Ask Slashdot: Getting a Tech Job With Skills But No Formal Degree?

fmatthew5876 writes "I have a friend who graduated with a degree in philosophy and sociology. He has been spending a lot of his spare time for the last couple years learning system administration and web development. He has set up web servers, database servers, web proxies and more. He has taught himself PHP, MySQL, and how to use Linux and openBSD without any formal education. I believe that if given the chance with an entry level position somewhere and a good mentor he could really be a great Unix admin, but the problem is that he doesn't have a degree in computer science or any related field. He is doing stuff now that a lot of people I graduated with (I was a CS major) could not do when they had a bachelor's degree. Does Slashdot have any advice on what my friend could do to build up his resume and find a job? I know a lot of people think certifications are pretty useless or even harmful, but in his case do you think it would be a good idea?"

Comments

Whatever -- Smarts and Work Ethic Come First

[Anonymous Coward]

I barely graduated high school and I hold a high level IT position.

Key plan: don't lie about your college degree!

Re:Whatever -- Smarts and Work Ethic Come First

[Cute Fuzzy Bunny]

Same here. Worked hard and cheap for a while, then worked hard and for a lot of money once I had the street cred.

Re:Whatever -- Smarts and Work Ethic Come First

[Gilmoure]

Same here; art school drop out (was having too much fun playing with computers and then making money freelancing repairs). The first actual in was meeting a guy at a wake and talking computers. He said his team at Honeywell needed desktop support and that go me into the door. From there, writing documentation (learning systems/processes), some classes and certs and now am admining HPC clusters. My coworkers are mostly CS/EE degree holders, all the way up to PhD but turns out most of the actual job requirements are still job related knowledge (be able to learn quickly), basic problem solving skills, able to communicate clearly and straight forward and having decent people skills.

Oh yeah, in last two years, have started picking up people at the help desk and training up support personnel. Some of these folks have moved into our department as well. After our example, other teams are also looking at help desk as a potential talent pool. Used to be the only way out was up the desktop support ladder but that's changing. May want to look at help desk work and ask what their career options are.

Re:Whatever -- Smarts and Work Ethic Come First

[maitai]

Same as the GP, I didn't finished highschool. Have no degree at all. Started small and now make a bundle (and hire CS degree holders to do the monkey work I don't want to do, 'cause honestly... they suck...).

Experience trumps paper.

Re:Whatever -- Smarts and Work Ethic Come First

[Nethead]

I'm a HS dropout too. Learned computer programming at Radio Shack University on the TRS-80, worked fixing radio stations, produced telemarketing devices made out of C64s, got hired by an ISP in '96 since I was taking care of the local modems anyway. 2001 I was a Sr. network engineer at Amazon, Now own my own company providing technical services (what ever interests me.)

People would ask me what they needed to do to get into tech. My reply was, "Be obsessed with it." Don't do it for the money, do it because that's what you have to do.

Re:Whatever -- Smarts and Work Ethic Come First

[DrHappyAngry]

Heh, another high school dropout here too :D. I made it by working my way up through crap jobs until I got a decent break. Started in tech support for an ISP, then worked in a computer shop, made some contacts. Moved on to building servers and doing linux loads, then worked in an RMA lab for a router/firewall manufacturer testing hardware. Finally got a break as an admin. I beat out a guy with a CS degree for that position, just because I could articulate how DNS worked. Pay wasn't great, but better than what I had been making. Now I've moved on, and don't have much trouble finding good paying work with years of admin work under my belt. I love that my last couple jobs have had CS degree as a requirement for the position. I believe it was Kurt Vonnegut's great uncle that said "90% of what a man knows can be learned by a dedicated individual in 6 weeks. The other 10% is just for show."

Re:Whatever -- Smarts and Work Ethic Come First

[Bastardchyld]

The bottom line here is that you have to be able to get them to notice you. The way you get noticed (in no particular order)...

1) have a degree
2) have experience
3) have certifications
4) do something so interesting that they have to notice you.

If he can't do one of the above then honestly it is all a crapshoot after that.

Personally I don't have a degree, I have some certifications unrelated to my position. But I maintain a personal blog where I document interesting technical problems. Which I sell the crap out of in my resume and interviews (if I haven't mentioned it three times in an interview I am not paying attention). A blog is good because it demonstrates technical ability, communication skills, and the best part is that it can be so condensed. Something that takes them 2 minutes to read will have taken days to run through the steps and fully validate and document (would you let an interviewee walk you through an hours worth of work to show you that they know how to do something - I wouldn't). The best part of this approach is, that if you can get them to read your blog before the interview then you can steer the conversation towards meaningful topics (that you are well-versed in) this makes it easy to show the value you bring to the business. Additionally folks in IT are notoriously bad at documentation, every organization has the same problem and knows it, and every manager _wants_ to fix it. So you are going to introduce all of these crazy thoughts in his head about how you will light a documentation fire under the rest of your team members, and he will no longer have this problem (honestly he still will - its part of the program) but at least it will get better with you.

Another key area that alot of people forget about the process of finding a job is the interview. You should be interviewing the company and not the other way around. You should know that you can add value to the company (otherwise why did you apply? If you just want a job go to McDonalds!) the only question should be if the company can add value to you. Because of this you should make sure that you are asking questions like...

What sort of career progression is available in this position? Where do I go next, What do I do when I get bored?
What technical challenges is the company currently facing (bonus points if you can solve them)?
How would I fit into the organization? What would my role be at a minumum and what can it be if I show the value that I can bring?

If your first thought after the interview is "phew... Glad that is over." then you're doing it wrong.

The bottom line is that you have to have a clean enough resume to get past the HR folks, you have to be able to talk the technical talk and do the technical walk to get past the technical folks, and you have to be able to show business folks the value you can add so that they will give the technical folks the go ahead to hire you. If you break one link in that chain then you better have impressed another link in that chain because they will have to fight like hell to hire you.

Of course you could always just work cheap, though to me that is just a race to the bottom there is always someone willing to work cheaper. The key is to add value.

Re:Whatever -- Smarts and Work Ethic Come First

[Auroch]

I barely graduated high school and I hold a high level IT position.

Key plan: don't lie about your college degree!

I didn't finish my degree and I'm an Engineer at a medical device company. The VP of R & D here says "Your degree will get you your first job out of school. It won't get you your second." Point is, if your friend has the skills and can demonstrate them, the lack of a degree shouldn't be a factor at most places. What he needs is a foot in the door; persistence enough to get face time, the ability to communicate/demonstrate his skill set, and a good credible reference. Maybe that's you?

All these stories come back to the same thing - once you're working, it's easy (ish) to find another job in the same field. Getting that first job is the problem - so start networking. Do some volunteer work. In your situation, you pretty much have to get into a position (in life) where someone will hire you based on your knowledge ... and they usually do that by knowing YOU.

So find something sort of tech-y, get to know a bunch of people, do a bunch of volunteer work, and make sure that everyone you know moderately well knows that you're looking for work. It'll get you the job, if you're not completed a-social. Don't complain that "Oh, I'm not a social person, but I have tech skills". Well, if that's the case, get a degree in Comp. Sci and be quiet. Otherwise, you'll have to get "in" using your soft skills.

CS is not IT

[Joe_Dragon]

CS is not IT

Re:CS is not IT

[Sir_Sri]

because CS is about science and doing actual science. Developing new hash functions if you want a relevant example for todays news. Being a programmer is one thing in the toolkit of being a scientist, it's not the entirety of it.

Different schools have different emphasis though, but some places, where CS grew out of math departments it's much more about things like complexity theory, formal theory of languages and theory of computation sort of stuff than learning to write code.

For places where CS grew out of physics departments it can be much more hardware based, (Wilfred Laurier, the closest school to waterloo is a mostly hardware based CS programme, where waterloo is much more theoretical), or software, depending on what sorts of problems the people who created the department wanted solved, and how much money they could get to start the department.

Lots of CS grads, probably most of them, are not coders. They're scientists, some of whom can write code, and some of whom are much more about problems that can be solved with computers, and how efficiently that can be solved. Teaching people to code in a particular language is relatively easy if they have the math skills. Teaching them the maths skills is hard. Lots of them can't even replace a video card on their own, which seems kind of sad, but that's the same as an electrical engineer is not an electrician. They are related fields, but one is not entirely inclusive of the other.

CS *is not IT*. As part of doing CS you may have to learn to do some IT, but IT isn't programming necessarily either. A 5 year old can get a LAMP or Windows IIS php mysql setup going. IT is about being familiar with how to use particular software packages someone else has written to support whatever your business is. Being a network programmer, and sometimes that's part of being a sys admin, is about writing tools to solve your own unique problems, but not at the level of the packages you can download usually. The CS students who wandered over to your information systems or information science or... whatever programme did so because they want to know how to write code, but they don't have to be hardcore coders to be computer scientists. It's certainly useful for some people, and at some schools being able to code well is definitely required, but that's not universal.

Re:CS is not IT

[JonySuede]

If an expert system, an openGL based implicit 3dregrees of freedom equations solver, an A* chess game, a radiosity+multipath refraction aware ray-tracer, a numeric solver, and a symbolic algebra system that could preform derivation and reduction are considered code that actually does nothing, I would like to know what you did in your IS classes that is considered code that does something as I just listed the major practical works we had to implements in my CS Bachelor's degree?

Re:CS is not IT

[CubicleZombie]

99% of software jobs involve taking database column x and putting it in text field y. I hate to burst the bubble of any CS students reading this and dreaming about "expert system, an openGL based implicit 3dregrees of freedom equations solver", but reality is not that exciting. We all sit in the same cubicles churning through millions of lines of legacy Java code, filling in our change requests and putting cover sheets on TPS reports.

You're right. I did NOT do the same things you did in your CS classes. I'm STILL not doing any of that, and neither are many other people.

Re:CS is not IT

[Sir_Sri]

If that's the case then the CS programme was doing a bad job. A bachelors in any science should prepare you to be a competent scientist with expertise in that field. In the same way an engineering degree should prepare you to be an engineer.

It's true that for someone who is a full time research scientist directing research you pretty much have to have a PhD these days. But that doesn't mean the work the BSc and MSc level people do isn't science. Coming out of a BSc you should be able to pick up a journal in an area you know something about and make sense of it enough to know how you could use that information and re-implement it if you have the resources.

Being able to create new material for the journal....not necessarily BSc level. That's more the defining features of an MSc or PhD (and there it's about rate, novelty, and quality).

Sure, for 3 years after a B.Eng you aren't technically a professional engineer, but you're doing engineering under supervision of someone who is. But that should be the same with a science degreee. You start out life as a junior scientist under the heavy supervision of someone else.

After a BSc there isn't very far to go up that is actually anything new. An MSc and PhD take a few (4-8) more courses than in a BSc, but all of that course work is something a BSc level person can step into. Doing 'research' is a very specific type of problem that needs to be solved, where you're trying to solve a problem that fits in a publication. That's what MSc and PhD people specifically (myself included) have to do, but we are very marginally better trained than a BSc level person. After the BSc it's more about what sort of problem you're trying to solve, and just how much time you are willing to allocate to the problem and how much risk you're willing to take on it.

I grant you that lots of CS programmes are bad at making scientists though. But that doesn't mean they have to be.

Re:CS is not IT

[home-electro.com]

computer science is an oxymoon. There is no science in computer science.

Volunteer and/or do an Internship

[x0mbie]

I have had friends do this (and myself to a degree) and it can open doors you didn't know you had. Also join some local user groups (like I joined my local VMware User Group) and made a lot of good contacts, one even got me a job when I just got RIF.

Nah

[Stargoat]

Certs are good for non-IT degree folks. Heck, certs are good for everyone. Yes, there are people running around with certs that cannot problem solve their way out of a cardboard box while holding a knife. But mostly, they make you look better. Definitely go for them.

Re:Nah

[bobcat7677]

Yes, as a senior software engineer with no degree, I can say that certs definitely help. Yes, they don't mean much really, but they make your resume more attractive than the stack of resumes with no degree and no certs. Some employers won't even give you the time of day if you don't have a degree. The ones that will consider applicants with no degree have to wade through mountains of resumes from all sorts of riff raff that think they can bullsh1t their way into a job. Anything that makes your resume possibly look better then the next guy's and seem more legit increases your chances of getting an interview and ultimately the job.

Re:Nah

[cpu6502]

I would go for a 2-year technician degree since it sounds that's the level he's currently at. Overload with credits and do summer classes, and he'll probably finished in 1.3 years. You need the "sheepskin" to get past the HR people.

Re:Nah

[Zero__Kelvin]

... and the best part is that he can be completely incompetent and he'll fit in perfectly!

Find a book and a project to do

[gestalt_n_pepper]

And complete it, for someone. A church, or a nonprofit would be good. Another alternative would be to build a useful application and add it to SourceForge. Nothing spices up a resume like free downloadable open software that you've written, assuming it's well tested.

Portfolio

[Zaphod The 42nd]

I wouldn't recommend getting a Cert, probably more trouble and cost than its worth. Not as negative to have on your resume for a SysAdmin than a programmer, but still, it doesn't exactly shine, so it doesn't feel worth it. Its going to be hard, no doubt. There's just so many people who apply for IT jobs that have NO idea what they're doing at all, hiring is a nightmare. So much of the "interview process" is just to weed out people who should never be applying in the first place. You mentioned, "He is doing stuff now that a lot of people I graduated with (I was a CS major) could not do when they had a bachelor's degree" There's the answer. That's how you get a job without a degree, you do really impressive stuff that shows you know what you're doing and you care about it. Tell him to do as many personal projects as he can, and try to find everything he can do to show evidence of having done them. Set up a personal website, and make it as in-depth as possible. Write extensive notes on all the stuff he's doing that graduates couldn't even do, and include that with your resume. Take pictures, include links to live things on the web if you can, everything and anything to show that while you don't have a formal education, you still have experience. That's what counts. Other than that, I'd just say apply everywhere imaginable. Getting your foot in the door is the hard part, once he's got a job on his resume or two, people won't care about his education at all.

GO to user groups

[geekoid]

make friends and contacts.

And if you already have a degree:
Go to user groups,
make friends and contacts.

Re:GO to user groups

[Missing.Matter]

This is the real answer. The number one thing I hear from people who do hiring is "Yeah, we post the job but it's just a formality. By the time it's posted, we already have a guy in mind who was referred to us by a colleague/business parter/stake holder/trusted friend etc."

So if you want a job, you want to be the guy that's being recommended, and that comes from knowing the right people, not having the right degree. However, it's no mistake that in the process of getting the right degree you meet the right people as well.

Comp Sci != IT

[Missing.Matter]

Given that sysadmin is not in any way equivalent to Computer Sceince, I'd say he's in luck. Anyone who requires a CS degree for a sysadmin job is just ignorant of that fact.

He has a degree

[JonySuede]

He has a degree that's what is important to a lot of employer, now he just have to spin the logic part of the philosophy classes, if he took descriptive logic's even more so, emphasize his societal knowledge he should list his relevant experience, then provide a link to a demo. With that he should be quite ahead of the bottom of the classes CS grads, as far as the recruiter is concerned.

For a monetary interesting UNIX admin position, a cert*1, from redhat or from oracle, is a fast-track to a corporate position as he already have the degree.

1- CS major are not good at system administration usually

Networking (the personal, not digital, kind)

[DragonWriter]

Does Slashdot have any advice on what my friend could do to build up his resume and find a job?

If he has actual demonstrable knowledge and skills, then he needs to build contacts with people working in the field, specifically, people working in places with sufficiently non-bureaucratic hiring practices that a recommendation from a skilled current employee can help him get to an interview where he can demonstrate that to a hiring manager.

At least, that's how I got my first technical job with a degree in the social sciences and minimal formal experience (e.g., coursework) in computer-related fields. (I didn't actually build connections for that purpose, they were preexisting.)

Re:There are exceptions

[Sir_Sri]

If this was the 1980's the suggestions would be very different.

Back then finding anyone who knew anything about computers was a small miracle, and you could get your foot in the door and then experience matters. Today you're competing with people who are already a step above you, so you pretty much have to have demonstrable skills doing the job for someone, or you have to know someone that thinks you're competent enough to help you get a job.

Re:Tech Support position is usually the best way..

[NotSanguine]

Tech support? Why don't you suggest this guy suicides right away?!

I've been continuously employed in a variety of IT roles (Sysadmin, project manager, network manager, InfoSec among others) since '92. I don't have a degree of any kind and while that's kept me from interviewing for a few jobs, it hasn't really negatively affected my career. Certs and degrees are nice, but there's no substitute for experience.

That's why I usually recommend getting a tech support/help desk job to those trying to break into IT (if you want to be as developer, tester is a good starting place) IT if you don't have a degree or prior experience. That's the advice I give most folks who want to get into IT. Since quality IT people are few and far between, IT management will pick from the best of the TS/HD folks and move them up quickly if they show they have the right attitude/skills/outlook.

Yes, tech support/help desk work blows, but we all have to pay our dues. If you don't want to pay your dues, then you should consider suicide because you're a worthless piece of shit.

Some of us design and develop new things

[perpenso]

I hate to burst the bubble of any CS students ... We all sit in the same cubicles churning through millions of lines of legacy Java code, filling in our change requests and putting cover sheets on TPS reports.

No, we do not all do that. Some of us went into CS because we actually had an inherent interesting in coding, not because a parent or guidance councilor told us it was a good career path. Because we had an inherent interest in building things. An inherent curiosity regarding puzzles, practical or academic. We appreciated the theory presented in many classes because it better prepared us to design new things. And many of us matching the preceding sit in our cubes designing and developing new things, not maintaining old things.

I'm sure someone who came up through an IS program can probably make a similar observation.

What you end up doing has a high correlation to what your inherent interests are and to how seriously your took your degree program, CS or IS. I would not trust most of my fellow CS grads to design and develop new things, however these individuals typically were just in class to get a piece of paper to get a higher salary.

Re:Some of us design and develop new things

[hawguy]

I could not agree more with your post ! so I will repeat that fundamental part :

Some of us went into CS because we actually had an inherent interesting in coding, not because a parent or guidance councilor told us it was a good career path.

But that doesn't change the grandparent poster's point that when most CS students look for a paying job, they don't end up writing fun code, they end up writing codes to meet the business analyst's spec. No bonus points are given for innovative code, doing things the most boring (but easily maintained) way possible is what's called for.

Sure, there are lots of jobs out there doing "fun" things, but there are many more doing the boring things the grandparent poster mentioned.

Your motivations for entering the field do not assure that you'll be doing interesting work. Many teachers enter the teaching field to make a difference in a child's life and help give them a good education, then when they finally get that teaching job, they find out that they spend an awful lot of time pushing paper, working under restrictive rules, and teaching students to do well on standardized tests, not teaching them what they should be learning.

Open Source Fame

[Doc Ruby]

We hire people all the time who have talent/skills but no degree, CS or otherwise. We like to teach people how to do it our way. And no degree means they might think for themself, which can give us an advantage over the competition. We look for actual project experience, on project work like what we're hiring to do.

This is a perfect use of time to work on an open source project. Get something real done, and tell us about it. You might use the project at the job where you're hired. If you're known in the community, their responses to our questions will be specific, meaningful ,and come with URLs and downloadable evidence.

One Year Computer Science Degree from Oregon State

[prickeke]

Oregon State University now offers an online, one-year, computer science degree. The only requirement is that you have ANY bachelor's degree. This sounds perfect for this "friend." Do the time and work and you'll be employable by any company that wants to hire a CS grad. Reference: http://eecs.oregonstate.edu/new-online-post-baccalaureate-computer-science-degree

My advise

[rsilvergun]

Get yourself a programming project. I do a plugin and I did a few projects at work. Those helped a lot. It's hard work (maintaining that plugin can be tough), but worth it.

Also, keep an eye out for stuff at your job that adds value to the company but lets you learn. Let the rest of the guys around you do the easy rut stuff. Take on the challenging stuff so you can get paid to learn.