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Microsoft Relents On Metro-Only Visual Studio Express

Posted by Soulskill on from the somebody-shouted-loudly-enough dept.

snydeq writes "After hearing objections from developers, Microsoft will offer a version of its Visual Studio Express 2012 package for desktop application development after all. The company had previously announced that Express 2012 editions, which are free, platform-specific versions of the Visual Studio 2012 IDE, would be limited to Windows 8 Metro-style development as well as development for the Windows Azure cloud platform, Windows Phone, and Web applications. 'We heard from our community that developers want to have for Windows desktop development the same great experience and access to the latest Visual Studio 2012 features at the Express level. ... And it will enable developers working on open source applications to target existing and previous versions of Windows.'"

34 of 228 comments (clear)

  1. Well, it's a beginning by JDG1980 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Good start.

    Now, if only they'd relent on the Start button, Start menu, and letting users opt-out of Metro altogether...

    1. Re:Well, it's a beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem isn't the lack of start menu so much as the fact that to access the "super bar" you have to go to the full-screen Metro interface. It is a jarring experience, and funny on a multi-screen setup where one of your monitors just becomes this giant, monotone search field. It is not at all conducive to the rest of the experience *on a desktop* (I'm sure if fits fine on a tablet).

    2. Re:Well, it's a beginning by Missing.Matter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't mind the transition between desktop and start screen at all, but if you do, you can just put a shortcut do desktop in your startup folder and it'll take you right there on startup.

    3. Re:Well, it's a beginning by cpu6502 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >>>people largely launch apps from the super bar

      The what? (looks round). I don't see that on my Win7 desktop.
      And yeah I still use the start button since it gives me a nice list of all my programs in one quick spot.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    4. Re:Well, it's a beginning by epyT-R · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Those of us that have more than three or four pieces of software installed do. Scrolling a huge fullscreen pile of tiles is a lot more time consuming than scrolling through a well organized start menu or using a quicklaunch link. The fact I can start a new application from it without losing sight of my desktop is something I"ve come to expect from computer use over the last FIFTEEN years..

    5. Re:Well, it's a beginning by epyT-R · · Score: 2

      This will bring up the desktop, but it won't solve the full screen problem when starting new applications. anyway, why should users have to kludge the kludge to unkludge the kludge on a $200 piece of software?

    6. Re:Well, it's a beginning by unixisc · · Score: 2

      I typically use the Start menu - not for the apps, which may be part of the quick launch bar, but for going directly to websites using favorites. I also enable the menu mode of My Documents and typically use that instead of opening Explorer. Same w/ the control panel, and sometimes, I use My Recent Documents as well. So the Start button is invaluable to me, and if it's not gonna be there in Windows 8, I'll either stay w/ XP, which is what I'm using now even though I have a copy of Vista, or else, I'd try getting my hands on PC-BSD.

    7. Re:Well, it's a beginning by VGPowerlord · · Score: 3, Informative

      So those people who intentionally put off migrating forward for over a decade are going to be surprised that things aren't exactly the same as they were before. Cry me a river.

      Half a decade. Windows Vista came out in January 2007.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    8. Re:Well, it's a beginning by Dishevel · · Score: 2

      So those people who intentionally put off migrating forward for over a decade are going to be surprised that things aren't exactly the same as they were before. Cry me a river.

      Half a decade. Windows Vista came out in January 2007.

      And it was not for a few years after that that Vista became somewhat useable.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    9. Re:Well, it's a beginning by Missing.Matter · · Score: 2

      Super bar is what many call the task bar in Windows 7, since it is both a task bar and a launcher combined in one.

      And no, my desktop is not covered icons. I use about 10 programs regularly (Photoshop, Indesign, Visual Studio, Matlab, TexWorks, Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Opera) and they are all pinned to my task bar. Anything else I want to use I just launch from the search box.

    10. Re:Well, it's a beginning by arkhan_jg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes. relenting to a bunch of bastards who don't want to buy the full version sure is a start.

      Because open-source developers who don't make any money from their software were going be to effectively blocked from supporting their existing apps on windows 8?
      With windows 7, you got the compiler in the SDK, so you could at least compile your own apps written in another IDE. Windows 8 doesn't have that any more, the only compiler and standard header libraries are part of Visual Studio 2012; so unless the non-profit making open source dev wanted to cough up $500 for the full version of VS2012 pro out of their own pocket (that included a bunch of crap they didn't need), they couldn't support windows 8.

      Never mind that VS 2012 has a much faster compiler than the older version, microsoft tend to tweak APIs and such - and when they release a new OS, only the new VS gets it integrated.

      And how were new students going to learn to code for windows? Most people start with CLI coding, not fully blown graphical UI versions, ala metro.

      Plenty of people need Visual Studio Express to write code for windows, because it is so tightly integrated and designed to go together. Nerfing the express version wouldn't force developers to write more metro apps - it would just kill off existing apps for Windows 7 from 8, cut down on new people learning to write software for windows, and kill off future open source apps on windows.

      I'm amazed they thought that making the free compiler for windows metro-only was a good idea in the first place. At least they've overturned what would have been a big self-inflicted foot wound.

      --
      Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
    11. Re:Well, it's a beginning by X0563511 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And it was not for a few years after that that Vista became somewhat useable.

      AKA the release of Windows 7.

      Skip 8, you know how it is with Microsoft. Whatever comes out after 8 will rock, but 8 itself will be a pile of shit.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    12. Re:Well, it's a beginning by turkeyfeathers · · Score: 3, Informative

      Hierarchical menus.

    13. Re:Well, it's a beginning by Missing.Matter · · Score: 2
      Your complaints about the super bar can all be alleviated by choosing "small icons" and "never combine" options. It acts just like Windows XP except the windows are grouped and you can rearrange them.

      I especially want to be able to have a more or less complete list of installed programs in a hierarchical layout that's accessible from one place .

      This would be the apps list. It's quickly accessible, contains all apps in alphabetical order, and shows all the icons at once instead of being buried in folders. I like it much better for accessing all my programs than the "All Programs" list in the start menu.

    14. Re:Well, it's a beginning by dslbrian · · Score: 3, Informative

      I prefer the apps list in Windows 8 as a list of all programs in one quick spot. It's alphebetized and doesn't include nonsense like uninstall wizards and docs like the start menu does. And it shows all the icons at once so I don't have to read a series of folder names like with the Start Menu.

      Well you must not use very many programs. Their ridiculous flat organization method quickly falls apart and looks like crap. Just take a look here (images 3-5 on that page pretty clearly demonstrate). So yeah, you enjoy that needle in a haystack...

    15. Re:Well, it's a beginning by epyT-R · · Score: 3, Informative

      I mean the 'start menu' taking the full screen whenever it's accessed, instead of a small rectangle in the corner of the still-visible desktop.

    16. Re:Well, it's a beginning by drkstr1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Everyone I know disables that shit as soon as they figure out how (or that they even can). "Everyone I know" includes far more than just smart people.

      Really? I'm surprised to hear that. The task bar is actually my favorite UI feature on Windows 7. I have about 3/4 of my task bar pinned with the applications I use on a mostly daily basis. I pin the lesser used apps to my start menu. I am usually running quite a few apps at once, so it's nice knowing exactly where it will be on my taskbar when I need to switch to it. I can get the mouse in the general area of the icon before I even need to look at them. Before the Win7 task bar, I was an ALT+TAB guy. This way is much faster for me.

      Just my opinion anyways.

      --
      Fanboy Status: Apache Flex, C#, Eclipse, KDE, Pirate Party, Ron Paul, Slackware, Windows 7
    17. Re:Well, it's a beginning by VMSBIGOT · · Score: 2

      Add in Windows Key + Number to start apps. IE, My second icon is for Windows Explorer, I can hit "Windows + 2" and it switches to it. Holding WinKey and hitting '2' repeatedly will cycle through all that applications windows.

    18. Re:Well, it's a beginning by bertok · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Toms Hardware knows exactly what they are doing, because their experience precisely matches mine, and I've been a Windows developer since 3.1, so I think by now I've learned how to use the operating system.

      There is no way to make Metro usable for a power user. If you find it better than the current UI in Windows 7, then I'm sorry, but you're just not a power user. Yes, you heard me right, you're just not. You're not like me, the kind of person that runs five virtual machines at once, with ten RDP sessions open, Visual Studio in the background, and fifty tabs across three browsers. You're just a consumer -- a casual user.

      The first thing I did was install the Remote Server Admin Tools for Windows Server 8, so I can see what new admin features there. The problem is that the icons are mostly the same, and the dumbass fixed-size tile design doesn't provide enough room for the text. The result looks like an endless array of tiles that say things like:

      [ICON] Active Director...
      [ICON] Active Director...
      [ICON] Active Director...
      [ICON] Active Director...

      Guess which one was actually "Active Directory Sites and Services"! It's idiotic beyond belief, isn't it?

      And don't you dare tell me about the "search" keyboard shortcuts, which can only possibly help users that have memorized the precise spelling of the distinguishing part of the text of each and every shortcut in the Start Menu. Tell me, right now, quickly and from memory, what keyword would you use to find the shortcut in the start menu for the Active Directory integrated Certificate Authority configuration admin console . Hint: It doesn't contain "Active", "Directory", "Certificate", or "Authority". Looking for "Acrobat Reader" by typing "Acro" in the search box? Bzzt! It's now called "Adobe Reader". Try again.

      You paid Microsoft shills can go fuck off. I like Windows, I do. I run it on my laptop, I install it on servers for a living, and I write software for it. Despite this, it's obvious to me that Metro is an objectively, demonstrably bad user interface for a PC. If you disagree, post with a user account that's been around for more than a week, and try to use, you know... facts, like the screenshots in the Toms Hardware article.

    19. Re:Well, it's a beginning by hairyfeet · · Score: 5, Interesting

      How about answering a few questions for me? What advantages does metro give you that weren't already present in desktop gadgets? How has metro improved your workflow over Win 7? How is the current design better on a NON touch screen desktop or laptop (which is over 90% of the PCs sold ATM) than Win 7? what benefits has Win 8 given you?

      Because frankly i could find nice things about every previous release of the last decade, even Vista. with Vista you had a better memory model, better support for 64 bit, and with UAC, ASLR, and DEP you had MSFT finally allowing users to run as users and not admins and still have programs function, even if UAC bugged the crap out of people too often.

      But after using Win 8 at the shop for a month the ONLY nice thing I can come up to say about it is "It'll probably be decent on a cell phone or a tablet" which would be fine IF you were talking about a company that had significant share in cell phones and tablets but we're not, we're talking about a company that threw hundreds of million after WinPhone and it went absolutely nowhere fast.

      So if you think win 8 is good? Fine happy for you but at least EXPLAIN why you think its good, what benefits you have seen, and please don't do like Sinofsky and pretend that the world is gonna embrace PCs as "supergigantic smartphones" and rush out to buy touchscreens! Did anybody see his last Win 8 talk? i think he said touchscreen something like 30 damned times! less than 4% of the X86 market is touchscreens but watching him talk he has honestly deluded himself into thinking folks are gonna give up those 27in monitors for some $300 17in touchscreen! I got news for ya, Sinofsky? your shit ain't THAT good, in fact my customers all think it blows.

      so please don't give us esoteric workaround crap just to get back what we've lost, sell it to us, tell us what we have gained. Because other than feeling like my desktop monitor ought to have a slider keyboard like a giant cell phone i'm just not seeing any benefits where i'm sitting. hell if you are the type addicted to twitter and FB and need 24/7/365 updates there are already gadgets that do that, so even that isn't a gain.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    20. Re:Well, it's a beginning by X0563511 · · Score: 2

      Yea, if you right click it and go to the options, you can disable the grouping. Once that's done, and the pinned applications unpinned, it behaves very much like the windows XP start bar, except you can search from it.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    21. Re:Well, it's a beginning by Missing.Matter · · Score: 2

      There is no good reason to think they're a representative sample.

      There's no good reason to think Microsoft doesn't employ a competent statistician who makes sure the sample is representative.

      badmouthing from the tech community ensured that Vista was pretty much DOA

      The tech community has been badmouthing Microsoft products constantly since the 90s, and that hasn't made any dent in their marketshare. Vista was DOA because it was a bad product. You're really overstating your influence.

    22. Re:Well, it's a beginning by EdIII · · Score: 2

      Because other than feeling like my desktop monitor ought to have a slider keyboard like a giant cell phone

      I don't want my monitors to have any touch capability. Why? It's freaking useless. I have a bunch of large monitors on swing arms and stands in front of me, but they are not within arms reach. Much less set up to ergonomically use a touchscreen.

      What would be really cool and useful is a wide (15"-30") touchscreen interface that either replaced my keyboard and mouse, or was at an angle right behind them.

      You could use that with an operating system for so many useful things. Why have a start menu, or even a task bar on the main screens at all? That stuff just begs for a touch interface, but not when I can't reach it on a desktop.

      This whole upset over Win8 and the massive search field is because MS is trying to shoe horn smartphone interfaces into a platform wholly unsuited for it just due to ergonomic reasons alone. For a company that does so much research into ergonomics, that is rather pathetic.

      What do you need touch for , and provide it for that . That's what MS needs to figure out.

  2. I love the marketing speak by MobyDisk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is a great marketing tactic here:

    And it will enable developers working on open source applications to target existing and previous versions of Windows.

    Translation: It will not forbid developers working on open source applications to target existing and previous versions of Windows.

    developers want to have for Windows desktop development the same great experience and access to the latest Visual Studio 2012 features

    Translation: developers want to have what they already had.

    1. Re:I love the marketing speak by gstrickler · · Score: 5, Insightful

      developers want to have for Windows desktop development the same great experience and access to the latest Visual Studio 2012 features

      I translate it a bit differently: Despite our efforts to force Metro down everyone's throats, developers have told in no uncertain terms that they would prefer to continue developing for a traditional windows interface.

      --
      make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
  3. Re:It's a free tool! by epyT-R · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This reads like astroturf. People are actually complaining because the free new version is less capable than the old free versions to date.

  4. Free publicity! by bregmata · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Microsoft could never buy the kind of publicity in the developer community that this kind of announce/recind behaviour will get them for free.

    Man, they're good.

  5. Well what do you know by ArhcAngel · · Score: 4, Informative

    I was all ready to post a snarky comment about not needing Visual Studio because I could do everything I needed in Delphi. So I quickly look it up since I haven't touched it in over 10 years and much to my surprise Delphi is not only still around but looks like it's thriving. Who knew?

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
  6. Re:Express = Free? by BitwizeGHC · · Score: 2

    It dates from the late nineties when software vendors would offer reduced-feature versions of their software subtitled "Lite" or "Light" for zero or a considerably discounted cost compared to the full version. One of the most famous of which was Eudora Light, which was free; and contrasted with Eudora Pro, which cost about $40.

    When it came time to offer free pack-in versions of popular Microsoft programs with Windows 98, Microsoft marketing decided that they didn't like the connotations of being feature-starved or nerfed that the "Light" designation bestowed, even though they were doing the same thing as everyone else and shipping feature-starved, nerfed versions of programs they normally charged money for. So they came up with this word "Express" which means the same thing, but has connotations of being fast and easy. The first programs to use this designation were, as I recall, FrontPage Express and Outlook Express.

    --
    N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
  7. Re:A Microsoft story? by Reapman · · Score: 2

    You've never seen Google bashing on here. Seriously? What do we also love Sony?

  8. Re:It's a free tool! by pympdaddyc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Okay, wanking about whether or not people have entitlement issues is missing the core of the situation.

    There are developers that will be new to .NET development, and there will be developers that have already been developing desktop applications against the Express versions of the software. If we have learned nothing from the gaming console or phone platform wars, it is that you want to encourage application development. Any barrier to entry or project sustainability, even one that is merely perceived, will cause some number of people to pick a different platform to learn and grow on, and the .NET ecosystem will shrink. There are plenty of other languages and IDEs to turn to that are free, easy, and reliably maintained without having to worry about version-ed crippleware.

    I am a full-time .NET developer. I'm an MSDN subscriber and so am utterly independent of the Express versions. Yet I feel very strongly that incidents like this hurt me and hurt .NET development on the whole. As a developer community we're already hamstrung by the lackluster (or totally absent, depending on how you look at it) cross-platform availability for the .NET framework and culture that leans more corporate/enterprise. The least we can do is provide a basic, sustainable development tools for learners and free/open projects.

  9. Re:Express = Free? by pympdaddyc · · Score: 2

    I am not sure what you mean. The .NET Express IDEs are truly, 100% free. Software you write with it is yours and can be sold or made open source.

  10. Good, now just by kimvette · · Score: 2

    Good, now just fix the menus then you're off to a good start.

    Next, make choosing Metro or Explorer (with Aero glass or classic) for the UI an option then Windows 8 should be even better than Windows 7. Otherwise, it will be at least as despised as the epic fail known as Vista.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  11. Re:It's a free tool! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

    If we have learned nothing from the gaming console or phone platform wars, it is that you want to encourage application development.

    The irony is that Microsoft was one of the first to learn that lesson, ages ago - remember the whole "developers, developers, developers!" thing?

    IMO, it's the setback from those past principles - of making development for Windows as easy and convenient as possible - that caused such a backlash here.

    I am a full-time .NET developer. I'm an MSDN subscriber and so am utterly independent of the Express versions. Yet I feel very strongly that incidents like this hurt me and hurt .NET development on the whole. As a developer community we're already hamstrung by the lackluster (or totally absent, depending on how you look at it) cross-platform availability for the .NET framework and culture that leans more corporate/enterprise. The least we can do is provide a basic, sustainable development tools for learners and free/open projects.

    As a VS developer, I can't help but agree with this.

    As a side note, though. One good thing about this whole Metro deal is that its developer story includes a strong angle of catering to new learners, hobby projects, and small startups and such (that's why there is a Metro edition of Express to begin with, for example).