Microsoft Relents On Metro-Only Visual Studio Express

snydeq writes "After hearing objections from developers, Microsoft will offer a version of its Visual Studio Express 2012 package for desktop application development after all. The company had previously announced that Express 2012 editions, which are free, platform-specific versions of the Visual Studio 2012 IDE, would be limited to Windows 8 Metro-style development as well as development for the Windows Azure cloud platform, Windows Phone, and Web applications. 'We heard from our community that developers want to have for Windows desktop development the same great experience and access to the latest Visual Studio 2012 features at the Express level. ... And it will enable developers working on open source applications to target existing and previous versions of Windows.'"

Comments

Well, it's a beginning

[JDG1980]

Good start.

Now, if only they'd relent on the Start button, Start menu, and letting users opt-out of Metro altogether...

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Missing.Matter]

Does anyone actually use the start menu anymore? I know Microsoft's data shows they don't, and people largely launch apps from the super bar. I know my own usage is the same. The only time I ever go in the start menu is to do a search. Can't remember the last time I went to All Programs. For me, the start screen is no big deal, and I actually welcome it since it's more useful than the start menu ever was for me.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem isn't the lack of start menu so much as the fact that to access the "super bar" you have to go to the full-screen Metro interface. It is a jarring experience, and funny on a multi-screen setup where one of your monitors just becomes this giant, monotone search field. It is not at all conducive to the rest of the experience *on a desktop* (I'm sure if fits fine on a tablet).

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[epyT-R]

Yes. relenting to a bunch of bastards who don't want to buy the full version sure is a start.

Most teenagers don't have $500 to blow on visual studio.

Now if we can just get rid of you clowns who hate change.

Fallacy.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone who's still on XP uses it, and with XP no longer sold on new systems, they'd be jumping straight to 8 with an upgrade.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Missing.Matter]

I don't mind the transition between desktop and start screen at all, but if you do, you can just put a shortcut do desktop in your startup folder and it'll take you right there on startup.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[cpu6502]

>>>people largely launch apps from the super bar

The what? (looks round). I don't see that on my Win7 desktop.
And yeah I still use the start button since it gives me a nice list of all my programs in one quick spot.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[epyT-R]

Those of us that have more than three or four pieces of software installed do. Scrolling a huge fullscreen pile of tiles is a lot more time consuming than scrolling through a well organized start menu or using a quicklaunch link. The fact I can start a new application from it without losing sight of my desktop is something I"ve come to expect from computer use over the last FIFTEEN years..

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[GuldKalle]

Sorry, but not enough people joined the appropriate Facebook group. I think it's because people didn't invite enough of their friends.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[KlomDark]

What, are you one of those people who has their desktop covered with shortcut icons?

I use the start button constantly. They finally got it perfect in Windows 7. Best thing on there.

WTF is super bar? (I thought Wendy's got rid of that right after Dave died?)

Do you mean the Quick Launch Bar? (The icons next to the start button) If you don't, then please explain...

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[epyT-R]

This will bring up the desktop, but it won't solve the full screen problem when starting new applications. anyway, why should users have to kludge the kludge to unkludge the kludge on a $200 piece of software?

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[unixisc]

I typically use the Start menu - not for the apps, which may be part of the quick launch bar, but for going directly to websites using favorites. I also enable the menu mode of My Documents and typically use that instead of opening Explorer. Same w/ the control panel, and sometimes, I use My Recent Documents as well. So the Start button is invaluable to me, and if it's not gonna be there in Windows 8, I'll either stay w/ XP, which is what I'm using now even though I have a copy of Vista, or else, I'd try getting my hands on PC-BSD.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[VGPowerlord]

So those people who intentionally put off migrating forward for over a decade are going to be surprised that things aren't exactly the same as they were before. Cry me a river.

Half a decade. Windows Vista came out in January 2007.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[theygoto11]

I'm betting a "go back switch" will be available in Win 8 SP1

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[epyT-R]

newer is not always better. in fact, financial desperation in these times is driving needless change in products in areas that don't need change, often to their detriment.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[zidium]

What's the bloody alternative? The Desktop???

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Dishevel]

So those people who intentionally put off migrating forward for over a decade are going to be surprised that things aren't exactly the same as they were before. Cry me a river.

Half a decade. Windows Vista came out in January 2007.

And it was not for a few years after that that Vista became somewhat useable.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[greenreaper]

He's talking about the taskbar, which also functions as a means to start applications on Windows 7.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Missing.Matter]

Super bar is what many call the task bar in Windows 7, since it is both a task bar and a launcher combined in one.

And no, my desktop is not covered icons. I use about 10 programs regularly (Photoshop, Indesign, Visual Studio, Matlab, TexWorks, Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Opera) and they are all pinned to my task bar. Anything else I want to use I just launch from the search box.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[man_of_mr_e]

http://www.neowin.net/news/main/09/01/15/windows-7-superbar-overview

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[arkhan_jg]

Yes. relenting to a bunch of bastards who don't want to buy the full version sure is a start.

Because open-source developers who don't make any money from their software were going be to effectively blocked from supporting their existing apps on windows 8?
With windows 7, you got the compiler in the SDK, so you could at least compile your own apps written in another IDE. Windows 8 doesn't have that any more, the only compiler and standard header libraries are part of Visual Studio 2012; so unless the non-profit making open source dev wanted to cough up $500 for the full version of VS2012 pro out of their own pocket (that included a bunch of crap they didn't need), they couldn't support windows 8.

Never mind that VS 2012 has a much faster compiler than the older version, microsoft tend to tweak APIs and such - and when they release a new OS, only the new VS gets it integrated.

And how were new students going to learn to code for windows? Most people start with CLI coding, not fully blown graphical UI versions, ala metro.

Plenty of people need Visual Studio Express to write code for windows, because it is so tightly integrated and designed to go together. Nerfing the express version wouldn't force developers to write more metro apps - it would just kill off existing apps for Windows 7 from 8, cut down on new people learning to write software for windows, and kill off future open source apps on windows.

I'm amazed they thought that making the free compiler for windows metro-only was a good idea in the first place. At least they've overturned what would have been a big self-inflicted foot wound.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Missing.Matter]

I like how you characterize the start menu as "well organized" but the start screen as "a pile" (subtext "unorganized"). The start screen can be just as organized as the start menu, and given that the start screen has one more dimension than the start menu, I have more options for organization. My start screen on my Windows 8 PC is organized to my liking and doesn't seem like a "pile" to me at all.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't hate change, but I do hate change that brings no benefits and serves only to make my computing experience more awkward. Trying to pretend my desktop is a tablet (making me drag the login screen out of the way? please) counts as the latter kind of change.

Put it on tablets by all means... find a better solution for your power users.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Missing.Matter]

it gives me a nice list of all my programs in one quick spot.

I prefer the apps list in Windows 8 as a list of all programs in one quick spot. It's alphebetized and doesn't include nonsense like uninstall wizards and docs like the start menu does. And it shows all the icons at once so I don't have to read a series of folder names like with the Start Menu.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[X0563511]

And it was not for a few years after that that Vista became somewhat useable.

AKA the release of Windows 7.

Skip 8, you know how it is with Microsoft. Whatever comes out after 8 will rock, but 8 itself will be a pile of shit.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[GIL_Dude]

It is interesting how, with complex software, everyone ends up with a different usage pattern. I use the start menu all the time, but as a search and execute. Press the Windows Key (or if your keyboard is one of those "defective" ones that doesn't have a Windows Key press ctrl-esc), and just type. To start Word, Windows Key, w, o, r, d, enter. We've tried to train literally thousands of our users to do it that way. But we do still see some folks slowly clicking their way through the start menu the old slow way.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[turkeyfeathers]

Hierarchical menus.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[cpu6502]

>>>What, are you one of those people who has their desktop covered with shortcut icons?

First thing I do is erase all that junk from my desktop and tab bar. The cleaner the appearance, the better it looks. (Plus I don't have to push my windows around trying to find hidden icons underneath them.)

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[cpu6502]

>>>To start Word, Windows Key, w, o, r, d, enter.

That requires effort (lifting my hand and typing). Easier to move my mouse a millimeter and click Start, MS Word, Open Doc, click desired file, and start reading. ;-)

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[jwegman]

Yes, exactly this!!

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Dozens of times per day, yes. The super bar is shiny and pretty but it's cumbersome to use. The hands down most effective layout they've come out with yet is the quick-launch bar, the taskbar (without fucking window grouping), and the start menu.

I don't want the click area to launch a program to be the same as the one to switch to open instances of that window. It's a huge pain in the ass and extra clicks if I want another window of the same type open, which is extremely common for me.

I don't want multiples of the same window type to be grouped. I want them showing in the taskbar where I can see by the title which file is being edited in it and switch to it with a single click instead of having to guess at thumbnails or go through extra clicks for a list.

I especially want to be able to have a more or less complete list of installed programs in a hierarchical layout that's accessible from one place . I don't want to have to keep their names all in memory. I don't want to have a bazillion launchers cluttering the bottom of my screen.

I don't want shiny and pretty. I don't want minimalist to the point of uselessness. Pretty needs to stop the very instant before it starts impacting my ability to get shit done quickly. If it slows me down it can fuck right off.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Missing.Matter]

To start Word, Windows Key, w, o, r, d, enter.

Doing this will still open word in Windows 8

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[X0563511]

Unpin everything form the "superbar" - hey look, it's a classic taskbar.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Missing.Matter]

Your complaints about the super bar can all be alleviated by choosing "small icons" and "never combine" options. It acts just like Windows XP except the windows are grouped and you can rearrange them.

I especially want to be able to have a more or less complete list of installed programs in a hierarchical layout that's accessible from one place .

This would be the apps list. It's quickly accessible, contains all apps in alphabetical order, and shows all the icons at once instead of being buried in folders. I like it much better for accessing all my programs than the "All Programs" list in the start menu.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, I work at a decent sized ($1B market cap) multi-site (and multi-national) med device company as an Engineer and my workstation still runs XP, as do a lot of computers here. My laptop is Windows 7, but I still use the start menu. I could get along without it, but I do usually go for the start menu out of habit. It's that familiarity with the interface that people are lamenting the loss of. Change for the sake of change is not the same as value added. The time their metrics are saying will be saved by the new workflow will easily be matched by the time wasted as I instinctively go for what has consistently been there for 2 decades, then try to remember what they replaced it with.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[SexyHamster]

Does anyone actually use the start menu anymore? I know Microsoft's data shows they don't, and people largely launch apps from the super bar. I know my own usage is the same. The only time I ever go in the start menu is to do a search.

As a computer tech who occasionally has to remote into someone's desktop or an unfamiliar server to change settings or fix things I enjoy the consistency that the start menu provides.

No matter what kind of icon organizational disaster the user has turned their desktop into I can find the computer and networking options under the start menu. The same applies to the task bar. Sure you can pin icons to it, but it's unlikely the user will have anything pinned to it that I'll find useful in a remote support session.

I've mostly given up on organizing the start menu since most applications want to put their icons in the root of the tree, but at least you can sort it alphabetically.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[ILongForDarkness]

I have a hundred or more installed programs. Yes I use the start menu. I don't actually use the mouse to get there though. Windows key and start typing. Usually in 5 or less characters the list is down to 2-3 and I arrow over to the right one. I'm not sure how you do it but for changing settings it is great because you don't have to navigate around the control panel. Just type a few characters (eg. win -> def for defrag) and you are right to what you want.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[ILongForDarkness]

The super bar is what they are calling the "system tray" no? It is there in the "desktop app" it is just the start button that sends you back to metro. I think metro should have been an optional skin or even better a "space" like it is in Mac for an app store. Multiple desktop support should come with any modern OS IMHO.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[dslbrian]

I prefer the apps list in Windows 8 as a list of all programs in one quick spot. It's alphebetized and doesn't include nonsense like uninstall wizards and docs like the start menu does. And it shows all the icons at once so I don't have to read a series of folder names like with the Start Menu.

Well you must not use very many programs. Their ridiculous flat organization method quickly falls apart and looks like crap. Just take a look here (images 3-5 on that page pretty clearly demonstrate). So yeah, you enjoy that needle in a haystack...

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Missing.Matter]

This is what Microsoft's data shows the majority of people using their start menu for. The start menu is no longer an application launcher, it's an application searcher, and the only reason it's in the start menu is for legacy reasons. Thus in Windows 8 there's a completely revamped search, which is much more useful in my opinion. You can still press the windows key and type a few characters, and there are all the results.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Ayanami_R]

Like the old start menu you can group things together for organization. That + semantic zoom, makes finding things easy. You could be even lazier, just start typing your search in the start menu. "I need to open premiere to do some editing," Start > type "pre..." wait, there it is!

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[epyT-R]

I mean the 'start menu' taking the full screen whenever it's accessed, instead of a small rectangle in the corner of the still-visible desktop.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[The Mighty Buzzard]

I'm aware of all of the above. And yet, the default is to be less useful than prior versions of Windows. It amazes me that Microsoft's answer to making an OS more usable is to remove ways to use it. I expect within three versions both Windows and Gnome will be nothing but a Facebook button in the middle of the screen.

As for buried in folders? I prefer the term organized. You know, sorted into sub-folders according to function as opposed to dumped in a huge single directory. I don't have a problem installing a 3rd party program to extend the functionality of an OS but I do have a huge problem with the OS manufacturer removing functionality.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[shutdown -p now]

Yes. relenting to a bunch of bastards who don't want to buy the full version sure is a start.

Well, competitors offer their products for free - see Xcode and Qt Creator. It makes sense that VS has to have a reasonably full-featured free version to compete. That's why Express was created in the first place.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[bratwiz]

Personally, I use the Start button and the Start Menu all the time. And I kind of like having it.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[bratwiz]

Yes, that exactly.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[geekoid]

so people you know prefer to waste time making extra clicks? Interesting definition of 'smart'.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[geekoid]

the mouse is slower, however.

Also, you can pin a program to the taskbar and hit WinKey + Number.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[drkstr1]

Everyone I know disables that shit as soon as they figure out how (or that they even can). "Everyone I know" includes far more than just smart people.

Really? I'm surprised to hear that. The task bar is actually my favorite UI feature on Windows 7. I have about 3/4 of my task bar pinned with the applications I use on a mostly daily basis. I pin the lesser used apps to my start menu. I am usually running quite a few apps at once, so it's nice knowing exactly where it will be on my taskbar when I need to switch to it. I can get the mouse in the general area of the icon before I even need to look at them. Before the Win7 task bar, I was an ALT+TAB guy. This way is much faster for me.

Just my opinion anyways.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[SuperSlacker64]

Thank you for teaching me this magic.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[VMSBIGOT]

Add in Windows Key + Number to start apps. IE, My second icon is for Windows Explorer, I can hit "Windows + 2" and it switches to it. Holding WinKey and hitting '2' repeatedly will cycle through all that applications windows.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[DeathFromSomewhere]

So hothardware goes out of their way to make their system look as shitty as possible. Every one of those screens can be cleaned up and customized. They also fail to note that the start menu search still works the same way it did before.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[ILongForDarkness]

I didn't have a good experience with the beta so only played around with it for about 20 min on a VM. Didn't notice the search. Did notice the pain of navigating metro with a mouse. Might be the beta but it was click and drag, click and drag. Click. Clicky clicky click. It seemed all the examples were content consumption based apps very little for the "get to the keyboard and start typing" sorts. Of course their was the VS demo but that was just type to make yet another app that requires you to go back to metro (beta didn't have desktop projects available if I recall (maybe it was dev preview not sure MS has way too many "here try this" releases).

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[bertok]

Toms Hardware knows exactly what they are doing, because their experience precisely matches mine, and I've been a Windows developer since 3.1, so I think by now I've learned how to use the operating system.

There is no way to make Metro usable for a power user. If you find it better than the current UI in Windows 7, then I'm sorry, but you're just not a power user. Yes, you heard me right, you're just not. You're not like me, the kind of person that runs five virtual machines at once, with ten RDP sessions open, Visual Studio in the background, and fifty tabs across three browsers. You're just a consumer -- a casual user.

The first thing I did was install the Remote Server Admin Tools for Windows Server 8, so I can see what new admin features there. The problem is that the icons are mostly the same, and the dumbass fixed-size tile design doesn't provide enough room for the text. The result looks like an endless array of tiles that say things like:

[ICON] Active Director...
[ICON] Active Director...
[ICON] Active Director...
[ICON] Active Director...

Guess which one was actually "Active Directory Sites and Services"! It's idiotic beyond belief, isn't it?

And don't you dare tell me about the "search" keyboard shortcuts, which can only possibly help users that have memorized the precise spelling of the distinguishing part of the text of each and every shortcut in the Start Menu. Tell me, right now, quickly and from memory, what keyword would you use to find the shortcut in the start menu for the Active Directory integrated Certificate Authority configuration admin console . Hint: It doesn't contain "Active", "Directory", "Certificate", or "Authority". Looking for "Acrobat Reader" by typing "Acro" in the search box? Bzzt! It's now called "Adobe Reader". Try again.

You paid Microsoft shills can go fuck off. I like Windows, I do. I run it on my laptop, I install it on servers for a living, and I write software for it. Despite this, it's obvious to me that Metro is an objectively, demonstrably bad user interface for a PC. If you disagree, post with a user account that's been around for more than a week, and try to use, you know... facts, like the screenshots in the Toms Hardware article.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[hairyfeet]

Some do, many just dump all the crap on the desktop. since metro tiles have to be written as metro apps its gonna be shit as folks just want to dump crap on the desktop.

Sometime this weekend i'm gonna install RP on the box at the shop running Win 8 CP but i don't think it will get any better reception, they have ALL hated it, every customer that has tried it.

Frankly this release just stumps me, as i don't really know who the target is. I thought it was the teens and tweeners, the ones that live on cell phones now but they seem to get pisseed off and walk away even faster than the adults. they always say the same thing "I already HAVE a cell phone, and this is stupid, I can't find anything" and walk off.

But as far as me personally using the start menu? maybe once a week. i have my docs, along with my computer and two folders labeled my shortcuts and game shortcuts and other than the program I'm using the most this week that is all i need to get to everything. Thanks to jumplists i don't need to hardly crack open my computer to drill down to where i want to go, but then again my heaviest go to folders are in rocketdock at the bottom of the screen so I have an easier time getting where i need to go quickly. Win 8 just ties a boat anchor to my workflow and while i can use it, it certainly isn't faster or better than the Win 7 UI for me.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[epyT-R]

I don't know why turkeyfeathers was modded down.. he's right. the hierarchy is useful, and it can be easily sorted by alpha if necessary.. the current full screen tiled mess isn't, and having to scroll it horizontally just makes things worse. Starting an application should not be a disruptive 'experience.' It negatively affects workflow by unnecessarily stopping information flow to the user from already open windows.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[bertok]

I'm amazed they thought that making the free compiler for windows metro-only was a good idea in the first place. At least they've overturned what would have been a big self-inflicted foot wound.

Had they gone ahead with the metro-only thing, I would have predicted not just a foot wound, but a slow death from sepsis.

If you block the next generation of starving uni students from developing on your platform, they will never grow up to become the kind of developers that can fork over $500 for a Visual Studio license without having to go without food for a month. No developers means no market for your platform, and that would have been the end of Microsoft. Not immediately, sure but it would be the beginning of the end.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[epyT-R]

The point is, there's no reason to block someone's view of his work area unless it's absolutely necessary. At the very least, it's visually disruptive, and in my case, I can load things without taking my central vision off what's in front of me. I've grown used to this ability, and losing it for the sake of a poorly grafted interface meant for input constrained devices is a net loss.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[epyT-R]

I find clicking twice faster than typing 'word' and hoping the heuristics guess right.. I've found that sometimes it doesn't. It depends on what was installed on the machine. Also, often used applications go in the quicklaunch, and that is faster than the start menu. A stock start menu is clunky, yes, but it works A LOT better than full screens of tiles to scroll through, and if a minute is taken to organize it, there's no contest.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[epyT-R]

I don't consider myself especially dextrous, physically, but I really don't think a start menu is difficult to navigate.. Search, is A LOT slower and more disruptive to work flow when you already know where something is. The metro menu is even slower than both! There's no reason why microsoft can't offer both a traditional windows desktop and this metro thing with a control panel switch.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[hairyfeet]

How about answering a few questions for me? What advantages does metro give you that weren't already present in desktop gadgets? How has metro improved your workflow over Win 7? How is the current design better on a NON touch screen desktop or laptop (which is over 90% of the PCs sold ATM) than Win 7? what benefits has Win 8 given you?

Because frankly i could find nice things about every previous release of the last decade, even Vista. with Vista you had a better memory model, better support for 64 bit, and with UAC, ASLR, and DEP you had MSFT finally allowing users to run as users and not admins and still have programs function, even if UAC bugged the crap out of people too often.

But after using Win 8 at the shop for a month the ONLY nice thing I can come up to say about it is "It'll probably be decent on a cell phone or a tablet" which would be fine IF you were talking about a company that had significant share in cell phones and tablets but we're not, we're talking about a company that threw hundreds of million after WinPhone and it went absolutely nowhere fast.

So if you think win 8 is good? Fine happy for you but at least EXPLAIN why you think its good, what benefits you have seen, and please don't do like Sinofsky and pretend that the world is gonna embrace PCs as "supergigantic smartphones" and rush out to buy touchscreens! Did anybody see his last Win 8 talk? i think he said touchscreen something like 30 damned times! less than 4% of the X86 market is touchscreens but watching him talk he has honestly deluded himself into thinking folks are gonna give up those 27in monitors for some $300 17in touchscreen! I got news for ya, Sinofsky? your shit ain't THAT good, in fact my customers all think it blows.

so please don't give us esoteric workaround crap just to get back what we've lost, sell it to us, tell us what we have gained. Because other than feeling like my desktop monitor ought to have a slider keyboard like a giant cell phone i'm just not seeing any benefits where i'm sitting. hell if you are the type addicted to twitter and FB and need 24/7/365 updates there are already gadgets that do that, so even that isn't a gain.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[tensedUp]

Hey, you know what I was just thinking? Yep, you guessed it. I was just thinking, "Fuck you!"

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[drkstr1]

What? What? What? I can't believe I've been missing out on this. Thanks for the tip. Now I just need to place my most used items at the beginning instead of the end, and I will be a multi-tasking machine!

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[hairyfeet]

The other major problem is there is no way in hell to just kill metro, even if you never use it its sucking resources and cycles no matter what. this would be fine on a modern desktop, where we have so many cores and so much RAM that nobody will give a crap, but what about laptops and netbooks? Do you REALLY want to give up a decent sized chunk of your battery life for metro?

I just hope this is the straw that breaks the camel's back. for a decade now Ballmer has been practically wiping his ass with money at MSFT and not showing shit for ROI, from killing playsforsure to Zune, from rushing the X360 out with a 2 billion dollar flaw to the Kin, from rushing Vista out with show stopping bugs to the Vista capable fiasco, not to mention the shitload he pissed down the drain to Nokia just to watch WinPhone crawl out the gate and die, the man has just been an absolutely pathetic CEO. the MS Office/desktop monopoly left to him by Bill is the only consistent cash cows they have and now the man is gonna take a giant dump on one of them because he has Apple envy and thinks if he forces WinPhone onto the desktop people will buy winPhone ARM. The guy is just a true horror of a CEO and maybe when Win 8 flops and with even conservative rags like Forbes calling him out for his incompetence maybe we'll get lucky and he will finally get the pink slip.

Because I honestly don't think MSFT can survive another decade with him at the helm, i really don't. I have to wonder if Gabe from Valve cooking up a Steambox Linux is just the first of many deserters, man what i wouldn't give to have a bunch of those big corps to fund ReactOS and just take the whole thing away from the sweaty monkey because its obvious he doesn't even understand his core businesses, much less how to actually branch and grow the company.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[X0563511]

Yea, if you right click it and go to the options, you can disable the grouping. Once that's done, and the pinned applications unpinned, it behaves very much like the windows XP start bar, except you can search from it.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[X0563511]

More likely they (at least I do) want the taskbar reserved for running tasks, and each window to have it's own entry clearly separated from the others. Here I deviate, and leave grouping set to be "on if it's crowded".

Launching tasks is not done (in my case) nearly as often as switching between running tasks, so those few extra clicks at the start save me trouble during runtime.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[hairyfeet]

And the much deeper question, and one that scares Ballmer and MSFT to their very core is the answer to this: Exactly WHY do people see this as a needless change?

And the answer to that question is why ballmer is so damned terrified he is willing to risk his cash cow desktop in a desperate last ditch Hail Mary pass to try to get into ARM. the answer is simple...PCs passed "good enough" several chips ago and are now well into "insanely overpowered' for what the masses have to do with them.

MSFT and the OEMs got spoiled rotten with the every 2 to 3 years PC change out thanks to the MHz wars but those of us in the trenches saw this coming in 06 when the first dual cores became mainstream. I have several customers on Pentium Ds and Athlon X2s, I have built office boxes using the tiny AMD E350 and have myself traded my full size laptop for an E350 netbook, why? why are they not screaming for new machines and i'm not having a fit for more performance? because frankly the jobs most have don't even stress those bottom of the line dual cores much less any mainstream system sold in the last 6 years.

So it isn't only bad financial times, although i'm sure some are also not buying because of that, but mainly its because they aren't even stressing what they have with the tasks they want to do. Hell my GF practically lives on her PC so this Xmas i built her an Athlon II X3 desktop to replace her old p4, know what I found when i had checked her performance stats? she hadn't ever gone above 45% CPU, and that is probably about as low end on the CPU spectrum as one can get in a mainstream chip.

There is just no killer apps that are stressing the CPUs anymore, and since we finally got rid of those p4 space heater laptops that would cycle themselves to death with a little TLC and common sense even a laptop or netbook can last for 5 years or more. THIS is why MSFT has suddenly gone snooker loopy, and its not tablets and phones replacing the PCs, its just people see no reason to buy a new one when their current machines are so insanely overpowered they can take everything they throw at them and not even stress the chips. there just isn't a reason to replace an X86 unit anymore until it dies which is what MSFT and the OEMs are suddenly getting wise to and having full blown panic attacks.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Sable Drakon]

Not everyone likes or wants applications to start in full screen. I know that I'll be using Win7 or Linux, instead of moving on to Win8. Mostly because of how counter-intuitive the dual-UI design of Win8 is. I don't use Windows to have a tablet interface on my laptop or desktop PCs. I surely wouldn't use Windows7 on a tablet. Why? The UI design in both cases doesn't work for the given platform. Add to that the fact that even if you wanted to live in Metro, you can't due to file management. Or that you can't live in Classic due to the Start Screen and Control Panel. It's going to be a confusing mess for new Windows users and an infuriating mess for existing ones.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[ILongForDarkness]

Metro is supposed to be more power efficient than win 7. Apps need to be made so that they can be hibernated really quickly since whenever the system is under memory pressure it will start dropping apps that are in the background. They claim crazy fast "rehydrating" something like 200ms (I wonder if they tried real programs not the phone->computer demo apps that ship with the beta but something "real" like VS or photoshop sized). Anyways since the system hiberates things and everything is supposed to use asyncronous functions the system can slip and wait for things like WOL packets and such much more efficiently. Whether it actually ends up working that way when things are out in the wild and users get a couple months do dump every stupid app a friend of a friend liked on FB is a different thing. But in theory metro is supposed to be rediculously efficient. Since the desktop is just another app it can be hibernated and rehydrated too so the memory management their should get you nice memory management on your legacy apps too since "windows" will just go away whenever you do something else.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Kalriath]

It was a taskbar before too. Just with a slightly bigger quick launch (you know, that thing from Windows 95 OSR2?)

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Kalriath]

Tom's Hardware didn't do that review. It's some gang I've never heard of called "Hot Hardware".

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[JDG1980]

Does anyone actually use the start menu anymore?

Yes. I use it all the time. Firefox gets launched from the Quick Launch bar, and for the other most commonly used programs, they're pinned to the Start Menu. The Windows 7 Start Menu is much more useful if you turn off "Store and display recently opened programs" from the properties sheet – that way you get what YOU want pinned to the menu and easily accessible, not what Microsoft thinks you might want.

I know Microsoft's data shows they don't, and people largely launch apps from the super bar.

Microsoft's metrics are largely taken from inexperienced home users. There is no good reason to think they're a representative sample. And even if power users are only 10% of the market, they're an important 10% – badmouthing from the tech community ensured that Vista was pretty much DOA, and the same may very well be true of Windows 8.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[TangoMargarine]

So wait...first we're all complaining that Metro doesn't make any sense for a desktop; that Metro only makes sense on portable devices. Now you're complaining that Metro will suck up precious resources on mobile devices.

What, are you planning to use the normal Windows desktop on a touchscreen phone or tablet? If Metro is specifically designed for touchscreens, why the hell would you?

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Missing.Matter]

You still haven't explained exactly how that's a problem. I press the start button to access programs I want to start. The visibilty of the desktop is immaterial to the task I want to accomplish by pressing the start button. With the start menu, and its tiny rectangle, I have a fixed 10 recently used programs. With the start screen, the number of items scales with resolution, so it actually takes advantage of the size of your monitor rather than wasting it by displaying information you're not even using in the current context.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[hairyfeet]

Yeah and I can say my butt grows wings and flies south for the winter but that don't make it so. Frankly the only metro "apps", which FYI I'm REALLY starting to hate that fucking word, has been the equivalent of fart apps and angry birds, aka cheap shitty little cell phone crap. People buy that shit on a cell phone because that is all you can really run on a cell phone but we ain't talking about cell phones here, we are talking about desktops and laptops. hell even MSFT has already said MS office won't be a Metro "app" so even THEY know you can't use that shit to get actual work done, just tweets for twits and FB blogging crap and other pointless worthless tripe like we seen bundled with every damned smartphone.

I find it telling that the Metro "apps" that were bundled at least with Win 8 CP (I'm gonna install Win 8 RP this weekend if I ever get a break) was pretty much the same crap that came bundled with my dad's new smartphone, pretty much all social shit besides a weather app. Honestly I've shown win 8 CP to nearly 250 customers from all walks of life and NOBODY CARES about all the endless tweeting twitting FB Farmville endless parade of pointless garbage, hell even the teens that tried it thought it was dumb and would rather just go to FB when they wanted FB.

So I have a feeling that Metro is gonna be this big dead elephant tied to the back of Win 8 that is gonna give it a Vista style rep for being a giant piggie. You go to someplace like tigerdirect or Walmart and see what their biggest selling laptops are, they are NON touchscreen dual cores from the AMD E300- Core i3 in speeds from 1.5GHz to 1.8GHz. With speeds like that frankly all that BS in the background is just gonna make the system feel as bloated as a fat guy that just ate at Taco hell, and with thin and light being the design words of the day all that starting and stopping and background BS is gonna suck down the battery like a wino hitting a free bar.

If they gave you an option to have it on or off? i wouldn't have a problem with it, although I find the desktop in Win 8 feels like a badly thrown together afterthought, kinda like those fake Win 7 transformation packs for XP that at first glance look real enough but once you try it you find it sorely lacking, but having metro run 24/7 even when you aren't touching the damned thing is just ridiculous. remember TANSTAAFL and no matter how quickly they flip that BS on and off its still gonna need cycles to do so, cycles you wouldn't be wasting on your battery otherwise. Although i have such a low opinion of Ballmer and Sinofsky that I'll be triple checking every Windows Update that comes out close to the Win 8 launch because honestly i wouldn't put it past 'em after the Vista fail for them to put out a patch that "just by accident" ties a boat anchor to Win 7 to make Ballmer and Sinofsky's "supergigantic smartphone OS" look better by comparison.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Missing.Matter]

Wow, then maybe you could refrain from making snide remarks on something you know nothing about?

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[thunderclap]

You can't organize a tile. Lets be crystal clear. Metro is designed for consumption not work. You have display numerous times that this is what you do. Good for you. However, you fail to grasp that a) win 95 on up has had numerous dimensions of the lists. You simply edit the actual folders in windows explorer. Where pray tell are the actual folders for the tiles?
And since you seem to enjoy pointing out the impossibility, please give up a screenshot of your start screen.
Finally, you can kill metro, kill explorer. Of course then you are back to command line. Mind you this is an assumption as I wont even run the download I got since I saw the abomination metro actually is.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Anonymous Coward]

Huge sudden changes on screen distract and make you drop the mental context.

Consider: you're reading a text/an IM and there's some numbers you want to verify, so you hit Start to run the calculator. Before, you still could keep half an eye on the text, with Metro you get your attention swamped by whole screen getting replaced. Now you've got to find the numbers again and, probably, to rebuild the model of calculation you wanted to do. Sure, it's just a few seconds, but they do add up, as well this waste is just unnecessary and could have been avoided with better design.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Missing.Matter]

There is no good reason to think they're a representative sample.

There's no good reason to think Microsoft doesn't employ a competent statistician who makes sure the sample is representative.

badmouthing from the tech community ensured that Vista was pretty much DOA

The tech community has been badmouthing Microsoft products constantly since the 90s, and that hasn't made any dent in their marketshare. Vista was DOA because it was a bad product. You're really overstating your influence.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Howitzer86]

I use the search/run feature constantly. Metro worried me so much that it made me install Enso Launcher to avoid the "jarring" experience caused by switching back and forth with it. That said, I hope they don't back pedal on that. I'm genuinely curious to see if people accept it.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[unixisc]

with Vista you had a better memory model, better support for 64 bit, and with UAC, ASLR, and DEP you had MSFT finally allowing users to run as users and not admins and still have programs function, even if UAC bugged the crap out of people too often.

I know you probably won't agree here that it was an improvement, but Vista also was the first Windows to properly support IPv6, and it also eliminated the 128GB HDD limit that XP previously had (until SP2). Honestly, I never had problems w/ Vista, although I'm using a different PC now which was adequate enough for just XP.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[CodeBuster]

I'm amazed they thought that making the free compiler for windows metro-only was a good idea in the first place.

Sounds like the sort of half-baked shitty idea that some marketing executive, who couldn't find his own ass with both hands, would come up with.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[unixisc]

For touchscreen phones & tablets, Android will walk away w/ the burgers done rare, while iOS will walk away w/ the well done burgers w/ steak sauce. Windows RT will be left holding the cucumbers, tomatos, avocados and other veggie accessories that most people don't care for in burgers.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[black3d]

Pfft. That's the best part of the entire Windows 7 UI. I counter that people who don't find it useful either don't know how to use it properly, or their specific usage isn't enhanced by it. Mine is, greatly.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[ILongForDarkness]

Exactly with the smartphone on a desktop thing. The other side of things: the start screen showing all your tiles. Again very phone like. Huge privacy issues IMHO. The tiles update with your data and if every app you use sits on your start screen with your data on it and you have to go back to the start screen for everything anyone in the room can see your personal data.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[jonwil]

Most universities will be members of one of the Microsoft programs that let students get free copies of the Pro edition of VS (MSDNAA and similar)

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[EdIII]

Because other than feeling like my desktop monitor ought to have a slider keyboard like a giant cell phone

I don't want my monitors to have any touch capability. Why? It's freaking useless. I have a bunch of large monitors on swing arms and stands in front of me, but they are not within arms reach. Much less set up to ergonomically use a touchscreen.

What would be really cool and useful is a wide (15"-30") touchscreen interface that either replaced my keyboard and mouse, or was at an angle right behind them.

You could use that with an operating system for so many useful things. Why have a start menu, or even a task bar on the main screens at all? That stuff just begs for a touch interface, but not when I can't reach it on a desktop.

This whole upset over Win8 and the massive search field is because MS is trying to shoe horn smartphone interfaces into a platform wholly unsuited for it just due to ergonomic reasons alone. For a company that does so much research into ergonomics, that is rather pathetic.

What do you need touch for , and provide it for that . That's what MS needs to figure out.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[aaron552]

Right-click in the bottom-left corner (the "start" button) in desktop mode. That menu contains many useful shortcuts. That menu and the new task manager are so amazing that I won't be sad to move on from Windows 7, although I still use Win7 on my desktop because the hot corners are really not very usable in multi-monitor environments at the moment.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[aaron552]

The tiles update with your data and if every app you use sits on your start screen with your data on it and you have to go back to the start screen for everything anyone in the room can see your personal data.

There's a button to clear the live tiles and disable updates, if it bothers you

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[hairyfeet]

But how many people are gonna be able to FIND the damned thing? hell there is usually a button for everything in Windows, its finding the damned thing that is a giant headache. Like the first month I switched from XP to 7 it took me a good month to equate sharing--adapter settings with network settings, I mean WTF? Why EXACTLY do i need sharing combined with networking? It wasn't like sharing anything with Win 7 was difficult in the first place, so tying those two things together just seemed kinda pointless to me.

in the end though i don't think its gonna matter, as just like with Vista where the bugs, bloat, and UAC becoming a parody had them running to me to "Get rid of this damned thing and put XP back on" I have a feeling Sinofsky's "supergigantic smartphone OS" is gonna put quite a lot of extra cash in my pocket when people come in, all pissed and frustrated and say 'get rid of this damned thing and put win 7 back on". It really isn't very discoverable or intuitive and one thing I've found is that folks really don't have a lot of tolerance from a PITA desktop or lap, especially when they know they have a choice and don't have to put up with it.It'll be another year and a half of dealing with downgrade rights (from now on I'm charging an extra 20% if they don't make the call, I'm tired of 30 minute sales pitches before they just give me the damned key) and selling copies of Win 7 Home and pro to those without rights.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[hairyfeet]

Noooo...because frankly I don't give a rat's ass about ARM mobile devices, I sell them but since they are closed systems that are beyond a PITA into pretty much impossible to fix i treat them about like an SD card but what I DO care about is X86 mobile, such as laptops and desktops.

So in ARM it isn't gonna matter, as nobody will be using the desktop, it'll be tweeting twitting fart apps all the way down but that's exactly the opposite of X86 as EVERYONE has X86 programs they are gonna want to run often that will NEVER be metro apps, even MSFT has said that MS office won't be Metro so that is one of the biggest office suites that won't even support the new "wonder interface" and its by the same company that wants us to believe metro is a viable desktop!

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[jimmyfrank]

I don't use the start menu, didn't realize how much I didn't use it until people complained that it was gone. I've used win8RP and get along fine without it.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Missing.Matter]

Why exactly do you feel you need touch for Windows 8? The whole thing can be used just fine with Keyboard and Mouse. There are tons of keyboard and mouse shortcuts and in many ways its even faster and easier to use with keyboard and mouse.

What would be really cool and useful is a wide (15"-30") touchscreen interface that either replaced my keyboard and mouse, or was at an angle right behind them.

If you really want you can do this with windows 8. You can dock the start screen on a close up touch monitor, launch apps from that and send them to any monitor you want.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[EdIII]

Why exactly do you feel you need touch for Windows 8? The whole thing can be used just fine with Keyboard and Mouse. There are tons of keyboard and mouse shortcuts and in many ways its even faster and easier to use with keyboard and mouse.

Keyboard shortcuts can be quite complicated and you need to remember a pattern, or profile, for a specific setup. Program navigation and shortcuts to standard operations would be quite useful. Similar to those huge tablets with overlays for common Autocad operations.

Visual will always be a lot faster and easier to customize across different platforms.

Everything in the taskbar, start menu, and system tray is very conducive to touch. The effort to grab the mouse, move it to the location, and click or hover is actually greater than extending out your arm and just touching the area.

If you really want you can do this with windows 8. You can dock the start screen on a close up touch monitor, launch apps from that and send them to any monitor you want.

That's kind of like a duct tape solution. Yes, it's a start. I also believe you can specify with most multi-monitor set ups a default screen to start apps on. I'm positive I have seen 3rd party software to assist you with this.

The real issue is the size and placement of the close up touch monitor. Too tall and it can conflict with seeing the monitors in front of you. Embedded in the desk surface and it is not that easy to see. A specialized screen that is at a 30-45 degree angle right behind the keyboard and mouse area that is only 8-10 inches tall would be ideal.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[Missing.Matter]

Everything in the taskbar, start menu, and system tray is very conducive to touch.

Okay... so you've said it works well with touch, but I don't understand how it doesn't work well with keyboard+mouse. The targets are nice and big and easy to click, and they scale well with resolution so they aren't too big. The mouse is capable of all operations a finger is, and honestly I think panning through the metro is easier with the mouse wheel than it is with a finger. Keyboard shortcuts make things easier, but you don't even have to know them; I can navigate the entire UI with just a mouse.

So again, I'm not seeing the keyboard+mouse deficiency everyone keeps harping on.

Re:Well, it's a beginning

[aaron552]

It really isn't very discoverable or intuitive

I agree. How do you discover what the hot corners do? How do you shut down (and why is it in Settings?) How do you close apps? (Admittedly, Metro apps that aren't in the foreground don't use any resources, but that's beside the point) How do you get to the "All Apps" listing? (aka what remains of the old start menu)

None of these were intuitive or easy to find.

That's one...

[Anonymous Coward]

So when will they relent on THE ALL CAPS MENUS?

Re:That's one...

[Lord Crc]

They already said it will be exposed as an option, so that's already covered.

I love the marketing speak

[MobyDisk]

This is a great marketing tactic here:

And it will enable developers working on open source applications to target existing and previous versions of Windows.

Translation: It will not forbid developers working on open source applications to target existing and previous versions of Windows.

developers want to have for Windows desktop development the same great experience and access to the latest Visual Studio 2012 features

Translation: developers want to have what they already had.

Re:I love the marketing speak

[gstrickler]

developers want to have for Windows desktop development the same great experience and access to the latest Visual Studio 2012 features

I translate it a bit differently: Despite our efforts to force Metro down everyone's throats, developers have told in no uncertain terms that they would prefer to continue developing for a traditional windows interface.

Re:I love the marketing speak

[shutdown -p now]

Translation: It will not forbid developers working on open source applications to target existing and previous versions of Windows.

That doesn't make sense. Making or not making VS Express available does not "forbid" anyone to do anything, since VS is not the only tool that can produce Windows apps. Qt Creator does just that, and comes bundled with MinGW - completely for free. It's open source itself, too.

Translation: developers want to have what they already had.

Again, not really. Developers already had VS 2010, and they continued to have it - it was not being taken away. The problem was that all the new stuff in VS 2012 was being withheld from those who used the free versions unless they were targeting Metro.

Re:I love the marketing speak

[cryptizard]

If they wanted what they already had then there was no problem to begin with as express 2010 will still be able to develop desktop applications. The quote accurately captures the belief (not saying it is true) that developers want the new features in 2012 but applied to desktop apps and not metro.

Re:I love the marketing speak

[CodeBuster]

developers have told in no uncertain terms that they would prefer to continue developing for a traditional windows interface.

Or perhaps for a competing platform should Microsoft persist with this idiocy. No doubt Oracle and IBM would be very pleased to see Microsoft make an "own goal" with a forced Metro-only approach.

Re:I love the marketing speak

[game kid]

...and I as well: Despite our efforts to force Metro down everyone's throats, developers have told in no uncertain terms that they would prefer to continue developing for a functional windows interface.

It's a free tool!

[plover]

They give away an up-to-date free (as in beer) version of one of the most advanced software development tools on the planet, and yet people complain about its limitations.

Re:It's a free tool!

[epyT-R]

This reads like astroturf. People are actually complaining because the free new version is less capable than the old free versions to date.

Re:It's a free tool!

[Missing.Matter]

They're only complaining because they're removing functionality people were used to. I agree this is the right move though.

Re:It's a free tool!

[finity]

That was my initial thought too. But the complaining worked, so more power to the complainers.

Re:It's a free tool!

[cpu6502]

>>>and yet people complain about its limitations.

If the MS software is free then you really have no right to complain.
It reminds me of when Fantasy & Science Magazine gave-away a free "digest" edition on amazon. As a digest, rather than get all ~15 stories/articles for free, you got 1 free story and 5-6 articles/reviews. A sampler basically. BUT people still complained about it:
- "I only got one story and some other junk."
Or "You have to pay $2 to get the full thing! No way."
Or "Amazon says they charged my account $0.00. I thought it was free??? What dishonesty! Never deal with this company again"

Re:It's a free tool!

[Microlith]

Yup. Who were they to whine that suddenly the express version was extremely limited in how the software made with it could be distributed!

Re:It's a free tool!

[pympdaddyc]

Okay, wanking about whether or not people have entitlement issues is missing the core of the situation.

There are developers that will be new to .NET development, and there will be developers that have already been developing desktop applications against the Express versions of the software. If we have learned nothing from the gaming console or phone platform wars, it is that you want to encourage application development. Any barrier to entry or project sustainability, even one that is merely perceived, will cause some number of people to pick a different platform to learn and grow on, and the .NET ecosystem will shrink. There are plenty of other languages and IDEs to turn to that are free, easy, and reliably maintained without having to worry about version-ed crippleware.

I am a full-time .NET developer. I'm an MSDN subscriber and so am utterly independent of the Express versions. Yet I feel very strongly that incidents like this hurt me and hurt .NET development on the whole. As a developer community we're already hamstrung by the lackluster (or totally absent, depending on how you look at it) cross-platform availability for the .NET framework and culture that leans more corporate/enterprise. The least we can do is provide a basic, sustainable development tools for learners and free/open projects.

Re:It's a free tool!

[plover]

Let's see if I've got this straight: "You gave me A, B, and C for free yesterday, and now you're only giving me an improved A and B for free? I deserve an improved C, too! You're a miserable, horrible entity for denying me the new and improved C!"

This reads like astroturf. People are actually complaining because the free new version is less capable than the old free versions to date.

So you've rationalized that all the complaining is somehow legitimate, and even insulted me as an "astroturfer" in the process. What makes you so damn deserving that they should give it away to you at all? It's this arrogant sense of entitlement that is so amazing to me.

Apparently the "Me" generation has begat the "Gimme!" generation.

Now get off my lawn.

Re:It's a free tool!

[DragonWriter]

They give away an up-to-date free (as in beer) version of one of the most advanced software development tools on the planet, and yet people complain about its limitations.

I think they were complaining because when a new Express version goes RTM, old Express versions are discontinued, and the new Express versions were announced to lack key features in the old Express versions, meaning that free access to features that are currently available in free versions of VS would no longer exist.

Re:It's a free tool!

[butlerm]

Let's see if I've got this straight: "You gave me A, B, and C for free yesterday, and now you're only giving me an improved A and B for free?

What would really happen if Microsoft crippled future versions of Visual Studio Express is that a market would be created for low or no cost alternatives. That would probably be a good thing but it would be annoying for many people to convert. It probably wouldn't be too hard to port KDevelop to Windows, for example.

Re:It's a free tool!

[Rogerborg]

What makes you so damn deserving that they should give it away to you at all?

Microsoft make their money from Windows (and Office). Developing apps for Windows adds value to Microsoft.

That's why they tried to limit Express to their new toytown touchscreen iWindows mess, to get apps developed for it that might tempt OEMs, businesses and end users to actually want it.

Looks like it's fool me once, shame on Microsoft, fool me seven or more times, shame on me though. We're not falling for that one again.

Re:It's a free tool!

[epyT-R]

I'm explaining why.. I'm justifying nothing.

Re:It's a free tool!

[shutdown -p now]

Let's see if I've got this straight: "You gave me A, B, and C for free yesterday, and now you're only giving me an improved A and B for free? I deserve an improved C, too! You're a miserable, horrible entity for denying me the new and improved C!"

That's reasonable thinking when competitors all offer their own analogs - A1/B1/C1 and A2/B2/C2 - for free.

(note how neither Xcode nor Qt Creator require you to write apps for Cocoa and Qt, respectively)

Re:It's a free tool!

[shutdown -p now]

It depends on your definition of "perfectly". For example, the C++ compiler in VS 2012 was updated to be better conforming with C++11 - while no major new features were added, VS 2010 predated the final version of the standard, and got some things outdated as a result; for example, nested lambdas. VS 2012 fixes a lot of those.

Re:It's a free tool!

[shutdown -p now]

If we have learned nothing from the gaming console or phone platform wars, it is that you want to encourage application development.

The irony is that Microsoft was one of the first to learn that lesson, ages ago - remember the whole "developers, developers, developers!" thing?

IMO, it's the setback from those past principles - of making development for Windows as easy and convenient as possible - that caused such a backlash here.

I am a full-time .NET developer. I'm an MSDN subscriber and so am utterly independent of the Express versions. Yet I feel very strongly that incidents like this hurt me and hurt .NET development on the whole. As a developer community we're already hamstrung by the lackluster (or totally absent, depending on how you look at it) cross-platform availability for the .NET framework and culture that leans more corporate/enterprise. The least we can do is provide a basic, sustainable development tools for learners and free/open projects.

As a VS developer, I can't help but agree with this.

As a side note, though. One good thing about this whole Metro deal is that its developer story includes a strong angle of catering to new learners, hobby projects, and small startups and such (that's why there is a Metro edition of Express to begin with, for example).

Re:It's a free tool!

[epyT-R]

not at all. I don't mind someone praising microsoft. if they've done something right, I'll agree. if not, I won't. discussion follows.

His opinion about visual studio is tangential to the topic, which is what comes with the express edition. The way he expresses his opinion read to me like astroturf marketing...the emphasis on 'like'. I don't know if it is or not.

Re:It's a free tool!

[El_Oscuro]

Microsoft development tools are very nice, some of the best in the business. However they have 2 major problems:

1. They obsolete old code - If you wrote a VB6 app and tried to port it to .Net, good luck - you might as well be porting it to Delphi.
2. Apps written in their tools only run on Windows. This is a major part of their lock in strategy, but can work both ways:
   • Our large corporation was absolute 100% Windows. You could not connect anything to our network not Microsoft without getting fired.
   • About 5 years ago, thousands of machines got PWNED because of a zero day vulnerability. As a result, we started deploying Linux wherever appropriate.
   • Now that Linux is established, we are migrating .Net applications to PHP. Why? .Net ties us to the Windows platform and we have been burned badly by that, so Microsoft is losing the entire serverspace because of it.
   • Perhaps Microsoft may want to issue runtimes for .Net for other platforms such as Linux, OS/s and Solaris. With the advent of non-Microsoft devices, the Windows (and all) deskops are slowly dying. They might want to get their foot in the door for non-Micorosoft server space before it is too late.

Re:It's a free tool!

[Richard_at_work]

You can bitch all you want about MS tie ins, but switching to PHP ties you in to PHP and that is the worst possible scenario in the world.

Re:It's a free tool!

[Paradigma11]

just use http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ or http://monodevelop.com/ .

Express = Free?

[Bill Dimm]

How did "Express" come to mean "free" in the software world, anyway?

Re:Express = Free?

[owlstead]

Dunno, but it keeps managers from only allowing the "free" version I suppose, and it does not have any relation to the word "cheap" and therefore "sub-par". Although I guess it does by now, at least for software.

Re:Express = Free?

[BitwizeGHC]

It dates from the late nineties when software vendors would offer reduced-feature versions of their software subtitled "Lite" or "Light" for zero or a considerably discounted cost compared to the full version. One of the most famous of which was Eudora Light, which was free; and contrasted with Eudora Pro, which cost about $40.

When it came time to offer free pack-in versions of popular Microsoft programs with Windows 98, Microsoft marketing decided that they didn't like the connotations of being feature-starved or nerfed that the "Light" designation bestowed, even though they were doing the same thing as everyone else and shipping feature-starved, nerfed versions of programs they normally charged money for. So they came up with this word "Express" which means the same thing, but has connotations of being fast and easy. The first programs to use this designation were, as I recall, FrontPage Express and Outlook Express.

Re:Express = Free?

[pympdaddyc]

I am not sure what you mean. The .NET Express IDEs are truly, 100% free. Software you write with it is yours and can be sold or made open source.

Re:Express = Free?

[Bill Dimm]

Thanks for the explanation. I'm well-aware of the old "lite" versions, I just never understood why "express" was seen as a better/clearer name since the software is generally not any faster than the full version. I suppose the process of obtaining the software (no credit card or manager's approval needed) is faster ;-) I guess the moral is that better != clearer in the marketing world.

Re:Express = Free?

[DragonWriter]

How did "Express" come to mean "free" in the software world, anyway?

Because marketing folks realized that it sounds better "Crippled", "Limited", or "Demo", which would more accurately describe the relationship of the zero-cost version to the full-price version that the zero-cost version exists to help support the market for by building a large base of users familiar with its general structure who will be inclined to purchase the full-price version when their needs exceed the limits of the zero-cost version.

Re:Express = Free?

[flimflammer]

Because certain individuals seem to think software isn't "free" unless the source is available and abides by the GPL or compatible licenses. It is free. It's just not open source free.

Free publicity!

[bregmata]

Microsoft could never buy the kind of publicity in the developer community that this kind of announce/recind behaviour will get them for free.

Man, they're good.

Re:Free publicity!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah.. thats what Microsoft needs .. publicity in the developer community. No really.. nobody was writing software for their desktop OS ! Nope.. nobody !

Well what do you know

[ArhcAngel]

I was all ready to post a snarky comment about not needing Visual Studio because I could do everything I needed in Delphi. So I quickly look it up since I haven't touched it in over 10 years and much to my surprise Delphi is not only still around but looks like it's thriving. Who knew?

Re:Well what do you know

[shutdown -p now]

I wouldn't say that Delphi is "thriving" - they're nowhere near as big as they were a decade ago - .NET stole most of their lunch. But there was a lot of code written in Delphi back in the day when it was actually the best tool for the job which still runs today, so of course supporting it makes sense - and adding new features while they're at it never hurts.

Re:A Microsoft story?

[PlastikMissle]

To be honest, I'm seeing as much Apple bashing as I see Microsoft bashing here in /.
Now Google on the other hand can't seem to do any wrong.

I got yer "Express" right heah!

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Wait, Metro. Wait, wut?

Oh, wait! That's that Windows 8 tablet/smart phone type interface bullshit, isn't it?

Fuck you Micros...wait, wut?

It's normal dev too?

Ok, then. n/m

Damn Straight!

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell the retard who designed metro to jump off the nearest bridge. Same goes for Ballmer. Get some fresh blood in that company stat!

Re:A Microsoft story?

[Reapman]

You've never seen Google bashing on here. Seriously? What do we also love Sony?

It's not too late, Win8 RTM isn't out yet...

[Tomsk70]

...there's still time for MS to consider that we're quite aware that they could sell Metro as a standalone app if it was so fantastic that everyone would buy it. Well, y'know, if everyone was using the hardware it's designed for...to say nothing of making it appear that the past seventeen years of Start-button UI development has apparently been going nowhere now that we apparently can't cope with two different ones.

And even ignoring Metro - what's in Win8 for the single-machine user? The list of truly minor improvements described as 'features' is embarassing - for example; an app store? Thank you MS, I'm so glad I paid for this! Faster bootup? Buy an SSD, it'll cost a third of the price. There isn't a single must-have feature. It doesn't even have a new DirectX to tempt the gamers.

Roll on Win9 with its 'because we listened' UI.

Wise decision

[grungeman]

Metro may be or may not be the future for Windows, but you can be sure that Aero and earlier Windows styles will be around for a while. New applications may be developed in Metro design, but if you extend existing apps, simply switching to Metro is not an option. Therefore I think Microsoft made the right decision to include support for earlier Windows versions in their VS Express editions. Limiting support to Metro would force many developers to stick with older versions, which cannot be what Microsoft intends to do. Since Metro and Aero are so fundametally different concepts, I suggest that Microsoft should offer a transition path that builds a bridge to Metro and allows developers to gradually adapt the Metro design. Maybe they could start with looking how the guys at www.iconexperience.com have done this for their icons.

OEM != $200

[tepples]

What $200 piece of software? The OEM version, which comes with a new name brand PC, is deeply discounted and reportedly almost fully subsidized by the fees that trialware publishers pay to get their products on the preinstall.

Re:OEM != $200

[drinkypoo]

My computer that I built to run Windows XP is more than capable of running Windows 8, you insensitive clod! I'm not about to go out and buy a new computer to replace my six-core, 8GB memory system to get a Windows license.

I have seen some people offering to sell me Windows 7 OEM licenses for $99, but I don't know how legit that is.

I'd like to be able to multiboot Win7 to play some of these newfangled PC games.

Re:OEM != $200

[QQBoss]

Cheapest (and easiest) way to get win7 in North America (and probably Europe, too, but it doesn't work in Asia): Make friends with a university student who doesn't want the $15 copy that Microsoft makes available to students at accredited universities (but not in Asia). $15 for the full Ultimate retail version, and if the school doesn't actually have DVDs on site Microsoft will email out a license code and a download link to a valid .edu address (and non .edu with some kicking, screaming, and a note from your professor). A similarly cheap (but not as easy) way is to make friends with someone who works at Microsoft.

Alternatively, if you do want to go to Frys, Microcenter, or any other retailer who offers you an OEM copy for $99, it is not legit (stupidly) unless you also buy at least one part you could use to build a computer (CPU fan, HDD, graphics card, etc...). When trivial gaming allows you to get ~50% discount, regular price is set way too high. But there are reasons why lotteries exist, as well.

Re:OEM != $200

[drinkypoo]

That's a pretty great idea, I even already have the Windows 7 Ultimate motherfucker edition ISO. I used to have a code from IEEE PC Club but I lost it because I am smart.

Academic discounts

[tepples]

Most teenagers don't have $500 to blow on visual studio.

Most teenagers are studying at an accredited institution and therefore likely qualify for a deep DreamSpark discount.

Re:Academic discounts

[epyT-R]

maybe when they're 18+ and going to university.. when they're still in highschool, they're either using free stuff or pirating..

Good, now just

[kimvette]

Good, now just fix the menus then you're off to a good start.

Next, make choosing Metro or Explorer (with Aero glass or classic) for the UI an option then Windows 8 should be even better than Windows 7. Otherwise, it will be at least as despised as the epic fail known as Vista.

Re:Why Not?

[shutdown -p now]

Either way those that want a desktop / start menu combo will either tweak windows to there needs or someone will release some software to get around it.

The software is already there.

DreamSpark for high school students

[tepples]

This article in PC World claims that it's for high school students too now.

Re:DreamSpark for high school students

[epyT-R]

well whatever, most kids are just going find whatever will run on their hardware.. if they run windows, they'll grab vs express.. if express won't do what they want, they'll torrent.. or they might try win32-gcc with another ide..

Re:DreamSpark for high school students

[tepples]

or they might try win32-gcc with another ide

And MinGW is exactly what I ended up doing at first (after having experimented with DJGPP). It's just that MinGW came with very outdated Win32 API headers last time I checked, and during the recent "APIs are copyrighted!!1" scare, the continued availability of MinGW was in question.

Is anyone surprised?

[flimflammer]

I called this when they first announced Metro only applications for Express editions.

However, getting applications compiled with Visual Studio to run in XP is still presently a lost cause. The only way you will be doing development compatible with XP is if you stick to VS2010. I hope they relent on this as well. I may not want to support XP, but it is still on a moderate chunk of machines.

Re:Is anyone surprised?

[jonwil]

The main reason why VS2012 apps cant be made to work on XP is because sometime around the VS2010 time-frame Microsoft decided to stop shipping the CRT build scripts (and those bits of the CRT it doesn't give out source for), probably because having custom-built CRTs was a security risk (even more so if people start using the same name as the stock MS CRT DLLs)

Re:Kind of moot

[flimflammer]

Are you being serious? Pretty much everything you've said is wrong except for .NET being windows specific. Visual Studio isn't .NET.

Re:Ubiquity and the McDonalds Playground

[lister king of smeg]

what have their ide associated with fatty foods? or with a childs play area? i don't get how thats good for them :D

What about the damn C compiler?

[Teckla]

Now if only Microsoft would update their damn C compiler.

Microsoft seems to only care about developers if you stay on the treadmill and only use technologies they care about.

Re:What about the damn C compiler?

[Richard_at_work]

They did, you didn't check any of the release notes it would seem - too quick to complain perhaps?

Re:What about the damn C compiler?

[Teckla]

As far as I can tell, Microsoft cherry picked a few (very few) C99 features for inclusion in their C compiler, but have no intention of implementing C99 (or even the majority of C99). As you may or may not know, C99 isn't even the latest version of the C standard anymore. This means the C compiler in Visual Studio is horribly out-of-date.

If you have information that says otherwise, please let me know. Thanks.

Re:What about the damn C compiler?

[Teckla]

I found some additional information (see the link below). It looks like Microsoft intends to implement those parts of C99 and C11 which are a subset of C++11. Which is better than nothing, I guess, but hardly what I would call a great effort to truly support C99 and C11.

Reader Q&A: What about VC++ and C99?

If some softwore come

[LucyMary]

We all the white mouses. And they wait for us to find bugs.

I suspect...

[sydbarrett74]

...this will be MS's first of many capitulations when it comes to Windows 8...

The next one will probably be a back-pedal on the Start Menu being ripped out by the roots in the Release Preview. Maybe a 'classic' mode option, after all, even if only by twiddling some registry key? I mean, many people made much of Win95's replacing Program Manager and File Manager with Explorer. However, PROGMAN.EXE was still present; it was just no longer the default shell. I think the RTM version of Windows 8 will add the Vista/7-style Start Menu back in some hidden, but still able to be activated, form.

Re:Wow, Single Vendor Sucks

[aaron552]

There is SharpDevelop...

Re: sh** it should have been there to start with

[AssholeMcGee]

This is a case of idiots with there up there own ass not listening to what people said, or wanted to start with. Instead of saying that, they gave a fantasy sugar coated statement that excuses there lack of care, which is amusing.. I am dumfounded as to why?? Are they that arrogant they could careless, of course until there pocket books start to come up short then they care. I am not sure why you create something, and ignore what users expect or suggest you should do. That is just good business, you create something and improve on it based on the people using it. When you have been around after awhile I would figure asking, then applying said suggestions from users would be a priority??