Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Erasing Details Of Bad Memories

Posted by Soulskill on from the will-it-work-on-the-star-wars-christmas-special dept.

An anonymous reader writes "People can be trained to forget specific details associated with bad memories, according to breakthrough findings that may lead the way for the development of new depression and post-traumatic stress disorder therapies. New study (abstract), published in the Journal of Experimental Psychology: Learning, Memory and Cognition, reveals that individuals can be taught to forget personal feelings associated with an emotional memory without erasing the memory of the actual event."

83 of 135 comments (clear)

  1. Why bother with roofies anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Rohypnol: that's soooo 2001.

    1. Re:Why bother with roofies anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How happy is the blameless vestal's lot!
      The world forgetting, by the world forgot.
      Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind
      Each prayer accepted and each wish resigned.

  2. Slashdot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What the hell's that?

  3. I AM NOT QUAID!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    AHHRHRHHRHAHGHGHGHGAHGHGHGHG

  4. Midazolam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    The drug Midazolam (trade name Versed) is already used to induce anterograde amnesia before certain unpleasant medical procedures. This is used where the effects of an anesthetic are undesirable or impossible.

    Sometimes this causes problems - it is often abused by the health care industry to sometimes horrific results. In the worst cases, people are put through what can only be called torture under the assumption that the drug will block their memories of the event, and even though their conscious memories of it are gone later, they suffer PTSD type symptoms after the fact. The tales of people who've had bad experiences in that regard are bone chilling. This isn't universal of course, and used judiciously the drug has beneficial uses. But it is not always used wisely.

    Also, there is some evidence it can cause permanent or semi-permanent memory impairment in the elderly, as it interferes with the mechanisms of memory formation.

    1. Re:Midazolam by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 5, Interesting

      under the assumption that the drug will block their memories of the event, and even though their conscious memories of it are gone later, they suffer PTSD type symptoms after the fact.

      This sounds like wildly incompetent malpractice then. Even if you're going to get 'routine' major surgery with general anaesthetic you should insist on a spinal block for pain. The anaesthetic blocks out frontal lobe consciousness and some memory formation, but other parts of the brain are going, "holy fuck, I'm being sawn in half!" which leads to major brain trauma and long-lasting problems. Ever know somebody who came out of surgery 'changed'?

      Docs at Walter Reed have been on the forefront for a while, because screwed up soldiers are expensive. But regardless of their cost cutting motivations, this should be well known in anaesthesia by now...

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    2. Re:Midazolam by FrootLoops · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      During one of my dad's heart surgeries, they kept him semi-conscious with Versed. He curses the person running the anesthesia to this day for not giving him enough Versed since he remembers much of the procedure, including the doctors discussing how much energy to use to shock his heart out of fibrillation.

      That said, I wonder if using too little Versed is sometimes the culprit in the PTSD type symptoms you're discussing (which my dad has, for that procedure and other reasons).

    3. Re:Midazolam by datavirtue · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You don't need drugs to do this. It's called the Science of Compassion.

      http://www.amazon.com/Walking-Between-Worlds-Science-Compassion/dp/1889071056

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsGl-XIWM5Y

      Looks like crazy shit until you give it a chance and realize that it is not about the messenger and his crazy hair, but about a more rational and evolved way of treating life in one's mind.

      Just sayin'

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    4. Re:Midazolam by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "This sounds like wildly incompetent malpractice then"

      And you're speaking from what authority? Let me see your MD. I had to have some pretty bad surgery (I'm a huge chunk of titanium on the right side of my skeleton) and I've got some problems emotionally from that. This is fairly typical, speaking among other patients that underwent similar trauma surgeries.

      You ever have to have MAJOR surgery after being dead, TWICE?

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    5. Re:Midazolam by redneckmother · · Score: 1

      Holy Crap!

      I lost an entire week last year (post-op) because of Versed. In defense of my surgeon (and prescribing doctor), I now believe that it is a GOOD THING that I can't remember any details.

      I was initially upset about the "loss", but now feel indebted to my doctor. The time I "lost" was well worth not having to remember what transpired. I came to this conclusion after discussing the events with my spouse, other family members, and hospital staff.

      I don't *think* I have any PTSD from the experience. I do know that I have some memory loss (specifically, inability to recall names of friends made prior to surgery).

    6. Re:Midazolam by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Don't depend on me, I've just related what I've read in articles. I cited the authority already - call the docs at Walter Reed who study this if you need to see an MD degree.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    7. Re:Midazolam by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2

      Ah, you're insisting on a particular legal standard. I'm talking about common usage and a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.

      Here's the general definition:

      mal-prac-tice:
      Noun:
      Improper, illegal, or negligent professional activity or treatment, esp. by a medical practitioner, lawyer, or public official.

      If part of a procedure is skipped that is known to prevent harm, I don't know what else you'd call it.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    8. Re:Midazolam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Docs at Walter Reed have been on the forefront for a while, because screwed up soldiers are expensive."

      And the above doctors have had stunning success, right ?

      That must be why the US has lost more soldiers to suicide than to enemy action.

    9. Re:Midazolam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That must be why the US has lost more soldiers to suicide than to enemy action.

      Really? I didn't know that. Could you please provide some references?

    10. Re:Midazolam by r0ball · · Score: 3, Informative

      Wow....googled this and it appears to be somewhat right: apparently more soliders killed themselves than died in combat in 2010

    11. Re:Midazolam by r0ball · · Score: 1

      Even if you're going to get 'routine' major surgery with general anaesthetic you should insist on a spinal block for pain. The anaesthetic blocks out frontal lobe consciousness and some memory formation, but other parts of the brain are going, "holy fuck, I'm being sawn in half!" which leads to major brain trauma and long-lasting problems.

      Fortunately for those of us who've undergone major leg surgery with general anesthetic, I don't think there's much evidence out there of the occurrence of "major brain trauma and long-lasting problems" from not having also had a spinal block. I'd be interested to read any actual evidence you can provide to support your statement.

    12. Re:Midazolam by mSparks43 · · Score: 1

      News you won't find on CNN or Faux.

    13. Re:Midazolam by FrootLoops · · Score: 1

      I gave the video 11 minutes and never got past the "crazy shit" stage. He seems to ramble from one irrelevant line of thought to the next while only rarely getting to a point that's somewhere between mildly insightful and rather trivial (eg. people tend to feel the emotions they see in others, as when a crowd gets fired up by a frontman; he gave no example, I supplied this one). By far his most important asset as a speaker is his extremely calm, almost otherworldly delivery. It dresses up his lackluster content in the guise of a metaphysical guru who just "knows things".

      That said, the 2 hour presentation probably has a few minutes' worth of insight if you can stomach it. I could not, though I would read a page of notes derived from it by someone more... sane.

    14. Re:Midazolam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That doesn't necessarily translate to a bad scenario. Suppose because of their effectiveness zero casualties were the result of combat, but that soldiers were as likely as members of the general public to commit suicide. I'm not saying that's the case, but a higher suicide than casualty rate could possibly be taken to be "a good thing."

    15. Re:Midazolam by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That article quotes a suicide rate of 468, from an armed forces contingent of 1.5M or 3M if you include reservists (which the 468 figure does include). That means that 0.015% of the US military commits suicide, which puts them at around 15 times the national average. That doesn't necessarily imply a causal relationship. Several reasons come to mind immediately why they would be expected to have a higher suicide rate than the general population:

      Most people in the USA who commit suicide do so with a firearm (around 60%). This is one of the easiest ways of killing yourself because it lets you do it quickly - giving you less time to reconsider - and is believed by most who do so to be a painless way out. At the very least it's quick.

      The second reason is that a lot of army recruitment material talks about giving people a purpose or direction in life. As such, I'd expect a significant percentage of people who feel they have nothing to live for to join up (as is a recurring theme in fiction) and, if the army then fails to provide them with something that they consider to be a worthwhile purpose for suicide to seem like an attractive alternative.

      Finally, there's the obvious correlation between high-stress occupations and suicide...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    16. Re:Midazolam by Sara+Chan · · Score: 1

      Suicides in the military are most commonly due to domestic personal matters: the soldier's spouse being unfaithful back home.

    17. Re:Midazolam by Shoe+Puppet · · Score: 1

      Technically, the suicide is still caused by the time in the military that way.

      --
      (+1, Disagree)
    18. Re:Midazolam by demonlapin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm a practicing anesthesiologist in the United States. My first job out of residency was running a day surgery center that was over 50% orthopedics. I understand the treatment of surgical and postsurgical pain. I know how to create a proper balance of analgesia (pain relief) and anesthesia (loss of response to surgical stimulation) and amnesia (not remembering things you'd just as soon forget).

      It sounds to me that you have been told about a very common method for dealing with pain after joint replacement and assumed that it was a generally good plan for most anesthetics. It's not. Here's why.

      That "spinal for pain" is - when we're talking about joint replacements - usually 200 micrograms of morphine. It's not a "spinal anesthetic", which would be a local anesthetic agent like bupivacaine or lidocaine injected into the fluid around the spinal cord in order to make someone surgically numb; instead, it's there to work on the receptors in the spinal cord that prevent pain from being transmitted upward. As a downside, it does cause itching in the majority of people. You can't give them to people who are taking blood thinners (there's a risk of a hematoma developing in the epidural space and causing paralysis if it's not noticed and corrected in time). You can't use it for outpatients, because it does carry a risk of respiratory depression. Patients who get it can't have a patient-controlled-analgesia (the press-a-button-for-morphine pump) for the first 12-24 hours.

      For those who are having arm/shoulder or foot/ankle surgery, a peripheral nerve block is by far the superior choice, but there are certain cases where it can't be used, and others where the risk-benefit balance means it's not worthwhile. In the military, they often leave catheters in place to pump local anesthetic into the peripheral nerve block for a couple of days, but they have the benefit of people who are under regulations and meet certain minimum standards. In private practice, most insurance companies won't pay for one, and I don't trust most people to use them correctly even if they were paid for - you can really, really mess someone up with one if it's not managed correctly, and my experience with epidurals (which are the most common place in which continuous infusions of local anesthetics are used) has shown me clearly that a large portion of people just don't understand the idea of not ever moving or disturbing the place where the catheter enters the skin.

      BTW, most people who come out of surgery "changed" are those who have been on cardiopulmonary bypass. It's a known risk.

    19. Re:Midazolam by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      additionally, spinal blocks are difficult and don't always work so well. the anaesthetists are fixated about spinal health, for obvious reasons. they're shooting blind for a tiny area, and if they fuck up, they fuck you up.

      my wife's spinal block wasn't so pretty - it came out patchy, there was still feeling in blotches well below the block. when they turned the dosage up, the block went so high it was in danger of shutting her breathing down.

    20. Re:Midazolam by Khyber · · Score: 1

      How is it a known part of a procedure when the nervous system still isn't fully known?

      We only just RECENTLY obtained a live scan of what happens to your brain when you go under general anesthesia. We're still figuring out the implications.

      Using the best practice available at the time != malpractice.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    21. Re:Midazolam by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "So only someone with a degree can possibly have a valid opinion on whether wrong was done ?"

      When it comes to medicine, yes, which is why we have laws preventing any sort of medical claims or advice without license.

      "That's bullshit, and it is so arrogant that it boggles the mind."

      Okay, I'm throwing you into a room with a patient that needs an immediate brain operation. Have at it.

      "I hope you get terminal cancer soon"

      Thankfully, I've got a genetic disorder that makes me rather unsusceptible to cancer. As a result, however, my life span is rather short. I might have another 20 years if lucky.

      Your anger is palpable. You must be lonely.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  5. These bad memories can be replaced with good ones by oheso · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We would never lie to you. Your tax burden is decreasing in real terms. You like our candidate. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.

  6. skeptical by zhub · · Score: 1

    I'd say the Don't Think About Pink Elephants test soundly contradicts the Autobiographical Think/No-Think procedure. And the basis for their scientific results is each subject's emotional response And I saw nothing to indicate that the study involved actual PDST patients, despite the article's scarcely related photo. .

    1. Re:skeptical by sjames · · Score: 1

      That's why it took some time to figure out. Instead of the obviously un-workable, they have you come up with an emotionally charged (for you) word that makes you think of pink elephants and then they pair that with an emotionally neutral word.

  7. A little worried about this by BluPhenix316 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ok I originally was just going to say something goofy about this but this does have my concerned a little bit. I am a soldier in the US Army and PTSD is a really bad thing. It affects a lot more people than even the media is portraying. The thing is though, most people who get it easily "cope" with it by just talking about the event with people they feel understand it. From that point they use those hard emotions to do positive things. Atleast in the military, they usually become trainers for other people, or even invest that time in artistic ways. This all depends though on the severity of the event. The trend i'm beginning to notice though is that most of the more severe cases of PTSD i've ran across in the military are usually attached to something else though. I'm sure something like this could really benefit the more serious cases of PTSD. On the other hand, for the less serious cases people have acutally used those emotional memories to fuel positive change.

    1. Re:A little worried about this by Seumas · · Score: 1

      The first thing to be concerned with is that we no longer call it "shell shock". That's what people used to call it. But, gosh, that just sounds so harsh and brutal. It's far more comfortable (especially for those of us who don't experience it) to call it something like "post traumatic stress disorder". See, that way it sounds more like something you get from working hard on a project with a quickly approaching deadline that you can prescribe squeezing a stress-ball and taking long walks through a garden to address.

      If we referred to it as "shell-shock", we'd have to confront just how terrible it is. Not just individually, but as a society in the way we treat those we send off to do our dirty work and in the way we treat them when we come back. But that's too much responsibility and bother. So we just give it a disconnected term and assume it's something you'll work through with a "therapist".

  8. Memory sickness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "The Khmer Rouge invented new terms. People were told to "forge" (lot dam) a new revolutionary character, that they were the "instruments" (; opokar) of the ruling body known as "Angkar" (, "The Organization"), and that nostalgia for pre-revolutionary times (chheu satek arom, or "memory sickness") could result in execution."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge#Language_reforms

  9. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind... by yanom · · Score: 1, Insightful

    .. also Total Recall.

    --
    "That's either incredibly asinine or the most brilliant troll I've ever read. Not sure which." -Anonymous Coward
    1. Re:Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind... by jamesh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      .. also Total Recall.

      Isn't this more like the exact opposite of those stories? The characters in those stories seemed to recall feelings of the events but had no other memory. TFA talks about erasing the bad emotions associated with past events, leaving the memory of the event itself intact.

  10. Wool by __Paul__ · · Score: 1

    This sounds very much like the beginning of the saga in Hugh Howie's Wool/Silo series...

    (slight spoilers ahead) ...humanity develops drugs that, in combination with stressful events, allow memories to be suppressed. Unpleasantness follows...

    --
    worldmobilenet.com -- World Prepaid Wireless Internet plans
  11. Risking apathy? by gmuslera · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Our emotions attached to memories is what makes us give them a meaning, a value. Take out that you liked or disliked something and it wont be good or bad, or tasty, or fun. Misused could be as bad as the problem it tries to solve.

    1. Re:Risking apathy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As someone who worked hard in middle school to get rid of all his emotions (due to bullying, depression, worthlessness, etc...) I wouldn't recommend it. Everything is so-so for me. Should I pick this activity over that one? I can't say. One is never better than the other. Why do you want to try XXXX? Because I do... I can't give a reason, I can't say that I enjoy it because I don't. I can't say that I don't want to do that other activity because I don't like it, because I don't. It's difficult to make choices and go through life when you don't hate and/or enjoy anything.

      Sure I don't get angry at anyone/anything and you can't make me mad, but you also lose everything worth living for. Risking apathy isn't worth it to remove bad memories. Take it from a guy who took that trade off to prevent future (now past) bad events.

    2. Re:Risking apathy? by UpnAtom · · Score: 1

      You can't get rid of emotions that way. You're undoubtedly suppressing them, which isn't as bad as it sounds.

      What I'm saying (as a psychotherapist of 16 years) is that you have the opportunity to learn to feel them again as well as resolve and thereby 'delete' the negative ones.

      Just an option. And yeah, school sucks.

  12. Both good for the individual & bad for society by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    PTSD is reassuring for me in a way - if humans were truly naturally murderous beasts, as some would like to insist, PTSD would be very rare or non-existant. But it isn't, and we're not built for heinous acts - more bonobo than chimp, as it were.

    The trick is, if PTSD is 'curable' then there are even fewer consequences for sending in men to do terrible things to other people. We're already learning that the lower the domestic cost of war is, the more politicians engage in it. I don't want veterans to suffer, but this is all headed in the wrong direction.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  13. Re:These bad memories can be replaced with good on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And the weekly chocolate ration has been increased to 20 grams!!!!

  14. Re:Both good for the individual & bad for soci by cfalcon · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Rofl fantastic. You're opposed to medicine because it will make people more willing to fight as well, right?

    Violence is morally neutral. Like all tools, it is how you use it.

  15. Hey know what worked for me? by Mashiki · · Score: 1

    Lot's of booze. Not really kidding, of course the PTSD flashbacks are a bitch at times.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
    1. Re:Hey know what worked for me? by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Flashbacks happen because the events are not integrated. The person who experienced them did not have the emotional or mental framework with which to process them.

      What I find more curious is the people who shot numerous guys in the head when they had no idea why they were really doing it and who now live their life proud of the fact.

      I have met these people, and you would not be able to tell they did this unless they told you. You wouldn't even guess them the type of person who would.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    2. Re:Hey know what worked for me? by Sentrion · · Score: 1

      There's a reason why the armies of the world prefer to field the youngest soldiers to the harshest conditions of the front line. This has been true for all history. Give a 16, 18, or 20 year-old a gun and tell him he's a hero, and he will charge against all hell and fury if you tell him to. Armies that don't care about civil rights, the Geneva Convention, or public opinion prefer even younger soldiers. After a little more time to mature, men in their 30's and 40's tend to be much less enthusiastic about such things, and my presumption excludes those older men who have decided to let themselves go physically.

      As for the other post regarding the "positive" side of PTSD, I think it's worth noting that when the US has been able to engage in war without significant allied casualties the public has been much more accepting. As long as the US sticks to surgical strikes and SEAL team extractions of terrorists and war criminals, the US public will eat it up. Tell the public that we're going to invade with ground forces and occupy a country indefinitely then public support goes down the tubes, as it should. People saw the shell shock of soldiers returning from the Great War, and as such WWI never held a positive image in the American conscious. The horrors of WWII were tolerated because most Americans felt they had done everything to avoid war and were dragged into it. Korean vets experienced flashbacks and Vietnam forced us to recognize PTSD. When you see the suffering and mental torment of the vets returning home your much less likely to support a rush to war. But training and arming 3rd world peasants to kill and maim each other - that's OK.

  16. Goodbye Second Marriage... by theNAM666 · · Score: 1

    and third, and fourth, and...

    --Zsa Zsa & Liz

  17. Heh. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

    Bet Taco'd be happy if I forgot: "The Lone Gunman are Dead."

    --

    "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  18. Re:Both good for the individual & bad for soci by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    Rofl fantastic. You're opposed to medicine because it will make people more willing to fight as well, right?

    If you look up at the subject line, it says that it can be both good for the individual and bad for society. That's a point of moral ambiguity, not opposition.

    Violence is morally neutral. Like all tools, it is how you use it.

    Right, which is why I wrote that it's unfortunate that it's being used to make war more palatable.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  19. Maybe for some people... by axlr8or · · Score: 1

    I hope they don't plan on lumping this into a treatment for depression. Althouh I do remember bad things more than good thigs I can't say its memories that make me depressed. I just am. Have been since I turned 21. This may help some people I would think. Certainly not everyone.

  20. Sexual Assault Victims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    My wife has severe PTSD due to being sexually assaulted by a doctor as a child, and is constantly trying to find better ways to cope and heal now that she's an adult. There are a LOT of victims (as shown yet again today by Joe Pa's trial) that could benefit from therapy like this if it could be effective for even severe trauma like that. Wired had an article about the idea of a pill to help you forget, but this article appears to be more just about therapy than medicine. Unfortunately it also says it was done on non-depressed victims, so I'm not sure how useful this would be to someone who truly has something traumatic in their past they really really want to forget but can't.

    Living with a sexual assault victim, and in the process meeting other victims, and seeing the *profound* affect it can have on someone's life and happiness has drastically changed how I feel about the seriousness that people need to take that kind of crime.

  21. Re:Both good for the individual & bad for soci by BlackSabbath · · Score: 2

    Hey there soldier! Worried about PTSD? Afraid your conscience may interfere with your patriotic duty? No need to worry! With our new treatment you'll never have to worry about flashbacks, or fear that you may have to turn whistleblower. War-crimes trials? No fear. We'll make sure you will always be the most reliable and entirely truthful un-witness.

  22. Re:Both good for the individual & bad for soci by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    PTSD doesn't only apply to soldiers. It can occur after any traumatic event, whether the patient is an auto accident or a victim of a violent crime. In a previous story, doctors and therapists are able to, on a case by case basis, remove the emotional content of the memory of the traumatic event and lessen the crippling psychological symptoms. This is a good thing, whether or not it applies to soldiers and war.

  23. Books by Tyrion+Moath · · Score: 1

    Not to turn this into a book review, but I just started reading the sequel to the Wool series of books by Hugh Howey called First Shift - Legacy, and the concept of purposefully forgetting things is pretty central to the book. Very good reads, both of them.

  24. This is too weird by SlithyMagister · · Score: 2

    I have always been like this.
    I do not remember anything bad that happened to me.
    I can be reminded, and when I am, I remember them in sufficient detail, but in general, I just plain don't.
    One of the the greatest blessings of my existence.

  25. Re:These bad memories can be replaced with good on by Velex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh good god. Fuck your smug, comfy-ass bullshit.

    Do you know how much it scares the shit out of anyone living with me when I wake up screaming, even after the fourth or fifth time?

    So I'm not a veteran and I wasn't abused or anything like that, but it doesn't change when my ex-father attacks me and starts breaking every bone in my body and I wake up screaming. The only reason my subconscious won't let go is because I actually trusted and thought I loved that fundamentalist, racist, delusional, conspiracy-theory-loving piece of crap for 18 years, and then he broke that trust.

    Veterans need this. You think Goatse or Two Girls One Cup can't be unseen?

    I just wake up screaming every now and then if I haven't had my dose of b33r after a couple days. It's nothing more than that.

    I don't even know what real post traumatic stress syndrome is like. I've never seen someone killed, and I've never had to kill someone or be killed myself.

    --
    Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
  26. Re:My bad memory of Steve Ballmer by datavirtue · · Score: 1

    I though you were a little loopy until I saw this:

    Steve and Bill are killers, it gives them sexual pleasure to seek out an unknowing programmer who believes Microsoft can be trusted.

    --
    I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
  27. Re:Both good for the individual & bad for soci by cfalcon · · Score: 1

    War is morally neutral too- again, like violence, you can have just or unjust wars. If you are a pacifist, say so, but it doesn't excuse being opposed to medicine because it will ease the suffering of individuals that you personally don't approve of.

    I mean, do you fucking think for ONE GODDAMNED SECOND that the people in charge are like "well, no, we don't want to go to war, because our soldiers may experience PTSD". You think that's holding them back? It's not like THEY are the ones to make that sacrifice. The correct ways to eliminate unnecessary wars involve education, empathy, transparency, and I would argue a spirit of brotherly love, even with those who share different values. It sure as fuck isn't "Maybe the men serving the nations could suffer more? That's cool, right? I mean, they are willing to sacrifice themselves for vague concepts like "country" and in some cases the financial interest of fucking organizations, maybe they could sacrifice even MORE somehow, and that would make tragedies less likely to happen."

    1)- War isn't always wrong.
    2)- Violence isn't always wrong.
    3)- Abolition of suffering is always moral.
    4)- Principles aside, your opinion is empty practically as well.

    If you think I'm being a bit over the top, or maybe coming across rude, it is because I despise everything you've said in this thread here with every ounce of my being, and disagree with it profoundly.

  28. Re:Both good for the individual & bad for soci by dan14807 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    PTSD is reassuring for me in a way - if humans were truly naturally murderous beasts, as some would like to insist, PTSD would be very rare or non-existant.

    Read On Killing. Only psychopaths can kill without emotional consequences. People are naturally opposed to killing when it comes to dealing with members of the same species. Men can hunt and kill a deer. That's instinct. When confronting other humans, the instinct is to posture or submit. Same applies to most other mammals.

  29. This is new? by Murdoc · · Score: 1

    I'm glad that the rest of the psychology community is catching up. We've been doing this with NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) for at least a decade. Just look up NLP and trauma.

    --
    Our ignorance is not so vast as our failure to use what we know. - M. King Hubbert
  30. Alcohol by CAIMLAS · · Score: 3, Informative

    Meanwhile, this is really nothing new: Alcoholics figured it out thousands of years ago. Mastadon trample your kids? The chieftan fucking your wo-man? The bastards in Sales pissing you off? Great, have a fucking drink.

    --
    ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  31. Re:Clear by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

    Scientology is big on confronting painful memories, instead of repressing them or forgetting about them as advocated in this article. That's what a "clear" is, someone who has confronted all his painful memories ("engrams") and is no longer affected by them.

    Problem arises when someone confronts (or "runs") his painful memories, and he doesn't get any better. They have an answer for this too -- they look for an "earlier similar" incident and run that. The theory is that a later incident will lock on top of a similar incident which happened earlier, and the later one will not erase until the earlier one has been confronted.

    So what happens is that they end up running whole chains of similar incidents, going back further and further until they find the earliest one. And more often then not, they end up running incidents that happened before the guy was born. (past life incidents)

    Now, since there is no such thing as past lives, and modern science has proven that a person's consciousness begins at birth and ends when the brain dies, Scientology and Hubbard have been shown to be a quackery and a sham.

  32. Forgetting Bad Memories by Sentrion · · Score: 1

    So, that's what the GOP has been putting into the water.

  33. Re:Both good for the individual & bad for soci by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    Read On Killing

    Thanks. Just added it to my list.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  34. Re:Both good for the individual & bad for soci by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2

    it doesn't excuse being opposed to medicine

    Yeah, that's the second time you've tried that. I don't think anybody at home is going to be confused by conflating the two issues. In case you really don't get it I'll try again: it can't be the right thing to do to treat the individual, but it's still bad for society.

    mean, do you fucking think for ONE GODDAMNED SECOND that the people in charge are like "well, no, we don't want to go to war, because our soldiers may experience PTSD".

    There are absolutely political calculations, including domestic response/approval that goes into a decision to go to war. Wounded veterans (physically or mentally) is a big part of that. You're either ignorant or foolish if you think all non-defensive wars don't get political consideration and that the actual prosecution of the wars, once started, isn't influenced by political calculations dependent on the status quo.

    If you think I'm being a bit over the top, or maybe coming across rude, it is because I despise everything you've said in this thread here with every ounce of my being, and disagree with it profoundly.

    Get ahold of yourself. Emotional outbursts aren't impressive or persuasive.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  35. Re:Both good for the individual & bad for soci by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    it can't be the right thing to do to treat the individual, but it's still bad for society.

    err ... sloppy editing/proofreading. Sorry 'bout that. Once more:

    it can be the right thing to do to treat the individual, but also still bad for society.

    there, almost valid English.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  36. That was abuse. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So I'm not a veteran and I wasn't abused or anything like that, but it doesn't change when my ex-father attacks me and starts breaking every bone in my body and I wake up screaming.

    That was abuse - very severe physical abuse.

    It's quite smart of you to not want to base your identity on being a victim and wallowing in your past, but then again, I don't think you shouldn't be afraid to call it for what it was.

    1. Re:That was abuse. by Calydor · · Score: 1

      Sounds more to me like he's describing events in a dream, not actual events in his past. That's not to say his ex-father didn't at one point beat him up, the rest of the post suggests that may have happened, but he wasn't suffering daily physical as I understand it.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
  37. Midazolam : Been there done that. by isopropanol · · Score: 2

    Had it for a follow-up orthopedic surgery where they had to ask me how it feels (beyond just it hurts). Don't remember it.

  38. Re:Both good for the individual & bad for soci by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Dude, this is just evil. If you're opposed to a particular war, deal with that in the voting booth, and accept that sometimes your side is going to lose. Don't take it out on soldiers with PTSD, who are fairly powerless in this situation. Do you also think there's a moral problem with the use of medicine to heal soldiers' physical wounds, because a higher body count would help build opposition to a war you disagree with? I'm sorry, that's unpatriotic and evil.

  39. my anecdotal experience by jsh1972 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In early 2010, my wife and I were living in the asshole of the world (port Arthur, tx), when one night a woman (I use that term loosely here) came by the house around 1 am with three men she had been riding around and smoking crack with. Hearing a knock on the door, I went to see who it was, as soon as I was unlatching it because I recognized her, the three other guys rushed in and started what turned out to be a marathon torture fest/home invasion robbery. I was pistol whipped severely,threatened with homosexual rape, forced to watch as my wife was actually raped, beaten so severely my skull has a four inch fracture on the back of me head. Finally they stomped me into unconsciousness, and left. Their take? A busted up msi lappy with a cracked LCD.shortly after, we changed cities. There are still nights that I lay awake, every little sound I hear outside is in my mind them having found my new home and come for retaliation (charges were pressed- aggravated assault, they had priors, bye bye)... I'll lay awake for hours imagining them flanking my house, rushing in through front and rear doors and proceeding to fuck my shit up big time. Do I still suffer from the experience? Of course. Would I erase memories of it? Not necessarily, who knows, I might revert to my former trusting self and get fucked over again. It's not fun to have to assess strangers as potential threats before anything else, but I have a very healthy feel for people with hidden agendas now.

    1. Re:my anecdotal experience by SternisheFan · · Score: 3, Informative

      Firstly, my sincere congratulations, and respect, to you and your wife, for surviving that ordeal. I won't go into my story here, no need. You two were able to see justice via the court system, an ordeal in itself, not every innocent victim gets to have that chance, and that outcome. When bad things happen to people, you are no longer the person you once were, you are now changed forever by the experience. No going back. My advice: Theres a lot of good in this life, though sometimes you need to look for it. Accept that you've been changed, but do not allow it to turn you bitter. If you do, it's allowing those who commited the crime to still have control, which will keep you a 'victim'. That is what you CAN control. Good luck to you and all other 'former' victims, with moving forward in your lives. And , one more thought. "Don't let the bastards of life determine the outcome of your life. Don't allow them that power." ;-)Firstly, my sincere congratulations, and respect, to you and your wife, for surviving that ordeal. I won't go into my story here, no need. You two were able to see justice via the court system, an ordeal in itself, not every innocent victim gets to have that chance, and that outcome. When bad things happen to people, you are no longer the person you once were, you are now changed forever by the experience. No going back. My advice: Theres a lot of good in this life, though sometimes you need to look for it. Accept that you've been changed, but do not allow it to turn you bitter. If you do, it's allowing those who commited the crime to still have control, which will keep you a 'victim'. That is what you CAN control. Good luck to you and all other 'former' victims, with moving forward in your lives. And , one more thought. "Don't let the bastards of life determine the outcome of your life. Don't allow them that power." ;-) We are stronger than we realize. It takes time to see that.

    2. Re:my anecdotal experience by UpnAtom · · Score: 1

      To echo some of what the other guy said, you've been through a truly horrible experience and I'm genuinely sorry about that. You probably feel responsible even though anyone would do the same in your position.

      It's not wrong to mostly trust people you know. This kind of thing happens rarely.

      With the right kind of help, you can end some of these symptoms. I'd treat you and your wife for free if you're able to get to England.

      Congratulations for putting them behind bars.

  40. baiting the troll? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'd imagine that such pedantry, mixed with anger and a great deal of physical scar tissue makes you quite a lonely man. I am overwhelmed by your fervor over an opinion of impression on an open forum. Such a display drove me to question your mental state, for it certainly isn't well adjusted.

    You take pride in your hardship, though it was difficult on you. It proves something to you or about you. Anyone that takes away from that in part or whole is a threat to your already shattered emotional state. And thus you attack.

    Should this not be enlightening enough the reason why I am AC may be: if you think major surgery is difficult, think of people that do it to themselves, without anesthesia, all because the horror feels better than their state of mind. Depression is a helluva thing and it appears you are at high risk of it.

    1. Re:baiting the troll? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "I'd imagine that such pedantry, mixed with anger and a great deal of physical scar tissue makes you quite a lonely man."

      check it out, another armchair psychiatrist.

      I'm married, fool. Not lonely at all.

      "You take pride in your hardship, though it was difficult on you. It proves something to you or about you. Anyone that takes away from that in part or whole is a threat to your already shattered emotional state. And thus you attack."

      No, armchair fool, I defend the integrity of a profession from laypeople that would open their mouths and discredit that which they're not qualified to talk about. It'd be like me coming into your bedroom and telling you how to fuck your wife (although I know my sex pretty well, which is why I work in a sex shop, so that's a kind of moot argumentative point.)

      "Should this not be enlightening enough the reason why I am AC may be: if you think major surgery is difficult, think of people that do it to themselves, without anesthesia, all because the horror feels better than their state of mind."

      Like I did resetting my own foot, bracing it, and letting it heal when I got a Lis Franc fracture? You assume I've never done this shit myself, child. You're a fool.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  41. Re:Both good for the individual & bad for soci by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

    > If you're opposed to a particular war, deal with that in the voting booth,

    That reminds me of that old cliche:

    The 5 boxes of liberty: The Soap Box, the Mail Box, the Ballot Box, the Jury Box, and the Ammunition Box. Please use them in that order.

  42. Re:Both good for the individual & bad for soci by para_droid · · Score: 1

    Only psychopaths can kill without emotional consequences.

    Are you still a psychopath if you don't feel anything for killing someone who threatened your life, as I had to?

    Yes.

    What if you're against killing except in self-defense, still feel empathy for those who don't threaten your life, but don't feel empathy for those who do threaten your life?

    Yup.

  43. Re:Both good for the individual & bad for soci by Biotech_is_Godzilla · · Score: 1

    I'm definitely no expert on this, but I've heard from people who claim to know what they're talking about that PTSD has nothing to do with being freaked out by killing others, and everything to do with the fear of your own death or the fear of a loss of control over your own life. Not sure how the two things can be separated, but apparently they can, and no one seems to have any problem with killing, as long as they feel it's justified . It's the immediate exposure to death that makes you think of your own mortality, leading to PTSD. Allegedly.

  44. PTSD is very treatable by UpnAtom · · Score: 1

    EMDR has already shown efficacy for PTSD and at least one study has strongly implied EFT works too.

    A colleague of mine, Andrew Austin, teaches an expanded model of EMDR called IEFT. He found something very interesting: that flashbacks were not to moments where eg the sufferer saw their friend die but rather to a moment where they felt responsible, where they wish they'd made a different choice. Typically, this was on an irrational basis where the eg a different choice would probably have made no difference, or relied upon non-existent prior knowledge.

    Also worth pointing out that the so-called creator of EMDR stole it from John Grinder and never credits him.

    It's possible that forgetting the trauma as suggested by the submission might make it worse. As a psychotherapist, I've treated people with repressed abuse and it can come out in the form of weird nightmares and disturbing emotional reactions in daily life.

    1. Re:PTSD is very treatable by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

      Concur. I have seen some very positive outcome from EMDR.

  45. Reminds me of Reiki by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 1

    Reminds me a bit of Reiki practices (cultish quack medicine some relatives are caught up in). They word it in pseudo-scientific crap, but trying to change the emotional baggage associated with memories seems to be an important part of Reiki (but again, I only have tangential experience).

  46. Breakthrough Findings? by dave562 · · Score: 1

    Therapists have been doing this Neuro-Linguistic Programming for decades at this point.

    What is old is new again?

  47. Re:Clear by mug+funky · · Score: 1

    an online survey. the "age" field is very comprehensive on this point.

  48. Re:Both good for the individual & bad for soci by beguyld · · Score: 1

    Abolition of suffering is always moral.

    Not necessarily. As a trivial case, think of allowing children to reap the natural results of their actions. Removing the suffering in the short term can be extremely harmful to someone in the long term. So some context is needed. Often well-meaning removal of short-term suffering can make things much worse over the longer term. The last 20 years or so of child-rearing theories have resulted in a lot of self-centered brats and parents pandering to 3 year old tyrants. That is most certainly NOT going to serve those children as adults. They will have a hard time with their bosses not thinking that their egos are the center of the universe.

    Addiction is another example. Trying to remove the suffering which is a natural result of the addict's poor choices early on may mean they continue in a manner which really destroys their life, and even kills them. The sooner they 'get' that their choices are causing their suffering, and are willing to accept help to address the real issue, the better. One can easily contribute to a life-time of suffering and a horrible death by removing an addict's suffering which is due to his/her own choices. (for example, providing money, food, etc. often means just more money available for drugs...)

    Life is more complicated than simple rules can represent.

  49. Re:What I need by neminem · · Score: 1

    They've been making that drug for at least five thousand years. It's called "alcohol". (Works on guys, too!)