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HP Releases More WebOS Components for the TouchPad
About two months ago, HP made the first source releases of webOS components. Conspicuously absent, however, were the sources to the Luna system manager, and it was not possible to build an image for the TouchPad with what was available. On Tuesday, the webOS team released the Luna sources and build tools as "webOS Community Edition." This is a continuation of their previous source releases, and is intended only for the TouchPad; Open webOS is still slated for release in September and will be designed for porting to new hardware platforms. Quoting the developers: "With the release of the webOS Community Edition you can now learn how the TouchPad works, modify your TouchPad experience and then apply that learning to Open webOS 1.0 in the future. We are excited to empower the community to create custom user experiences on the TouchPad. For example, developers can now modify the card view, launcher, notifications, Just Type and more." You can grab the latest over at Github. The developers claim you can build and install it onto actual hardware: anyone want to give it a shot?
now they release it??
This release should help CyanogenMod (and CyanogenMod should help customization of this release).
Will this help the Android guys get the camera to work?
Does anyone plan on building a webOS device at this point? If not, why does this matter?
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
Need I say more ?
A fusion between Open WebOS and CyanogenMod would truly *wonderful*, but would require a fuck hell of work (and could get some help from Ubuntu...)
On one hand, this would help bring together the big popular eco-system of Android and the really marvelous "stack-of-cards" based interface of Web OS (i've been using a Pre phone almost since it release in europe and i really love it). Also under the hood, WebOS is full fledged Linux system.
With that Cyanogen would will have a truly wonderful UI, with which it could compete with other Android implementation using custom UI. (like HTC's device using HTC sense instead of the default Android UI). And WebOS could get access to the much successful world of android applications.
On the other hand these OSes are quite different beasts. Android is basically Linux kernel with a custom userland using a few standard embed libraries/utilites, but mostly a huge Android-specific runtime written in Java and running on their own Dalvik (java-like [or java-infringing if you listen to Oracle's BS]) virtual machine. webOS is mostly GNU/Linux : linux kernel, on pretty much standard user land (including DEB-like package management. Really similar to lots of other embed Linux distributions), with the exception of Luna, the graphic UI which was released today and which instead of the usually Xserver + GTK and/or QT, is DirectFB + a special custom Webkit powered "card" interface.
Now that would be in a way interesting for the Android community: propelling Android away from its former "feature-phone" Linux+Java roots into a realm of state-of-the art GNU/Linux OSes (like Maemo, like also small projects like OpenMoko). (I mean nowaday Android *IS* a real smartphone OS. *BUT* it is dissimilar from regular GNU/Linux OSes found elsewhere in the Linux ecosystem).
But that require quite some adaptation and connection between the functionnality and facilities of Android and Luna.
Note that such effort are already underway.
Long time ago, canonical has already demonstrated an Android 1.x running above stock Ubuntu and thus enabling regular Android APP to run on Ubuntu machines.
Recently Canonical has also toyed with the idea of dual-function android smartphone: it's a regular android phone when in your pocket. But there's a full fledged Ubuntu running once the smartphone is connect over HDMI to a real monitor (or docked in brainless-laptop à la AlwaysInnovating's TouchBook).
What helps is that the android-specific modifications (already all the special IPC stuff, but not the yet all the power-saving stuff) are getting incorporated into the 3.x series of linux kernels, so running stock ubuntu on a opensource android is easily possible (albeit with a shorter battery life).
And for the record: WebOS use a rather stock kernel (except for power saving features) so the Open WebOS is supposed to target modern linux 3.x kernels (sans the power saving features). So at least kernel wise open webos + android are as possible as the current android + ubuntu mixes experiments.
What really needs to be done is "only" to get the android parts to "talk" with the open web os parts. But as said, work from canonical could be leveraged here.
(For the record as WebOS is pretty much standard GNU/Linux without much customisation beside power-usage reduction, there are experiments to get Debian and Ubuntu running on webOS devices *along* webos, or at least on devices with enough flash to hold the desktop OS partition)
So an "open webos + android" combo done by collaborating CyanogenMod and WebOS internals teams (with help from canonical) would be really awesome.
But I'm not holding my breath.
(an even more crazy idea would be to get a few of the surviving openmoko guys involved: I mean they managed to do some rather crazy optimisation to get the FreeRunner to boot from several minutes down to mere seconds, and they try to create a standard framework for telephony applications over FreeSmartphone.org but that is probably just useless dreams. webos+android is cool enough).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Saddly, no.
Luna is only the GUI (DirectFB + OpenGL ES + a WebKit based "card" interface).
The webcam lies into the custom kernel used by web OS devices (I don't how much of the camera is an opensource dirvers visible in the kernel patches and how much is a binary-only module), and perhaps a few specific libraries (probably not opensourced yet).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
I never own a touch-pad so I do not know how the thing functions or what's so special about it
Just wonder if there's anything from this "community release" that can be adapted to other Open-Source project - such as window-manager for Linux, or something like that?
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
It matters because :
- that gives an upgrade path for current webos device owner to see updates to their device even if only as a small comunity of enthousiats (kind of how OpenMoko is still seeing some development around the FreeRunner and its FreeSmartphone.org-based SHR OS. Its small, slow paced, community driven. But it's *there* !)
- webOS GUI is really nice and really does serve well portable devices like tablets and smartphone. much better multitasking than anything else. also nice concepts of apps build around HTML5+Javascript (even Microsoft is toying with the idea in Metro). Opensourcing Luna (i.e.: the GUI itself) is interesting because that means that the GUI could be incorporated back into Android, although that would require a lot of work. But would give to Cyanogen and the Like a really nice and interesting interface which could compete against other such custom interfaces sitting above Android (like HTC's Sense UI).
In short: somewhat merging Open webOS (or at least Luna) and Android would bring a real interesting iOS- / Windows- killer (well, ahem, as if Windows 8 RT needed any efforts in killing...)
- maybe some enthousiats groups will release newer hardware for open web os. I mean openmoko is a really small comunity, and that hasn't stopped the people at golden delicious to design build and ship a hardware upgrade for the freerunner (a newer mobo based around an OMAP similar to what is found in WebOS devices, most android phones and most iphones).
- just look at the GP32, GP2X, Pandora, and the like : a project doesn't need multi-million shipped device to thrive. a small community of enthousiasts is more than enough to keep it alive. and web os has a small comunity of dedicated enthousiast. just look at the official webos app store, or even at the open-source homebrew app store. that's a tremendous production of apps for a platform that is so much dwarfed by the number of Android and iOS devices.
- Who knows, it an Android/open webOS hybrid is well done (please CyanogenMod, please! start collaborating with WebOS internals to make it happen), some smaller device maker might be interested into picking it up. (I mean stock CyanogenMod has already been approached by some manufacturer).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
The closer to a gnu userspace the better. Android may have the linux kernel, but it doesn't come close to the hackability of a maemo device. With maemo dead, maybe webos will get us something better than android to start with.
And why not fusing them together to get the best of both worlds? Leverage the big ecosystem of android, while take advantage of the awesome GUI and better GNU/Linux of open webOS ?
Recently the Android peculiar stuff (all of the IPC, although not all the power-saving optimisation) is being backported into the stock kernel. Free-source android can run on a stock Linux 3x. kernel (although with worse battery life).
Palm didn't optimize much beside power-saving, thus open webos should be able to run on stock Linux 3.x kernels too (thats one of their target) - althoug with worse battery life too.
Canonical dual-mode device (an android smartphone when in your pocket, but a full fledged Ubuntu ARM desktop when plugged to a monitor over HDMI) has show that it is possible to get an (almost) stock GNU/Linux OS running above an (almost) stock Android.
Thus with some work, open webOS could be made to run along Android.
Run all the existing Android apps, but get the nice modern multitasking capable UI of Luna's card based interface, and get the ability to develop easily HTML5+Javascript apps thanks to Luna and Enyo frameworks.
That can be a killer feature which could interest a lot of current webos internal developpers, and potential Chinese/Korean/Eastern European manufacturers. It would help them distinguish from regular Android machines.
(Just like HTC is trying to distinguish themself with their own custom UI - HTC Sense).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
WebOS using a more standard kernel and Android having it's modified kernel interfaces its darn near impossible for them to make the port
Well as a side note: the Android-specifics (all of the IPC, not yet the power-saving) is being incorporated into mainline linux kernel 3.x.
This has enabled stuff like canonical experiment with dual-mode smartphones (android while in your pocked, full fledged ubuntu desktop when connected over HDMI to a real monitor) using stock kernel, android and ubuntu, save for some modification to make both OS talk to each other.
This won't help getting the legacy 2.6.5 module run on modern 3.x-based androids or open webos. But this gives hope for a kernel 3.x-based android+open webos hybrid.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
webOS. Pretty soon you'll have to Google that in order to remember what it meant. Too little too late. --Josh (former Palm developer)
since the Davlik VM is both open source and has been through the legal and patent mill, there shouldn't be any impediment to adding it to any other OS.
Well there's one single big one:
- Android use its very own inter-process communication (IPC), instead of relying on some more standard message passing interfaces (like DBus)
- Part of this system is baked into the kernel.
Thus currently you can only run Android:
- On one of the linux older specially patched 2.6.x kernel that google designed.
- On more recent linux kernel 3.x where anrdoid specifics are slowly getting integrated into the mainline kernel (the IPC part. the power saving features are still missing).
- There was an old attempt from canonical to rip the kernel specific part of an Android 1.x and put them into userland, enabling Android app to be ran in a window inside ubuntu.
On anything else, it will require some rewritting in order to provide the missing facilities.
(That's probably what RIM has done given that their OS is QNX based and not Linux based).
Otherwise you can only run stand alone application that don't interract with the rest of the system at all.
But it should possible to slap Android with minimal customising on anything based on recent Android-enabled linux kernel.
It's been done on Ubuntu. It could be done on Maemo, on OpenMoko's SHR, etc. or open WebOS.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
About two months ago, HP made the first source releases of webOS components. I don't think they can do it.
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"Open source" is fairly meaningless.
They can finally differentiate themselves from all the other Android clone makers!
Wait, someone just told me Nokia hasn't been making android phones for the past four years. That seems wrong somehow.
I mean, if they hadn't been making android devices, wouldn't they have been losing tons of market share all this time?
I've given up on the camera,
I have a close friend whom works at HP and specifically on the WebOS project in the open source efforts. Everything I have heard has been positive.
While there are lots of people leaving WebOS, the ones they are bringing on and keeping are rewriting libraries so that everything can be open sourced. It sounds like it is a pretty large effort.
So many short-sighted comments.
Re: "You're stupid for wanting a touchpad running webOS instead of Brand X/Product Y"
Answer: that's like saying you're stupid because you actually trusted Facebook, Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, or any other large web-oriented company to not fuck with you by turning your browsing habits into money. But we'll put the name-calling aside for right now, let's focus on the rest of this.
Re: "It's gotta run Android!"
Answer: no, it doesn't. You can if you want to, but that's like using a sports car to haul a mound of fill dirt to your back yard. In the end, it works, but it isn't a good fit, and you're stuck cleaning out the hatchback area. Different tools and platforms for different needs. In my case, Android doesn't cut it.
Re: "WebOS is Dead"
Answer: so are a lot of technologies that are still being used today. If by dead you mean, "not cutting edge", "not trendy", "not supported", then yes, it is all three. But for a supposedly dead device, my 16Gb unit continues to be useful to me, continues to work, and will do so well into the future, even after the batteries have died.
Re: "Why bother (developing with the software)?"
Answer: because the Android System UI experience is crufty, inconsistent, and showing its age. Another way to look at it - look at all the comments about combining Luna with Android to improve the interface. If it didn't have merit, then why are so many people fascinated by it?
Re: "It's junk"
Answer: so are a lot of crappy no-name 7" tablets that have been pouring out of Taiwan and Mainland China. The difference is, my crappy HP tablet has a bigger screen, and isn't running an ancient version of Android.
Re: "Android is better"
Answer: Subjective, anything that you use is going to be "better", because you already had an in-built bias when you purchased the device. I'm sure that the iPad owners out there feel the same way about their device as well. Having been GIVEN an iPad 2 as a reward, I gave the device to my wife, and prefer my webOS tablet because I can actually get things done with it, and the iPad 2 seemed to be a "consumption" device that was meant as a head-end for other things, instead of a device that could be press-ganged into doing my bidding. The majority of comments here are about people who bought the touchpad with the express purpose of running a version of Android on top of it, instead of using webOS. I've seen HP tablets running CyanogenMod, and I've seen what running this is like - both the good and bad - and my preference stays where it is.
Re: "No-one will develop a device for this"
Answer: How do you know? Can you predict the future? For that matter, do you really believe that hundreds of thousands of webOS tablet owners are going to sit around forever stuck on HP webOS 3.0.5 when there is a vibrate open-source project providing updates - and thus, a path "out" of obsolescence?
Re: "I rooted it before doing project X with it"
Answer: please don't say that, that's like the 1995 version of "I'm a 1337 haxxor dude". Enabling the well-known, well-documented developer mode is not "rooting" it. FFS, the whole "root webOS" concept is an inside joke for the remaining webOS community; everyone knows you can get a SSH session installed, running, and connected over WiFi in about 20 minutes with some instructions. People walking up to experienced webOS users and saying "can you root it" are acting, well, less than well informed, and it's painful to keep from snickering at them. In the meantime, getting full device access on the vast majority of android devices requires some kind of exploit software kit to be run that injects a shell along with what amounts to a sudo command so you can get root access. While there are several such kits designed to allow you to break into the device easily, I find this to be hardly "hack-friendly". Then again, do you want to get things done with your device, or do you want to fight it to get things done with it?
I have an iPad 2 and a TouchPad. The only way I'd ever buy an Android tablet is if I could install webOS on it instead. So, as far as viable alternatives outside of the Apple ecosystem, I'm looking forward to what becomes of webOS.