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Neal Stephenson Reinventing Computer Swordfighting, Via Kickstarter
New submitter toxygen01 writes "Neal Stephenson, sci-fi writer mostly known for his books Snowcrash and Cryptonomicon, takes on revolutionizing virtual sword fighting with help of crowdfunding. Inspired by the little-known fictional universe of 'Mongoliad,' an interactive book he is collaborating on, his company is trying to develop hardware (low-latency motion controller) and software for realistic medieval sword fighting. From what is promised, it will try to be open for other developers by having API and SDK available for further modding." Very few Kickstarter drives have a steel longsword as one of the rewards for investing.
I don't think any game requiring proprietary hardware will ever be worth it.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
air doesn't give feedback when struck.
just kinect it, if you're swinging air.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
If I hit the other guys sword and I don't feel my elbow trying to tear itself apart when my sword hits resistance I'll still feel like I'm waving flashlights at my kid brother going "I got you! No seriously!"
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We can do boffers in the back yard, and this cannot even rise to that, much maligned, level of realism. At least send old Neal over to the SCA for a few clouts in the head with a rattan and compressed foam 3 pound mace. Even THAT isn't exactly realistic, but it IS as close as you'll ever get.
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
There's been a bit of a transition in the use of Kickstarter. Initially the idea was to provide seed funding, to cover expenses for a project that someone wouldn't be able to do otherwise unless they got conventional funding (e.g. grants or angel investors). So, for example, $5k for supplies and a few months' rent to support an art project. Then there were perks just as thank-yous to supporters.
It seems to be slowly transitioning to a pre-order system where the perks are the point, though. Neal Stephenson is a multi-millionaire; he does not actually need this seed funding to pay his rent and expenses. If he wanted, he could self-fund the entire project. So why would he use Kickstarter? My guess is to get early buy-in from potential customers, to validate the idea's appeal, to build buzz, etc. Essentially a business-strategy use of the platform rather than a seed-funding use.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
If he can get his custom "Swordfight Game Controller" off the ground then maybe others can step in with new types of game controllers, that may, in the long-term, revolutionize the currently rather boring, sequel-to-a-sequel type world of AAA game publishing. I hope that Stephenson does a good job with this. If he succeeds, then many other game-controller design projects could follow his, and the best of the crop will get funded the same way he did. =)
Why did the chicken cross the road? Because Elon Musk put an AI chip in its head.
From the video, it looks like they are already completely swarmed with SCA types. It's filled with people doing IRL fighting.
Make it a CHAINSAW!
http://www.google.com.ua/search?q=lollipop+chainsaw
Really? Some of us have done it with real (if blunted) steel weapons. I love my bastard sword. Once you have you won't want to waste time on a 'realistic' virtual version with some lightweight controller - or bit of wood or cane. Maybe a rapier would work but nothing weightier.
TBH this isn't an input problem, just get a Wii controller and treat it like a sword. It's the simulation after you've read it. The next step of making it feel real is beyond most gamer budgets, they should just buy a weapon and join a recreation society.
Need some execrise on how to handle my Longlaw properly without laying waste to my appartment or people around me.... Great idea, count me in.
The video is swarming with HEMA types. Granted, there is some overlap of practitioners of HEMA and SCA, but HEMA is something very very different from SCA.
This already exists, swordfighting just doesn't get much better than that!
Circumcision is child abuse.
Try HEMA, that is as close as it gets. SCA is mostly LARP boffer, with harder sticks. HEMA is a proper martial art.
Yep, I loved re-enactment fighting with mild steel weaponry, though I was best with a spear. (note: below observations are from dark age weaponry, viking/saxon era, not late medieval greatswords or renaissance rapiers).
I guess the virtual version would work better with a lightsabre-based approach - hence no resistance feedback if you slice someone in half.
You also need the feedback of the weight of the weapon, a steel sword is quite cumbersome to wield, the weight of it will drag you around so you cannot twist and reverse direction quite as easily as a virtual sword, even assuming you don't have a lightweight, cheap, plastic sword shaped wand to use with the controller. And then you will often use a shield, and they get heavy quite quickly, too many hits I made were against opponents who's shield arms were getting a bit tired and droopy.
to have something in the sword (or vr gloves, for that matter) to give you just enough sensation to know that you've struck/touched something. seems this would've been worked out years ago. possibly even a whole "body glove", that has millions of sensor points that would depress inwards, with various amounts of force, and actually touch you. is no one working on this type of thing?
...
It is arguable whether steel or rattan really gives you a better feel for the real thing. Rattan has the weight and balance. The thing with steel is you really do HAVE to hold back in some ways. Get out there with good armor and rattan weapons you can really go at it full tilt. Then again I've never fought with steel, perhaps there is something essential lost there? Can't say the steel weapons I've handled really felt that much different. Most available steel weapons are also rather questionable reproductions. Usually quite overweight from what I've seen, but not really any kind of expert on that subject.
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
With a steal broadsword, you really want to swing bring it to a stop about two inches inside the opponent. Any stronger, and it is in danger of snagging and you dying immediately after your first opponent. With a spring steal weapon, you pull the blade a couple of inches before it hits, but the movement is more or less the same. If they're wearing chain mail, then you don't even need to pull it much...
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If anyone didn't catch it, watch the video and there's a cameo of Gabe Newell forging a crowbar and saying "These things take time"
Um, you might want to do a little searching about Neal first. Neal does work with properly steel longwords, not rattan and foam stuff.
No offense, but this is still just simulation. Short of the fear of being maimed and killed, the sick feeling in your stomach, and staying focused while wanting to piss yourself - this is about as realistic and useful as a Wii controller.
Try out Albion swords.... Really good... I highly recommend the Lichtenauer.
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The main charactor in Snowcrash, Hiro Protagonist, is known as the best swordfighter in the Metaverse. So, obviously, his interest in swordfighting predates his most recent work. Hiro, besides actually knowing how to use a sword in the real world, also wrote the template sword fighting code for the Metaverse. I guess Neil Stephenson is looking for that "edge". :-)
Besides, a good generalized real-time controller framework will enable many types of gaming besides swordwork...the code should be similar enough to enable things like baseball bats, hockey sticks, and golf clubs.
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Meh, don't knock rattan. It can be QUITE realistic. As I said above, the advantage is in not really having to hold back. Even dull steel is unfriendly stuff. It may be true that the majority of people fooling around with rattan weapons in the SCA aren't particularly serious and have no clue, but you can also find people who are very good and know there stuff. Believe me, fighting with some of them can be quite an experience.
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
Yeah, I'm sure there are good ones. I hear they are VERY not cheap though. It is actually kind of hard to know what is and isn't really good either. VERY few people have any experience handling authentic non-reproduction period weapons. I've been told even most of the expensive stuff is not usually particularly well balanced (after all, these products are basically made to be display pieces and there's almost zero chance anyone that would know the difference will handle one).
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
we would be better off as a society pouring the money into parks and bike trails instead of video game controllers and fake worlds that dont exist.
it is a sad day for the species when SCA can be compared favorably to something by calling the other thing "too much make believe".
He fights like a cow?
If they're not calling this "Operation Guybrush," it's a golden opportunity wasted.
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
Let's say Stephenson is worth $5 million in reasonably liquid assets. Ok, fine, he could clearly afford to fund $500k for a project BUT that is 10% of his total funds. Not a trivial amount. Think about if I asked you to put up 10% of your liquid assets to something that might not make any money, would you be interested in doing so?
Part of actually staying rich, once someone becomes rich, is not just blowing through money. No matter how much you have, you can easily spend it all in a short amount of time on shit if you try.
Goes double if you aren't in something where you have guaranteed income. He's made a lot of money because people liked his books. However maybe he never releases another book that sells well. In that case, his money needs to last. A million dollars is a lot when you are talking a yearly salary, however it is not a lot when you are talking trying to live on it for a long period of time.
There probably is a business aspect to it as well but just understand that a half million dollars is a lot of money to someone with a few million dollars much as a thousand dollars is a lot of money to someone with ten grand. Yes it is money you could spend but it is a significant portion.
It depends a lot. Some expensive swords are meant for display, but there are also plenty of accurate replicas meant to be used in one of the historical schools.
My instructor brought a few EUR500 swords along, and these were beautifully balanced. I also own a cheap 14th-century replica made by Darksword Armory, which is very well balanced for a cheap piece, even if it is blade-heavy (which fits with the historical original it was based on).
The only thing I can say is, hang around a good HEMA group, they'll be able to tell you the good from the bad. The Liechtenauer mentioned above is a good example. It goes for around EUR 450 from Albion Europe, but it's worth it.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
This....is my BOOMSTICK!
They could sell mountable robotic fencing arms and just cloud-source the signals from that lady that can control the robotic arm with her brain. Although if you put it on XB360 or PS3, she'd probably just end up getting a bunch of spam from people who wanted handjobs.
A way to stab people in the face over the internet.
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You'd be surprised how many pounds of force are involved when swords are involved. Impinged shoulders, ripped rotator cuts, and other injuries are common even in 'stunt' sword play for stage and screen. I am sure that what's being proposed is going to be as realistic as clutch-less driving games. The object is to make the player feel good about himself, not make it realistic.
Ever notice that insects, sprains, cold and thirst are never included on shooter games?
No wait. I think the word is provocative. I'm so confused.
I have hit people, and been hit by, rattan. It's not a surrogate for a weapon, it is a weapon in its own right. If you doubt this, come play. I'll demonstrate. (I don't do medieval play, I play Tri-V PTK, which is not a form of recreation, it is a method of killing people)
How can one get stabbed in their games? It wouldn't be fun without all the danger!
For instance, FIE (Olympic) sport fencing?
It's certainly fairly different than with real sharps (you will be far more fearless obviously) but it can be instructive.
Sport fencing originated as practice for actual swordsmanship---swordsmanship for one-on-one dueling combat, and not large-scale military melee which is completely different. For a game like this, it seems that simulating the 1-on-1 era (say 1600's-1700's with rapiers etc--personal weapons of the wealthy) would be a goal. As point weapons, they were quite sharp and very effective.
If you've actually fenced some, you learn some things pretty quickly. Too many people's idea of combat seems to have been influenced by "theatrical swordplay" on stage & film. In theatrical swordplay, the combatants are too close together and the goal appears to be clanking their weapon against their opponents weapon in synchronized acrobatic fashion, instead of actually trying to hit the opponent.
Things you learn from actually fencing:
a) keep the pointy bit pointed at your opponent, not the air or the ground.
b) don't flail around with your sword arm, you expose target area which a skilled opponent will hit, because he is keeping his pointy bit pointed at you and ready to strike.
c) fencing is 80% legs and timing moving back and forth. Champion fencers win because they have stamina and explosive leg power and the ability to gauge distance appropriately. Sign of a master is one who can play with an opponents timing and distance, getting a rhythm and setting up the opponent's expectation, and then suddently strike explosively with an uncomplicated
d) it's *very* tiring.
A sword is not a stick that you bang at someone as hard as you can. Simulation-wise, a blunt steel sword is the best choice, second best is one of the new nylon swords available, they get a bit flappy (i.e. they allow you flick the opponent (or use the sword as a whip essentially)) some times, but are reasonable in handling, but on the light side. For most sparring, we use nylon, but mostly since the extra gear needed (e.g. padding) for doing steel sparring is quite expensive.
...instead, look for a kendo or fencing club near you.
-1 uninformed.
This is about real historic sword fighting, and as it looks, he's already got much more experience with it than any SCA types.
THAT http://www.thearma.org/ is how sword fighting really works.
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I am glad it is HEMA. I have been screaming for that kind of true medieval martial arts in sword video games for years now. I just hope they use a bunch of different martial arts, like i33, kunst des fechtens or armizare.
Meh, I think you'd be quite surprised. There's a bit of a difference in the sort of fighting done. All I can say is that the quality of the expertise around this area back in the days when I paid attention was quite high, but far less focused on late period techniques. I assure you any of your guys would meet a quite unpleasant surprise in a circle taking on someone like Randall with a halberd.
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
Here's a *multimillionaire* coming hat-in-hand to say "give me this money and I'll develop that".
Kickstarter seems an effort to crowdsource-reverse the method of capitalism - instead of "if you build it, they will come" KS seems to suggest that you get enough people to say they'll come, you'll build it...maybe.
I'm not poor, but I don't have $50, $100, $500 to blow on a completely speculative venture. It seems that lots of people do? Certainly, a relatively small proportion of people have more spare cash than Neal Stephenson does, yet he's asking US to fund his idea.
On the one hand, the news tells me 24/7 that the economy is a disaster, yet people have millions to dump into thin-air projects with no knowledge that the kickstarter will use the funds properly or even has any capability to do it.
-Styopa
It seems from the Kickstarter page that they will focus on the longsword, Lichtenauer-style.
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"I'm dissatisfied with how swordfighting is portrayed in existing video games." -- Neal Stephenson
We're all critics, Neal. I share your sentiment, albeit with eleven years of practical swordsmanship experience and nearly a year teaching traditional Japanese swordsmanship behind me.
So I guess he didn't think "gcc" had quite the same wow factor.
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Steel on Steel contact feels VERY different from Rattan or Wood or Nylon. Supposedly Steel sharps feel different yet again from the blunts I train with, but I'm not expecting to find out about that anytime soon.
There's nothing wrong with it as a training weapon, I've done 12/13th century stuff and you learn with wooden weapons, then and now.
But for many swords how you use them is seriously dependent on their mass, from use of momentum against your enemy and his weapon to the simple fact that you can't move the blade as fast and expect to keep fighting long. For some periods swordplay is a full contact 'sport' where knocking the other guy down is part of the art and the weapon supplies part of the force.
While I'll agree that speed difference less of a problem in single combat than pitched battle the speeds are still going to be wrong. That's realism I don't feel like abandoning, which is my main problem with this whole scheme. There's a serious danger here of their own uncanny valley, where it superficially feels realistic enough to regularly remind you it's false because the little things aren't quite right. Though I'd say the lack of controller halting force feedback might make that a purely theoretical problem.
Mass is a big thing, yes, and balance. Rattan has the mass, balance of course really depends on who made the weapon, though of course probably a lot of run-of-the-mill period weapons were not particularly all that balanced anyway (museum pieces we have today generally being only the highest quality examples of the art).
For a controller I'd say mass is critical, haptics of some sort would be pretty necessary as well, though at least you can get some of the feel of handling a weapon if it has the correct weight. Frankly nothing is going to come even close to what it is like to actually fight for lots of other reasons anyway, at least until we have holodecks. I'm doubting even our buddy Niel can't get one of those built...
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson