7,000 Irish e-Voting Machines To Be Scrapped

lampsie writes "You may recall from back in January 2012 that the Irish government had deemed their stock of 7,000 e-voting machines 'worthless.' Turns out they are not — after spending upwards of €54 million purchasing them almost a decade ago, all 7,000 will now be scrapped for €70,000 (just over nine Euros each). The machines were scrapped because 'they could not be guaranteed to be safe from tampering [...] and they could not produce a printout so that votes/results could be double-checked.'"

Comments

chéad phost

[Anonymous Coward]

chéad phost

Re:chéad phost

[Hognoxious]

chéad mÃle iomarcaÃochtaÃ

Fuck off, Legolas.

awwwww

[slashmydots]

Daaaaamn, what a waste, considering people have proven you can run Tetris on them. They could have had a whole arcade.

How Difficult Is It Really?

[AnotherAnonymousUser]

As a question for the geeks and engineers of the community - how truly difficult is it to make one of these voting machines safe for use? Is there something I'm missing that would make it difficult to have a kiosk with an imaged system that's been certified, locked down, and can print out results, without it being easy to tamper with or easy to fudge the numbers of? It seems like this is something that engineers could have designed to be foolproof by now, and at a fraction of the budget. How truly complex is the problem they're trying to solve?

Re:How Difficult Is It Really?

[pegasustonans]

How truly complex is the problem they're trying to solve?

Nothing that an old-fashioned optical scan ballot couldn't handle.

In other words, using the machine was a solution looking for a problem (and causing numerous problems of its own).

Re:How Difficult Is It Really?

[alteridem]

I believe it is actually more difficult than it would appear, mainly because you need to give people access to the machine to enter the candidates and when you do that, you are potentially giving them access to do other things. That said, the problem is not insurmountable. I would suggest open-sourcing the software and the hardware design. There are enough people that are interested in this problem that I expect that it would be well supported and potential security flaws found and fixed quickly. It would also greatly reduce the development costs. We would still need companies and governments to work together to build and certify the machines, but everyone could be working off a common, open blueprint.

Re:How Difficult Is It Really?

[Confusedent]

Here's what Schneier said about it in 2004:

"Computer security experts are unanimous on what to do. (Some voting experts disagree, but I think we’re all much better off listening to the computer security experts. The problems here are with the computer, not with the fact that the computer is being used in a voting application.) And they have two recommendations:

DRE machines must have a voter-verifiable paper audit trails (sometimes called a voter-verified paper ballot). This is a paper ballot printed out by the voting machine, which the voter is allowed to look at and verify. He doesn’t take it home with him. Either he looks at it on the machine behind a glass screen, or he takes the paper and puts it into a ballot box. The point of this is twofold. One, it allows the voter to confirm that his vote was recorded in the manner he intended. And two, it provides the mechanism for a recount if there are problems with the machine.

Software used on DRE machines must be open to public scrutiny. This also has two functions. One, it allows any interested party to examine the software and find bugs, which can then be corrected. This public analysis improves security. And two, it increases public confidence in the voting process. If the software is public, no one can insinuate that the voting system has unfairness built into the code. (Companies that make these machines regularly argue that they need to keep their software secret for security reasons. Don’t believe them. In this instance, secrecy has nothing to do with security.)

Computerized systems with these characteristics won’t be perfect -- no piece of software is -- but they’ll be much better than what we have now. We need to start treating voting software like we treat any other high-reliability system. The auditing that is conducted on slot machine software in the U.S. is significantly more meticulous than what is done to voting software. The development process for mission-critical airplane software makes voting software look like a slapdash affair. If we care about the integrity of our elections, this has to change."

Source.

Re:How Difficult Is It Really?

[EnergyScholar]

It's really, really difficult to secure electronic voting machines and the associated system. Close to impossible. Worse, what's the point? Seriously, electronic voting does nothing new, and adds many new vectors for systemic fraud. It's a losing proposition, unless you wish to defraud the voting system, in which case it's a win.

Re:How Difficult Is It Really?

[Skapare]

Electronic voting speeds up the results. But it's only the new media that wants that.

The design I proposed was a triple path election system. There would be simple machines to vote at that produce three "results": paper, storage, and communication. But it is the paper result that counts. The stored results (on a CF card) are just for verification. The communicated results are just for the media. The paper result is actually handed to the voter. It will be printed in clear text with the names of who they voted for, and a bar code or QR code to checksum the vote. They take the paper over to the ballot box area. But first, the paper is scanned by a reader right there. Then the paper is inserted into the sealed ballot box. The scanner also stores results and transmits these results separately, which are cross checked. The official results will be the paper count. But the electronic results satisfy the media hunger for instant answers.

Re:How Difficult Is It Really?

[TapeCutter]

If they can seal an ATM, they can seal a voting machine. This truly isn't rocket science.

No it's not rocket science, nor is it ATM science. Learn how and why the traditional paper systems work and one day you may understand why the quote above is 'not even wrong'.

This method is used in Sweden for example, and conducted as follows. The voter casts three ballots, one for each of the three elections (national, regional, and local), each in a sealed envelope. The party and candidate names are pre-printed on the ballot, or the voter can write them in on a blank ballot. When voting has finished, all envelopes are opened on the counting table, for one election at a time. They are sorted in piles according to party, inspecting them for validity. The piles are then counted manually, while witnesses around the table observe. The count is recorded, and the same pile is counted again. If the results do not agree, it is counted a third time. When all piles are counted and the results agree, the result is certified and transmitted for central tabulation. The count as received is made public, to allow anyone to double-check the tabulation and audit the raw data. There appears to be a high level of confidence in this system among the population, as evidenced by the lack of criticism of it." - Shamelessly C&P from WP.

The last sentance in the quote hits the nail on the head, elections are about trust, anyone who thinks electronic voting is a good idea should be asking themselves what "problem" are they "solving"?

use the same system for slot machines

[Joe_Dragon]

use the same system for slot machines
they go under lots of testing to make them hard to cheat them even to the point of shocking them.

Re:use the same system for slot machines

[rtfa-troll]

Nobody actually knows how hard this is since nobody has ever actually succeeded in doing it, despite the fact that many people have tried. Here is another example:

use the same system for slot machines they go under lots of testing to make them hard to cheat them even to the point of shocking them.

This is one of the standard examples, the other given is bank machines. The average engineer/computer scientest will tell you this every time up to the stage of actually starting voting machine companies and spending millions on delivering machines which fail to be sufficiently secure. Just think about how much more hostile the voting machine environment

• if you cheat a slot machine you can get a few hundred dollars - if you beat a voting machine you can controll F22 contracts worth US$66.7 billion
• slot machines are run in an environemnt where you can watch the users - watching voters is illegal
• you can see who wins on your slot machine and almost nobody cares - voters are supposed to be anonymous
• slot machines are essentially static; the money is put in and taken out in the bar - voting machines have to be distributed to many locations
• your slot machine will still earn money even if it is completely emptied several times a year - a voting machine only needs to lose once

It's true that the slot Las Vegas slot machine program is much better than any current voting machine goes through. That is outrageous. However, don't think that if you did follow the Las Vegas system that would be enough.

Re:use the same system for slot machines

[khendron]

I pay my bills online.
I do my banking online.
I order my shopping online...

And all those activities are the target of a significant amount of fraud. It is tolerated, though, because the savings outweigh the costs. You can't say the same for an election.

That depends on your limitations

[Casandro]

Building a voting computer which satisfies the demands for a democratic election is near impossible.
Since fraud needs to be detectable even by single uneducated voters, there minimum security would be like this:

1. Get at least 80% of your voters a degree in Mathematics and Cryptology. They need to be able to verify all the algorithms used in the process.
2. Get at least 80% of your voters fluent in reading machine code off microscope images of ROM chips.
3. Get at least 80% of your voters good at re-engineering micro controller systems from silicon up in a reasonable timespan. (e.g. 30 minutes, this might require genetic engineering)
4. Develop a form of computing device which is transparent.

The big point is, it's not enough if we have some "perfect" voting computer which 10 specialists attest to be "perfect". For a democratic election everybody who is allowed to vote must be able to check the system for fraud. With a simple pen and paper system that is trivial. You just sit at the polling station, check that only single sheets are handed out to the voters. You also check that the voting urn is empty when the voting starts and that everybody just puts in his single sheet into it. Then you check the counting for miscounts and people trying to hide votes. The total number of votes can be compared in different ways.

So everybody involved in it can check it. There is no secret knownledge involved. You can come up with the points I just wrote by yourself. You can even find the points I was missing. That's the minimum standard for voting systems, and it can be settled by the cheapest way to conduct elections, pen and paper. Why on earth should we spend a lot of money for much worse systems?

Re: Chad?

[rnturn]

Texas and Florida are probably submitting bids at this very moment.