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Whose Cameras Are Watching New York Roads?

Posted by timothy on from the hope-it's-the-model-un dept.

NormalVisual writes "License-plate reading cameras are popping up on utility poles all over St. Lawrence County in upstate New York, but no one is willing to say who they belong to. One camera was found by a utility crew, removed from the pole, and given to the local police. 'Massena Police Chief Timmy Currier said he returned it to the owner, but wouldn't say how he knew who the owner was, nor would he say who he gave it to....(Andrew) McMahon, the superintendent at Massena Electric Department, said one of his crews found a box on one of their poles and took it down because "it was in the electric space," the top tier of wires on the pole above the telephone and cable TV wires, and whoever put it there had taken a chance with electrocution. He said they had never received a request or been informed about its placement.'"

42 of 376 comments (clear)

  1. Treaspassing by nurb432 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If they didn't have authorization from the city/etc then not only were they doing something a bit on the dangerous side, but its also illegal.

    If they did, then its part of the city network anyway and not a huge deal.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Treaspassing by donaggie03 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What is the point of having these cameras, if not to catch speeders and red-light runners? If those two ARE the point of having these cameras, then people would be receiving citations based on photos from these cameras. So the immediate question that comes to my mind is: are people getting these citations, or not?

      --
      Three days from now?? Thats tomorrow!! ~Peter Griffin
    2. Re:Treaspassing by whoever57 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What is the point of having these cameras, if not to catch speeders and red-light runners? If those two ARE the point of having these cameras, then people would be receiving citations based on photos from these cameras.

      My guess would be a three-letter-agency, in the "war on (terror|drugs|communism|whatever)"

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    3. Re:Treaspassing by skids · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My guess would be a three-letter-agency, in the "war on (terror|drugs|communism|whatever)"

      My guess is that it is more commodity than that. What PI wouldn't find the answer to the question "did this car go down this road between these dates" unworthy of a small disbursement from their client's expense account fairly frequently?

      --
      Someone had to do it.
    4. Re:Treaspassing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your supreme court agrees you have no expectation of privacy on a public road, now shut the hell up and enjoy your "freedom".

    5. Re:Treaspassing by demachina · · Score: 5, Insightful

      DEA has had license plate reading cameras on U.S. highways for a while. In particular they record every car on some routes in California, Texas, Arizona and recently Utah using ELSAG cameras though they usually make no attempt to hide them.

      They analyze the data looking for people transporting drugs from the Mexican border among other things. Maybe they are just expanding the program to watch the traffic along the northern border too.

      So, yea welcome to the big brother police state, we've been in it a while now. Say cheese!!

      --
      @de_machina
    6. Re:Treaspassing by kheldan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're assuming that they weren't clandestinely placed by a clandestine three-alphabet-letter government agency.

      If this sort of shit keeps up, I wouldn't be surprised if certain people start destroying ALL public cameras on general principles -- and I wouldn't blame anyone who did. George Orwell must be spinning in his grave about now and/or laughing riotously, wherever he might be, because He Told Us So and we apparently didn't listen.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    7. Re:Treaspassing by guttentag · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's worth noting that Massena is on the Canadian border. All that separates them from Canada is the St Lawrence River, and there's a bridge a few miles east of downtown. If it is the DEA, perhaps they're watching people fill their prescriptions with cheap canadian generics they can't buy in the U.S.

      Massena is also home to a major hydroelectric power dam, three large aluminum plants (two of which are idle) and the Eisenhower lock on the St. Lawrence seaway (any international ships en route to the great lakes have to stop there), so it could be a place of interest for agencies/companies other than the DEA.

    8. Re:Treaspassing by machine321 · · Score: 3, Funny

      George Orwell must be spinning in his grave

      That's a better clean power source than taping buttered bread to a cat.

    9. Re:Treaspassing by netmater · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It would be interesting if the next time the power company finds one, they keep it and inform the police department that the "rightful" owner may come by anytime to claim it and pay for the removal expense.

    10. Re:Treaspassing by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's what big tinfoil wants you to believe.

    11. Re:Treaspassing by jetole · · Score: 5, Interesting

      My guess would be a three-letter-agency, in the "war on (terror|drugs|communism|whatever)"

      My guess would agree with you because...

      1. 1) If this was a police or city camera, it likely wouldn't have been placed that high up since the lower the camera is, the easier it would be to view the license plate. The higher it is, the greater the viewing angle and the slimmer the image of the plate the harder it becomes for a program to correctly distinguish the important features. Well... this applies to police looking at license plates at least. Automated tickets for running red lights and speeders. I suppose there are possible reasons why the city could have placed them up there and in doing so wanted them as high as possible (I can't think of why they would want them at all but I guess it's possible) but see the reasons below for why I don't think the city would have done this either.
      2. 2) If this was a police or city camera, it wouldn't have needed to be placed "in the electric space" on the pole for electricity. The electric space doesn't mean it's the only spot for power on the pole. It means it's reserved for transporting massive amounts of electricity and it's reserved at higher place on the pole so that it doesn't become a hazard to less informed telco and cable company workers. It's dangerous and you don't want anyone near it who isn't fully trained in it. Now a camera doesn't even require a wired connection for communication. We have them all over where I live (Miami and Fort Lauderdale area), you see them all of the time on lights, on the highway, etc, and they all have antennae on them for wireless communications. These cameras can receive power and communicate equally at lower levels (when it's this small level of height difference). The police or city would have no reason or want to place them that high for technical purposes. If the cameras are not wireless equipped or they need a faster connection then what the wireless can provide (high def, high fps over long range wireless from many devices simultaneously) then they would still be in the proper zone for cable or telephone links in that zone. They have everything they need in that zone on the poll.
      3. 3) If this were a police or city camera, the power company would have already known, would not have dismounted it and would not have brought it to the police.
      4. 4) The police and city would both admit that it belongs to them if it did. It would not be a secret. They have so many bureaucratic policies that they are not allowed to go through some move like that and not inform the public when they did. I remember in a town a grew up in when the police started using cruisers marked as taxis to trick drunk drivers into not thinking it was police, making it easier to follow them without being noticed, etc, I don't remember the details but it was in the paper with a statement from the police about it. Government, at least at these basic levels, are not allowed to keep any secrets. They are required to inform the public (if your city has cameras, try it, ask the police and they will tell you it's theirs).
      5. 5) The police and city don't install cameras! They don't have a camera installation department. They don't want or need one. They contract this out. This is a one time roll out. They install the cameras and then they are installed. They wouldn't have a pre-existing camera installation department and if they know that they will have no practical use once the cameras are installed then they wouldn't create this department just to have to disband it soon thereafter. They contract this out to qualified individuals who are familiar with these polls and understand what zones it's allowed to be mounted in.
      6. 6) A properly done installation will leave details of the installation at the location. What I mean is these boxes that are mounted on the polls will say something like "Property of Comcast Cable, for problems call 1-800-555-7264" or something like that. It serves to notify people on the pole who
  2. Whatever happened to transparency? by JustShootMe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not as worried about the existence of the cameras as I am that lots of people seem to know whose they are and no one's telling. That's kind of the antithesis of government transparency. I hope someone sues under FOIA.

    --
    For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    1. Re:Whatever happened to transparency? by JoshuaZ · · Score: 5, Informative

      Most states have their own versions of FOIA, including New York. See http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/New_York_FOIA_procedures.

    2. Re:Whatever happened to transparency? by JustShootMe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not agreeing or disagreeing with your point, but since Mitt isn't going to be any better, according to you, why are you focusing on Obama? Agreed that he is president, but implicit in your statement is an admission that the problem is bigger than Obama.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    3. Re:Whatever happened to transparency? by FudRucker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      dont worry, the new boss will be just as shitty as the old boss, at this point in US Politics i do not think voting will fix that corrupted den of vipers in Wash.D.C.

      --
      Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    4. Re:Whatever happened to transparency? by epyT-R · · Score: 4, Insightful

      um what? neither party cares about our freedoms.

    5. Re:Whatever happened to transparency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Both the efforts to get Osama and the banking reform passed were in the works before Obama was even nominated. Keep your eye on the ball. No administration starts from scratch.

      As for ObamaCare? Seriously? ObamaCare is nothing more than a bailout for "big pharma" in the guise of a social program for Joe Sixpack. I know this, I work for big pharma and the CEO of my little slice of the healthcare pie didn't even try to hide how pleased he was with the outcome of the legislation. Oh, our stock is also at an all time high as well as cash flow. If ObamaCare was going to be putting things right for The Little Man(tm) than why is it that the healthcare field is booming right now and they're only ramping up for even more business as the costs of healthcare to the individual continued to rise at a record pace? I know this for a fact. I'm in the middle of it.

  3. Get a bat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And start smashing. See who comes calling.

    1. Re:Get a bat by stevegee58 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Even better: find one, dismount it and take it home to have a look at it.
      Much more interesting.

    2. Re:Get a bat by jamesh · · Score: 3, Informative

      Real guns work even better than paintball guns... just sayin.

    3. Re:Get a bat by cayenne8 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Real guns work even better than paintball guns... just sayin.

      Yeah, but you can get in trouble for shooting guns in public....how about some of those extremely high powered lasers you can buy off the internet...I'd have to guess a blast of one of those would burn out any sensors on the cameras beyond repair.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    4. Re:Get a bat by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Some spray paint works equally well. For deniability, dip a rag in dirty water and just smear the lens. Then just wait to see who comes to fix it. For added fun, set up your own counter-camera nearby to monitor the first camera repair.

  4. open records request by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    File an official request demanding that they release any pertinent information related to the owner/operator of those cameras. There is no legal basis for them to deny you that information (operational security or an active investigation).

  5. They have to possess some sort of information... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    These camera units have to have some sort of clue about their owner(unless they are configured in the not-so-terribly-useful 'record only to local storage, somebody climbs up when it is time to collect" mode). Are they connected to fixed wiring? Do they have a data radio of some flavor? WiFi? Cellular? Any SIM card to be pulled? Serial numbers, vendor information, dates of manufacture, etc, etc.

    Unless somebody went to considerable trouble to do this in some deep-black-ops kind of way, they should leak clues like a sieve once somebody just gives the cops the finger and takes one apart...

  6. Obvious by stevegee58 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's DHS. Canadian border right?

  7. Higher powered lasers... by gstrickler · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...can burn out some CCDs, or at least temporarily "blind" them.

    And now I'm expecting a visit from DHS for disseminating easily available info. It's been nice not knowing you.

    --
    make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
  8. DEA by Sensi · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's the DEA. Doing the same thing outside of California. Logging traffic to find patterns of drug runners across the border.

  9. Re:DEA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I live in Watertown, which is in the county south of St. Lawrence. Our local online newswank (newzjunky.com) has a few stories confirming this--federal grants funding license plate readers used by law enforcement for various and sundry tracking tasks, including mapping drug runners and catching local burglars.

  10. Homeland Security! by gti_guy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Homeland Security agressively patrols that area since it borders Canada and has a international crossing at Cornwall. I've been stopped at road blocks hosted jointly by NYS Police & Homeland Security. The State Police stayed in the background while my car was singled out by Homeland Security for a walk-around sniff by their dog and an uncomfortable amount of questioning. I'm an old Unix admin who does not resemble a terrorist in the slightest. Also worth noting that that St. Regis Native American Reservation sits on both sides of the border there. Perhaps someone is trying to keep tabs on them??

  11. Re:FIrst Post by Genda · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

    -- Mark Twain

  12. Mount it in your bathroom by swb · · Score: 5, Funny

    And let them watch you shit.

  13. Akwesasne Reservation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    They are watching for smuggling, both ways. Into and out of Canada.

    The reservation is on both sides of the river.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akwesasne

    http://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2009/07/more-from-the-frontier-largest-northern-new-york-drug-bust-ever.html

    This is just what they catch, and they aren't looking too closely, or haven't in the past. Very quiet there. I'm very familiar with the area and it has always been a smugglers paradise, prohibition til now. A lot of old Victorian houses up there have secret hidden rooms. If you ask the homeowner why they are there, they usually claim for the underground railroad. BS, these houses were built after the civil war, and most in the 1920's. Huge fortunes were made moving booze.

    Everyone there knows what's going on. My best estimate is that 50% of the imported drugs on the east cost come in to the country from there.

    There was also a huge case in the late 90's where a 1-2 billion dollar a year cigarette smuggling ring (moving the cigs north, into canada) was broken up. Phillip Morris had several execs indited.

    Big business.

    My guess on the agency, in order of likelihood.

    DEA
    ATF
    Border Patrol
    FBI
    DHS (using parts of the above)
    Canada, with support from any of the above.

  14. Party loyalty means you can be ignored ... by drnb · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And voting for Romney with the expectation that he wouldn't be any better, i.e. worse, would be what?

    It would be sending a message to politicians: perform or be thrown out. No consideration for party, no consideration for platform, no consideration for being a nice guy, etc. Pure performance.

    Politicians will not change their behavior until they fear for their jobs. As long as voters are loyal to political parties, platforms, etc things will not change. Politicians need to feel that there is no base they can rely upon.

    Also consider that if you are loyal to a party or platform you are essentially irrelevant. One side can count on your vote and the other side can do nothing to get your vote. Both can ignore you (in their actions, they will probably say the right thing in speeches) with no real negative consequences.

    1. Re:Party loyalty means you can be ignored ... by forgoodmeasure · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Generally speaking, that's a reasonable position. The twist is that the US system is designed for consultation and compromise. So the Republicans want one thing, the Dems the other and they're suppose to split the difference.

      What the Republicans have discovered is that compromises tend to make the President look good. So they've stopped compromising. Mitch McConnell has been pretty explicit about this: he will only sign off on a Dem proposal if it's something, "...I and my members would do anyway..." http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/01/mitch_mcconnell_the_most_hones.html Most Democratic systems work this way: members of the majority coalition support each other and the minority lodges objections. Therein lies accountability: if you don't like the coalition, throw them out.

      The problem in the US is that the minority party can sabotage and obstruct and reap electoral benefits when the other side fails to get anything done. Indeed, economic sabotage becomes a viable strategy, which explains Republican resistance to stimulus packages and textbook economics: what's in it for them?

      At any rate, if you truly believe what you say, you should vote for Romney, a Democratic House and a Republican Senate. That is, throw the bums out in the legislature *and* the executive. Frankly, I find this nuts: I only support pro-Science parties which for the past 10+ years excludes the GOP. Too bad our winner-take-all voting system blocks the emergence of more choices: a European style conservative party would earn my consideration.

  15. Where the hell Liberty has gone to ? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Is this USA that we are talking about?

    Is this USA where the RULE OF LAW takes precedence ?

    Is this the one and only USA where Liberty is everything?

    How come the Americans just sit there and do nothing when some nefarious 3-letter-agencies get to do whatever they want, whenever they want, where-ever they want?

    If you guys in America are really concern of human rights, start to fight for your own human rights !!

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:Where the hell Liberty has gone to ? by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      if you fight for your rights, they take you away in the night (its the law... no joke)

    2. Re:Where the hell Liberty has gone to ? by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Here's the part I like. Thirty years ago we railed on the soviet union for attacking other sovereign governments and forcing their way of government on them, for imprisoning people without rights or due process, and for a long ugly war in Afghanistan where many civilians were killed in a fairly pointless war. Oh, and for taking away civil liberties from their people and suppressing people with the 'wrong ideas' or for practicing religion. This is how we demonized them to support the spending on covert and direct operations and a military build-up that cost trillions.

      Today we attack other sovereign nations and force democracy on them, we put people up in Guantanamo Bay, and we've had a long ugly war in Afghanistan where many civilians were killed in a pointless war. We've systematically removed rights from our citizens and given them to the police to suppress wars on drugs, terrorism, or whatever the money-waster flavor of the month is. We suppress people with the wrong ideas, and as a Christian nation that was founded by people fleeing religious persecution, we're rather un-christian-like in our treatment of non christians. Now the muslim extremists demonize us on the same grounds that we demonized the Soviets over.

      So we were either wrong then, or wrong now. Maybe both.

  16. SCOTUS by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But the liberal minority of the court has expressed a willingness to revisit that law, and the court itself is concerned enough with the implications of modern technology that it has actually ruled against GPS-tracking drug dealers for long periods of time.

    --
    -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
  17. Re:FIrst Post by Sulphur · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Albert Einstein gave us some good quotes. Ever heard this one? "The world we have made, as a result of the level of thinking we have done thus far, creates problems we cannot solve at the same level of thinking at which we created them."

    What got us into this mess will not get us out.

  18. Re:FIrst Post by geminidomino · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." --Brian Kernighan

  19. Re:FIrst Post by Truedat · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In response to Twain, how will we ever transition away from being fools unless we practice speaking out, are willing to make mistakes and then learn from them? Pithy witticisms like this are all very well for a little amusement but I sometimes worry that people take them seriously.