesy of Raytheon to camp Awesome Math, where he can hone his problem-solving skills with students from around the world. Jack wrote about his love of mountain biking for Raytheon's MathMovesU Middle School Scholarship and Grant Program, which honors students and teachers who are passionate about science, technology, engineering and math.

      Jack Andraka: Math and Mountain Biking Create Eureka Moment

      I-SWEEEP 2010 Special Awards [Certificate of Achievement and Office of Naval Research Medallion]

    9. Re:Congratulations. by Stargoat · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's one thing to pull yourself up from the bootstraps if you're born uppermiddle class. It's another if you're born lower class. There's a strong argument that it's easier today to move up the social ladder in Europe than the United States. This is appalling.

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    10. Re:Congratulations. by Missing.Matter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      all entrants have to make clear up front what their contribution to their project was, how much help they had from others etc.

      Yeah of course they have to. That's the way it was back when I was in the fair. But this is not what happens. My highschool had a very large science program and we sent about 90-100 kids a year to regional fairs. For some reason it was the kids who had researcher/professor/PhD/engineer parents who always made it to the international fair. After competing in these fairs year after year, you get to know the crowd, who's legit, and what kind of nonsense is going on.

      If you really talk to these kids on a peer level (which you'll never be able to do at this point) you can see right through them. The judges are about the last people who have a grasp on the true character of some of these kids. I personally know a kid who completely faked his entire project year after year and never got caught. He was really good at faking work... probably was more effort than it would have taken to actually to the project. He won several high profile special awards from the military and armed forces for his "research."

    11. Re:Congratulations. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It would be quite counter-intuitive if the US had more social mobility than socialist countries. In the US you receive little assistance from the state, so it won't be helping the poor up the ladder, while the state also doesn't impose much of a burden on the rich, so it won't be pulling them down the ladder either. In a socialist country, the poor receive more assistance and there are more demands on the rich. Obviously the latter is more conducive to social mobility, so I don't know why you state it as if this was some sort of strange idea that might even be true. Why wouldn't the US have poor social mobility?

    12. Re:Congratulations. by bitt3n · · Score: 4, Funny

      Is the 90% accurate, faster, and far cheaper than current tests maybe because it's just a strip of paper that will always give a "You do not have pancreatic cancer" result?

      I can do better than that. A strip of paper that says "you have pancreatic cancer," stuffed into fortune cookie laced with U-235.

    13. Re:Congratulations. by olau · · Score: 2

      According to this TED talk, if you want to live the American dream, statistically the best place to do it is Denmark with our relatively high taxation level and state-funded education (you get paid to study at university), health care, unemployment safety net etc.

    14. Re:Congratulations. by Chazerizer · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, all of this is disclosed at the fair. Any student working in a high-end research lab (or frankly, any place more advanced than your standard high school lab) is required to submit forms signed by the head of said institutions and detail the size and scope of the involvement of the lab. This includes graduate student mentors, access to equipment, and other information.

    15. Re:Congratulations. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      while the state also doesn't impose much of a burden on the rich, so it won't be pulling them down the ladder either.

      And if the rich do something colossally stupid and jump off the ladder on their own, the state will swoop in with a bailout jetpack or golden parachute at huge expense to the taxpayer.

    16. Re:Congratulations. by Kjella · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's a perception bias, with the poor being poorer and the rich being richer the rags to riches stories also get more extreme. It creates the illusion that everyone can go from the very bottom of the ladder to the very top of the ladder but a few extreme outliers don't mean social mobility for the masses. Also the rich and powerful like to perpetuate this idea because it means that instead of going Robin Hood and taking from the rich and giving to the poor, people want to get rid of taxes for when they themselves become rich. Of course most people don't actually end up rich, but if you can make them believe they will then you get people working 60+ hour weeks for shit pay, little help from the government and they want it that way...

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  2. Engineering and Science by bazald · · Score: 2

    If all he did was get a specification from a client and build something to that specification, I'd agree with you. Seeing as he both developed the test and did a scientific evaluation, I think this qualifies as a healthy mixture of both engineering and science.

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  3. Help by Bigby · · Score: 5, Interesting

    How much of the work supposedly done by this individual were actually done by the child? What about the others considered for the award? Science fairs have become a huge joke, and I'm sorry if this child actually did this on his own. Even HS fairs have no credibility.

  4. Re:Good and all but... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Insightful

    when will we see wide-spread usage in regular medical practice?

    When insurance companies and hospital administration boards find a way to make it ridiculously expensive.

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  5. I wonder... by virgnarus · · Score: 2

    How many contestants entered in with volcanoes and solar system dioramas.

    1. Re:I wonder... by MarkGriz · · Score: 2

      I call it "cup of dirt"

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  6. At the risk of sounding negative ... by sirdude · · Score: 2

    .. from what I have seen of these fairs where kids invent/discover things seemingly beyond their mental, physical or financial means, they are inevitably "guided" by parents who are professionals. In the case of Andraka, his mother appears to be an anaesthetist at a hospital and his father might be an engineer ...

    It's nevertheless a commendable result.

  7. Who did the work? by vlm · · Score: 5, Informative

    A Maryland student was awarded the top prize at the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair on Friday for developing a urine and blood test that detects pancreatic cancer with 90 percent accuracy.

    Who did the work? I'm not thinking the kid did. He may have "developed" it in the same sense that modern americans talk about how they are "building a house" when they really mean cutting a check for someone else to build it.

    I'm thinking most of the list is "This is what my dad does at work and this is what they did while I watched them".

    Plausible projects that could actually be done by kids would be:

    "Euglena: The Solution to Nanosilver Pollution" Nothing too unobtainable here, nothing requiring a weird environment, clearly possible in a basement, or in my basement anyway.

    "Design and Creation of Small Wind-Power Engines for Low Wind Speeds Based on Magnus Effect" Totally designable and buildable by a kid, key word being "small" and "low speed"

    "Repelling Effect of Plant Extracts on Bees-A Study on Preventing Bees from Pesticide Toxicity" Plenty of normal civilians keep bees, at least in rural areas, coincidentally same place plants to extract and pesticides to sample also reside. Totally believable that a smart hard working kid could do this alone.

    "Effect of Food Types on Quantity and Nutritional Quality of Weaver Ant". Ants, we got em. Food, we got it too. Can we count? Yes we can. Sounds like good science doable by an actual kid.

    Implausible projects that could not have been done by kids:

    "A Study of the Endogenous Activity Rhythms of the Marine Isopod Exosphaeroma truncatitelson" Where does a kid get that and the testing environment necessary?

    "Analysis of Photon-Mediated Entanglement between Distinguishable Matter Qubits" Oh come on. Well I'll head on over to home depot and get a can of qubits on the way home from school, and then...

    "DNA Repair Mechanisms: Investigations of Base Excision Repair Pathway in Differentiated and Proliferative Neuronal CAD Cells" Oh come on. How big was the lab that did this work? 50 people and 10 million bucks of gear maybe?

    "Synthesis of Trimethylguanosine Cap Analogues with the Potential Use in Gene Therapy" Oh come on

    "Synthesis of Triazene Compounds and Their Application in Spectrophotometric Determination of Cadmium" Nobody's doing cadmium work outside a lab, at least without turning the basement into a "radioactive boyscout" situation. I would promote this to "possible" if and only if it were done as independent study at a high school chem lab.

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    1. Re:Who did the work? by swx2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Quoting from the winning project's abstract:
      "Optimal layering was determined using a scanning electron microscope."

      Ok what? How does a high school student get access to one of those? I highly doubt most HS in this country has one of those for their students to use...

    2. Re:Who did the work? by vlm · · Score: 2

      How does a high school student get access to one of those?

      Essentially, the kid didn't win anything, the local taxpayers and the local science teacher won while the kid was watching them.

      I'm about 1e9 times more impressed with the kid who probably bought live euglena from carolina.com for $25 and probably made his own colloidal silver in his basement using some silver coins and a electronics hobbyist power supply, dumped it into petrie dishes under some lights, then did some cell counts in a microscope. I'm impressed because the kid probably paid for it himself and did all/most of the work himself. That kid actually did science and earned his money (unless he made his brother do all the work or something... point being he Could have done all the work, at least)

      The electron microscope kid just happened to be in the right place at the right time. Bleh.

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  8. 90% is useless by andrews · · Score: 2

    If the test is only 90% accurate then it's useless.

    A 10% error rate would generate a number of false results greater than the incidence of pancreatic cancer in the first place.

    1. Re:90% is useless by KarrdeSW · · Score: 3, Informative
      The point is not that it's a definitive test, the point that it's a reasonably accurate blood and urine test. As in, after discussing recent problems with your doctor, your doctor may then conclude that this would be a good time to stick you with a biopsy needle and test for pancreatic cancer.

      But wait, this is invasive and potentially harmful, is there some way we can be a bit more sure about things before we confirm?

      Why yes! This kid developed a blood and urine test which is 90% accurate!

      The point is to potentially reduce the number of large, expensive needles stuck into someone's pancreas, not to serve as a standalone test.

      It also matters WHY the test is inaccurate. If it's consistent with each individual "if I get a false positive, it will ALWAYS be a false positive" because of a lack of a certain protein or whatever, then it's less useful (unless you determine the conditions that make it work). If it's actually just a random 10% due to lack of precision for a particular measurement, then it can be refined, OR you could just run it five times and do some math to get a result with >90% accuracy.

  9. What the Winner Did From the Contest Website by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Jack Andraka
    Gordon E. Moore Award Winners

    Jack Andraka, 15, of Crownsville, Maryland, was awarded the Gordon E. Moore Award for his development of a new method to detect pancreatic cancer. Using an approach similar to that of diabetic test strips, Jack created a simple dip-stick sensor to test the level of mesothelin, a pancreatic cancer biomarker, in blood or urine, to determine whether or not a patient has early-stage pancreatic cancer. His study resulted in over 90 percent accuracy in detecting the presence of mesothelin. Further, his novel patent-pending sensor proved to be 28 times faster, 28 times less expensive and over 100 times more sensitive than current tests.

    This is something easily done by a high-school student (the hard work is determining what to test for and that can be done by a literature search) and , yes he did apply for a patent.

    1. Re:What the Winner Did From the Contest Website by Nemyst · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you do a bit of digging, you can find the full abstract:
      http://www.aacps.org/science/andraka.pdf

      The choice quote here is:
      "Optimal layering was determined using a scanning electron microscope."

      I'm sorry, but as a high school student, there's no way I'd have access to that kind of gear. Further, the rest of the abstract includes things which could only be performed with rather specific tools. Reading precision to the nmol/L? My high school barely had beakers.

      I'm not saying the individual steps are impossible to do as a teenager, just that having all the tools available and the knowledge to perform the steps would be extremely improbable. As with most incredible claims, I always tend to be skeptical.

  10. Re:What a fucking loser! by Caratted · · Score: 3, Informative
    FTFA:

    His study resulted in over 90 percent accuracy and showed his patent-pending sensor to be 28 times faster, 28 times less expensive and over 100 times more sensitive than current tests.

    Moron.

  11. Re:What a fucking loser! by Jeng · · Score: 2

    He just won an international level science competition, he is going to have job and scholarship offers coming out his ass.

    If he had done this privately and tried to monetize it the business school graduates would have fucked him over.

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  12. Just don't try... by slippyblade · · Score: 2

    to take your project home on the airplane. They might end up shutting down the airport for several hours, arresting you, and confiscating your project.

  13. I thought I should have won by dietdew7 · · Score: 4, Funny

    My project was a really cool baking soda volcano.

    1. Re:I thought I should have won by cvtan · · Score: 2

      What you did is 90% of the chemistry taught in high school these days.

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  14. Re:What a fucking loser! by Coren22 · · Score: 3, Funny

    he is going to have job and scholarship offers coming out his ass

    Sounds painful, do you suppose he might develop a test for this condition?

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  15. Does Happen At High School Fairs by mx+b · · Score: 4, Interesting

    An anecdote: I judged at a middle and high school science/engineering fair myself once, a few years ago now. It was an ... interesting experience. Before the judging began, we held a meeting in which the lead judge reminded jurors to "pick winners based on creativity and hard work of the CHILD, not the parents". Whenever possible, we tried to interview the kids to see if they had any inkling of the project contents; this was usually the best way to determine if the parents did the project or not.

    From what I saw that day, I would say half at best did the work themselves. One kid even admitted that his dad was an engineer and came up with the design, and he more or less just watched and took down notes (the parents had walked off when I came to his booth, so I guess they weren't around to stop him from being an honest little kid). I didn't even get the impression that he liked it much; more that the parents pushed him to doing it.

    I did not want to discourage interest in science, especially if the parents are really trying hard to encourage their kids, but at the end of the day I awarded my votes to the less visually impressive projects that were very obviously done by the kids. One was a simple experiment with growing plants in certain soil conditions. I can't remember exactly what the additive was. But nothing fancy. But here we got to the booth and the kid was beaming and excited to show off the plants, and demonstrated a decent grasp of scientific method (trying to control conditions, etc.). I gave her more points than the equivalent of the "quantum qubits" project.

    I haven't tried doing it again since then because honestly it made me feel discouraged. There were very few students truly interested in doing a science project, that were able to find a project interesting to them. Most of the projects struck me as either "completely cobbled together last minute in order to prevent a failing grade in science class", or "forced to do a particular project by overbearing parents that want the most spectacular project possible". I can see where it is very hard to judge in that environment because the helicopter parents will demand 1st prize when their kids don't deserve it. The fact that I was allowed to be a "secret" judge helped a bit that particular time. I imagine most people just thought I was a curious parent wandering around asking basic questions.

    1. Re:Does Happen At High School Fairs by Belial6 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is systemic in our culture. My 8 year old son was part of a 'Book Club' recently. It was sad because the other parents insisted that the books their child "chose" be well outside of the reading level for the group. While my son wanted to do the club, we insisted that he actually read all of the books. It was a lot of hard work for him, and it entailed discussions throughout the book since much subject matter was more suited to High School students or adults.

      When the meetings came around, he was the only child that had actually read the books. The rest of the group were split in about thirds. 1/3 the parent read the book to the child and edited it as they did it to cut out any parts they didn't want their kid to hear. 1/3 just played the book on tape for the kid, and 1/3 just watched the movie adaptation when it was available.

      Every one of them patted themselves on the back for giving their kid 'culture' and being involved with their education.

    2. Re:Does Happen At High School Fairs by tibit · · Score: 2

      Now be very, very careful there. There is a reading disorder known to me as hyperlexia. It is when a child has perfected the phonological decoding of the text (letters into sounds), at the expense of completely blocking out the meaning. Those kids read beautifully but have no clue what they are reading. No clue as in not knowing anything about the text. Total I-don't-recall-even-half-of-the-last-sentence disconnect.

      From an earliest age one must place equal emphasis on comprehension. Listening to audiobooks is a good way to exercise that in isolation, even though it does nothing to verify that comprehension won't be outgunned during reading of written text. I'd hope at age 8 the kid reads well enough that the book club doesn't have to play an important role in development of reading-off-the-page.

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  16. Re:Not ridiculously expensive... by geekmux · · Score: 3, Insightful

    but ridiculously profitable. I would imagine charging 1/4 current rates would be about right, considering that the cost is 28 times cheaper.

    Considering that these are the same greedy assholes that charge $100+ for the Sharpie markers they use in the OR*, I expect at least 1/2 the current rate, if not more. * No bullshit. Make sure you get an itemized bill for your next surgical procedure, it'll piss you off what they charge for some of this shit.

    Ha! Clearly you both are underestimating the level of greed and corruption in big pharma. You forgot to consider that this test is now likely more accurate than the current test. In 6 months time, the small handful of the populace who barely remembers "28 times cheaper" won't matter, for this "new and improved" test will hit the market at 2x the current price.

    If anything, the cost will go UP, not down. This will be marketed as a "better" product, not a "cheaper" one.

  17. Re:Good and all but... by moehoward · · Score: 2

    You would follow up with an ERCP, which is expensive.

    The current CA19-9 blood test is not reliable in many individuals, but is a relatively inexpensive blood test to check for pancreatic cancer. If you baseline with CA19-9 and use the test on a regular basis, it seems pretty good right now. I guess I can't see this kid's test being 28 times cheaper than a CA19-9 test, but I could see it being 28 times cheaper than an ERCP.

    Moe

    --
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  18. Wait, what? by F69631 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's a strong argument that it's easier today to move up the social ladder in Europe than the United States

    I've always thought that this is very widely accepted fact. Where I live, higher education is free (and in fact, you get social security of 500 euros ($640) a month, lower rent, government-backed loans, etc. if you're a student) and university admissions are based on objective tests to select the best students (everyone who finishes Highschool will participate in national testing. Grades come from bell curve and graders don't know whose paper they're grading... or even the highschool of the student). It seems obvious to me that a system like this will result in more social justice and less inequality (Nearly everyone who has the will and skill can climb the social ladder regardless of who their parents where) but people in USA decided that the gain is simply not worth the price (=more taxes, less personal liberty, more nannystate...).

    This is appalling.

    Why so? Again, I assumed this had always been both well-known and intentional but if it isn't... is there something that makes Europe especially appalling in this regard or is it just so appalling to hear that USA isn't at the top?

  19. Re:Not ridiculously expensive... by Genda · · Score: 2

    When your hospital is for profit, you end up in this funny cycle. Ambulance chaser sues someone, and wins a ridiculous tort settlement against a doctor/hospital. Insurance company says "Boohoo, I can't possibly survive this assault if I don't raise my rates accordingly!" so they accommodate the ambulance chaser, and pad the raise to increase their profits by 5-10%. The Hospital says "Boohoo, I can't possibly survive this assault if I don't raise my rates accordingly!" so they accommodate the insurance company and jack their rates up an additional 5-10% to increase their profit margins. Everyone pats each other on the back, wash and repeat. The problem is, 5-10% starts looking like business as usual, and the only way for a CEO to stand out with his shareholders, is to bring in 10-20%. Then 15-30%. On and on. Until now a hospital charges $15 for a Tums, or $20 for a travel size box of Kleenex. Or the one I love, nearly $400 for a $1.60 spinal tap needle.

    Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of greedy asshole lawyers. Likewise greedy asshole clients who think winning a tort is a lottery ticket. Greedy Insurance company executives. Even greedy money grubbing Hospital Administrators. Its the circle of life in a dystopian money grubbing circle jerk. So you can pick one clown out of the circus if you like, but there are plenty of other rings of action going on, and if you were to bring the owner of every palm being greased forward, I'm guessing you'd be looking at quite a crowd.

    Perhaps a more interesting conversation might be, how do we mozy our culture back to society based on personal responsibility, social service, and personal dignity. Sorry, forgive the brain-fart, just fantasizing.

  20. Prostate? by Tablizer · · Score: 2

    Whoever invents a way to detect prostate cancer without a TSA re-enactment deserves 10 fucking Nobel's.

  21. I actually chatted with him. by talldean · · Score: 2

    I'm late on this one, and haven't posted in awhile, but this is probably worth chiming in on. (Posted above anonymously, just replying in full here.) I chatted with him after the fair, and also chatted with his parents for awhile. He understood the theory behind and around his work, and by all accounts did the work himself; this wasn't a parent doing it for him. What he did is likely going to save lives. I also had a chance to talk to Nicholas Schiefer, who did a project called Apodura; better search of short content based on markov chain modelling. He also very much understood what he had done, how it worked, what some of the pitfalls were, and what he might do on it next. Or, in short, at least at the level of winner/runner-up, they've done the work themselves, and are phenomenally advanced students. If you have experience in the target field - which the judges do! - it should be *very* evident which students have done the work, which students have done the work with assistance from a university lab, and which students are essentially parroting knowledge that a parent handed to them. Students that do phenomenal work on their own and can speak intelligently about that to a subject matter expert, I'd certainly give the benefit of the doubt.