Home Office To Ignore Wikipedia Founder's Petition Against O'Dwyer Extradition

Time and Place by Dan+B. · 2012-07-02 19:28 · Score: 5, Interesting

So if you do something that is not a crime in your own country, but is in another, yet you never set foot in that country, you can now be extradited? Wouldn't that fall under persecution grounds for asylum? Maybe I should check with the Equadorian Embassy...

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Dan. -- So what if it's spelt wrong, nobody's perfect

Re:Time and Place by kraut · 2012-07-02 19:39 · Score: 5, Funny

> Only so long as the country the alleged crime was committed in is the USA.
There. Fixed that for you.

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Re:Time and Place by L4t3r4lu5 · 2012-07-02 19:44 · Score: 4, Insightful

If I fire a gun from the England border into Scotland and kill someone, you can bet I'll be extradited to Scotland to stand trial for murder.

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Re:Time and Place by cheekyjohnson · 2012-07-02 19:49 · Score: 4, Insightful

Exactly. These people are supposedly guilty of the heinous crime of... copying! Totally worth extraditing someone over, and why not waste taxpayer money doing so? It's not our money!

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Re:Time and Place by Sique · 2012-07-02 19:55 · Score: 4, Insightful

But only because murder is illegal in England too.

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.sig: Sique *sigh*
Re:Time and Place by tehcyder · 2012-07-02 20:09 · Score: 5, Insightful

If I fire a gun from the England border into Scotland and kill someone, you can bet I'll be extradited to Scotland to stand trial for murder.
Isn't the slight difference that murder is a crime in both countries, whereas copyright infringement isn't?

I don't think I've ever heard of anyone being extradited for a civil matter before, although no doubt someone can prove me wrong.

I have zero personal sympathy for this guy. I read an interview recently in which he said he had spent the GBP140K he had earned from his website on "normal student things" like going to the cinema and buying pizza. Which is such a load of bollocks it's a joke..

However, he certainly shouldn't be extradited for this. If this had been the other way round, there is no way he would have been extradited from the US to the UK even if he had committed a real, serious crime.

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:Time and Place by Pseudonym · 2012-07-02 20:13 · Score: 5, Informative

Interestingly, there have been test cases to this effect in Commonwealth countries. There was a famous test case to this effect in Australia, where someone fired a gun on one side of a state border (much of the decision was to decide precisely where the border was) and killed a person who was on the other side.
The murder, it was ruled, happened in the state where the victim was shot.

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Re:Time and Place by Dan541 · 2012-07-02 20:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

Wait until countries like Pakistan and Iran get in on this. All western women will need to be deported for stoning.

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Re:Time and Place by wild_quinine · 2012-07-02 21:26 · Score: 5, Informative

Here are the important facts.
1) O'Dwyer never went to the US whilst running the site. He visited as a small child, but I don't think he has a stronger connection to the US than this.
2) The servers on which his service were being run were not in the US.
Most sensible people would therefore argue that he hasn't comitted a crime on US soil.
But it gets worse. The existing case law in the UK suggests very strongly that the UK does not consider what O'Dwyer did to be a crime. A similar site (TV links) was accused in similar circumstances and let off the hook, because it was deemed to be a 'mere conduit' (Like a safe harbour defense, rather than that deciding that *linking to things is not a crime*, for example).
Now a UK judge has said that O'Dwyer probably was criminal in this case, because he exerted considerable control over the site, and therefore cannot use the same defense.
But that's smoke and mirrors, frankly. The way we figure out if that is a crime or not is to try him in court, not to push him off to some corrupt nation where it definitely is a crime.
Re:Time and Place by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · 2012-07-02 21:27 · Score: 3, Informative

Errr, you do realise that Scotland and England are the same country???
No, they aren't. They are distinct countries, each of which is part of the sovereign state of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

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Re:Time and Place by Nocturnal+Deviant · 2012-07-02 21:38 · Score: 3, Funny

as long as they take the girls in southern jersey, they might convert me to islam.....

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-Noc
Re:Time and Place by Phrogman · 2012-07-02 23:20 · Score: 3, Insightful

Except that as a number of people have pointed out above you, its a considerable question as to whether or not what he is accused of doing was in fact a crime in the UK.
It doesn't matter though, the Media Moguls and their henchmen have enough power to shape the US legal code, and in effect decree foreign policy on issues like this. Legality doesn't apply when the US Empire flexes its might.
Apparently if you do anything, anywhere, that the US Government doesn't like, you *will* be extradited to the US. This is just another example.

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Re:Time and Place by martin-boundary · 2012-07-02 23:47 · Score: 3, Insightful

By that idea, each time some mountain dew swilling military drone 'pilot' bombs some family in Afghanistan, they should be sent over there to be punished for the crime.
The truth is that there are no rules about crimes in the world, just local conventions. The British people should rightly be up in arms about this particular case, as it means their government is selling them out to a foreign power.
Re:Time and Place by tobiah · 2012-07-03 11:10 · Score: 3, Funny

"I read an interview recently in which he said he had spent the GBP140K he had earned from his website on "normal student things" like going to the cinema and buying pizza. Which is such a load of bollocks it's a joke.. "
You clearly haven't been to the cinema recently.

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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool" - Jane Wagner -

The War on Youth by Anonymous Coward · 2012-07-02 19:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

Ah, one more small battle in the War on Youth. Let's see: cameras in the streets, ASBOs, patents that kill new competition, laws against drugs, laws against sharing, laws against resisting arrest, student loans, sugar-laden foods, credit card debt, loss of permanent jobs, the list goes on. The UK and USA lead the world in the War on Youth, which pits the old against the young. Extraditing a couple of "pirates" is just consistent with this theme.

Re:The War on Youth by progician · 2012-07-02 21:26 · Score: 4, Insightful

Strange thing, but there's truth in this. In an other discussion I was wondering that the current trend in demographics in relation to electorate politics creates a political system that is by nature becomes the enemy of the younger generations, and that is easy to show all over Western Europe. Most of the politicians and the people who vote for them were educated on the expense of the budget, that is, "for free". This generation benefited of the welfare state in every way, health case, job protection, rent control, council housing, cheap mortgage and property prices, so they could cut these services with the line "there ain't such thing as free lunch".
Ageing population is a real political concern for the under-thirties generation.
Re:The War on Youth by khallow · 2012-07-03 00:33 · Score: 4, Insightful

Funny how so many social benefits lead to this sort of generational warfare. Education clearly helps the young more while medical care and pensions (especially of the sort that can't be sustained with changing demographics). This is one of the reasons I advocate getting government (well, my government, yours can keeping doing whatever it's doing) out of the entitlement racket.

Among other things, it stirs rivalry between different segments of the population, young versus old, poor versus wealthy, politically marginalized versus the politically connected, uncredentialed versus the credentialed, etc. How are you going to get society-wide cooperation when so many groups are fighting for their piece of government squeeze?

Swap Richard for Bob Diamond by Anonymous Coward · 2012-07-02 19:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

Bet they don't extradite Bob Diamond for overseeing the fraud of vast amounts of money that may actually have done real damage to US citizens, never mind the UK and the rest of the world.

Re:Swap Richard for Bob Diamond by Builder · 2012-07-02 21:16 · Score: 3, Funny

Only one way to find out - get an American judge to issue an extradition warrant. It's not like we just ship them over because we think you'll want them - you have to ask first :)

Re:Conservative party Minister: so pro USA by Anonymous Coward · 2012-07-02 19:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

In America you have the the Republicans, who are the equivalent of our Conservative party, and the Democrats, who are the equivalent of our Conservative party....

Absurd by xenobyte · 2012-07-02 19:56 · Score: 5, Insightful

If a UK citizen can be extradited to the US for breaking US law outside the US while physically never setting foot on US soil, why don't we see people getting extradited to all sorts of countries for breaking their laws while sitting in our homes in our own countries?

Second, extradition is for serious crimes only. Why wasn't the request squashed as it's only related to a civil matter of copyright infringement, not a criminal offense?

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Re:Absurd by Anonymous Coward · 2012-07-02 20:31 · Score: 5, Insightful

Wait, that brings up a thought - why can't Greece extradite Jamie Dimon & Lloyd Blankfein to Greece for their "crimes" at defrauding the country into massive debt? After all, if the US can extradite someone for something as "horrible" as posting *links* to *other sites* that contain copyrighted material, *surely* outright financial fraud ought to be extraditable. :-)
Re:Absurd by Zemran · 2012-07-02 20:37 · Score: 3, Funny

This treaty was created to aid with the extradition of terrorists and we all know that file sharing and terrorism are the same thing.

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Re:Conservative party Minister: so pro USA by Sique · 2012-07-02 20:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

So the UK will extradite car driving women to Saudi Arabia, where it's illegal for women to drive, for better oil purchase conditions too?

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.sig: Sique *sigh*

UK did not extradite... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-07-02 20:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

Be accused of copywrite infringement = UK extradite to USA
Be accused of rape = UK will NOT extradite to USA.

Umm excuse me but this just feels wrong.

Re:UK did not extradite... by Rei · 2012-07-02 21:41 · Score: 3, Informative

To put it another way: "4. Notwithstanding paragraph 1, a person who has been surrendered pursuant to a European arrest warrant shall not be extradited to a third State without the consent of the competent authority of the Member State which surrendered the person. Such consent shall be given in accordance with the Conventions by which that Member State is bound, as well as with its domestic law."
Aka, it still comes down to whether a British court would approve an extradition request from the US according to British law. So either way it's up to British courts to decide on an extradition request for Assange unless Sweden wants to be blatantly and explicitly in violation of its treaty obligations on one of the highest profile cases out there. The Swedish prime minister has already publicly pointed out that it couldn't extradite Assange to the US if it wanted to without British courts handling the US request according to their own law.
The only difference between Assange being in the UK and Assange being in Sweden is that he doesn't have to stand trial for rape in the UK. Despite all of the bluster to the contrary.

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Re:Conservative party Minister: so pro USA by A+beautiful+mind · 2012-07-02 20:41 · Score: 4, Informative

Absolutely. The UK sent people to Libya while Gaddafi was still in power in exchange for lucrative business opportunities.

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Be yourself no matter what they say

Scary by Coisiche · 2012-07-02 21:16 · Score: 5, Insightful

As Dr. Ben Goldacre has just tweeted, "it's the little things like extradition at the behest of a corporation that make you worry the whole world is corrupt".

I think that ship may have sailed.

I admit, I was wrong ! by Taco+Cowboy · 2012-07-02 21:25 · Score: 4, Insightful

First, it was the case of Assange, and now this

The whole thing reads like as if the government of the United Kingdom has lowered itself to the level of being a servant of Uncle Sam

I always thought that, Great Britain, ...

- a place which gave birth to the charter of Magna Carta,

- a place where the legend of King Arthur and his Knights of round table

- a place where the Bard (William Shakespeare) produced his world famous plays

... would be proud of itself

... would take its own national sovereignty very seriously

... would never kow tow to anyone, for any reason ...

After witnessing what transpired in both cases, I have to admit, that I was wrong

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Re:I admit, I was wrong ! by CrackedButter · 2012-07-02 21:29 · Score: 5, Informative

Nobody in our government gives a shit. They are a bunch of cunts.

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Jonathanjk.com
Re:I admit, I was wrong ! by bluescrn · 2012-07-03 00:09 · Score: 3, Informative

They are a bunch of rich, greedy, overprivileged cunts.

FTFY
Re:I admit, I was wrong ! by The+Askylist · 2012-07-03 00:20 · Score: 4, Informative

It was the last lot that signed the extradition agreement in the first place. Why we are extraditing someone for "copyright" offences, which should really be a civil matter, is beyond me. I would have thought that the correct course of action would be for the copyright holders to bring a case for damages in the UK courts and take their chances. This lot, the last lot? They're all cunts by definition. An honest politician is all too rare a commodity these days - the web of intertwined lobbying interests seems to strangle truth at birth.
Re:I admit, I was wrong ! by Ash+Vince · 2012-07-03 00:38 · Score: 3, Interesting

It was the last lot that signed the extradition agreement in the first place. Why we are extraditing someone for "copyright" offences, which should really be a civil matter, is beyond me
Simple really, it is not a civil matter as far as UK law is concerned. You are right in that he shouldn't be getting extradited but that is because he committed all his crimes in the UK, he should be prosecuted in the UK really. The thing is though, what he is accused of is still a crime over here (not a civil wrong or tort), otherwise we would not be allowed to extradite him.
A better idea might be that we tried to get the law changed so this was not a crime over here. I am not 100% sure if the UK public would actually be in favour of us relaxing copyright law though and unfortunately some serious public support would be needed for this sort of change.

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Re:I admit, I was wrong ! by crazyjj · 2012-07-03 02:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

The UK is run by politicians who only care about about their personal money and power.

You just described every politician in every country in the world.

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Legal risk for innovation by Yvanhoe · 2012-07-02 22:09 · Score: 3, Interesting

Congratulation, media industries : you clearly made your point : innovation in media content distribution will not be tolerated, even if it is done according to the laws.

If you were not already boycotting the people behind this, I think you can begin now.

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The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.

Re:Most of the world has no Republican equivalent by BlueStrat · 2012-07-02 22:38 · Score: 3, Informative

The OP was right: the Democrat is right wing in most of the rest of the world, the Republican are Extreme Right wing.

That's because the US was formed by the "radicals" of the 1700's-1800's. The Founders were the OWS of their time. They deliberately chose to avoid the type of central-authority-heavy types of government they were familiar with in Europe that severely restricted individual freedom and kept people mostly restricted to their own socio-economic class, and came at the idea of a central government as simply a necessary evil that should be given only those powers and control over only enough wealth to carry out the bare functions of a national government, and leaving most all other governing to the States and local authorities in order to promote a diverse system where one can find a place that generally governs in a way to suit a particular individual or group.

This totally different outlook caused America to be the place and the culture that so many people around the world wanted to be like and/or immigrate to and become part of for so many decades.

So, of course, Europeans would see the US political landscape as extremist. It is. Or, at least, it was.

Not so much anymore.

More's the pity, too.

Strat

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Re:Most of the world has no Republican equivalent by SuricouRaven · 2012-07-02 23:08 · Score: 3, Insightful

While the modern conservatives believe that a central government should be given enough power to carry out only the bare functions of a national government... except for where drugs are concerned. And banning gay marriage. And regulation of pornography. And broadcast indecency. And funding of abstinance-only programs. And endorsing Christian religion through large taxpayer-funded displays and monuments. And restricting abortion. And about a thousand other things. The social conservatives started drowning out the political conservatives a long time ago.

Re:The ISPs were facilitating copying. by hairyfeet · 2012-07-02 23:12 · Score: 4, Interesting

I would say YES because while i haven't gone to TVShack i have gone to others to see shows i have already paid for by paying for cable TV but simply missed because of one thing or another. I mean why the hell should i shell out money to build a fricking DVR or add extra drives so my PC can do it when i can just use the net to find a show i missed and watch it whenever?

and I thought the whole point of the Betamax ruling was if something had a non infringing use even if others used it differently it couldn't just be banned outright? or did the cartels get that one tossed when i wasn't looking?

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Re:Shock! Horror! by wonkey_monkey · 2012-07-02 23:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

Current UK Prime Minister David Cameron came out in support of McKinnon before he was elected

I've highlighted the most pertinent words.

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Re:Wikipedia Founder by haruchai · 2012-07-03 00:15 · Score: 4, Funny

England never listens to Wales.

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This story is false by jwales · 2012-07-03 03:03 · Score: 5, Informative

Theresa May has not said "NO" and indeed has not responded at all. The report quotes a press release that was issued before my petition was even launched. There has been no response to me at all so far.

Every signature counts as they are clearly feeling the pressure.

Jimmy Wales

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Home Office To Ignore Wikipedia Founder's Petition Against O'Dwyer Extradition

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