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Online Courses and the $100 Graduate Degree
First time accepted submitter GCA10 writes "Forbes reports on the latest project of Google Fellow Sebastian Thrun (the proponent of self-driving cars.) He's moved on to education now, believing that conventional university teaching is way too costly, inefficient and ineffective to survive for long. So he started Udacity, which aims to deliver an online version of a master's degree for $100 per student. From the article: 'Udacity’s earliest course offerings have been free, and although Thrun eventually plans to charge something, he wants his tuition schedule to be shockingly low. Getting a master’s degree might cost just $100. After teaching his own artificial intelligence class at Stanford last year—and attracting 160,000 online signups—Thrun believes online formats can be far more effective than traditional classroom lectures. “So many people can be helped right now,” Thrun declares. “I see this as a mission.”'"
I thought his whimsical attitude and passion for teaching were amazing and I learned a lot for zero dollars. I'd easily pay 100 bucks to have him teach me more stuff.
Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
I want to see free education thru the PhD level as some countries offer. There is no reason it should cost a fortune to become educated. It's a legal racket, much like for-profit healthcare and pharmaceuticals.
What stops me from going back to college now in my mid-forties is ROI. I cannot afford to be in massive debt what with a wife and kid. My wife has massive school debt from her degree and it would be grossly unfair to add to that already burdensome bill.
Great idea... praying it succeeds.
You get what you pay for
And yet some of the best things in life are free. It would be nice to add a world class education to that list.
Everybody knows you can't get a quality education for cheap! This is the land of the Private University that offers freedom by enslaving you in debt.
"The idea of a degree is that you spend a fixed time right after high school to educate yourself"
Some stuff seems to be padded out to fit a 2 or 4 year plan when offering it NON degree / as badges system is better.
http://chronicle.com/article/Badges-Earned-Online-Pose/130241/
We need more Tech schools / apprenticeships as yes you do need some training but CS is not IT and 2-4 years is a long time to sit in class room with at times learning very few skills needed to do the job.
That said, there are many important things that simply can't be taught via computer. I am an evolutionary biologist (specifically human evolution), so that is what I know: you can't learn anatomy at the graduate level without cadavers, period. You can't learn biological variation without dissecting and studying many cadavers. You can't learn comparative anatomy without dissecting animals. You can't learn the fossil record without handling the fossils (or high quality casts). You can't learn population genetics without spending time in a sequencing lab. You can't learn field biology without going to the field. You can't learn paleontology without going to the field. There are many things that I learned in my graduate training that simply can't be taught on a computer.
Personal tutelage by a master is similarly an irreplaceable experience. I've learned an enormous amount of information from watching online lectures and taking online courses in subjects outside of my specialties - but I would absolutely not consider myself on par with people who have traditional graduate training in these fields. I loved the AI class - but Professor Thrun never discussed my ideas with me, criticized my writings on the topic, and certainly never helped me design a project and then execute it. I can't call, Skype, or email authorities in AI to chat about the newest papers in the field - because I simply never met them through the online course.
As enthusiastic as I am about the exciting possibilities of newfangled gadgetry, computers and the internet are still tools with limitations. Powerful tools, but not totipotent tools. Sometimes newer isn't better. Sometimes newer is worse.
Right now we have testing centers for vendor-specific certifications.
Run the classes on-line for whatever price.
Those who just want to learn can stop there.
Those who want a degree can pay to take the tests at the testing centers.
For more complex tests either offer them in central locations or have traveling test sites. These would be more expensive than the other tests, but probably a LOT cheaper than the current model.
there are people going to college who are not cut out off it and there are lot's of classes that should be in college any ways.
Of course it is possible to get a world class education for $100 or less, but education isn't why people go to college. The real reasons to get a college degree go beyond simple knowledge:
A) Get a worthless piece of paper to distinguish yourself. Sure, it isn't good, it isn't a positive trend, but in many fields unless you have a bachelor's or master's degree your application won't even be looked at.
B) Provides opportunities for networking with like minded students and employers. In high school most people couldn't meet with very many like minded students, especially if they were into computer science. There is a reason many start-ups happen in college, you can get all the "right" type of people, you get the people with vision, you get the code monkeys skilled with every programming language under the sun, you get the hardware people and you have thousands of potential customers right at your university.
C) It provides a chance to go out and see the world. Being a student you usually don't have much of anything tying you down to a single country. I mean, sure, you've got family, but spending a year in France, six months in Singapore, a few weeks in Andorra isn't anything major.
D) It provides a lot of "hobby time" to work on pet projects and research, especially at graduate level. When you are employed for a company, everything needs to be justified in terms of profit. In college you can just do things for the heck of it.
Every "book knowledge" thing you can learn in college can be learned for free online. In the rare case it can't be found online, it can be found in the textbook which you can buy without registering for the class. Yes, you do have a handful of really good professors, but the best thing they provide isn't book knowledge, it is guidance.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
... I'm not sure. Insightful? Funny? Guess it depends on how you view it...
Three Squirrels
and why should I have to pay $$$ for humanities classes for a IT or engineering job?? at least some of that stuff can be offered at a much lower cost.
It's all the filler (that are some schools you don't have that much choice over) at some schools a over load of GEN edu classes (does a IT / desktop job really need tig and other higher Math classes?) some required classes are just there to fill up classes and to make people pay more (some schools still have the swim test)
Why do have pay fees at the college price level to take a swim test??
Your problem (and most people's it seems) is that you think higher ed is supposed to be vocational training. That is what trade schools and community colleges should be for. Universities exist not only to train you in a particular field, but also to make you a well rounded educated person. Yes, that even involves some level of education in physical skills you may not possess (I certainly enjoyed my Archery class). Unfortunately our society has grown to value the Bachelor's degree so much, that institutions of higher education are being pushed more and more into being really long, expensive, trade schools.
I did not particularly like his teaching style (in the AI class), however that comment applies to any class, free or not. I do 100% like the idea of offering education for a reasonable price.
Look at it this way; in the future an employer needs to select a new hire. 2 people apply, both with master's degress. One paid $40,000 a year for it, one paid $100 a year. Which is the smarter one?
Indeed, you get what you paid for, not.
slashdot troll = you make a compelling argument I do not like the implications of.
No serorities, frat parties, or jocks. Just a guy sitting in front of his computer in his underwear filling out quizzes. The plot will center around the reliability of his Internet connection and the pesky neighbours who keep knocking at his door.
I got paid $25,000 to get a masters degree - tuition waiver and stipend for two years. who's the smartest in the room?
Look at it this way; in the future an employer needs to select a new hire. 2 people apply, both with master's degress. One paid $40,000 a year for it, one paid $100 a year. Which is the smarter one?
So one went to Harvard and the other watched some Youtube videos and maybe emailed in a couple of tests and a thesis of some sort to an advisor of such demand that they charged nothing for their services.
In the grand scheme of things, yeah, the second one might be "smarter", but as a real employer I will have to go with the first person.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
As part of that $40k you're also getting contacts and connections. You think Prof. Thrun is going to recommend you to a colleague who might be hiring, or provide a reference for you? Because I know my master's advisor certainly will.
Which one is going to stick to the job because he sold his first born child to cover the debts?
You're nothing; like me.
You can't give someone a master's degree unless you can evaluate that they know their stuff, or else the degree becomes worthless.
Between grade inflation and cheating it seems like that is awfully close to true for the vast majority of degrees today.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
and if we don't change the system master / MBA will take over Bachelor's. So then you will have people loaded with loans. Be in school for 6+ years post HS with few real job skills to show for it.
An awful lot of Americans are paying a lot and getting very little out of college right now... especially at for-profit universities. Every taxpayer has an interest in this subject because of federal student loans.
Major reform is going to be necessary because the college debt bubble is going to pop sooner rather than later. I applaud this man's effort to bring some fiscal sanity to the world of higher education.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
for $40,000 I bet HE would.
slashdot troll = you make a compelling argument I do not like the implications of.
One paid $40,000 a year for it, one paid $100 a year. Which is the smarter one?
That's a good question.
One hundred dollars buys two or three hours of time from a professional tutor or teaching assistant.
Assuming no laboratory or administrative costs, how valuable is an education that you got for the cost of two or three hours of one-on-one attention (including teaching and evaulation) per year?
~Idarubicin
I suppose that's true, until people who have completed the less expensive one prove more capable and useful, in significant numbers, over time.
Then you take the better one. Who actually cares what you paid for your degree? The point of having one (nowadays) is to determine how useful you'll be before you have a real work history.
text books. Html 5 interactive text books. Start with K-5, then move on up.
Please.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
As part of that $40k you're also getting contacts and connections.
You hit upon the true value of college, the social network. College offers everyone an opportunity to leave their socioeconomic environment behind and move into a new and, hopefully, better one. That is one reason fraternities and sororities continue to thrive as they process these people into their alumni systems. The college social system is far from perfect, but it is probably more efficient than its education system. Ask Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, or Mark Zuckerberg, three famous dropouts.
As a scientific programmer, I find it amazing that any significant portion of people in serious IT place no value on math higher than and including trigonometry. Is this actually the case?
And as a citizen in a democracy, I find it amazing and frightening that a significant portion of people who actually vote see no value in general education courses. When I was a kid in the 90's, we used to call someone a "tool" as an insult.
But you are missing the other part of that equation which is all the insider bullshit and the prestige the name dropping can bring you. I've known guys that have landed 6 figure salary jobs straight out of college with frankly mediocre grades, how? because the one in charge of hires was a guy that went to the same frat. My oldest is doing pre-med at the local college and just because he's done charity work with one of the local churches where the pastor is a big alumni he is gonna go through pre-med with practically no debt at all and has even got a local doctor sponsoring him for all of his text books and a $2500 a quarter stipend.
A LOT of what you get out of these colleges is about networking and name dropping more than it is simply the education itself. Go to an Ivy League college and join one of the frats and it'll be damned hard for you to fail anyway but up, all because of the connections you end up with. While i don't personally think that is worth the frankly insane prices that higher ed is charging it certainly isn't worthless either.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Here's the deal.. I agree with the concept, principle, and methodology here. Overall I think it is a great idea. Problem is that the govt is hand over fist into the higher education market. Student loans which are conveniently not unloadable by bankruptcy have reached almost a trillion dollars of unforgiveable, never ending debt, and just a year or so ago the entire financing program was completely taken over by the govt. This kind of money does not simply walk out of Mordor.
I'm in america too. civil engineering master's degree at one of the UCs. a research stipend covered tuition and raman money. I'm lucky - the program had enough grants that all 20 masters students had funding.
I'm an Egineer and did Calculus, Complex Math, Applied Math, Statistics etc. In practice I do Reading and Riting and almost zero Rithmetic.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
So, you say, it's a meritocracy where ass licking skills are what matters instead of academics. Yeah, I've been to a U.S. school too, and while the quality of education was way better than what I had in Europe, the social side of it was a disaster. I tried to stay on campus only for the classes and library time.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
It's very sad that those connections matter. School should be about what you know and what you can do, not about your ass licking skills :(
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
You're right! And with an initial signup of 160,000 students (I'm certain that number will increase as popularity increases) at $100 a student, I think there may be a fair bit of money exchanging hands.
The problem I find with this crazy old fashion idea is that there's no way tell if it actually amounts to much, if anything. All I always hear is from people who believe in the idea pronouncing that the world will end because people are not up to snuff on their [insert subject name here]. All I can see in real life is people who get suckered because they fail at fairly basic applied natural sciences, math, psychology, sociology, finance, etc. None of the arts and other humanities seem to matter at all. Even history is exaggerated, because on its own it's just a big body of experimental results, so to speak, with no theories as to how one would apply them to anything. Similar to a lot of psychology and sociology, of course. People point to stuff happening in the past and say: see, had people known this, they'd have averted problem X. And it keeps getting repeated and taken in on faith, with not a single decent study to show that it's actually so. Sad.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Welcome to Feudalism 2.0, Millenium Edition.
http://www.zombieapocalypse.tv/
Why pay?
Thunderwood is FREE: http://thunderwoodcollege.com/
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
People take 13 years of general ed classes before they ever get to college. If they haven't gotten a decent general education by that time, they are not going to get it with a few more years.
I paid a total of 10000$ to get a BSc, an MSc and a PhD in Computer Science in Italy. I now work happily as a researcher in the Netherlands.
Higher education should not be treated as an enterprise. Higher knowledge is a very scarce commodity (an online recording system/whatever is not the same thing, otherwise the easily available books would be more than sufficient to get any degree); this means that schools are effectively a monopoly without much competition.
Who can solve this? The state. Look all over Europe for the simple solution: higher education benefits everyone and is paid (because paid it must be) by the state mostly and the end user a little bit. The little bit in some cases is increased if the student is not passing enough exams. There are also *lots* of scholarships that both look at ability and low income, and these often end up supporting poorer students who do not necessarily have excellent results but just ok results.
Why does the state need to step in? Because Communism is great and Mother Russia is close-by? No: the state needs to step in because the gain with more educated citizens is of the collective, not just the subject of the education.
My book: Friendly F#, fun with game development and XNA; my game: Galaxy Wars by VSTeam; my gamedev language: Casanova.
The business case here is that it is expensive (time-wise) to develop content for 100 students, but becomes much cheaper to do so for 200,000. There is a whole industry built on updating learning material every year. Sure, we learn more about how to effectively teach all the time, but neither our knowledge of the universe (at least the sub-set of that knowledge that we need to teach the average student) nor our knowledge of how to teach better grows so fast as to require a complete re-write of the curriculum each year. There is a lot of fat in the system that can be done away with. This is an attempt to do just that. Maybe we can't effectively teach without face-to-face contact. Maybe we can use that face-to-face contact better. The lines and limits are worth exploring, especially since the cost of keeping the status quo in place is to place effective education out of the reach of most of the worlds population.
And yet some of the best things in life are free.
Not quite.
At the risk of sounding incredibly troll-ish, the best things in life are illegal.
But many other costs of education, grading, feedback, etc., are proportional to the number of students. The amount of personal time you get from instructors for $100 is at most a few hours. For some students, that's enough. For most, it isn't.
The opposite of "a social network makes finding a job easier" is not "no social network makes finding a job impossible".
Besides, immigrants tend to have very good social networks, composed of other immigrants from the same country of origin.
The reason Americans get less out of university and get into greater debt isn't a problem with universities. Americans complete university at twice the rate (30%) of Germany or France (15%). You can't expect 30% of your population to go to college and do as well as when only the top 15% of your students go to college. The high demand for college education has caused prices to skyrocket, fueled by the fact that due to cheap student loans, students can actually pay. And a huge number of those degrees are in fields that are basically useless from the point of view of getting a job, including visual arts, psychology, and journalism.
Yes, major reform is needed, and it's fairly simple: get rid of student loans for anything other than STEM fields. As a tax payer, I see no reason why I should subsidize people getting a college degree that amounts to little more than a personal hobby.
In a roundabout way, online classes do fix this problem, because while the class may only cost $100, you still need to live. And online universities aren't going to waste a lot of money on football fields and other facilities that universities needs to get their non-academically inclined students to part with more money.
But many other costs of education, grading, feedback, etc., are proportional to the number of students. The amount of personal time you get from instructors for $100 is at most a few hours. For some students, that's enough. For most, it isn't.
With checks and balances, marking the lower level students could be an assignment for the higher grade ones. Some exercises can be computer marked. Of course there are still going to have to be some professional markers, and providing exam conditions isn't free (for most certification exams its about £50 or $75 to the centre).
Speak with experience here.
I do employ people, and I've been doing so for the past 2 decades.
I find that the quality of newer crops of university graduates are much lower than their counterparts that I had hired 10 or 20 years ago.
With the panflation syndrome ( http://www.economist.com/node/21552214 ) already permeated many of the traditional brick and mortar universities, it wouldn't do me too much harm for me to try hiring some who graduated from the $100-per-degree online universities
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
The amount of personal time you get from instructors for $100 is at most a few hours. For some students, that's enough. For most, it isn't.
I'd strongly disagree with "most". 200 students and one hour of office hours and the guy doesn't speak english anyway is not an unusual situation.
There is nothing wrong with people who have learning problems going to special schools that cost $50K/yr and everyone else goes to the $50/yr school.
The purpose of higher ed is not to hold your hand like a kindergartner anyway, its to teach you how to teach yourself. Look at the environment you'll be in when you graduate.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
The issue isn't necessarily developing content. The issue is creating a degree out of it. Anyone can sit down and pound out some content.
How do you turn that into a degree? Well in order for it to be accredited I believe you'd have to create some standards. Tests, assessments, things like that.
Someone is going to have to manage those, mark them, etc.
No on is really going to respect a multiple choice masters degree, and no one is going to mark papers for a penny each. There are also issues in dealing with the practical side of some kind of learning. While literature can be discussed online as well as it could in a classroom, it might be harder to run an online chemistry course where students never do any actual chemistry.
$100 is probably not enough to pay the people who will mark the exams. Most universities allow external students: those who are not taught by the university but simply show up and take the exams, and you'd be hard pressed to find any that do so for $100. A masters course typically involves a dissertation that is at least 100 pages. Just reading it is going to take several hours. If you can do it in five hours (which is pretty good going for a thorough read of a masters dissertation) then you're talking $20/hour, and not leaving any more time for marking the other exams.
I would not trust a $100 masters degree (unless that's just $100 paid by the student, with the rest funded from elsewhere) for the simple reason that it is not feasible to do a proper assessment of the student for that little money. $1000 might be quite feasible though...
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The purpose of higher ed is not to hold your hand like a kindergartner anyway, its to teach you how to teach yourself. Look at the environment you'll be in when you graduate.
And yet, in my brick and mortar school, when we encourage individual learning, peer mentoring and peer leadership, we are accused by students/parents of not doing our jobs. People want to be handheld today. They've been taught that someone will be there to help them, and they've been taught it for the last 50 years. Oh, and in today's society, when you don't get your way, do you know what the first course of action is? Threaten a lawsuit - granted, I only have my own experience and it is anecdotal evidence at best.
Sometimes I envy the guy that doesn't speak English. At least he can tune out the Bullshit.
I don't think that a common cultural background is needed to live well together. I find it way more interesting to live with people who share little cultural background. Perhaps it's just me.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
If you're a native in your country and not being hired with the understanding that you're going to be abused, a $100 Master's degree is literally worse than worthless. The folks with dime store diploma's that applied at my old place were specifically weeded out because the assumption was if you're dumb enough to pay for one of those you're not worth hiring.
If you're dumb enough to equate a qualification from people such as Thrun and Peter frigging Norvig with the degree mills, you're the one who's not worth hiring.
Although having said that, they seem to be having a hard time attracting any other real academics and instead fall back on a mix of .com types, and in the long term, reputation's going to be the make-or-break for Udacity....
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
It usually is, unfortunately -- in the U.S., that is. It's a big social club, like a mutual adoration society, closed to outsiders. That's not very healthy for the long term progress, you know.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
You're assuming that it will require a human to grade the exams. And extended coursework is becoming more come in lieu of a thesis. The time required for a human to teach a course isn't what it used to be. And why should it?
The bigger issue is the honor code. But Udacity just entered into an agreement with Pearson testing centers to allow students to test in a recognized environment.
I admit, I'm a bit biased after taking the Robotic Car class, but I think it's time for a change in our educational structure. Costs are increasing much faster than inflation, yet technology is clearly there to make it cheaper.
It's really interesting to see this discussion on a site that often promotes the merits of free software.