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Minecraft Mod Adds Emulated 6502 Processor
New submitter Direwolf20 writes "The Red Power 2 mod for Minecraft has recently been updated, and it adds a fully emulated 6502 processor that can be programmed in assembly, but comes with a Forth interpreter. From the article: 'Eloraam calls it the 65EL02, because "it supports all the 6502, 65C02, and part of the 65C816 instruction set" as well as "a set of completely new instructions and two addressing modes. Since the 65EL02 is an 8-bit CPU, Eloraam didn't have as many options for programming environments as we have on today's 64-bit computers. While it's possible to program the 65EL02 in assembly language, for general use she chose to implement a Forth interpreter. Further technical information about RedPower Control's 65EL02 is available on Eloraam's blog RP Control Internals, and on the RedPower wiki's page for Red Power Control.' (Fair disclosure: The video linked in the article is mine.)"
Can it run Doom?
So what type of Mhz can you get out of this thing? Is it feasible on modern hardware for it to run at a clock rate equal to or higher than say, the stock speed of a Commodore 64? And what about I/O interfaces like audio, video and joysticks? How far can this really be taken?
I watch the posters videos, they're pretty cool. If you're into minecraft, especially the mods, check him out. That being said, I'm pretty excited for this. I'm looking forward to seeing people's creations from this.
x86, oh yes, I'm pro.
Has anyone figured out how to install this mod? Directions on the site don't exist.
Because FUCK Redstone, seriously, it is awful. It is so half-assed and broken most of the time.
This mod fixes everything wrong with it as well as integrating redstone in to the world better in general.
I just hope mods will have full control of block behaviour as well as the ability to create blocks of various sizes and effects.
If they do, this game is just about to be reborn.
Spout, while nice, just isn't there.
Minecraft is essentially a level editor without a game to edit. Except instead using current gen game engines to recreate old mario levels, they're using it to simulate old technology.
Does anyone really care ?? Know what time ??
lda $ff
VIC chip rulez !! in 1981 !!
My impression of the metagame that is Minecraft is that doing things the hard and/or rube-goldberg way is part of the charm. There is some reason why people are trying to build ALUs in crap redstone logic rather than just alt-tabbing to the logic circuit simulator of their choice(or a VM, or an emulator of some popular retro architecture).
Given that, at what point do mods that improve minecraft's program-ability go too far and turn it from a perverse simulation game of enormous popularity into a really dreadful IDE?
Asperger's is one hell of a drug..
When they drop the Lego blocks and start letting you play with things at a molecular level, give me a call. Until then. *yawn*
---- Booth was a patriot ----
So, how long will it be before someone implements minecraft IN minecraft?
Since we are talking about implementing 6502s in questionably efficient ways, it seems like a good time to plug http://visual6502.org/. Efficient? No. Logic-accurate emulation of a 6502 implemented in javascript based entirely on photographs of a decapped 6502 die? Fuck Yeah.
So the guy wrote an emulator of the 6502 processor and various perihipals as a native-code plugin for the game. Technically, it does not seem so special, as various 6502 emulators have been written before; they just usually have a more usable GUI than operating them from within a 3D game.
I would be much more impressed if they actually implemented a general purpose computer by only using readily-available in-game building blocks and mechanics without code extensions to the game engine. This has been done for Conway's Game of Life and a Turing Machine before.
Has Arnie's code been open sourced yet?
I woul to run it in this emulator.
It can run Terminator.
With that in mind, I found the following quote from the creator of this processor amusing:
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Nothing says "fun in gaming" like a 6502 processor emulator. When I'm sitting down to play games, I often find myself thinking, "God, I wish I could do some assembly-language programming in this game". I don't think there's any question that was the biggest weakness of Call of Duty 4, Modern Warfare 3: Black Ops - there were no emulated 8-bit processors.
And there are actually some out there who don't understand why computer geeks are sometimes the butt of jokes.
You are welcome on my lawn.
It got my son interested in programming. Not this mod, but another. He actually programmed a pong game on his own over the course of a week using lua in a minecraft mod that has a computer that runs lua.
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Tidbits for Techs Technology Blog
I think a large part of it is the "because I can" factor. People often have some weird sideline projects on the go - I've hunted for the first three books in pi (by ISBN) and written a directed evolution program which is building a picture of Charles Darwin from random ellipses. Other people built computers in a game running on a computer just for the hell of it. No, it's never going to be the best 6502 emulator, the point is it's the best emulator written in Minecraft. Which is cool, obviously.
I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with 0x10^c, Notch's new game, which has an inbuilt and fully emulated 16 bit for each player. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a new ultra-low-power OS come out of it.
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...because the only logical conclusion from there is Minecraftduino.
What's the emulated hardware organization like? The 6502 didn't actually have designated input or output instructions, so as I recall, a programmer had to read or write to specific memory locations that were hardware mapped to various devices, especially peripheral devices.
Discounting the memory mapped IO locations, how much RAM does the emulated system have to play with? What sort of firmware is loaded into the emulated ROM?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Given that, at what point do mods that improve minecraft's program-ability go too far and turn it from a perverse simulation game of enormous popularity into a really dreadful IDE?
When someone abandons cool things like forth and tries to implement Visual Basic.
--
BMO
Because the environment "feels" real. You can run around and see the circuit pathways and actually visually understand how the processor works... as apposed to having some abstract flowchart or diagram.
this is the first thing i've ever read about minecraft that i actually understood... i know what a 6502 is.. i can (with a little refresher.. after all, it has been a couple decades) even write assembly for it..
but for the life of me, i still don't know what the fuck minecraft is or why it is remotely relevant to anything.
Since the only mod I know of that uses LUA and has programming, it very likely _is_ the same mod. RedPower2. This is just the newest version with a bigger "computer"
Normal people worry me!
Because the model that a JavaScript- or Python- based emulator uses can be implemented just as easily in other languages. The goal is to have a reference implementation against which other implementations' accuracy can be checked.
There's an emulated 6502 in Animal Crossing for the GameCube. It's used to run NES games obtained from Tom Nook and Crazy Redd.
So does this mean all old Apple code will run too?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_II_Plus
JJ
Since the only mod I know of that uses LUA and has programming, it very likely _is_ the same mod. RedPower2. This is just the newest version with a bigger "computer"
Its not RedPower2.
http://computercraft.info/
He also runs a minecraft server on our VPS.
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Tidbits for Techs Technology Blog
Given that, at what point do mods that improve minecraft's program-ability go too far and turn it from a perverse simulation game of enormous popularity into a really dreadful IDE?
Compare emacs to hurd and you'll see the lengths people go to to avoid doing something that looks like actual work.
The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
How else are you going,to get kids interested in building flip flops and alu's from scratch
However, from the embedded video in this post, it felt like I'm in a 3D VLSI design tool. Maybe in the future we'll be literally designing devices one block at a time. Either that or the Nazcas have been playing Minecraft all this while....
What are the odds that someone will make a virus for that emulated 16 bit computer?
Nick is cool. Totally separate from that though, he's also logical.
The odds that we're in an 'original' reality do seem to be close to zero. They drop further into insignificance every time that we find a new slot for life and a new causal agency promoting the emergence of intelligence.
The more interesting question in this area is whether lawyers are deliberately introduced as a random illogical agent of mutation, It's hard to find a purpose for them otherwise.
If so, does "BOISE" actually stand for "Buggered Offensive Irrational Sophistic Ego", or would that be attributing a modicum of (warped) intelligence to where there is only stinking putrefaction?
To me the whole Minecraft thing struck me as a video form of Lego but with more ways to put things together and hey! if folks like it why the fuck not. That was the whole fun of Lego when we were kids, just seeing where your imagination could take you and now you can do it as adults without having a big ass mess all over your table for days or weeks.
And as far as mods go? Again why the fuck not, if you have some idea that is cool but not quite doable with minecraft why not mod the thing? it isn't like we haven't seen games made better thanks to mods before. A couple of examples off the top of my head are all the Quake mods which (at least for me) were more fun that quake proper and Freelancer which last i checked STILL has people playing in huge worlds designed by modders.
As for when it turns into just an IDE I would say when it reaches the point you can't actually play the game proper, but just add shit to it. if you can still mine and craft with these mods attached I'd say its still a game, its just a game with more stuff in it. personally I bet the Minecraft designers are just happy people are finding ever more cool things to do with their little game.
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Well, there is more to it then that you see(though there is no denying the modders motivation and joys of hack'n'show)...Red Power started out with logic gate blocks and bundled signal cables.
They provided functionality for the player, not just as a gimmick.
Same applies for this mini computer, I belive part of the incentive was to add something bit more versatile and compact then hardwired circuts and logic blocks.
She released a frame-block, the idea is that you design a machine using whatever components you see fit(dohickies from her mod or from other mods) using the frames as a chassis, a motor block(s) can then translate the entire structure on block at a time when activated.(yes it supports recursion)
With the minicomputer as a microprocessor, you essentially got robotics in minecraft.
I have hopes that this will recreate the "look what i can do with my C64" era, kids playing multiplayer lego, and then suddenly bit by bit move from simple logic operations to assembly because they want to create more and more cool and complex stuff.
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Minecraft as a game...pretty much sucks...the survival aspect did add to it...and quite recently Notch added the final boss, which gave you an overall goal to reach.
But it felt kinda tacked on, since building palaces don't really help you much in that goal when you could just build an bunker with much less effort, not that there isnt alot of things you must construct items, transportation, etc to help gather resources and being systematic about it certainly gives credence to free form building as a challenge.
But its the ingenuity and complexity to build shit that makes it fun and with mods its been transformed from Duplo to Lego Mindstorm.
Though I leaning towards the notion that the engineering challenges you set yourself, classify this directionless sandbox enviroment as a game. But specific game design whether from Vanilla or mods is mostly pointless, you don't use one mod like how counter strike was for Half-Life.
Its several mods at a time which adds shit ton of variation and possibilities by combining them.
That end-boss can go fuck himself, I'm building a automated cooling system for my Nuclear reactor.
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We heard you like computers so we put a computer in your computer
Korma: Good
But just because YOU think it sucks doesn't mean other people feel the same. look at the Sims, i have NO fucking clue why but women just love that damned thing and funnily enough Age of Empires I of all games. My former boss showed me how you could bring in the females just by putting AoE I on the boxes in the window but when i watched them play...Did you know many women do NOT play that game like a guy does? i saw many build a big wall around their place and if any bad guys attacked they would just use priests to turn the bad guys on each other and then would just spend their time building stuff.
So maybe Minecraft is like that, who gives a shit about playing it the 'right" way when there are better things to do. I know I have a game (Just Cause II) where i never even fuck with the missions because i'm too busy doing crazy shit and blowing stuff up to care. I mean I'm using the grapple to tie the biker cops chasing me to trees like jedi and jumping out of flaming choppers and hijacking planes by riding them like a bronco, why would i care about your stupid mission?
In the end what matters is you are having FUN with a capital F, which sadly so damned many games seem to forget. Like Yahtzee at Zero punctuation said "its a sightseeing tour" where they take you from one set piece to another being led by the nose, fuck that. So I give the Minecraft guys credit (along with some of the other great indies like Torchlight series and Grimlock) because they remember that at the end of the day it doesn't matter what the "rules' or "goals" are, what matters is "Are You having FUN?" and from all the stuff being cooked up in MC I'd say that answer is a giant FUCK YES!
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
But just because YOU think it sucks doesn't mean other people feel the same. look at the Sims, i have NO fucking clue why but women just love that damned thing and funnily enough Age of Empires I of all games. My former boss showed me how you could bring in the females just by putting AoE I on the boxes in the window but when i watched them play...Did you know many women do NOT play that game like a guy does? i saw many build a big wall around their place and if any bad guys attacked they would just use priests to turn the bad guys on each other and then would just spend their time building stuff.
So maybe Minecraft is like that, who gives a shit about playing it the 'right" way when there are better things to do. I know I have a game (Just Cause II) where i never even fuck with the missions because i'm too busy doing crazy shit and blowing stuff up to care. I mean I'm using the grapple to tie the biker cops chasing me to trees like jedi and jumping out of flaming choppers and hijacking planes by riding them like a bronco, why would i care about your stupid mission?
In the end what matters is you are having FUN with a capital F, which sadly so damned many games seem to forget. Like Yahtzee at Zero punctuation said "its a sightseeing tour" where they take you from one set piece to another being led by the nose, fuck that. So I give the Minecraft guys credit (along with some of the other great indies like Torchlight series and Grimlock) because they remember that at the end of the day it doesn't matter what the "rules' or "goals" are, what matters is "Are You having FUN?" and from all the stuff being cooked up in MC I'd say that answer is a giant FUCK YES!
This ISNT a subjective thing...if a game does not have coherent, rules, obstacles and goals its probably going to be lacking...if it lacks any of these aspects its not a game at ALL.
Sims is a spin of of Sim City... although the scale is much lower and not as challenging, in the bare essence the same concept. Organize/build/budget a city, organize/build/budget your household.
There is nothing peculiar about your AoE example, its a strategy game...and the game is to devise your own strategy...if focusing on priests and walls works...it works! Its a risk if the enemy breaches the wall and reaches the defencelss priests...but its still within the scope of the game.
Now that said I'm defending Minecraft, not for its gameplay but for the fact that its more or less a platform, for modding and emergent gameplay.
That said...for most other computer games in the genres i care about...I CARE about the being provided a challenge...because that IS fun, its why games ARE FUN, game design is the art of providing play through interaction and stimulation. That does not exclude giving the player a wide range of options, but absolute freedom is pointless without limitations.
If you are annoyed that some people thinks games are objectively shit, then you should experience the smoldering rage of people who have had a decade with the one disappointing let down after another.
And yes, I am an angry cunt...
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*nods* that is actually my though here. RP5 has always had logic blocks that condense large redstone devices into single block, but I feel that including a full virtual machine to control in-game devices goes a bit far. Granted, like any mod, I can just not use it of course ^_^ though sometimes I worry that RP is slowly eating other mods. It is often coupled with things like BuildCraft or IndustrialCraft because of its useful logic components, but she seems to be trying to replace the functionality in those with her own duplicate solutions.
Though I wonder how much of the motivation for the VM was to make frames practicle. She has voiced displeasure for BuildCraft and Railcraft's way of having complex 'magic' blocks, but duplicating that functionliaty with frames requires a lot more logic then is often practicle.... so the VM fills that gap by adding its own magic back in.
Thing is, as a "game" minecraft does suck, as does The Sims. Both have had game-like elements tacked on to them but at their core they are not really games.
Keep in mind, saying something isn't a 'game' doesn't mean it is not fun or is a bad project, it simply states that a particular label doesn't apply well to it. Will Wright did a good job of describing the category of 'toys' or simulations rather then 'games'... all go under the umbrella of 'fun' and can be awesome, but what they mechanically are is a bit different.
My son is the same, he's 11 and wanting to create Minecraft Mods has caused him to:
- Learn Java (he had a few brief experiences with Processing but now he's reading the Nutshell books)
- Decompile Minecraft
- Find and follow instructions on how to do all this (Web and YouTube it seems)
- Write his own mods
He's currently at the stage where he's letting his brother have his mods, and we're starting to talk to him about the implications of distribution (support, licensing etc.).
I'm doing very little except providing the right tools at the right time (IntelliJ has been excellent for navigating the code base).
Very impressed with Minecraft and how much he's been motivated to learn. I had tried to teach him some programming before but never really got anywhere, now he's so deep into aspects of Java that I can't really help him... and I've not had to utter a single word of encouragement or assistance.
Minecraft feels like it is the BBC Model B of his generation.
Work blog: http://elnblog.com Personal blog: http://simoncoles.org
If anyone wants to compile stuff for it i'd look into cc65, just started using that to compile c code down to my Apple IIe, works like a charm :) Not sure if you can run any app/disk image on Minecraft's processor, but its worth looking into.
Very high, I'd imagine it will become an integral part of the game and we'll also see virus detection programs, trusted suppliers, walled garden OS's and the rest of the computing ecosystem recreated in miniature. We're basically looking at re-running the internet from the mid-1980s but with more users from the outset, I think it'll be fascinating.
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EXACTLY! You nailed it friend! look at AoE I and the ways the girls played it, it struck me as model building more than a game in the classic sense. hell they didn't even seem slightly interested in "winning' which if it was just a different strategy as the other poster suggested then the end goal of the game should have been the same but it wasn't.
And take what i do in Just Cause II. that game has missions and goals but i frankly don't give a shit about any of them, i could just spend hours on that game playing "Last Action Hero" and coming up with the absolute most crazy shit i can possibly come up with in game, like racing along the freeway in a sportscar with guns on it just doing the most insane jumps and bad guy battles across 4 lane highways you have ever seen. Does the game give me points for this? Some other measure of progress? nope other than the Steam achievements which i earned ages ago it don't give me shit...and i honestly DO NOT CARE. because to me its just too damned much fun to turn off the in game music and have some heavy metal blasting while I make the cab scenes in die hard III look like driving miss Daisy.
So I don't even know if Wright is right in that we need a different classification for these things because, ultimately, what is the REAL point of every game in history? TO HAVE FUN. and THAT is what is the true heart of it for me, if I am truly having fun i honestly don't give a shit if it can be listed as a classical game or not, if I'm controlling it and its on my screen and I'm laughing and playing and having a ball that to me is what makes it a game.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
> i have NO fucking clue why but women just love that damned thing and funnily enough Age of Empires I of all games
Generally,
Men love to Destroying. i.e. "Fuck it, or Fuck it up" (which is why First Person Shooters sell so well)
Women love Creating and Relationships (which is why The Sims has so many women playing)
It's not rocket science - to study game design is to study psychology, Yin / Yang, etc.
How did you know? Sometimes you spend loads of time building up resources before you attack.
If you think that is weird...i once saw gyrls playing counter strike...IMAGINE THAT.
Also...just to finish this...fun is a louse description of..:ANYTHING!
If its FUN its a Game?! WTF!
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