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GPS Spoofing Attack Hacks Drones

Rambo Tribble writes "The BBC is reporting that researchers from the University of Texas at Austin managed to hack an experimental drone by spoofing GPS signals. Theoretically, this would allow the hackers to direct the drone to coordinates of their choosing. 'The spoofed drone used an unencrypted GPS signal, which is normally used by civilian planes, says Noel Sharkey, co-founder of the International Committee for Robot Arms Control. "It's easy to spoof an unencrypted drone. Anybody technically skilled could do this - it would cost them some £700 for the equipment and that's it," he told BBC News. "It's very dangerous - if a drone is being directed somewhere using its GPS, [a spoofer] can make it think it's somewhere else and make it crash into a building, or crash somewhere else, or just steal it and fill it with explosives and direct somewhere. But the big worry is — it also means that it wouldn't be too hard for [a very skilled person] to work out how to un-encrypt military drones and spoof them, and that could be extremely dangerous because they could turn them on the wrong people."

214 comments

  1. Black Ops II by protodevilin · · Score: 1, Funny

    IRL?

    1. Re:Black Ops II by von_rick · · Score: 1

      How long before someone hacks into one of these drones to scribble "Happy birthday grandpa" in the sky? Granted that the drones don't have white fumes, but it'd still be pretty cool.

      --

      Face your daemons!

    2. Re:Black Ops II by cayenne8 · · Score: 2
      Hmm...wonder when there'll be a YouTube video out on how to do this...?

      :)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    3. Re:Black Ops II by jnork · · Score: 1

      "Surrender Dorothy"

      --
      Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
  2. Surprised? by Imagix · · Score: 5, Informative

    Why is this surprising? Thought that's how the military one was captured a little while ago...

    1. Re:Surprised? by scubamage · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I remember people laughing that Iran couldn't possibly have done this. But I would assume that this would be exactly how they did do it.

    2. Re:Surprised? by MozeeToby · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because there is absolutely no way that a military drone should be using a single navigation source as it's be all end all, especially not GPS which can be jammed trivially and spoofed with a bit more effort. If your GPS signal is hundreds of Km off from where your dead reconning (using air speed and compass), says you should be the GPS signal should be ignored entirely. This is what airliner flight management systems do, in fact it's what any idiot hiking through the forest would do. The idea that the people coding software for military grade drones can't figure it out is more concerning than the idea that someone can spoof GPS signals.

    3. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Military drones, and other aircraft that use GPS for navigation use some form of GPS-enhanced INS, rather than just GPS. 'Hacking' a drone that only uses civillian GPS (ie. unencrypted signals) is probably no harder than 'hacking' an open WiFi - or even one with WEP. You just need the right equipment and software.

      Hacking an aircraft using the encrypted military signal and GPS-enhanced INS is a different game altogether. It is very unlikely that Iran could have done this; a spurious GPS signal will be rejected and the aircraft will simply fly with un-corrected INS until such as time as the GPS signal is determined to be reliable again.

      Also note that this has been successfuly demonstrated by GPS-guided bombs. Iraqis attempted to jam or spoof the GPS signals, but the onboard INS guided the bombs to target.

    4. Re:Surprised? by scubamage · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Wouldn't there be an order of precedence for multiple navigation signals? I'm not a drone engineer, so I could be wrong, but it would seem if you have multiple radios running you'd set priority for one over the others. If that one is jammed (say, find out what frequency its running on and flood that with noise) it will fail back to one of the other signals (perhaps civilian GPS), which could open a vector for exploitation? Just curious.

    5. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet here we are. We are spouting the same rhetoric we did when the Iraqis claimed they hacked a drone.

      We going to put our heads in the sand again?

    6. Re:Surprised? by Baloroth · · Score: 1

      It isn't surprising. It would be surprising if they managed to hack a drone that used encrypted GPS, which is (hopefully) what the military drone was using (and also one reason people are skeptical about Iran's claims).

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    7. Re:Surprised? by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2

      Voting is the more common approach - 3 means of determining something, and if one disagrees with the other two it is ignored.

    8. Re:Surprised? by f3rret · · Score: 1

      Because there is absolutely no way that a military drone should be using a single navigation source as it's be all end all, especially not GPS which can be jammed trivially and spoofed with a bit more effort.

      This might be true, what is entirely possible however, is that one guy has to take care of tens of drones at once where most of them are simply on autopilot. So if the operator isn't constantly paying attention to one of the drones (either because he is focused on another drone or because of laziness) then one drone can be brought far enough off course that you end up loosing it.

      --
      Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
    9. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did they hack it, or did the drone crash all on its own? They do this with alarming regularity.

      It's easy to say 'Iran hacked the drone!' (at least I assume you meant Iran); but it seems that everyone wants to ignore the possibility of a crash caused by a mechanical malfunction.

    10. Re:Surprised? by f3rret · · Score: 1

      And yet here we are. We are spouting the same rhetoric we did when the Iraqis claimed they hacked a drone.

      We going to put our heads in the sand again?

      Iranians.

      And yes, yes we are.

      --
      Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
    11. Re:Surprised? by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      one guy has to take care of tens of drones at once where most of them are simply on autopilot.

      Care to cite anything that verifies this assumption that there are multiple drones being controlled by a single pilot in service now?

      I have heard of possibilities of this occurring but have never heard of it being in use today. Where this approach hass been proposed it is more of as a swarm where multiple drones communicate and coordinate with each other to perform a task. There is always someone looking after the swarm. If a few drones are spoofed it would be obvious to the controller.

    12. Re:Surprised? by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Had the Iraqis been able to hack the military GPS signal it would have happened a lot more than once. The US did not stop using drones after the one went down. If Iraq could hack a drone what didn't they do it again? Answer; they didn't do it in the first place.

    13. Re:Surprised? by Rei · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The full Iranian claim was that they jammed all of the communications to the drone and then spoofed GPS. Aka, there were multiple navigation sources, and it lost them. When the drone loses communication for a length of time it is programmed to return to base and land unless it reestablishes communications and receives alternate orders. But it uses GPS to find out where the base is.

      Yeah, a "GPS position is changing too fast" check could be useful to try to thwart something like that, but it's also the sort of thing that can be overlooked, and also something that could be slowly faked (aka, from a blind plane's perspective, there's no difference between a "drifting GPS" and flying through a strong wind.). So yeah, you could get into a whole range of attacks and countermeasures, but sometimes the attackers will win, sometimes the defenders.

      The people who insisted that a country like Iran could never pull it off always struck me as way overconfident, egotistical. It reminds me of when the Serbians shot down a stealth (which the US tried to blame on hardware failures) and damaged another (among many other aircraft). I read an article on the elite Serbian unit who pulled that off with basically junk hardware and with no air superiority to back them up. They had their tactics down to a tee, and the US got totally overconfident. First they baited NATO into wasting their anti-radiation missiles by jury-rigging together as many fake "radars" as they could muster from junked military equipment. Then they hacked the hardware on the actual radars they were using, boosting the frequency many times over. This made the signal get hugely attenuated by the atmosphere, dramatically decreasing the range, but was A) out of the range of frequencies generally looked for, and B) wasn't nearly as affected by the stealth capabilities of the aircraft. The range was so low that the target aircraft had to fly pretty much over them, but they started mapping out the typical sortie patterns being used and got the hang of reckoning where they'd be and moving to intercept. They also got the hang of how much time it took from when the radar got hot to when a plane could take them out if they were detected, and timed their operations so that the hardware or at least the people had to be Not There Anymore(TM) by the deadline. The troops were drilled over and over in how to set up, get a lock, fire, and then get the heck out of there in the allotted time.

      It's easy to assume that because a country is poorer and can't afford fancy hardware, its people are idiots. But that's a bad assumption to make.

      --
      Rock Us, Dukakis.
    14. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Military drones don't rely on GPS as their sole source of navigation, they use it as a backup if they loose link with the ground station controlling it. The Iranians first used broad spectrum jamming to cause the UAV to loose link, then when the UAV entered its return home sequence using GPS because it had lost link, the Iranians spoofed GPS to make the UAV think its home field was the Iranian landing strip.

    15. Re:Surprised? by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

      Link

      Quick summary: Security on the drones has a history of bad decisions, such as unencrypted video feeds and malware. Breaking GPS encryption would be almost impossible, but it's quite possible that the drones were programmed to use unencrypted GPS as a fallback if encrypted GPS was lost, so if Iran jammed only the encrypted GPS signal, the plane would rely on spoofed unencrypted GPS. The short answer: it would have been tough, and we don't know whether they really did it or not, but it's not as impossible as people are making it out to be.

      --
      Rock Us, Dukakis.
    16. Re:Surprised? by wvmarle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's easy to assume that because a country is poorer and can't afford fancy hardware, its people are idiots. But that's a bad assumption to make.

      Necessity is the mother of all invention, right?

      People that don't have much can become really creative with what they do have.

    17. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The idea that the people coding software for military grade drones can't figure it out is more concerning than the idea that someone can spoof GPS signals.

      Not that they can't, probably just that it wasn't explicit in the contract and it's actually a hard non-trivial problem. An example of this same issue being handled in the DOT:
      http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/downloads/PDFs/RD_Review2012_JWithers_TrainControlAndComm_FINAL.pdf
      (see pages 7-9 of the pdf)

      As the paper above shows, it's not even that accurate in one dimension (forward/backward along defined path). It's harder in three dimension (+compass +roll +pitch). Any minor sensor drift/noise in dead reckoning leads to large errors over time. 'Direct measurements' (altitude, lat, lon) are needed to remove the drift.

    18. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The US didn't blame anything on hardware failures. The failure rested specifically with putting the route of the F-117 right over that SAM. If you get close enough, it will see you (it detected the F-117 at about 23km, according to records). The point of stealth is to shrink surveillance radii and sneak inbetween radars. This was a planning error, not hardware nor anything else. Once close enough, an F-117 is engaged like any other aircraft. There is no magic nor anything at all special about this. No frequency boosting or other BS pseudo-science crap ever happened.

      The claims about 'baiting NATO to waste their missiles on decoys' are funny - why? Because for this to happen, the SAM radars had to be shut down, thus rendering SEAD efforts successful. It doesn't matter if the missile didn't hit the SAM. What matters is that for that time, the SAM was useless. Result? Serbians dancing on the wreckage of two planes out of hundreds of sorties that demolished their infrastructure. That's right. Those 'so smart tactics' got them two planes and failed to defend their country whatsoever.

    19. Re:Surprised? by Cow+Jones · · Score: 1

      When the drone loses communication for a length of time it is programmed to return to base and land unless it reestablishes communications and receives alternate orders. But it uses GPS to find out where the base is.

      The drone knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviation to generate corrective commands to drive the drone from a position where it is to a position where it isn't and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was is now the position that it isn't.

      In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the drone is and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the drone must also know where it was. The drone guidance computer scenario works as follows. Because a variation has modified some of the information the drone has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.

      --

      Ah, arrogance and stupidity, all in the same package. How efficient of you. -- Londo Mollari
    20. Re:Surprised? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In addition, there's absolutely no evidence to back this claim - "But the big worry is — it also means that it wouldn't be too hard for [a very skilled person] to work out how to un-encrypt military drones and spoof them, and that could be extremely dangerous because they could turn them on the wrong people."

      Transitioning from "making a few fake pseudolites" to "discovering the crypto key before it changes" (I believe the keys rotate on a daily basis, so you would need to crack the key AND the key change algorithm) is a MAJOR step. I don't know what universe that person lives in if they thing breaking military-grade crypto is even remotely close to this attack in complexity. This attack is easymode compared to generating a proper P(Y) code.

      The only "break" so far in the military encryption is the fact that the same keys (and in fact same signal) are used on both L1 and L2, allowing you to cross-correlate L1 and L2 to determine ionospheric delay and remove that one error source. Note that the next block of GPS satellites adds a civilian L2 signal, so this "break" is mostly irrelevant.

      In addition, no evidence was provided that a RAIM-enabled receiver was successfully spoofed, only a cheap consumer-grade unit that lacked RAIM.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    21. Re:Surprised? by Shoten · · Score: 2

      Possibly, but possibly not. For one thing, the attack being shown here is far, far from news. And there are actually tons of ways to build a GPS receiver with the native ability to detect spoofing, and those features are standard for high-risk equipment (like classified stealth drones). But on the other hand, all of the details are classified in some way or another, so it's really hard to know for sure...but I doubt that it was all that simple as the attack shown here.

      One simple way of detecting spoofing is by frequency strength. The most basic attack is to impersonate the satellites, and to be strong enough in output that the receiver is sure to pick up your "sats" instead of the real ones. But that typically means you're putting out a WAY stronger signal than you'd normally get from a GPS, and that ends up being a dead giveaway.

      For military uses, the open and unencrypted C/A code GPS signal isn't even used; they use the more secure (and originally supposedly more accurate...but not really more accurate) P code signal (which now has a W code overlaid onto it as well). So there are inherent features involved in military GPS that act as anti-spoofing as well.

      --

      For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
    22. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the context of the parent to your post, not really. The Serbs did have all this stuff; SAM decoys are standard tactics for anyone who actually uses them. Their use is detailed in the right field manuals, if you know where to look. There is nothing special or unexpected about this at all.

    23. Re:Surprised? by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      People that don't have much can become really creative with what they do have.

      For some reason, that makes me think of the Sardaukar or the Fremen.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    24. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it probably never relied on GPS, but on EINS - GPS corrected INS. Once the GPS is detected to be unreliable (ie. no longer in accordance with the INS), GPS corrections will be ignored. It isn't that easy to spoof these things. Not impossible, just not very likely.

    25. Re:Surprised? by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      You've just given the most convoluted explanation of dead reckoning I've ever read.

      But isn't the problem that, since the error increases over time, the drones prefer to resort to GPS if they think it's available? What I find strange about the Iranian story, though, is that one would assume that a US drone only used encrypted GPS signals, i.e. P(Y) code according to Wikipedia. These shouldn't be spoofable. So was that perhaps a classical "fallback to an unsafe option" security problem?

    26. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you. These people seem to be of the misguided impression that the point of the Balkan conflict was a game between SAM and stealth tech. There was a war going on, and if their best SAM people spent weeks screwing around to shoot down a single bomber than I'd say they lost.

    27. Re:Surprised? by peragrin · · Score: 1

      You are forgetting two parts of the Serbia plane.

      One it was flying in an extremely confined corridor between nations (like 30-40 mes wide). If you know where something will be you have the advantage

      Two the F-117 was ugly because it was built with a 1970's computer that quite literally couldnt handle curves.

      Yes the serbian shot it down and he did do just about all you describe but remember while he took advantage of all battlefield conditions like a good general. Not just technology

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    28. Re:Surprised? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      What in the world makes you think it would be designed well?

      Simple fact of life, the less clients you have the worse the design will be. This is because everything is one off.

    29. Re:Surprised? by element-o.p. · · Score: 5, Interesting
      I pretty much agree with everything you said above (well-written and insightful, IMHO, and I absolutely agree with your conclusion). However, one part doesn't quite make sense to me:

      The full Iranian claim was that they jammed all of the communications to the drone and then spoofed GPS. Aka, there were multiple navigation sources, and it lost them.

      Okay, I don't design, build, fly or repair military drones (or even civilian ones...yet). I am, however, a fixed-wing pilot in my off-hours. In civilian airplanes, we use multiple navigation methods too, and I would presume that many of these navigation systems are applicable to drones as well as Cessnas. For example, it's probably safe to assume that drones use GPS just like I do. Military drones probably also use TACAN, which essentially is just the military equivalent of civilian VOR/DME (navigation using fixed, ground-based radio stations). Either of those systems are susceptible to attack as you've described above. However, larger civilian airplanes, like business jets and airliners, have also used a navigation system called INS, or "Inertial Navigation System," which uses accelerometers and gyroscopes to compute the moral equivalent of dead reckoning ("it's been 23 minutes since I passed my last waypoint, so with an estimated speed of 110 knots, that means I should be reaching my next waypoint in five...four...three...two...one...turn left to heading 070 degrees and descend to 2500 feet MSL..."). INS should be pretty much immune to spoofing or jamming of radio signals, since it is completely internal. Therefore, I would expect that INS should be more than capable of providing a sanity check and fail-over against GPS or TACAN radio navigation. Even better, install multiple INS systems, and if they all agree within a sane margin of error, while your radio navigation systems are either jammed or showing that you are a hundred miles away from your computed location and/or your most recent known-good position, then assume your navigation signals are being attacked and fail-over to INS until/unless you reach a point where all navigation systems agree again.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    30. Re:Surprised? by Rei · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The US didn't blame anything on hardware failures.

      Sorry, "refused to confirm claims that it was shot down" for several days - is that better?

      The claims about 'baiting NATO to waste their missiles on decoys' are funny - why? Because for this to happen, the SAM radars had to be shut down, thus rendering SEAD efforts successful. It doesn't matter if the missile didn't hit the SAM. What matters is that for that time, the SAM was useless. Result? Serbians dancing on the wreckage of two planes out of hundreds of sorties that demolished their infrastructure. That's right. Those 'so smart tactics' got them two planes and failed to defend their country whatsoever.

      First off: Three planes down (one ditched into the Adriatic, two over land) and a number of hits that crippled other craft but did not lead to crashes (the other stealth that they hit reportedly never flew again), plus several cruise missiles. Dani's unit saw no casualties or loss of hardware. Of course other less trained units sufferedlosses, but that's not the point I was making (I am *not* claiming that weak powers will always outsmart/defeat strong powers, or even that it's likely - just that they shouldn't be underestimated and can sometimes pull off impressive feats). They shot down a stealth and nearly a second one using 1960s hardware and with total loss of air superiority.

      Serbia had no hope of preventing the destruction of fixed infrastructure. Their military budget was something like a tenth of a percent of the military budgets of the nations they were facing. Their only option was to preserve their military capability for as long as possible while costing NATO as much money as possible and buy as much time as possible in hopes that Russia would step in to their defense. HARMs are a heck of a lot more expensive than junkyard radars, and well, F-117s? They don't grow on trees. Serbian losses were quite small at the end of the war and their military pretty much intact, despite earlier NATO claims to the contrary, and the US actually had documents showing that they clearly didn't believe their own numbers they were giving out. Despite the use of obsolete hardware, just over a dozen tanks were destroyed, under 20 artillery pieces, etc. NATO hit orders of magnitude more decoys as actual military targets. There were only 492 Serbian casualties. Of non-fixed military hardware, only the airforce was effectively destroyed, which was pretty much expected (an obsolete airforce is pretty helpless). The problem Serbia had was that NATO was prepping for ground war and Russia, as mad as they were, made it clear that they weren't going to get militarily involved.

      And contrary to your claims, the fact that NATO couldn't destroy anti-aircraft batteries like Dani's made their life a lot harder. It meant they had to fly a lot higher (less precision) and limited the types of aircraft which could get involved. Furthermore, not only were the downed aircraft rallying points (the last thing you want to do is re-moralize your enemies - I'll never forget the "Sorry about your plane, we didn't know it was invisible" sign), parts from the downed stealth are believed to have been sold to China and used for their stealth aircraft program. There are serious material consequences to the US from what happened.

      --
      Rock Us, Dukakis.
    31. Re:Surprised? by Rei · · Score: 1

      The Serbs had hardware from the 1960s and a tiny military budget. The US airforce was designed to fight a modern military. As much as you'd like to downplay it, this was *not* supposed to happen once, let alone twice (the second F-117 limped home but never flew again).

      --
      Rock Us, Dukakis.
    32. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't use single paths of control but there's limitations on the range of the varying control means. If the drone's on autopilot and it's out of range of the primary control signal, then they could've done it that way...

    33. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That sir, is brilliant.

      I'm going to look it up, but would appreciate any links re Serbia.

    34. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problems with "voting" is that if someone compromised two of the input sources, you just took the wrong information- which leads us back to the exploit we're discussing...yet again...

    35. Re:Surprised? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Jam the encrypted GPS signal and spoof the unencrypted one. The spoof signal starts out accurate but slowly drifts at a rate below the threshold for the drone's error detection to kick in. As time goes by it gets further and further off course.

      INS just isn't that accurate. Commercial aircraft have all sorts of aids to help them, but even then sometimes get out of position and crash. Guided bombs don't rely on just INS, they have terrain following. Terrain following doesn't work very well over flat areas like deserts and can be interfered with too. It isn't really suitable for drones.

      Military hardware isn't immune to flaws and design errors. Look at the Patriot missile system, scuppered due to a software bug.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    36. Re:Surprised? by element-o.p. · · Score: 2

      ^^^This^^^

      Keep in mind that this is /. There is a greater-than-average collection of people who do computer security day-in and day-out here. I'm not saying that the /. collective is necessarily brighter than those tasked with building and maintaining military drones, but, well, here's an anecdote for you: I was talking to an Army guy around Christmas who was describing what he does to get computer systems "functional" for his squad after the techies send them new desktops and/or laptops. If someone in my organization did the things he says he did, I'd make it my mission in life to get him fired for violating our security policies. Young, inexperienced, well-meaning guy with some degree of computer skills but no real-world experience with computer security + overly restrictive security policies = disabled security policies. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that this happens with drones, too.

      Point being: not everyone is as security-conscious as those of us who do computer security for a living and have done so for long enough to understand the "why" as well as the "how." Consequently, some things that are "duh" to us might not even occur to a guy in the field who just graduated from high-school six months ago and is now trying to get a drone functional before his squad marches into a potential firefight.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    37. Re:Surprised? by xtal · · Score: 1

      ..the above is why the logical next step for drones is to apply AI expert systems and let them make their own decisions. It's the only way to overcome comms jamming/spoofing if you're not going to use radar seeking missiles to take out the ECM sites.

      I welcome our new drove overlords.

      --
      ..don't panic
    38. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There are no reports as to what happened to the second F-117. Some like to claim it was hit by a SAM, but there is nothing credible out there in public.
      Some like to claim that B-2's were shot down, too.

      The Serbs had and have hardware that is effective, and tactics that are used by pretty much anyone who uses SAMs today. I'm not down-playing anything. I am telling you how it actually is. There's no weapon out there that you can consider to not be a threat when you fly into its WEZ, regardless of how old it may be. This aside, most people don't realize that 'hardware from the 60's' is constantly upgraded. The SA-3 (the SAM that took down the F-117) was well maintained and staffed by a very capable crew, both of which play a huge role in combat effectiveness; finally, the F-117's flight path was a planning/intel failure plain and simple. You can bring down any aircraft by ambushing it successfuly, and in this case, the F-117 was pretty much ambushed.

      The tactics they used were standard fare - they searched for the F-117 several times post-detection, taking care to limit radiation time with each attempt to avoid taking a HARM (their search radar was immune to HARMs since it operated at a lower frequency than the HARM antenna can detect). This stuff would have happened a lot faster with a newer system, and that is simply a fuction of modern automation. But once you're targeted, you're in trouble. It doesn't matter if the SAM is old or new. An old SAM is less likely to shoot you down, but it isn't an impossible feat. The F-117 was detected in the heart of the engagement zone where the PK for an SA-3 is something around 97% against a non-maneuvering, non-jamming target ... which is what the F-117 was.

      It's easy to go around dismissing the effectiveness of SEAD when you don't understand how these weapons operate; it is also easy to assign 'great inventiveness and ingenuity' to the underdog for the same reason, not to mention the fallacy of appeal to emotion for the underdog.

      I'll say it again: The Serbs did nothing special. They just did their job. There was no technological tinkering, no magical stealth-defeating radars or missiles. For all their discipline and capability, all they had to show for it was a couple of shot down planes and surrendered country.

    39. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sorry, "refused to confirm claims that it was shot down" for several days - is that better?

      Not really. So what if they did? The facts about it are known now. Refusing to acknowledge its shoot down can be more of an OPSEC issue than some attempt to cover it up. Did you think that the risk of such aircraft being shot down, or coming down due to mechanical failure is not factored into operations?

      First off: Three planes down (one ditched into the Adriatic, two over land) and a number of hits that crippled other craft but did not lead to crashes (the other stealth that they hit reportedly never flew again), plus several cruise missiles. Dani's unit saw no casualties or loss of hardware. Of course other less trained units sufferedlosses, but that's not the point I was making (I am *not* claiming that weak powers will always outsmart/defeat strong powers, or even that it's likely - just that they shouldn't be underestimated and can sometimes pull off impressive feats). They shot down a stealth and nearly a second one using 1960s hardware and with total loss of air superiority.

      They also shot down a lot of drones. And? Dani's crew saw a lot of luck. That F-117 flew right into the heart of the SA-3 WEZ. And again, while I'm well aware of the second F-117, there have been zero credible reports as to what may have happened to it.

      Their only option was to preserve their military capability for as long as possible while costing NATO as much money as possible and buy as much time as possible in hopes that Russia would step in to their defense.

      They were preparing for a ground offensive, so they hoped to save their SAMs to do most of the damage at that time. A smart move, but it was side-stepped.

      HARMs are a heck of a lot more expensive than junkyard radars,

      It really doesn't matter. SEAD - Supression of Enemy Air Defenses. It worked. Do you not realize that the same tactics work against modern SAMs?

      and well, F-117s? They don't grow on trees. Serbian losses were quite small at the end of the war and their military pretty much intact, despite earlier NATO claims to the contrary, and the US actually had documents showing that they clearly didn't believe their own numbers they were giving out.

      Yep, the numbers on both sides were funny. I'll point out once again, that while the Serbs may have kept most of their forces intact, they lost Kosovo. They capitulated. You're not saying anything new, at least not to anyone who understands the military situation as it was there.

      Despite the use of obsolete hardware, just over a dozen tanks were destroyed, under 20 artillery pieces, etc. NATO hit orders of magnitude more decoys as actual military targets.

      That's correct, and again, it ends up being irrelevant for the above reason. The fact is that they knew if their army had come out, it would have been destroyed in place.

      There were only 492 Serbian casualties. Of non-fixed military hardware, only the airforce was effectively destroyed, which was pretty much expected (an obsolete airforce is pretty helpless). The problem Serbia had was that NATO was prepping for ground war and Russia, as mad as they were, made it clear that they weren't going to get militarily involved.

      NATO had such an idea, but they decided against it pretty early on - IIRC, my memory might be foggy on that one.

    40. Re:Surprised? by jd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      INS would be good, yes, but how to identify when a spoofed signal is just a little off what you expect, then increasingly different? Since INS has cumulative error, you can stay within the estimated error bounds and yet totally deceive the drone.

      Answer: Radio direction finders. 1930s technology. If the signal is below you and at 300 yards, it's probably not a satellite above you and at 6000 miles. (Marconi, the company, developed the technique of using two RDFs offset from each other to triangulate and therefore give range as well as direction.)

      Can you supplement INS using this same technique? Once GPS is marked as out-of-action, those RDFs can be used to triangulate on any radio source, after all. Not if all frequencies are jammed.

      Ok, are there any other sensors that could be used? 3-way magnetic sensors (provided they're wired the right way up) could give you some information, provided there were no strong magnetic fields AND you had a magnetic map of the area. The first an enemy can arrange, the second is unlikely in unfriendly territory.

      What about terrain-following radar? If you know what the terrain looks like, you can arguably use that with other dead-reckoning techniques to pinpoint your location. I'll give that a maybe, but remember that every added component subtracts from payload and subtracts from the value of using a drone vs a manned vehicle.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    41. Re:Surprised? by jd · · Score: 1

      In this case, and in all times in the past, sure. I'll buy that.

      In the future? Not so sure. Not many key change algorithms are approved for military use, and any encryption algorithm that uses primes (eg: RSA) will become vulnerable in the foreseeable future. A war in 20-30 years time should be considered against an opponent that can break any algorithm of that type well within the 24 hours required. Since technology developed now will take a decade or so to develop and test, and needs the same in lifetime to be worth the costs, any technology developed today should assume any problem of similar complexity to be a solved problem for any enemy.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    42. Re:Surprised? by jd · · Score: 1

      In theory, the fewer clients you have, the better the design will be because you can use optimizations that won't apply in a more general case.

      In practice, however, you are correct, often because when you get into those situations, those few clients are not terribly concerned with quality and there aren't any alternatives if they were.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    43. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They didn't hack a military grade drone, they hacked their own drown. RTFA.

    44. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it's more than twice as hard to spoof two separate inputs, and have them agree enough to override the third, than it is to simply override one.

    45. Re:Surprised? by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Good points, and you are correct that INS has a cumulative error that can eventually lead you way, way off target. However, that was why I mentioned the last known good way point. If you want to slowly lead the drone off-target by jamming and spoofing signals, that will take time. So, what if you set up your mission profile so that a drone is never on-target long enough for the cumulative error to reach a degree of significance? Jamming and spoofing will be a localized phenomenon, so you could start a timer as soon as you start detecting interference on your radio navigation signals. Also cross-check your GPS and INS with a compass -- it's one of the simplest, and therefore most reliable -- navigation instruments ever devised. If your INS is showing you off-course, and your GPS is telling you that you need to turn 40 degrees west to return to base, but the compass shows that you actually need to turn 130 degrees east to return to base (based upon your last known-good position and possible deviation based upon time-on-target), then trust the compass until you are clear of the jamming and can rely on radio navigation again.

      Additionally, while I agree that the more redundant navigation systems you build, the less payload you can carry, have you looked at what consumer-grade sensors are available lately? I've bought a number of sensors (temperature, pressure, etc.) for my Arduino, and most of them are 1 inch square PCBs with less than a half-dozen SMT components and one or two chips -- weight is *maybe* an ounce. I don't think I've bought a compass sensor yet, but it looks to be the same size. So no, you don't want to just add system after system after system to a drone -- especially some of the smaller, hand-launched drones -- but I daresay it is entirely plausible to build a system that offers sufficient redundancy without overly impacting payload.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    46. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's easy to assume that because a country is poorer and can't afford fancy hardware, its people are idiots. But that's a bad assumption to make.

      There's a short sci-fi story I can't remember the name of that tells the tale of an interstellar war. One side keeps researching new and better weapons, up to and including a space 'warping' shield... that has the unfortunate effect of just _slightly_ altering the dimensions of the ships it's installed on to the point where spare parts, even nuts and bolts, won't fit any more. The other side just keeps pumping out the 'old' ships, and eventually overwhelms with numbers.

    47. Re:Surprised? by cockpitcomp · · Score: 1

      Wrong. You can trick the FMS on commercial airliners if you can spoof GPS. There is no expectation that a class A sensor would lie and not report itself failed. FMS position is simply IRS position with GPS based drift correction applied. If the GPS says its HIL is good, the GPS position is used rather than radio position. But tricking the pilot and ATC would be a challenge. Heading comes directly from the IRS unmolested and changes would be noticed right on the ND. And you would probably get a wild wind values calculated that would be also be noticed. And a lot of extraneous maneuvering on a straight leg would be noticed. And would have to spoof over a large area as those things don't turn very fast.

    48. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would there be a need to break the encryption?
      Just spoof it with wrong information. It should automatically reject that source as valid navigation data, it should then switch to more unreliable sources (non encrypted gps).

    49. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      only problem with saying "Iran couldn't do it" is that Russia helped with their newly deployed GLONASS system, which is more than capable of overpowering our military GPS satellites (Boeing & Lockheed Martin already have contracts to build the next round of GPS satellites to keep up with the Russians)...

    50. Re:Surprised? by jd · · Score: 1

      Yes, the only way to do cumulative jamming would be to shadow the drone with a second drone. If the total flight is a few hundred miles and the average speed is low, you could imagine the error that could be introduced could be very substantial. You're absolutely right that this would take time, so this is the only realistic way you could get that time.

      The use of a compass is essentially the same as the one I suggested - although a compass is a 2D magnetic sensor rather than a 3D. 3D has the benefit of giving you altitude, so letting you check every parameter. Yes it can be done. I looked into such sensors relatively recently (I was interested in whether I could make an electric guitar that used magnetic, rather than electric, fields and that could determine the direction the string was vibrating in - IMHO, a much more interesting problem than drones, but there ya go).

      I agree that it is plausible to add sufficient redundancy, but my experience with drone technology is that the drone manufacturers LOVE to bolt things together with incredibly heavy modules. The modules I worked with were the CPU modules. PC104, running ****BLEAGH**** Windows CE. An OLD version at that. Actually, that might be the problem right there -- running Windows!

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    51. Re:Surprised? by cheesybagel · · Score: 2

      All aircraft and strategic missiles of the 1980s used so called INS+Stellar navigation which is to say a combined system with both inertial navigation and GPS (or GLONASS). This was because global positioning systems were seem to be susceptible to an attack (e.g. using strategic missiles to blow up the satellites in space) in an all out war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact. It seems people are overly reliant on the GPS satellites today because the wars being fought are with low tech opponents which cannot directly target the satellites in orbit. However the signals can still be jammed and spoofed.

    52. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      woosh... click the link at the end, or youtube missile guidance

    53. Re:Surprised? by Belial6 · · Score: 2

      I would think that the solution to future encryption would be one time pads. One time pads don't work for things like Wifi and credit cards because there is no good out of band way to load them on the client. With a drone, there is all sorts of maintenance that is going to be done at the time of launch. So, at launch time, a sufficiently huge set of one time pads are loaded into the drone, and copied to the control center. Using this method, you could decrypt the signal using a simple XOR, yet still maintain complete security. Even if the enemy gets their hands on one of the drones, there is no data on it to reverse engineer to break the code for any other drone.

      As far as I know, there isn't even any known theoretical possibilities for breaking a properly used one time pad.

    54. Re:Surprised? by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      If it did crash it was incredibly well preserved...

    55. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From a developers point of view, I'd have to agree with the idea of using multiple navigational/location inputs, and blocking out any which seem "haywire", and I'm sure current Drone developers have spent a whole lot of man hours in closed conference rooms discussing this very topic.

      However when putting on my "management/business" hat for a minute (I try not to do this very often as I'm afraid one of these days it'll turn me evil!), one of the biggest things on my mind is to make sure any development time I'm responsible for is very well aware that one of the most important requirements would be to do everything possible to "not lose a $4.5 million drone."

      With that said, think about this: Let's say the drone does use GPS, TACAN, *and* INS to determine it's location. Now let's say the SANITY checking has determined that all three are reporting widely different values (positions). If you think about the bottom line to "not lose a $4.5 million drone," that sanity code needs to kick off some sort of emergency return-to-base action.

      This boils it down to one very important decision: If you could only use --A SINGLE ONE-- of those location services, which one would give you the best possible chance at landing that $4.5 million drone the safest way possible, possibly hundreds of miles away? I don't think any business would dare rely on any sort of "internally" calculated values, so it would have to be one of the externally-sourced services, which ultimately means it is spoof-able (even if that means some sort of encryption hacking had to be done).

      Even a live pilot on the ground, able to remotely view an Ariel camera, can't be relied on because if someone can jam/spoof the GPS/TACAN signals, I'm quite sure they can jam any communication from the live-pilot.

    56. Re:Surprised? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      If the satellite transmits 1kbps for 30 years, that is only 113GB of data. You could conceivably load all that onto a satellite before it is launched.

      The issue is getting the key to the receiver. The key is only as secure as whatever method you use to transfer it. Also, unless you start multiplying that data volume substantially everybody has to share the same pads, which makes it easier to intercept (though this can be mitigated by only loading as much key as strictly necessary into any particular device - a ship won't stay at sea for more than a year and so on). You could have a few backup pads on the satellite in case one is compromised. Plus, if you never distribute pad more than a year is out and one is compromised then you could always go back to it a year later.

      Key distribution is the big problem with OTP. Inevitably you end up transmitting it over conventional crypto, which reduces the problem to breaking that cipher. However, a OTP itself if used properly is indeed unbreakable unless the key is disclosed.

    57. Re:Surprised? by cavreader · · Score: 2

      Prove it. Backup your speculation without using more speculation from yourself or others. And while you do that I will give you something else to roll around in your head. The US knew where the drone went down and could have destroyed it using an armed drone strike, manned jet strike, spec op mission, or even a cruise missile if something important was built into it. Why didn't they? It's not like Iran could have stopped them or the US would give a damn about any Iranian sensibilities. It didn't go down in midtown Tehran. It went down less than a 50 miles from the border in the middle of nowhere. It doesn't make the news often but there have been at least 7+ unarmed military drones crash from either mechanical or operator error so the one that went down inside Iran is not a new thing. And plus the drone that did crash was unarmed (i.e no weapon guidance systems or intact ordinance) and are now being sold for civilian purposes both domestically and internationally. Iran could have probably purchased one using cutouts. And as far as the article goes they needed an unencrypted GPS signal and the Reaper or Predator series of drones encrypt the GPS signal. The drone that went down in Iran was little more than a flying camera used for surveillance.

    58. Re:Surprised? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      A military device should assume any unauthenticated data is misinformation. If designed properly it would never use unencrypted GPS. That's been standard operating procedure in any military with half a brain for 50 years. The US should be particularly aware of this considering spoofing enemy communications was used against the Axis quite a bit in WWII (the brits would send false instructions by voice to German bomber pilots to vector them towards fighters).

    59. Re:Surprised? by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      This boils it down to one very important decision: If you could only use --A SINGLE ONE-- of those location services, which one would give you the best possible chance at landing that $4.5 million drone the safest way possible, possibly hundreds of miles away?

      IME, there is not a single, static answer to that question. You are building a drone for use in combat. Therefore, it is plausible that either 1) you have a system malfunction or 2) you are under electronic attack. In airliners, you tend not to have two or more independent systems fail simultaneously, therefore redundant systems often operate on a voting system: if two agree, and a third is outside the error bounds, then discard all data from that third system. If you are in combat, and both of your radio navigation systems start showing wide discrepancies with INS (TACAN is jammed and GPS is working, but showing a significantly different position than INS) then it is probably safe to say that it is not a systems failure but an attack. Once you have made that determination, then I would strongly disagree that it is unsafe to rely on "'internally' calculated values." Rather, if it is probable that you are under a jamming/spoofing attack, internally calculated values are almost certainly the *only* values you can trust.

      Also, like I said, a compass is one of the most reliable navigation instruments ever devised. If ten minutes ago, you were at a known-good waypoint, 120 miles from your base, and now GPS says you are at the initial approach fix for landing, then there is no way you are back at base unless your drone is capable of supersonic flight -- that's what I mean by "sanity checking." If at time "A" you know that you were at waypoint "B", then does it make any kind of logical sense that just a few minutes later, you are very, very far away from that checkpoint (with "very, very far" being defined by the capabilities of the aircraft -- "very, very far" for an SR-71 at cruise is significantly different than "very, very far" for a quadcopter, for example)? Once you have determined that your navigation systems are suspect, fail back to the one most likely to be correct. Which one gives a result that is within a reasonable distance from your last known good point? Which direction does the compass tell you will return you to base from the last known good point? Do those agree? Cool -- turn to that heading and get the flock out of Dodge.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    60. Re:Surprised? by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      I would not say they lost.
      They in fact did lose. Completely.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    61. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The encrypted and unencrypted signals are on the same frequency. So you can't choose which one you jam.

      You're right it's not impossible, but it's far more technically complex than the media is capable of reporting...

    62. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the back up shouldn't be an external source at all. The technology is already here it is inertial guidance. I'm no expert on such things and accuracy might be an issue but inertial guidance could at least guide a drone to a safe place where it could crash (the desert for example). That would certainly be better than crashing somewhere in a crowded city or being directed to land at an enemies airport.

    63. Re:Surprised? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      I am pretty sure I read a report stating that is how they DID do it. I'm not sure if they were impersonating the GPS signal or the command signal but either one was used to steer the thing to them.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    64. Re:Surprised? by Mr+44 · · Score: 1

      Voting may have been common 40 years ago, but any modern system would use a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter#Example_application or something similar (and much less naive).

    65. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't that how Pooh and Piglet got out of the woods?

    66. Re:Surprised? by profplump · · Score: 1

      And the drone builders -- who also build traditional airplanes -- totally forgot to install the dead reckoning and internal guidance packages that they include in all their other autopilot designs? Because they thought this more-automated plane needed less navigational data than a human pilot?

    67. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...in fact it's what any idiot hiking through the forest would do.

      No, it is not what any idiot hiking through the forest would do ;-)

    68. Re:Surprised? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      But it's more than twice as hard to spoof two separate inputs, and have them agree enough to override the third, than it is to simply override one.

      You don't have to spoof 2, you have to jam 2 and spoof 1.

    69. Re:Surprised? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Voting may have been common 40 years ago, but any modern system would use a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter#Example_application or something similar (and much less naive).

      But the exploit is example the same with a Kalman filter, you jam 2 of the signals and spoof the other 1. The jammed ones are the encrypted ones that have error detection, and get removed from the sample, and a Kalman filter with 1 input is exactly the same as voting with 1 input. You have 1 input and it is the spoofed public GPS. Now what.

    70. Re:Surprised? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Actually, the back up shouldn't be an external source at all. The technology is already here it is inertial guidance. I'm no expert on such things and accuracy might be an issue but inertial guidance could at least guide a drone to a safe place where it could crash (the desert for example). That would certainly be better than crashing somewhere in a crowded city or being directed to land at an enemies airport.

      Inertial guidance is good for some things, but if you have an aircraft on an extended patrol as done with drones it will be less accurate the longer it is in the air. If the aircraft is too willing to crash, that could also place it in the wrong hands.

      Maybe it should just explode if it loses contact. Remember to turn it off before shipping...

    71. Re:Surprised? by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      It reminds me of when the Serbians shot down a stealth (which the US tried to blame on hardware failures) and damaged another (among many other aircraft). I read an article on the elite Serbian unit who pulled that off with basically junk hardware

      There is no mystery, "stealth" planes have a normal (non-stealthy) radar profile when wet, and the decision was made to use it like a normal plane when the weather was unfavorable. One of them got shot down. Not by junk, but by one of the best small soviet AA missiles with Serbian moderizations.

      They took a risk and they lost a plane. It happens.

    72. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jam the encrypted GPS signal and spoof the unencrypted one.

      Impossible, all GPS functions use the same two frequencies. There is no "encrypted" and "unencrypted" signal. There's just the one signal that various devices can access more or less of.

    73. Re:Surprised? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The Serbs had hardware from the 1960s and a tiny military budget. The US airforce was designed to fight a modern military. As much as you'd like to downplay it, this was *not* supposed to happen once, let alone twice (the second F-117 limped home but never flew again).

      Their hardware was from the 80s, and it was designed by the Soviets to shoot down American planes. And when they decided to knowingly send it out into poor weather including flying through clouds, they knew that would expose it to radar. You're never supposed to lose when you take a risk. But you know you might.

    74. Re:Surprised? by couchslug · · Score: 0

      Well deserved for backing the WRONG SIDE in that squabble.

      We should have let the Serbs do their thing instead of rescuing their (and our) Muslim enemies.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    75. Re:Surprised? by couchslug · · Score: 1

      INS worked fine long before GPS satellites existed, and modern ring laser gyro units are highly accurate.

      A compact INS:

      http://www.gim-international.com/news/id5719-iXSeas_Smallest_Inertial_Navigation_System.html

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    76. Re:Surprised? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Modern INS are accurate for far longer than any flight. They are expensive however even for the military, and there is the encrypted military band GPS.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    77. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Totally true. However, an INS system would have a certain amount of error, and depending on the hardware, drift. If you spoof the GPS by small amounts at a time (to simulate a strong cross-wind, for example) then the margin of error of both systems wouldn't necessarily be enough to trip a "something is f'ed up" warning, and fall back to internal systems. Now, I don't know if there would be enough airspace to drift the GPS signal that slowly but with enough over-all accuracy to make the drone land where you wanted; that would depend on how far away its home base is, I suppose.

      Also, programmers are lazy almost by definition. While they can be very smart and clever, overlooking simple things can happen easily, even on big-budget programs.

    78. Re:Surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Because there is absolutely no way that a military drone should be using a single navigation source

      In theory, perhaps.

      In reality/practice, not so much. There isn't much else out there. Most of the alternatives are either:

      • not available world-wide
      • competitive navigation systems have been dismantled
      • not accurate enough for precision navigation needed by drones
      • not cheap enough even if inferior accuracy to be usable on drones
      • not possible in a "drone" form factor
      • even less secure

      > If your GPS signal is hundreds of Km off from where your dead reconning (using air speed and compass), says you should be the GPS signal should be ignored entirely.

      LOL. This is exactly the problem though of why that doesn't work. What is "the truth" that becomes your reference to decide that GPS is false?? GPS has the best navigation accuracy possible. GPS is orders of magnitude more accurate than any competing navigation technology so if (and likely) your dead-reckoning is completely wrong and then says, wrongly, that GPS "must be wrong". So do you just "splash" the vehicle on such shoddy evidence?? If you think you're losing a lot of drones now, get ready for a flood. Like >95% of them.

      The problem is that only a human has any hope of having such an intuition and yet most humans get that intuition completely wrong. Just look at VFR vs. IFR in aviation. You intuitions usually lie to you which why much of IFR training is about forcing you to ignore what your intuition is screaming at you and ONLY read the instruments because 99 times out of 100, the instruments are correct and not your intuition is dead wrong.

      This is an existential problem that has no real solution. Nothing is better than GPS but GPS can't be made perfect - it can be spoofed. ALL MILITARY (or other) TECHNOLOGIES CAN BE SPOOFED! And especially when the technology is complex, the cost of spoofing is always cheaper than the cost of the technology itself. Nothing can be done about this other than accept the implications of it and plan accordingly.

      Key to that planning is to not get into unwinnable conflicts assuming the wrong things about your weapons. That would be Epic Fail. That would be repeating the mistakes of Vietnam all over again which is exactly what Afghanistan and Iraq have been and what new wars in Libya, Syria, Yemen and Africa will necessarily become.

      > The idea that the people coding software for military grade drones can't figure it out is more concerning than the idea that someone can spoof GPS signals.

      N.B. Coding, or cracking the coding, has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with spoofing GPS. Unencrypted GPS is NOT a necessary condition to spoof GPS. Encrypted GPS can be spoofed almost as easily as unencrypted GPS. Ask yourself: can a CSS-encrypted DVD be copied into a usable duplicate without breaking the CSS encryption? The answer is: hell yes! Trivially! Ergo QED.

    79. Re:Surprised? by Rei · · Score: 1

      It was an unupgraded SA-3 GOA, a SAM that went into service in 1961.

      That one F-117 alone cost an order of magnitude more than all of the tanks, artilleries and APCs destroyed by all of NATO combined during the entire campaign. Ignoring the morale and loss of technology consequences.

      --
      Rock Us, Dukakis.
    80. Re:Surprised? by Mr+44 · · Score: 1

      I don't think you're getting it. The inputs to the Kalman filter would be an encrypted GPS signal, accelerometer readings, magnetic compass bearing, wind speed and visual odometery. Now which ones are being jammed, and which spoofed?

    81. Re:Surprised? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      I don't think you're getting it. The inputs to the Kalman filter would be an encrypted GPS signal, accelerometer readings, magnetic compass bearing, wind speed and visual odometery. Now which ones are being jammed, and which spoofed?

      You left the critical additional input, the un-encrypted GPS.

      Magnetic compass bearing and other parts of the inertial package would help... if you're flying from point A to point B. They don't help a drone that is flying in circles all day. The drift adds up.

      If the only 2 things that are reliable after extensive maneuvering is encrypted GPS and un-encrypted GPS, then you simply jam the encrypted one and spoof the un-encrypted very carefully so that your changes remain within the permitted/expected level of drift on the inertial sensors.

      Wind speed presumably was a joke so I will not address it.

      Visual odometery is great for a cruise missile that has a single carefully constructed path, it helps a lot less for going in circles and figuring out where you are. Currently computers can't do that, only humans can. So not helpful for a drone, yet. There are all sorts of ways to tackle this problem, but all of them are very expensive when you're dealing with military contractors. And not enough is known publicly about the drones to know if it is worth the expense. If the electronics is mostly off the shelf with extra shielding, and they load all the software into volatile RAM before takeoff, then it might not be a major intelligence loss if they lose one or two planes now and then. A backup satellite that can transmit when heavy interference is detected but that the enemy wouldn't be planning to jam might be a better investment, so that the location of the jamming signal can be transmitted.

  3. Thanks a lot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Thanks a whole bunch, Treyarch, way to give the terrorists awesome ideas. Maybe next time make a game called Rainbow Factory: Gumdrop River 2 and we don't have to cower in fear everywhere we go ^ ^,

    1. Re:Thanks a lot by BanHammor · · Score: 1

      So, has Effel Tower fallen lately? I may be late for the news.

  4. Iran already did it by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1, Redundant

    That's how they brought down that blended-wing-body drone a while back.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  5. but military drones don't use unencrypted signals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So yes you can fool a civilian drone or airliner this way (but they have access to other navigation technologies like marker beacons). But it won't work on military systems.

    I wonder if we'll ever have a civilian system using an encrypted public/private key system where the public key is distributed to all equipment manufacturers?

  6. "the big worry" described above by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Informative

    isn't that exactly how Iran caught that US drone a few months ago?

    google...

    tada:

    http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/12/15/2013249/us-sentinel-drone-fooled-into-landing-with-gps-spoofing

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:"the big worry" described above by slashmydots · · Score: 2

      Or you could have not googled it and just read the 2nd paragraph of TFA: "The same method may have been used to bring down a US drone in Iran in 2011."

    2. Re:"the big worry" described above by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that no one knows for sure whether that actually happened. Yes, the Iranians claim that's what they did, but it is unlikely for two reasons: the article specifically mentions that military GPS signals are encrypted (although it wouldn't be the first time that the military decides to use unencrypted channels to send/receive live drone information), and the Iranians are... well, prone to exaggerating their achievements. I'm much more of the opinion that the drone malfunctioned, crash landed, and the Iranians went "PR Jackpot!".

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    3. Re:"the big worry" described above by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      reading TFA is not allowed according to slashdot cultural norms. who are you stranger?

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    4. Re:"the big worry" described above by andydread · · Score: 2

      It could also be possible that if you jam the encrypted military signals the drone may fallback to civilian unencrypted signal recognition in an attempt to return to base then you spoof unencrypted signal and voila. Drone lands.

    5. Re:"the big worry" described above by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *Ahem!*

      SOMEONE knows for sure what actually happened. In fact no less than TWO people know what happened.

      Two guys in an elevator, and one guy farts. Everyone knows who did it.

    6. Re:"the big worry" described above by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 2

      The problem is that no one knows for sure whether that actually happened. Yes, the Iranians claim that's what they did, but it is unlikely for two reasons: the article specifically mentions that military GPS signals are encrypted (although it wouldn't be the first time that the military decides to use unencrypted channels to send/receive live drone information), and the Iranians are... well, prone to exaggerating their achievements. I'm much more of the opinion that the drone malfunctioned, crash landed, and the Iranians went "PR Jackpot!".

      Dont make the mistake of thinking the Iranians are a bunch of ill educated goat herders and dirt farmers I'm sure some of them are ill educated but the Iranians have some pretty intelligent CS and math people, I have met some of them. If the Iranians or anybody else could really hack the encrypted data streams on these drones like those UT researchers seem to be suggesting then the pilotless airforce concept is in trouble (never been a big fan myself). People keep talking about drones as if, when you loosa a squadron of them, you can just break out a new one like a six pack of beer. The problem is that a drone that has JSF or F -22 level tech also has a JSF or F -22 level price tag plus you defenitely do not want a whole brace of them to be hijacked by the enemy and captured in foll working condition along with their precious top secret tecnology and radar absorbant materials.

      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
    7. Re:"the big worry" described above by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very unlikely. They have a compass, airspeed sensors, and inertial sensors, in addition to the GPS. You can vote sensors against each other. So if the GPS is significantly in disagreement with the other 3, you vote in favor of the 3 and ignore the GPS.

    8. Re:"the big worry" described above by radtea · · Score: 2

      I'm much more of the opinion that the drone malfunctioned, crash landed, and the Iranians went "PR Jackpot!".

      Likewise, the US security-industrial complex has a long history of vastly overstating the difficulty of defeating or reproducing American technology, starting with the A-bomb, which the Russians weren't supposed to get for decades (it took them a couple of years, thanks to some well-placed spies) and the H-bomb (primarily due to careful analysis of fall-out from atmospheric testing, which allowed them to reverse-engineer the basic structure in some detail.)

      Unless you're going to claim that Iranian scientists, engineers and spies are somehow all completely incompetent, you have to admit that it's more-or-less a tie as to who is more likely lying in the case of the American drone captured by the Iranians.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    9. Re:"the big worry" described above by Mabhatter · · Score: 1

      But drones are flown by operators in windowless offices... They don't have a sense of "space". They get number from ABC agency and maybe a Satillite picture.. They don't "need to know" the rest.

      All you'd have to do is keep corrupting some of the GPS signals. Just "lean" it off course. The operator only has numbers... They won't KNOW they are not flying in a line, which is why it wouldn't work for airplanes so well because pilots usually know where they are going by sight.

      Also, they use drones specifically because they use a lot of non-military hardware. Mostly because it's cheaper, but also so the truly secret stuff doesn't get lost. While a plane may have those security features, I'd doubt they put that on drones.

    10. Re:"the big worry" described above by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      GPS signals are weak, and as such can be easily disturbed by simple jamming: broadcasting noise at that frequency range. So that part is very plausible.

      Giving it fake GPS signals (i.e. valid but wrong data), not so much. GPS relies on satellites, with high-precision timed signals, and needs to receive multiple signals at a time to get a location. That means the jammers basically need a GPS transmitter, and I don't think they're easy to come by. The only ones that I know to exist are circling around our planet.

      The encryption is probably not too hard to overcome: jam the military (encrypted) signals, feed fake civilian (unencrypted) signals. Very likely that civilian signals are fall-back. But creating valid signals, that's the problem.

      Blocking/jamming other communication: well that's of course also a no-brainer. You just have to find the correct frequencies to jam.

      So all in all your malfunction-theory is very plausible.

    11. Re:"the big worry" described above by pmarcondes · · Score: 1

      The frequency and structure of GPS messages are well documented. I can't see where it would be difficult to build such a transmitter.
      Unless the military upgrades their signal to some sort of broadband, frequency-hopping, encrypted stuff, this WILL happen again.

    12. Re:"the big worry" described above by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      the article specifically mentions that military GPS signals are encrypted

      Nobody really thinks they broke the encrypted GPS. They think they jammed all signals to the drone and then fed them a spoofed GPS signal for the failsafe 'return to base' condition. Since the signals were jammed, the remote destruct instruction couldn't get through. Who wants to be the guy who is disarming the self-destruct on the drone while the signal jammer is still running?

      Of course, all this is fairly impressive for people who live in sand huts and spend their days searching for muddy water.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    13. Re:"the big worry" described above by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2

      I wouldn't necessarily say it is a tie, it's more something that we can't really much about. Your thesis is completely valid as well - that the US military just has a shitty navigation system that thinks GPS is either unjammable or unspoofable. However, in the absence of solid evidence, I tend to favor the simpler explanation: that the drone malfunctioned, and Iran got some free PR out of it. Occam's razor, if you will.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    14. Re:"the big worry" described above by FreeFire · · Score: 2

      There's a third reason it's highly unlikely to have happened the way the Iranians said; there was only 1 drone crashed. There's never been another.

    15. Re:"the big worry" described above by jd · · Score: 1

      Ah, but -accessing- it is. That's why we have the Slashdot Effect. Once you access it, and thus help melt the server, reading is neither required nor advised.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    16. Re:"the big worry" described above by slashmydots · · Score: 2

      But you're forgetting the revised amendment that states if 25 posts have not yet been registered, you're actually not allowed to read the summary either. You have to base your comment 100% on the title only.

    17. Re:"the big worry" described above by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TFA? What's that? Is that kind of like the TSA?

    18. Re:"the big worry" described above by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      The drone does not need to be as large as a regular aircraft because it has no pilot hence it will be less visible to radar and need less stealth technology to have the same invisibility to radar. Since the drone has no human it can do high-G maneuvers that would incapacitate or kill a human pilot. If the drone is downed you have no human casualties. All of these facts mean drones will be used one way or another.

    19. Re:"the big worry" described above by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Who is to say they didn't stop flying the damned things until they could figure out the cause for the crash? It isn't like there were supposed to be many of them flying after all. The project was secret enough that you can find no official US government photos of that drone type.

    20. Re:"the big worry" described above by downhole · · Score: 1

      Either is certainly possible, and probably both are at least a little true. I'd come down more on the US side on this one, though. I could buy that Iran could jam or maybe spoof GPS, but a fully working attack that will actually cause the targeted drone to land normally at a site of the attacker's choosing without any testing or trial and error on the targeted hardware seems unlikely.

      --
      I don't reply to ACs
    21. Re:"the big worry" described above by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. It's much more comforting to think that super-duper advance foreign hackers were not the cause and that the real cause was...nothing in particular...it just sort of...crashed.

    22. Re:"the big worry" described above by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      The time part is of utmost importance when it comes to GPS signals. After all it's the time difference at which signals arrive which allows the receiver to calculate its location. Getting the correct timing is the trick, and may not be so easy to do.

      An organisation like the Iranian government will likely be able to pull it off - I do expect them to have a few atomic clocks around. A random insurgent/terrorist/freedom fighters/guerilla group (name them depending on which side you are) will have more issues getting it done.

    23. Re:"the big worry" described above by plover · · Score: 1

      Having atomic clock precision is not needed just for some short duration spoofing. GPS signals containing the satellite ephemeris are updated only every two hours, which gives you an idea of the window a spoofer would have to work in. Anyway, if it were, Symmetricom has developed an atomic clock on a chip that they could use. But what would be far more useful would be having the P signal's encryption broken, and there's no evidence that anyone has ever broken it.

      Without breaking the encryption, the most you could try would be a sophisticated replay attack: having an earth-based receiving station collect the GPS L1 and L2 signals, forward those signals to another earth-based station to retransmit those signals to the target, and then you start physically moving the receiver and transmitter antennas to change its location. But you'd have to get the target to accept your fake transmitter's signals instead of the real signals it's already synchronized to, meaning both the receiver and transmitter would have to be physically very close to the target at the start of the attack. Keep in mind that the target in this case is a drone flying perhaps several hundred miles per hour (I assume they're fast but not supersonic.)

      I suppose it could be done if the receiver and transmitter were on two separate aircraft, and they got close enough to the drone flying a parallel course. Once they were near the drone, they could transmit some bursts of interference, while slowly bringing up their transmitter's power to eventually convince its GPS receiver that they were the legitimate signals. Then the receiving aircraft could start slowly heading in the direction they wanted to steer the target, while the transmitter continued to fly parallel to the drone.

      But if they could get close enough to pull off this attack, they would certainly be close enough to shoot it down. Spoofing the GPS would not give them command and control authority over the drone, so it's not like they'd ever be able to put its gear down to land it. Why bother with the sophisticated electronics and difficult aerobatics just to get it to crash anyway, if you can simply fly up to it and throw a slug into its engine?

      Of course this is assuming the drone has no on-board radar to detect such nearby aircraft as threats, which is not likely. And because you can't fool a gyroscope, any GPS tampering would still conflict with the drone's inertial guidance system; so it would be completely unknown to anyone, including the Iranians, how the drone would behave if the GPS systems were attacked. And all this is assuming that the drone has no self-destruct capabilities and that it wouldn't be destroyed by the Air Force the moment it was compromised.

      There is very little of the story that they "captured a US drone via GPS spoofing" that is believable.

      Given the source is Iran, there are two much more plausible explanations; the first of which is that a US drone suffered a mechanical failure and Iran recovered it. The other potential explanation is they created a sophisticated P.R. campaign to impress their neighboring Islamic brethren, built a full sized fiberglass model based on a 1/144 scale model, and lied about bringing it down via technical measures so that their followers will believe them to be smarter than the Americans. It could even be a mix of both, with them having the PR campaign lying quietly ready until the US lost a drone somewhere near Iran (which was bound to happen.)

      --
      John
  7. Didn't Iran do this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Like, 6 months ago? If I remember it was a proper predator 2, even, not some experimental prototype.

    Also, use it on the wrong people? I would imagine those getting fired at with hellfire missels from unknown planes silently circling and spying with robotic eyes would think, "gee, THOSE guys are the 'wrong people'"

    1. Re:Didn't Iran do this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they most likely didn't. And no, it wasn't. Wow, you just can't even google, can you?

  8. solution by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    It's difficult but not really all that difficult relatively speaking to slap an encrypted GPS transmitter on a weather or spy satellite. Since another slashdot article says we're running low on Earth-monitoring satellites for weather and stuff, the government always wants more spy satellites, and now they need an expanded encrypted GPS network, they could possibly justify launching a do-it-all satellite for cheaper than 3 separate ones. I believe cost was the reason all 3 of those haven't been launched much lately.

  9. Unencrypted GPS by SirGarlon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is anyone else troubled that civilian planes use unencrypted GPS and are therefore susceptible to spoofing?

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    1. Re:Unencrypted GPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean, *one* could crash airplanes into tall buildings with just $700 worth of equipment?

      Wow, I hope the bogeymen don't find out about this.

      I mean, that would render the TSA redundant?

    2. Re:Unencrypted GPS by asynchronous13 · · Score: 2

      No. GPS on civilian aircraft is a secondary system. Even with complete GPS blackout (or spoofing), the pilot in command still has all of the primary sensors available for navigation.

    3. Re:Unencrypted GPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not anywhere near as much. In the end, a civilian plane has a pilot who can look at his GPS, look out the window, and realize "A != A", while a drone is far more restricted in that it's designed to cut -out- the human failsafe.

      People are valuable. Don't underestimate their drive not to screw up massively. Or take a trip to Iran.

    4. Re:Unencrypted GPS by f3rret · · Score: 1

      Is anyone else troubled that civilian planes use unencrypted GPS and are therefore susceptible to spoofing?

      Not really no, because civilian planes also tend to have pilots in them who might notice that they aren't in the right spot.

      --
      Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
    5. Re:Unencrypted GPS by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 1

      You don't even need the equipment. All you need are two things: fear, surprise and an almost fanatical devotion to...wait, all you need are three things....

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    6. Re:Unencrypted GPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless they're JFK Jr.!

      Oh too soon?

    7. Re:Unencrypted GPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Generally they'll maintain altitude, start alerting of a failure and demand pilot intervention. You'd have to slowly distort the signal so that it looks like a direction change instead of an instant jump, and the plane then tries to compensate.

      The reason this isn't a huge risk is because of the geographical area involved. If you need to do this slowly, you need to stay within spoofing range for quite awhile.

    8. Re:Unencrypted GPS by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

      Meh, not really. Eventually the plane's dead reckoning system (estimation of where the plane is in 3-space based on air speed, compass heading, and altimeter) will start to diverge quite a bit from what the GPS says.

      Standard procedure at that point is to believe the dead reckoning system, start using "traditional" methods to determine your location, and ignore the GPS.

      In short, your instruments are to be believed over the GPS.

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    9. Re:Unencrypted GPS by Githaron · · Score: 1

      Not really. They have human pilots as backup.

    10. Re:Unencrypted GPS by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      1) The GPS in real aircraft (small cheapo drones use cheapo GPS) does self-integrity monitoring. So far we only know they spoofed a consumer-grade (or equivalent) GPS. No indication that they defeated a RAIM-enabled unit. (e.g. spoofing it without triggering an alarm)
      2) Most such aircraft also have a fairly robust inertial navigation system the GPS is checked against. (often this is checked as part of the RAIM monitoring process)
      3) In the case of manned aircraft not on an instrument approach, you need to defeat the Mk1 Eyeball in addition to the GPS and INS.
      4) In the case of manned aircraft on instrument approach - most airports still also have legacy ILS.

      In short - spoofing a civilian aircraft without causing a "my instruments are fucked, pull up" pilot response is orders of magnitude more difficult than this hack.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    11. Re:Unencrypted GPS by CompMD · · Score: 2

      Its becoming a primary system. As the FAA decommissions radar stations and other navaids, GPS and ADS-B interrogation are replacing those technologies and services. Similarly, small aircraft can use GPS for precision approaches in instrument meteorological conditions instead of ILS. Many small airports don't have ILS runways, and many small civilian aircraft aren't equipped to use ILS. In the case of a GPS approach, if a fix is lost or wrong, the pilot must abort the landing and execute a missed approach.

      FD: I'm a pilot and engineer with a background in avionics.

    12. Re:Unencrypted GPS by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Is anyone else troubled that civilian planes use unencrypted GPS and are therefore susceptible to spoofing?

      Just as troubled as I am that people think the use of encrypted signals will make any difference.

      What does any GPS receiver do? It measures the propogation delay of radio signals. This means understanding those signals is not necessary to delay them sufficiently to fool them.

    13. Re:Unencrypted GPS by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      No.

      I don't mean to be derogatory, so please don't take it that way, but your question reminds of that scene in "The Net" where the bad guys hack the pilot's navigation system, and even though the weather is severe clear, the pilot flies his airplane into the chimney of a factory. If you are flying IFR (in bad weather, where you can't see obstacles outside in time to avoid them), you aren't going to have a single system of navigation, and you will be comparing those nav systems against each other. In an airliner, that means pilotage, GPS and VOR/DME at a bare minimum, possibly INS as well. There's also a really good chance that anyone flying IFR will be under radar surveillance and guidance from air traffic control. If you are flying in good weather, spoofed GPS isn't going to fly your airplane into an obstacle unless you are asleep at the wheel because you can see what's outside.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    14. Re:Unencrypted GPS by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Not to speak ill of the dead, but JFK, Jr. was a marginally trained, marginally experienced pilot with way too complex an airplane for his skill level, flying a difficult route (relatively speaking) in poor weather and, IIRC, while suffering a medical condition (wasn't his ankle broken or something?). Over water, at night, with low ceilings and poor visibility with very little night or bad weather experience is an accident waiting to happen...and it did.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    15. Re:Unencrypted GPS by jd · · Score: 1

      Nobody expects the Skynet Inquisition!

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    16. Re:Unencrypted GPS by jd · · Score: 1

      Given that ILS was first developed in the mid 1930s, there's really no reason why any small aircraft build after about 1970 should not have had it included as standard or why any earlier aircraft could not have it retrofitted at minimal expense.

      The FAA has become a joke. Radar operators fall asleep on duty on a regular basis because of understaffing. The equipment is old and poorly maintained. It is a testament to the skill of pilots that there are as few crashes as there are, but it is only a matter of time before luck and pilot skill prove insufficient.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    17. Re:Unencrypted GPS by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Not as long as there's somebody sitting in the cockpit going, "Hey, it looks like we're going to crash into that building. I think I'll pull up," we should be okay.

  10. money by Max_W · · Score: 1

    Drone's URL, USB key-stick, log-in and password theoretically can be bought.

    Certainly, we entertain an idea that there are no traitors, who sell information for money, but it happened before.

  11. They're aren't any "right" people. by pigiron · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Drones raining death from the sky shouldn't be killing *any* people.

  12. Who are the right people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See title.

  13. Re:but military drones don't use unencrypted signa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is plane wrong. One of the drones sends the video stream back unecrypted and it was a large issues quite recently. Also all GPS signals are unencrypted. How people took this long to realize it is beyond me. I knew this was possible back in high-school I just didn't realize it would be so cheap to do.

  14. I don't see the problem here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not that all drones are used on the right people nowadays.

  15. A paper on this from 2002 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Here's a paper on this from 2002.

    All they did was purchase a commercial GPS simulator, which is used by companies to develop their GPS receivers and is easily attainable. They just connect an antenna to the simulator and beam it at the direction of a GPS receiver, jam the receiver so it loses current lock, and then it'll be spoofed once it locks onto your antenna. I always thought you needed to do some super complicated math and use multiple sources since GPS relies on careful timing information to get position, but the commercial simulator handles it all for you.

  16. Re:AMERICA, FUCK YEAH! by BanHammor · · Score: 1

    Why not? It's not like they have a fundamental disability.

  17. Jamming vs Spoofing by habig · · Score: 1

    it also means that it wouldn't be too hard for [a very skilled person] to work out how to un-encrypt military drones and spoof them

    Jam? Sure. But one of the reasons millitary grade hardware is so expensive redundant systems, take one out, you can still function. In this case, very good interial navigation systems.

    But "not very hard" to break military grade encryption on something as vital as the defense channel from GPS satellites... if that's easy we've got bigger problems than rogue drones. They're not using WEP, after all.

    1. Re:Jamming vs Spoofing by habig · · Score: 1

      Bleh - I even previewed that post. "interial" -> "inertial".

    2. Re:Jamming vs Spoofing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh but come on. I just "hacked" my next-door neighbor's unencrypted wi-fi, so it obviously wouldn't be too hard for [a very skilled person] to work out how to hack into classified pentagon computer systems. Based on my simplified proof-of-concept, of course. They're virtually the same thing!

  18. Drones by AdmV0rl0n · · Score: 1

    Cheap assed weapons, built by lowest cost contractors, flown by kids who are probably on low pay, and in an enviroment that pandering to the lowest user operations. They already changed from Windows to Linux due to malware/virus infestation.

    None of any of it is impressive. I think any serious nation state, or indeed well padded grouping could probably dig for some extended time and develop counters and counter operations against drome based operations.

    And I suspect that somewhere in the drone ops, there are radio or systems that are actually very old, and have major flaws, and there will be aspects of the drone be it GPS or otherwise that are achillies heels.

    That and the fact that someone one day will realise that a real airforce with real aircraft kill capacity would eliminate drone fleets on an industrial scale. Especially in 5-10 years when 'clever' Generals and Politicians have concluded that they can do away with airforces almost totally and just have a bunch of drones.

    Everything in warfare is the established case of counter, then counter again.

    --
    We`re all equal .. Just some of us are less equal than others.
    1. Re:Drones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cheap assed weapons, built by lowest cost contractors...

      I can just imagine how much harder you'd be crying about them if they weren't built by the lowest cost contractors.

  19. Re:but military drones don't use unencrypted signa by Baloroth · · Score: 1

    This is plane wrong. One of the drones sends the video stream back unecrypted and it was a large issues quite recently. Also all GPS signals are unencrypted. How people took this long to realize it is beyond me. I knew this was possible back in high-school I just didn't realize it would be so cheap to do.

    No, the drone sent a video signal to the ground unencrypted (it was intended to be visible to troops, and was presumably unencrypted to allow ease of viewing. Stupid, yes, but it makes a kind of sense). And military GPS signals are encrypted, specifically to prevent spoofing. The P-code the military GPS system uses is encrypted, and has been for years.

    --
    "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
  20. WHO KEEPS THE METRIC SYSTEM DOWN? by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    shhhh, that's why the cancelled The Lone Gunman" series.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:WHO KEEPS THE METRIC SYSTEM DOWN? by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Obviously, the CIA spoofed the GPS of those airplanes that hit the World Trade Center. There were no hijackers.

  21. Exaggerate much? by tomhath · · Score: 1

    FTFA:

    Todd Humphreys and his colleagues from the Radionavigation Lab at the University of Texas at Austin hacked the GPS system of a drone belonging to the university...They demonstrated the technique to DHS officials, using a mini helicopter drone

    So they were able to take control of their own model helicopter. And they hypothesize that IF they could break the encryption of a military drone they could do the same thing. But that's a huge IF.

    It didn't happen in Iran, several drones have crashed in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and I assume several more have crashed in the US. Without a pilot onboard a fairly minor electronic or mechanical problem will bring them down.

    1. Re:Exaggerate much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The drone in Iran did not crash. It was in perfect condition when Iran showed it.

      It was captured.

    2. Re:Exaggerate much? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 2

      You have zero evidence to support your claim.

      The Iranians were VERY careful not to show the underside of the drone, which is the part most likely to sustain crash damage.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    3. Re:Exaggerate much? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2

      The Iranians were VERY careful not to show the underside of the drone, which is the part most likely to sustain crash damage.

      Right. Common wisdom is that they screwed up the altitude calculation on the spoofed GPS signal.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  22. FUD by jklovanc · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This would only work if the drone was using only GPS to fly from place to place. Most drones have a pilot who direct them most of the time and uses GPS to find it's location. A pilot would notice the discrepancy between what the GPS plot shows and what he sees in the camera monitor and assume the GPS screwed up.

    This next statement is just stupid;

    But the big worry is — it also means that it wouldn't be too hard for [a very skilled person] to work out how to un-encrypt military drones and spoof them, and that could be extremely dangerous because they could turn them on the wrong people."

    The way the current system probably works is that it transmits signals similar to the ones from the satellites. To spoof an encrypted drone one can not "unencrypt" it. That would be equivalent to convincing the drone to accept un-encrypted GPS signals. That should be impossible. If someone could send out false data that is encrypted using the same keys and algorithms as the satellites that would ba a major issue as cruise missiles could be spoofed. That kind of spoofing is not something that can be done by "a very skilled person" as it would require knowing the encryption keys.

    The following statement is also bunk;

    The same method may have been used to bring down a US drone in Iran in 2011.

    One can speculate all one wants but that does not make it true. It is much more likely that the drone lost contact with the pilot center and auto landed. Lets use a real life unverifiable incident to support our FUD.

    They also talk about hijacking drones delivering FedEx packages. Fred Smith, CEO of Fed Ex says he wants them but he is nowhere near getting them. Even if they did use drones I bet Fed EX would use the encrypted channel and they would rely on navigation aid other than GPS as verification.. If you want to scare us at least talk about something real.

    We have plenty of real things to worry about rather than to fall for FUD.

    1. Re:FUD by radtea · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We have plenty of real things to worry about rather than to fall for FUD.

      The problem is you have nothing to counter the FUD but RUC: Reassuring Unsupported Claims.

      "You bet"... FedEX would encrypt them, eh? I'm glad you feel that your gambling problem is relevant to this discussion of actual reality, but I have no idea why you think it is. Neither I nor anyone else cares what your bet is. We care what FedEX will actually do, when it comes time to deploy drones with software supplied by the lowest bidder.

      Furthermore, while FedEX may be some years from getting drones, closing our eyes to the potential problems in the meantime doesn't help. FedEX or someone like them will get drones. This is a certainty. That they don't have them now is irrelevant.

      I'm also grateful that you have informed us so authoritatively as to "the way the current system probably works." I'm sure you have a very good imagination, but what you imagine and what is real are unrelated. No one is interested in what you imagine. We only care about what is real, which you have told us nothing about.

      Your whole post is classic security-industrial bluff and bluster, full of RUC, but no more substantive or meaningful than the FUD you claim to dispute.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    2. Re:FUD by Necron69 · · Score: 0

      Exactly! DRONES ARE NOT ROBOTS. THEY HAVE PILOTS!!!

      God, how stupid are so many people, especially reporters, that they don't seem to get that? Spoofing a GPS signal does not give you control over the pilot.

      Necron69

    3. Re:FUD by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      There is also a defense against such hacking.

    4. Re:FUD by CXI · · Score: 1

      Is this where I come in and point out something about straws and men? I've been away for a while so it's taking a while to come back to me...

    5. Re:FUD by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      How about this paper which shows how the spoofing works (exactly as I stated) and the defense against it.

      Fed Ex does not have drones right now. When and if they get autonomous drones they can open themselves up to billions of dollars of lawsuits by using the civilian channels which can be spoofed or they can do their fiduciary duty and use the military channels. Since no one has made the decision as to which course to take, all we can do is speculate. I speculate they will want to protect their company and use the military channels.

      No autonomous aircraft would ever be allowed to fly using only one source of location information. What happens if the GPS system goes out for some reason like s solar storm or massive hacking by a belligerent country? Would it be acceptable for all GPS only autonomous aircraft to fall out of the sky? There will always be backup navigation devices and if they do not agree to a certain degree an alarm will go off and the aircraft will be remotely piloted. There is no way an autonomous aircraft will be allowed to have a single point of failure that is this important.

      We only care about what is real, which you have told us nothing about.

      If you "care what is real" then do your own research. There is this thing called Google that can help you with that.

    6. Re:FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah like the military is going to open up their channels to FEDEX you blithering incompetent idiot. only a complete moron would think fedex would use military GPS with rotating keys.

    7. Re:FUD by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      This would only work if the drone was using only GPS to fly from place to place. Most drones have a pilot who direct them most of the time and uses GPS to find it's location. A pilot would notice the discrepancy between what the GPS plot shows and what he sees in the camera monitor and assume the GPS screwed up.

      Naturally that signal was jammed, so the drone was flying on its own.

      That would be equivalent to convincing the drone to accept un-encrypted GPS signals.

      You like it would be forced to if the encrypted ones were being jammed for some reason?

      that would ba a major issue as cruise missiles could be spoofed

      They mostly use terrain following and dead reckoning, but yes, it is a concern.

      It is much more likely that the drone lost contact with the pilot center and auto landed.

      So it was programmed to auto-land when the control signal was jammed? Seems pretty dumb as it would be landing in enemy territory.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    8. Re:FUD by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      So it was programmed to auto-land when the control signal was jammed? Seems pretty dumb as it would be landing in enemy territory.

      That is why most military drones that are flown over enemy territory have a self destruct mechanism which is armed at by the pilot. At sufficient levels of damage or malfunction the drone will destroy itself. During missions over friendly territory this mechanism is never armed. It looks like the pilot did not arm the self destruct when the aircraft entered enemy territory.

      So someone would trust a drone that has the video jammed and the military GPS channel jammed to fly back to base? I highly doubt that.

    9. Re:FUD by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      What if you spoof the GPS signal and jam the C^2 channel as well?

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    10. Re:FUD by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Gotta love someone who stoops to insults to get a point across.
      If it could mean the life and death of thousands of people, a drone crashing into a building, the government may be persuaded to allow limited civilian use of military channels.. The US Forrest Service uses military GPS receivers.
      After a look into this a bit further, there is a new GPS system going into operation called L5. It uses two existing frequencies plus the new frequency to create a triple redundant system. It would be very difficult to spoof all three channels. If they all go down then the drone would revert to other systems like inertial navigation and or radio beacons..

    11. Re:FUD by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Even if they did use drones I bet Fed EX would use the encrypted channel and they would rely on navigation aid other than GPS as verification.

      Would they? I rashly assume that the military would not appreciate civilian companies having access to their encrypted channels.

      This is not a big deal--at the moment--but it is definitely something to keep in mind. With more Drone-like aircraft being used for police and civilian purposes, most of which do not have the same military-grade encryption, and as we put more and more trust into ground-based automated equipment (self-driving cars and the like), the question of "What happens when someone maliciously jams signals?" comes into play.

    12. Re:FUD by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Read a couple of my other posts on this subject but I will summarize here;
      1. The US Forest service uses the military channels on some of their equipment.
      2. There is a defense against the spoofing that is not implemented on all receivers.
      3. There is a replacement for the currennt channel that uses 3 frequencies and can not be spoofed by the current technology.

      Ground based equipment is a bit different than an aircraft as ground based equipment can just use vision to pull over to the side of the road. Thay can also move slower to use vision and inertial navigation to get to their destinations. Neither options are really possible for an aircraft.

  23. Sensationalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I certainly don't see how the skills necessary to broadcast a spoofed GPS signal relate to cracking the encryption of the military GPS. Also, inertial information can be used. The original post about the drone in Iran talks about this a lot:

    http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/12/15/2013249/us-sentinel-drone-fooled-into-landing-with-gps-spoofing

    This seems a little sensationalist.

  24. but this one goes to 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That WHHHHHOOOOOOOOSSSSSHHHH you just heard was the sound of a hijacked drone making a low pass before unleashing a hellfire missile to recalibrate your sarcasm detector.

  25. GPS spoofing a problem? Use more than just GPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    BAE Systems is developing a navigation system that uses "signals of opportunity" Wired has an article describing the system: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-06/29/bae-gps

  26. The Solution by Scutter · · Score: 1

    Clearly, the solution is to arrest and prosecute the researchers and pretend that this isn't a giant security hole. That way, the company's profits will still be protected and they won't have to spend more R&D money on fixing the problem.

    --

    "Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
  27. No Need to decrypt by iceco2 · · Score: 1

    We have no reason to believe encrypted GPS signals can be decrypted easily, but that doesn't mean they can't be spoofed.
    You can record them and play them on a delay of your choosing (with higher local signal strength)
    Since GPS positioning is all about the relative delay if you control the delay you don't need to decrypt the signal of create your own.
    The comments also mentioned their is a pilot normally in control of the drone,
    but since the pilot is connecting remotely the control signal can theoretically be jammed, at which point the drone will normally
    try to assume a predefined course.
    Obviously there are technical difficulties, but one theory is that this is exactly what the Iranians did to the US drone a while back.
    There are countermeasures available but this is a very real threat.

    1. Re:No Need to decrypt by timmy.cl · · Score: 1

      GPS signals include the time. Replaying encrypted signals that include time information can be trivially detected. Now, if encrypted stuff only includes positioning data, then just spoof the unencrypted time+position, plus replay encrypted position.

  28. Re:but military drones don't use unencrypted signa by kasperd · · Score: 1

    And military GPS signals are encrypted, specifically to prevent spoofing.

    Encryption doesn't prevent spoofing. When people who thinks it does are involved with designing cryptographic systems we end up with insecure systems that are broken the first time somebody knowledgeable looks at it.

    You can add message-authentication-codes or digital signatures to your data. That will ensure the data is authentic, but it won't stop replay attacks.

    If you replay the authentic signals a little bit delayed and with a little bit more power than the authentic signal, you can throw off the navigation even without knowing the actual meaning of the signal.

    To protect against that sort of attack, you are going to need a challenge response protocol. The receive will need to send a signal to the satellite, and the satellite will need to respond. The roundtrip time will give the receiver a maximum distance between itself and the satellite. With a few such maximum distances the position can be narrowed down.

    --

    Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
  29. Re:AMERICA, FUCK YEAH! by Rei · · Score: 1

    Anyone else remember the story of the Iranian concrete from a while back? Read about how much it blew away the competition at a concrete strength contest and brought the issue to light. 50-60k PSI concrete failure strength is just insane.

    --
    Rock Us, Dukakis.
  30. Re:but military drones don't use unencrypted signa by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    The civilian signal signal has the ability to use selective availability . It is turned off right now but can be turned on at any time and has in times of war to deny GPS information to the enemy. The military channel is also transmitted as accurate as possible but is not available to civilians because it is encrypted.

  31. Re:but military drones don't use unencrypted signa by Baloroth · · Score: 2

    Yes, it does prevent spoofing. How do you send a valid, encrypted signal if you don't have the encryption key? This isn't like public-key encryption where anyone can generate a valid signal: if the encryption key itself is secret, you can't either encrypt or decrypt the signal without knowing it, and that does prevent spoofing. You can jam the signal, sure, but not spoof it. For reference, the source P-code, which is encrypted with the W-code (the details of which are secret) is 720 gigabytes long, and only replays once a week or so (each satellite has it's own P-code). The W-code is significantly smaller, but probably still long enough that brute-forcing it is impossible. A replay attack is impossible, as long as the W-code and the P-code are not in sync (i.e. the encrypted Y-code doesn't repeat, which it doesn't). The result is that the encrypted signal is little better than noise to an observer: you can't fake it.

    The only problem with the current system is that you can't always use the encrypted system alone (you have to lock on to the unencrypted signal first). The modernization of the GPS system is looking to fix that problem, too.

    --
    "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
  32. We're looking at this from the wrong angle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is why we need to remove Critical Thinking subjects from our educational curriculum. If nobody could figure out how to break or fool weak encryption, these sorts of devices could be much less expensive to produce and operate.

  33. Claims may be valid, but very system-dependent. by PseudoCoder · · Score: 1
    I think the article might be a bit sensationalist considering the context is that you are able to spoof your own drone, but I get the general point. Spoofing unencrypted civilian GPS (CA code) is a possibility, but harder after a receiver has a fix. Spoofing unencrypted military GPS (P-code) using the same technique is VERY difficult because of the length of the pattern, but not impossible. Spoofing encrypted military GPS (Y-code) is statistically improbable.

    I'm a UAV guy but not much of an RF guy. Anybody know what chance there is to selectively jam one band while letting the other band pass? I don't think it's very likely, so slim chance of jamming P/Y code to spoof the C/A fallback (if it's being used at all). Frankly, I wouldn't use CA fallback anyways if I suspect jamming. I'd look at my residuals (dead reckoning navigation errors) and try to head towards my pre-defined return home point. Which brings me to my next point.

    If you want it to use the return-home function that results from a lost datalink you need to jam the datalink. And that's still not a landing instruction, just a safe point to fly to in order to reacquire, so spoofing to return-home is unlikely to give you an intact drone.

    To actually command a landing at a certain spot you need to know which coordinate to spoof your GPS towards, which implies that you unencrypted the datalink AND know its packet structure to interrogate, if not redefine, the recovery point, which is pre-programmed during pre-flight checklist and not casually redefined during normal operations.

    In my professional opinion, all this adds up to a high improbability of Iran deliberately bringing down that drone. Unless some incompetent decided to use an unencrypted GPS receiver and datalink on one of the most valuable assets in the inventory. Then I'd have them fired. Out of a cannon.

    --
    "Now, I doubt any of you would prefer a rolled up newspaper as a weapon against a dictator or a criminal intruder."
  34. A question on Drone Building dot mil by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

    Why would you not have some sort of self redact function to fix the problem of a drone going down in hostile territory??

    All you really have to do is program the drone to Explode/Thermite the electronics bay if it reaches Zero Velocity without some sort of HomeBase signal being received (rotate the exact signal on a weekly basis)

    or even put some sort of DeadMan switch in the electronics bay that you have to open another panel (and insert a SafeKey) to disable.

    --
    Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
  35. Re:but military drones don't use unencrypted signa by leonardluen · · Score: 1

    if your signal is vulnerable to a replay attack, then you designed your protocol wrong.

    i recently developed a wireless communication protocol for a project i was working on, you could record and replay the encrypted signals all you want, and it would reject the replayed signal as invalid. you could take it a bit further and if it detects a lot of replayed signals it could alert you that someone is being nefarious.

    simplest solution i can think of...send a timestamp as part of the signal...that time code should always increase, if it doesn't you know something isn't right with the signal and someone is trying to replay it...and if i recall correctly the GPS signal basically is a timestamp...so just do some validation to make sure it always increases, you can even compare it to your internal clock to ensure it increased by the expected amount. **unless you built a time machine

  36. *yawn* by Tmann72 · · Score: 1

    Iran bragged about doing this to the US's drone months ago. *Yawn*

  37. What drone was hacked? by WaffleMonster · · Score: 2

    Am I supposed to be impressed? What drone was it? Why no pictures or any information other than the university owned the UAV. For all I know their "drone" is just a model airplane project a student jury rigged using a cellphone.

    Just to be safe lets go with military drone images on all of these web sites parroting the same story and mention someone from DHS was present as well. What does that matter?

    Was the drone using raim? Did it use other sensors like fluxgates, rlgs to confirm position? Is ANY useful information available?

  38. Easy to Detect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would say that a low cost spoofing solution should be easy to detect by a half decent drone design even when you don't use encrypted position codes (which would be unlikely). For a start, a signal that was stronger from below the horizon than in the air are not trustworthy, after all, what obstacles are above a drone? Any signal that causes extreme difficulty in the equations that resolve an accurate space and time fix converging can be marked as untrustworthy too. Also any space and time fix that doesn't also correlate with the inertial guidance can be marked as untrustworthy(with modern mems technology, who wouldn't have this on board ?).

  39. Re:but military drones don't use unencrypted signa by heypete · · Score: 1

    The new GPS satellites no longer have Selective Availability capabilities, or so the government claims (and I have no reason to disbelieve them on this subject).

    Considering that GPS is widely relied upon for aviation, land, and marine navigation, surveying, public safety, and precision timekeeping, I suspect that it would be very unlikely for the government to turn SA or otherwise degrade the accuracy of GPS.

  40. ded reckoning by pmarcondes · · Score: 1

    Portuguese and british were masters of Ded (deduced) reckoning much before the term was even invented. Humans can do that. Why computers can't?

    1. Re:ded reckoning by T-Bone-T · · Score: 1

      Just because humans do it doesn't mean a computer can do it. Humans do some incredibly complex things without giving them a second thought.

    2. Re:ded reckoning by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Portuguese and british were masters of Ded (deduced) reckoning much before the term was even invented.
      Humans can do that. Why computers can't?

      They can. They do. But before they did, the answer was, because the programmers haven't taught them yet.

    3. Re:ded reckoning by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      The cumulative errors everyone is going on about here are far far less than most think with modern INS systems. There are really really accurate even over quite long extended time frames. They are so accurate that to get more accurate you need very accurate gravity maps of the planet to improve them at all.

      How accurate, well that is classified. But you can look up what mil spec INS gyros and accelerometers are. Assuming strap down systems, its on the order of 1 meter per day for aircraft type systems with a perfect gravity map.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
  41. Is there a right people to turn the drone on? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is there a right people to turn the drone on?

  42. Re:but military drones don't use unencrypted signa by SparkEE · · Score: 1

    The problem with the ever-increasing timestamp concept is that it doesn't account for multi-path issues. I thinks the GP's idea of replay is to do it quick enough that it looks like a stronger multi-path version of the signal. However, there are two problems with that I see. 1. Without being able to decrypt the original message and encrypt a new one, I don't see how one would do the replay with any use. 2. Even if you did have the ability to decrypt and encrypt, it would take far too long to do all that an re-transmit in time to fit in the multi-path search window. GP said you could do this without knowing the actual meaning of the signal. I'm not sure what that would accomplish other than either amplifying the signal, or jamming it.

  43. Re:but military drones don't use unencrypted signa by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

    This is plane wrong.

    ROFL! Oh...you mean that wasn't supposed to be a pun? :P

    --
    MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
  44. This drone by DeeEff · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty positive this drone wasn't using very many advanced algorithms. I mean, in the base case, you could easily spoof the unencrypted signal and try to force the drone to change directions. Unfortunately, this really only works when you're using Pseudorange measurements, as opposed to Carrier Phase. Moreover, if there was an INS on the drone as well, this interference problem would become rather trivial.

    When using a GPS, if you notice large gaps where your data suddenly "jumps" from one location to another, it tends to be due to poor satellite geometry, i.e.: you have a cycle slip and you need to reconnect to the satellite and estimate the carrier ambiguity again before you can continue to use that satellite's measurements. Of course, this sort of thing is only detectable if you use Carrier Phase measurements, because Pseudorange can have an expected error of +/-10 metres. Now, suppose you're using Carrier Phase to detect cycle slips, and somebody manages to still spoof the signal. With an INS on board, you can still detect the direction of travel, as well as the acceleration at which you are traveling. If your INS does not agree with your GPS, then it would be assumed that the GPS is erroneous, and thus to ignore it until it starts agreeing again. There should be next to no excuse for somebody to take over a drone other than a mechanical malfunction or shoddy software.

    Lastly, the idea that the military channel (aka P-code / encrypted channel) could easily be spoofed is ridiculous. GPS gives updates for satellite position approximately every 2 hours, if I remember correctly. That means you could effectively update the keys for the encryption every 2 hours, if you were so inclined. On top of that, the bandwidth of the P-code is much higher, and when interference/multipath/noise/spoofed signals try to mess with that, they end up having a far smaller effect on the signal than is given to consumer / civilian channels. Overall, the P-code is really hard to break, since encryption roll over can update very frequently, and noise and other interference can be mitigated quite well. It should also be noted that military based systems use very expensive receivers, often ones that don't track weak signals (that are more easily spoofed) and ones that can track multiple frequencies (L1, L2, L5, L1C, L2C, P-code) as well as multiple systems (GLONASS, GPS, Beidou/Compass, and more). Quite frankly, it's too expensive and too difficult to spoof that many signals and systems, since GLONASS runs on completely different frequencies, and doesn't even use the same type of signals (Amplitude Modulated GPS vs Frequency Modulated GLONASS). Overall, this article is FUD, and shows that the writer doesn't know jack lanterns about GPS.

  45. It doesn't matter how high-tech something is... by Brewster+Jennings · · Score: 1

    People need to understand that just because is high-tech doesn't mean that there's an easy or brute-force countermeasure. People were actually hacking into drone feeds not too long ago, so I'm not really surprised. And it could be the shiniest drone ever, but it only takes one exploitable security flaw ( because someone was lazy or incompetent or rushed to deliver on schedule) to compromise it.

  46. Spoof the altitude by +1000 ft... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah you could spoof the altitude by +1000 ft, so when the drone came in for a landing it would crash into the ground instead. (But make sure your operation is well hidden in a farmhouse somewhere bordering the airport.)

  47. Re:but military drones don't use unencrypted signa by leonardluen · · Score: 1

    With GPS the exact timing of the message is critical as that is how it calculates its position. i suppose if you could retransmit the encrypted message on an extremely short delay and get it to accept your signal because it is the strongest one, you probably could introduce an error into its position calculation, and continuing to do this over time eventually cause it to go off-course.

    that might be a bit difficult to protect against seeing that gps (at least for civilians) is one way communication. it seems even with a challenge/response such as the ggp mentioned, if the enemy can delay the signal by even a fraction of a second, by retransmitting a stronger version, it could throw off the gps calculations. This may even be worse than having it be jammed.

  48. Inertial Navigation? by MarkvW · · Score: 1

    I suppose that's why inertial navigation is such a good backup for any sane person who is going to design a military drone.

  49. Spoofing GPS is useless by tlambert · · Score: 1

    It's useless to spoof the GPS signal unless you know, apriori, where the drone is going. Lying to it about where it is is only useful if you lie to it relative to its destination, unless you are trying to lie it into a target very near the jamming signal source.

    The Iranian spoof worked because the self destruct wasn't armed, and when jammed, the drone was known to be programmed to return to its launch site, which was a known location, and THAT location could be spoofed.

    I imagine that there were a number of experiments in jamming to see what the behaviour of the drone would be when its communications were jammed, and the first several probably had armed self destructs and just blew themselves up. Given that these things are somewhat expensive, they probably stopped arming the destruct, which prevented the jamming from being used as a remote "blow the drone up" trigger. And then after a couple of them returned to base, and it became SOP to not arm the self destruct, the spoofing started, resulting in the drone capture.

  50. Not a military drone! by Matt_Bennett · · Score: 2

    As was pointed out here this was not a military drone. Until they can spoof p(y) code, this is nothing. For just this reason, all military equipment is required to use an encrypted signal (of course, this was as of 10 years ago, when I was still working with military GPS systems)- civilian GPS can be pretty easily jammed and/or spoofed- "civilian" GPS is also called "C/A" or coarse acquisition- which was designed only to get you "about right" before the receiver switches over to the more precise encrypted code. Anti-spoofing is a very important part of true military grade GPS. Many civilian users (surveying companies, particularly) would pay *big* money to get access to this- but they don't get the keys.

    I think this article should be more accurately titled "Texas college hacks insecurely designed civilian drone"

    1. Re:Not a military drone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The civilian GPS systems are more accurate than MANY military GPS systems, this is because selective availability is turned off right now, that means there is no error inserted into the signal, thus systems like the Trimble R4 can get 3mm accuracy (they use the carrier wave for the lock, which is far higher precision than even the P(Y) code), not all receivers do this (and many military ones do NOT). Of course the military has the ability to induce an error into the civilian systems without affecting the receivers (effectively the satellites lie about their position and encrypt the truth, so you have to have to have the keys to figure out how much they are lying, but when they are telling the truth as they are now the keys don't really get you much more).

  51. Re:but military drones don't use unencrypted signa by jd · · Score: 1

    An ounce of fact is worth many tonnes of theory.

    The facts as we know them:

    1. Drones were unquestionably being flown over the area.
    2. The US stated that the drone could not have crashed or shot down as photographs suggested it was highly intact, attempting to falsify the claim on that basis.
    3. It would be possible to force the drone to land if it did not use INS but used unencrypted GPS

    Note that I do not include the Iranians actually capturing a US military drone as a fact. It is not. It is a claim. It might have been a mock-up (as the US claimed) or it could have been a civilian drone of similar type run by one of the many militant and terrorist groups in the region - the US has been known to sell arms to Iranian groups in the past, so cannot be assumed to have not sold "civilian" drones in the present.

    Nor do I include the US using encrypted GPS as a fact - it is not. It is also a claim, the US is very good at overstating such arguments. Groups such as SPAWAR do get exemption certificates for not complying with standards from time to time, so although such a standard may be in place, it requires one piece of paper in some dusty filing cabinet to render it ineffective.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  52. jamming easy, spoofing hard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    generating realistic GPS signals is easy.. a few dozen lines of matlab code. Generating GPS signals that are consistent with the UAVs motion is much trickier. You need to transmit a signal to the drone that shows up with the correct relative time offsets from the satellites. OK, so you get your GPS simulator (cheap.. 1 bit playback from FPGA does it).. synthesize all the satellites with the correct timing for the "spoof" position.. transmit it with a high power transmitter and directional antenna, so it shows up at the drone's receiver with at least 10, but preferably 100 times the power from the real satellites (recall that the GPS antenna is facing up, so you need a fair amount of power, if you're 100 km away). Still not really a challenge.

    Then, you need to fool the drone's flight computer into ignoring the real GPS and reacquiring on yours. It's very hard to "match signals", so your best strategy is to jam the real signal (same transmitter and antenna) forcing it to drop lock, then put your signal in, so it picks it up. Of course, any decent autopilot/nav software is going to be checking the GPS signal after reacquisition to make sure it's "reasonable", so it has to match position and velocity fairly well. Then, you can carefully walk the spoofed signal off (making sure that it remains consistent with the Inertial data from the IMU and the air data from pitot probe and altimeter). It's not entirely clear how you would, for instance, generate a varying set of GPS signals to make the drone fly in a different direction, since it has a magnetic compass. You'd have to fool it into thinking that there's a strong cross wind or something.

    This is all very non trivial.

    Jamming easy.. Sending GPS signals easy. Figuring out what those GPS signals should look like? real hard.. especially in real time.

  53. inglourious basterds by dsmithhfx · · Score: 0

    it sure would be tragic if someone re-pointed one of these things as a drone command center...

  54. Not really all that new news by chemosh6969 · · Score: 1

    Some were suspecting that was how Iran got one of our drones.

  55. James Bond? by SiriusStarr · · Score: 1

    How long before we get a Tomorrow Never Dies-like situation? One would hope that the military models' encryption is sufficiently hardened, but given the security records of pretty much every company out there...

    --
    Fear the penguin.
  56. Re:but military drones don't use unencrypted signa by kasperd · · Score: 1

    Yes, it does prevent spoofing. How do you send a valid, encrypted signal if you don't have the encryption key?

    Look up malleability. There are plenty of papers on the subject.

    --

    Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
  57. Re:but military drones don't use unencrypted signa by kasperd · · Score: 1

    i suppose if you could retransmit the encrypted message on an extremely short delay and get it to accept your signal because it is the strongest one, you probably could introduce an error into its position calculation, and continuing to do this over time eventually cause it to go off-course.

    Exactly.

    it seems even with a challenge/response such as the ggp mentioned, if the enemy can delay the signal by even a fraction of a second, by retransmitting a stronger version, it could throw off the gps calculations.

    The point is that the receiver knows what roundtrip time it got. The adversary can only delay the signal, not speed it up. So the receiver will know that it is within a ball of a certain radius around the satellite. That's a huge ball, several times larger than the Earth. However by having this done against multiple satellites means you'll know your position to be within the overlap between multiple such balls. If you combine that with a somewhat reliable measurement of altitude based on air pressure, you can narrow down the position. And most importantly, you will know how accurate the position is. An attacker can then only make the measurements less accurate, effectively the same as jamming the signal altogether.

    The reason the adversary can only delay the signal is that the legitimate signal would take the fastest possible path. It is not physically possible to send the signal faster than c. If the legitimate signal had not been radiowaves but for example photons in an optic fibre, then speeding up the signal would be possible to an adversary. Some of the suggestions on how to attack flawed quantum crypto hardware involves using a line of sight radio link to speed up the signal in order to compensate for the latency introduced by the eavesdropping.

    --

    Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
  58. Internet! by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    Serious business! ;-)

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  59. Why not just go back to using Loran... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh right.. budget cuts.
    A$$holes.

  60. INS backup by SuperTechnoNerd · · Score: 1

    Would be prudent to have a inertial navigation system to fall back on when its determined the gps data is junk, just like on the big jets...

  61. un-encrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it also means that it wouldn't be too hard for [a very skilled person] to work out how to un-encrypt military drones

    Absolute rubbish. Just because in the movies it takes 5 minutes, doesn't mean it really is possible, even with 100 supercomputers running for a lifetime.
    It takes more than just having a "very skilled" person to break encryption.

  62. Horrifying! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    crash into a building? That's a bit outrageous. I don't know of any drone that uses GPS for obstacle avoidance.

  63. Nine Eleven MkII by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just imagine some patriotic Pakistani able to spoof a USA War machine drone filled with explosives aimed at innocent villagers going peacefully about their lives and revert it into some landmark building in the USA.

    Wonderfully poetic justice.