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How Open Source Hardware Is Driving the 3D-Printing Industry

TheNextCorner sends this quote from ReadWriteWeb: "Open source software has been a key player in all kinds of disruptive technologies — from the Web to big data. Now the nascent and growing open source hardware movement is helping to power its own disruptive revolution. ... As 3D printing, powered by Arduino and other open source technologies, becomes more prevalent, economies of scale become much less of a problem. A 3D printer can print a few devices — or thousands — without significant retooling, pushing upfront costs to near-zero. This is what The Economist calls the 'Third Industrial Revolution,' where devices and things can be made in smaller, cleaner factories with far less overhead and — significantly — less labor."

199 comments

  1. Material costs - material generally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Currently, the cost of materials for most 3D printers is quite high. That makes 3D printing uneconomical for most purposes.

    The other problem is that most useful things are made of more than one material. Consider even something as simple as a toaster. It requires a good conductor, a resisting conductor, an insulator and structural material. So, even something as low tech as a toaster is well beyond the ability of 3D printers to make at all and especially to do so economically.

    1. Re:Material costs - material generally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Imagine plastic recycling: plastic bags or wrappings shreded and then fed to 3d printers - that's what I am waiting for.

    2. Re:Material costs - material generally by Dynetrekk · · Score: 1

      There are printers which can mix materials out there. Not sure if they're up to 3, but certainly not far from it. Also, I'm not sure if anyone is planning to take on the toaster industry; their mass production is probably more efficient anyway.

    3. Re:Material costs - material generally by Dynetrekk · · Score: 4, Informative

      I was wrong - they're up to 14 simultaneous materials, at least: http://www.objet.com/Objet%20Connex350/

    4. Re:Material costs - material generally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      However it is a hell of a lot cheaper to print a physical object on a 3d printer than it is to try and get one of something you can't buy, manufactured.

      3D printers are great for printing spares when the manufacturer doesn't supply them... and cheaper than buying the whole product again.

    5. Re:Material costs - material generally by LuxuryYacht · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The prices of Photopolymers used in SLA type 3D printers has dropped to below the cost of PLA and ABS used in FDM printers and continues to drop. Photopolymers are dropping to under $10/kg in high volumes, so the costs of the materials are becoming less of an issue.

      It's true that there are several open hardware printer projects for FDM type printers that focus mainly on printing with one material at a time such as
      RepRap or Open Source Photopolymer DLP 3D Printers such as LemonCurry

      3D printers are also printing with more than one material and are already printing multilayer printed circuit boards with only fluids. Much of the development work in 3D printers recently has been from open hardwave projects vs the industry since many of the old patents have now expired.

      --
      Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
    6. Re:Material costs - material generally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all the parts could be made separately using different materials then put together later.Using different conducting and non coducting substances in 3d printers may not be possible now but will probably be available in the near future.(plastic conductors are possible)

    7. Re:Material costs - material generally by RobinH · · Score: 3, Informative

      Then your wait is almost over, as it's been created, and they're ramping it up (and it's open source). Here's the kickstarter link.

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    8. Re:Material costs - material generally by RobinH · · Score: 1

      It looks like the resin material used by the b9Creator is significantly cheaper than the filament typically used in additive 3D printers.

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    9. Re:Material costs - material generally by am+2k · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, this printer seems to be in the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" price category. Not really the home-made category right now.

    10. Re:Material costs - material generally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      So was a Cray Y-MP in the late 80s. Today my $80 Atom board gets similar numbers on supercomputer benchmarks.

    11. Re:Material costs - material generally by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Costs drop as more people demand it. Someone has to start the ball rolling.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    12. Re:Material costs - material generally by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      Why does the manufacturing material have to be Plastic? Why not spolls of metal wire? Or other stuff?

    13. Re:Material costs - material generally by RobinH · · Score: 1

      It's just easy for home/hobby use. There are industrial ones that can print medical grade stainless steel, e.g. as a custom knee joint, etc. There are other types of printers like the b9Creator that prints using a heat sensitive resin. Some people are experimenting with printing a conductive material and actually printing circuits directly. Others are taking the opposite approach and retrofitting their RepRap style 3D printers to mechanically etch copper clad circuit boards. There's a lot going on.

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
  2. Is there an open source hardware specification... by SpaghettiPattern · · Score: 1

    Is there an open source hardware specification of a 3D printer?

    --

    I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
  3. A post scarcity society by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The loss of jobs need not be a bad thing in what is quickly approaching a post scarcity society. Ultimately, perhaps even within the next few centuries, we're going to see a situation where the abundant resources in our solar system are harvested and processed by mostly automated engines, providing an excellent (upper middle class) quality of life for everyone on earth. There is no physical reason why this should not be the case.

    Pollution and environmental concerns would be very minimal with adequate management, energy is abundant, and if anything providing a good standard of living reverses population growth.

    The main difference between that and today, other than a general longer, healthier, better life, would be the types of toys you get to play with if you excel. Obviously not everyone can have their own private ocean liner, there's only so much ocean, so artificial scarcity will need to be introduced by either fiat or economic acrobatics. Overall though we are I believe on the cusp of a golden age.

    1. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is no physical reason why this should not be the case.

      Now if only it'd be that simple.

      At the moment, replacing dangerous and tedious jobs no one really wants by much more effective machines is everything the government and our whole economic system is trying to stop. How did this happen? How are we any better than those in the middle ages when we fight progress in the name of old beliefs of capitalism?

    2. Re:A post scarcity society by slashping · · Score: 1

      There is no physical reason why this should not be the case.

      Sure there is. It's called EROEI, or Energy Returned On Energy Invested. If that's less than 1, there's no point in doing it.

    3. Re:A post scarcity society by cyber-vandal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you could come up with a proposal for feeding and housing all those people who lose their income then you'd be on to a winner. Opposing progress is perfectly understandable when progress will make you jobless and therefore unable to feed, clothe and house yourself. And don't say 'retrain'. That costs money and time, and in the meantime the rent or mortgage isn't being paid.

    4. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Overall though we are I believe on the cusp of a Diamond age."
      There, fixed that for you.

    5. Re:A post scarcity society by Exrio · · Score: 2

      It'll be like living in a zoo, except now the zoo is huge, the animals include humans, and the zoo-keepers are human-invented machines. The question is not if, the question is when. The singularity will undoubtedly overwhelm any silly human politics or economics that try to restrain it.

    6. Re:A post scarcity society by slashping · · Score: 1

      If there's truly no jobs and no scarcity, housing would be free.

    7. Re:A post scarcity society by Ogi_UnixNut · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is always some scarcity, especially with regards to housing (hint: there is a finite amount of land available). Hence I don't think housing (for example) will ever be free.

    8. Re:A post scarcity society by khakipuce · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I suppose this is what one would expect from anyone with "open source space travel" in their sig. We are nowhere near approaching a "post scarcity society", go to Africa or India and tell the significant proportion of the earth's populaton that live in poverty that we are approaching a "post scarcity society"!

      On the 3D printing front, gimme one that prints steel, aluminium alloys, etc. with the structural integrity of their conventially produced equivalents (i.e. not sintered) and I'll start to take this discussion seriously.

      --
      Art is the mathematics of emotion
    9. Re:A post scarcity society by BlackPignouf · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Post-scarcity society" ???
      What a load of bullshit.
      Have you ever heard of peak-oil? Do you realise 80% of our energy demand is covered by fossil fuels? Have you heard of global warming?

      Do yourself a favor, and go read this :
      http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/04/economist-meets-physicist/

    10. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      If you could come up with a proposal for feeding and housing all those people who lose their income then you'd be on to a winner.

      - winner of what? What do you get for feeding and housing people who don't do anything productive?

      How about this: they start doing something other than what they were doing before they got laid off because their particular labour could be done more efficiently without them?

      I don't see what we gain as a society at all by creating incentives for people to live lives without doing anything. What's the purpose, to have them fill all of the available space, so that eventually there is again a problem of 'haves and have nots' in perpetuity?

      People shouldn't be on charity for the entire lives, do you think it is even good psychologically to have a society of people who do nothing, that are clothed, well fed, cared for and they do nothing.

      What is the difference between them and a bacteria colony exactly and why should anybody who produces something care for a bacteria colony?

    11. Re:A post scarcity society by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      Only if the revolution goes well. It could go very badly, depending how the social-economic-political situation works out. Transitioning to a post-scarcity economy would not be easy - it doesn't matter if you can make food, housing and luxury goods for a few cents if almost all the population is unemployed and thus unable to afford even that, and those who do control the production equipment have no incentive to just give away their products for free.

    12. Re:A post scarcity society by slashping · · Score: 2

      Agreed, the premise of the post scarcity society is false.

    13. Re:A post scarcity society by slashping · · Score: 2

      How about this: they start doing something other than what they were doing before they got laid off because their particular labour could be done more efficiently without them?

      There's a limit to what people can learn to do.

    14. Re:A post scarcity society by slashping · · Score: 1

      and those who do control the production equipment have no incentive to just give away their products for free

      "If you give me access to the production equipment, I'll give you your daughter back"

    15. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      They shouldn't have to 'learn to do' anything to figure out what the needs are of people in the market and try and satisfy those needs.

      Again, tell me, what's the difference between say 1 billion people living completely on welfare, not producing anything and a bacteria colony with 1 billion individual bacteria in it? AFAIC the difference is that the people are bigger and require more energy to be sustained, that's it, no other difference.

    16. Re:A post scarcity society by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 2
      Printing with moderate resolution would be a significant advance, and most current machines need a huge amount of labour to operate.

      As someone has already said "they are the solution to making one-offs of an original concept", They do not come within a million miles of mass production for stuff where the requirement is for many.

      Test 1) try to make any part longer than an inch with an accuracy of 1/1000 inch (minimum accuracy required for most production engineering).

      Test 2) Try to make a 3D printed "Mars Bar", with your labour costed at minimum wage - then compare it to the price in the local shop.

      If you pass both tests, apply for a job - you are clearly unemployed but employable.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    17. Re:A post scarcity society by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Opposing progress is perfectly understandable when progress will make you jobless and therefore unable to feed, clothe and house yourself.

      It's understandable, but still foolish. It's clear that we don't need such inefficient workers anymore. Either they find something else to do, or suffer. I don't think "hold back technology" should ever be an option.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    18. Re:A post scarcity society by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      Violent revolution is a very real possibility. On the other hand, it'd basically be a class warfare thing - the capitalists vs the now-unemployed. We've seen that happen a few times in quite recent history, with mixed results, and just because material needs are now easier to meet isn't going to solve so well the severe political oppression that always seems to follow. Even in post-scarcity, someone has to administer the resources - and without some very strict accountability, that much power in so few hands is just inviting corruption.

    19. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Like what? Ultimately once food, clothing, shelter and medical care are covered pretty much anything else you're doing is just shuffling wealth around.

      What we should be doing is reducing the number of hours that people are working and letting them keep more of their income. But, we can't ultimately afford to do it because of things like the WTO and NAFTA which primarily serve to ship money from the US to other countries and ensure that we'll always have poor people.

    20. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "that costs money and time".

      Money is a thing to exchange goods, an abstraction layer. The fact money became a good by itself is absurd and part of the systemic problem since 2008-2012 with the banking crisis, as the crisis concerns making money with money. Unlike a 3d printer making a 3d printer, making money (abstraction layer) with money (abstraction layer), you essentially making expectation with expectation. Therefore, money cannot cost, money is cost, it's solely a value representing an overhead, it cannot cost itself, it represents the cost itself. This is essential to realize.

      Proposal to feed and house the people: feed yourself, and house yourself. Start a garden, and build your own house . . . bypass mortgage by all means (buy the land, build your own house with temporary housing approach and slowly extend it further (prefab approaches)).

    21. Re:A post scarcity society by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      Really, so solar power satellites are physcially impossible to you? Even without that, we could supply all of the world's energy with inefficient PV covering a single digit percentage of the Sahara desert.

      Now before you reply, stop. Think. Am I really suggesting that we run wires to every country on earth from the Sahara, or is that an example to illustrate the point that we are swimming in hugely more energy than our civilisation needs, and this can be arbitrarily scaled up?

      I'm also not talking about next year. Which is a good thing, since fossil fuels won't run out next year either. I did mention the next couple of centuries. I think it could be done a lot sooner with the effort going into say military endeavours being directed more productively, but its coming one way or the other.

      Its not a communist or socialist vision. Its a logistical and realistic one.

    22. Re:A post scarcity society by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      When has class warfare that became violent revolution been anything other than unmitigated disaster for those who lived through it (possibly excepting those very few who ended up on top)?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    23. Re:A post scarcity society by cyber-vandal · · Score: 2

      That is not what I said but then you have to take any argument that doesn't support devil take the hindmost free market dogma and twist it. I said it's understandable that people who are disadvantaged by technological changes would oppose it. Anyone not lacking in empathy like you are knows this.

      That doesn't mean I think we should hold back technology, nor does it mean I'm happy for people to be on welfare their entire lives. Your solution appears to be to let people disadvantaged by technological changes starve on the streets or commit crimes just to eat, my solution would be offer people a bursary to retrain in skills the market does need.

      There's always a shortage of tradesmen in this country but for some reason my government would much rather pay the unemployed a fortune to sit at home than the 5000GBP to train them to do something useful.

      You know what makes me laugh about you libertarians. You are the most selfish bastards I've ever come across, but you have this belief that charity, i.e. generosity, something you can't understand, will replace government social programmes

    24. Re:A post scarcity society by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      You really hate people don't you.

    25. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      Poverty is only a matter of relativity, we are all poor compared to Bill Gates, but compared to a King of 10th century, we are quite wealthy - we have everything that he didn't have, cars, indoor plumbing, TVs, phones, computers, medicine, air travel, etc.etc.

      The best system to increase productivity and push prices down is free market capitalism, governments steal the individual freedoms of people and thus they steal freedoms of businesses and then they sell these freedoms to preferred corporations and lock out the competition. This prevents competition, prevents prices from falling, coupled with inflation (money printing by gov't) this raises prices.

      The gov't is so worried about deflation that its policy is inflation, which causes prices to go up, so how about those 'poor' that gov't is supposedly worried about? (never mind that USA had deflation up until 1913, while competition was huge, productivity was growing, wealth was growing, distribution of wealth was growing (exports and consequentially USA became largest creditor of the time)

      The reason USA capitalists are moving savings and investments out of USA is not NAFTA or WTO, it's US government, with its spending, taxes, regulations.

      As to what people should do once they have medical care, food clothing and shelter - entire industries that were and are still created doing things other than basic survival.

      My point is that having billions of people on welfare, doing nothing, inspiring to nothing (except eating, watching sports and procreation it seems) provides outcome that is indistinguishable from billions of bacteria.

      Maybe bacteria doesn't have 'hopes and dreams', but if the actual OUTCOME of the activity between a human population and a Petri dish with billions of bacteria in it is largely the same (procreation or multiplication and eating), well then, I don't see why should anybody who actually produces something should care to support either those humans any more than he'd be compelled to support the inhabitants of that Petri dish.

    26. Re:A post scarcity society by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      Nor do I. However a large amount of jobless people is a serious social problem, and unlike roman_mir, who never leaves his house, I'm a bit concerned about the effect a large amount of jobless, starving people would have on my safety.

    27. Re:A post scarcity society by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      Those are political problems, not physical.

    28. Re:A post scarcity society by k(wi)r(kipedia) · · Score: 1

      Ultimately, perhaps even within the next few centuries, we're going to see a situation where the abundant resources in our solar system are harvested and processed by mostly automated engines, providing an excellent (upper middle class) quality of life for everyone on earth. There is no physical reason why this should not be the case.

      I think this is kind of the utopian version of the American dream. However, if history is any guide, this would be impossible to achieve without a drastic reduction in population or mastery of some form of terraforming that would extend the human biosphere. Certain populations on Earth are already living the utopia of earlier centuries. I can forsee the Bill Gates or Mark Shuttleworths of the future going on a holiday to Mars but not the sanitation engineer surpervising the robo-cleaners down the hall.

      The poor of the future will (continue to) have their passive entertainment, perhaps jacking in (rather than off) to the latest direct-link fantasy. Or they would be living in shacks, outcasts from the tech society, no different from those living in the ghettoes or slums of today.

    29. Re:A post scarcity society by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 2

      Its already free in many places. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing All post scarcity means is the quality of the free stuff gets a lot better. It doesn't mean everyone gets to live on a thousand acre wooded ranch.

    30. Re:A post scarcity society by BlackPignouf · · Score: 1

      *You* should think before you reply.
      Your comment is so wrong on so many levels that I don't know where to begin.
      Really, please take the time to read this blog post :
      http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/

      Sorry to burst your bubble!

    31. Re:A post scarcity society by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Er, in the bacterial colony each individual bacterium can fend for itself, absorbing and metabolizing the nutrients around it. Some of them can move, to a certain extent. And they can build and maintain their own cell walls and other structures (biofilm, pili, etc). People on welfare expect - no - demand to have the work done for them.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    32. Re:A post scarcity society by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      Doesn't look like its my bubble that's in trouble to be honest. So please, begin. Educate me, and these guys while you're about it.

    33. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      generosity, something you can't understand, will replace government social programmes

      - well actually I am against charity on principle, but unfortunately people have this desire to be charitable, thus creating a situation where gov't says that charity will be enforced by threat of violence via taxes, thus turning something that is a private situation (somebody getting charity from a specific person or a group) to a situation where people who in fact are living on charity (welfare, SS, etc.), and it become entrenched so that the people on charity start believing that they are ENTITLED to it, so the gov't must steal from some with threat of violence, and give it to individuals who think they are entitled to it.

      Why are they entitled to it? Why is anybody made to feel that they are entitled to the society to enforce stealing from the productive members and giving to the unproductive, (which is what I am talking about - the Petri dish of human bacteria).

      There's always a shortage of tradesmen in this country but for some reason my government would much rather pay the unemployed a fortune to sit at home than the 5000GBP to train them to do something useful.

      - you are right, those people shouldn't be paid for sitting at home, specifically they are paid with tax payer (or borrowed or printed) money and then they buy the wealth produced by those some people that paid the taxes, so it's double thievery.

      But your question is strange, do you honestly not understand why government does what it does? Gov't is a system of power, with politicians fighting for this power for personal benefit.

      The best way to become powerful in government is to have the most support by the mob, and giving free things to the mob is the best way to get popular support. It's the worst thing for the economy and for the country, but it's the best thing for the politicians.

      You said this in another comment:

      You really hate people don't you.

      . People. As in a collective of two legged, two handed animals that want to do nothing and steal whatever they can?

      I like INDIVIDUALS that do something useful, something that I can trade for with them.

      People, as a collection of thieves and lazy bums? I don't feel anything more towards them than I feel towards a Petri dish filled with bacteria.

    34. Re:A post scarcity society by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Yes, I find it odd that covering a few hundered square k/m with PV's is seen as a "gigantic expense", but re-plumbing the entire N. America continent with a new network of oil pipelines is a "necessary investment".

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    35. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's the difference between 1 billion people and 1 billion bacteria? What's the difference between you and a bacterium?

    36. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      good point.

    37. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that in the future, assuming we have AI, pretty much everyone will be out of work. Few would be able to afford housing. We'd need to completely redesign the entire system.

      hint: there is a finite amount of land available

      There is a finite amount, but there is more than we can ever hope to use. Now, good land, that's another matter...

    38. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I think of and produce something that is found to be useful by the market, and what I produce is not part of my DNA programming.

      To me the difference between an individual human and an individual bacteria is the ability of the human to find something to do that is useful to me, that is all.

    39. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      by the way, your statement doesn't address the question.

      The question is:

      - winner of what? What do you get for feeding and housing people who don't do anything productive?

      What do you get for doing something for people that don't do anything? What? Is it just a way to buy them off, so they don't attack you? So you have to become their slave, do work for them, and they won't do anything for you except not killing you, while still hating you because you did this for them and they couldn't do it?

      Then why not use a much small amount of resources and just dispose of those people only one time?

    40. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good luck. Slashdot is filled with delusional children who live in their dream world.

    41. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The loss of jobs need not be a bad thing in what is quickly approaching a post scarcity society. Ultimately, perhaps even within the next few centuries, we're going to see a situation where the abundant resources in our solar system are harvested and processed by mostly automated engines, providing an excellent (upper middle class) quality of life for everyone on earth. There is no physical reason why this should not be the case.

      I can think of one. Overpopulation. And don't tell me how many people we could possibly support because we will always make more and more until our resources are stretched thin. Again.

    42. Re:A post scarcity society by Patent+Lover · · Score: 1

      That's what they said in the 50's. All the new gadgets and technology would make more time for leisure and an easier life for everybody. It didn't happen.

    43. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you ever heard of nuclear power? We have enough nuclear fuels here on earth for thousands of years, and there is enough of the stuff in space rocks to keep us going until the sun explodes.
      The only reason we don't use more nuclear power right now is paranoia. But once Joe average figures out he can't watch American Idol without the power of the atom, you can expect things changes.

    44. Re:A post scarcity society by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      My point exactly. History shows a rather poor track record on the outcome of class warfare. It's possible that new tech might help - with modern internet communications it may be practical for the population to keep a much closer eye on their leaders and cut through the propaganda - but I wouldn't want to depend on that alone.

    45. Re:A post scarcity society by MojoRilla · · Score: 1

      And it would be cool to have gold fall from the sky. But that doesn't make the current machines useless. Remember, we are at the very start of this revolution.

      As for printing a candy bar...huh? Why do that? Traditional manufacturing still has a role, at least for the foreseeable future.

      On the other hand, I was playing with a RepRap printed herringbone gear yesterday. I thought it was pretty cool. They are very difficult to manufacture with traditional machinery, but not a problem with a 3D printer.

    46. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would you consider keeping you from dying in some pretty nasty ways something personally useful?

    47. Re:A post scarcity society by BlackPignouf · · Score: 1

      Funny you mention desertec.
      I work as an engineer for a solar research center in Germany.
      We work a lot with the DLR (http://www.dlr.de/dlr/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-10010/), which is involved in the desertec project.
      I designed a few hundred MWp worth of solar installations around Europe.

      So : I know what's available, what we need and what could be done with renewable energies.
      But there's a slight nuance you seem to be missing :
      desertec hopes to deliver 15% of Europe's electricity by 2050, provided they find a decent way to cool down the concentrated solar plant in the frigging desert.
      15% isn't much, Europe is only a small part of the world, 2050 is pretty late compared to peak oil, electricity isn't the biggest part of our energy demand and there still are quite a lot of technological problems to even achieve this.

      So yeah, keep dreaming about space travel, big cars, big houses, lot of meat and perpetual motion for 10 billion people.

    48. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Of-course, that's why I do what I can to avoid getting into those types of situations. I even pay private security services for some of that.

    49. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll answer for him: you'll be a winner of life.

      There's a lot to be earned for helping people that don't do anything.

      It's not buying them off so they don't attack you, it's buying them so you can use them later (i.e. send them to attack other people you want attacked). Even if you don't use them to attack, even if they don't do anything, their presence alone is powerful. I mean, just look at various democracies with low voter turn out. Those mobs don't really do anything, but just the threat of them being there is enough.

      And you aren't becoming their slave. They are becoming yours. Real leaders understand how to make the most out of people, even those who don't do anything.

      And it's not like you can't whip them to start doing something. Failing that, they probably still have useful organs.

      You need to think outside the box.

    50. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you do. But I don't see how private security would keep your inny-squishy bits happily swimming in bacteria, either way.

    51. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People shouldn't be on charity for the entire lives, do you think it is even good psychologically to have a society of people who do nothing, that are clothed, well fed, cared for and they do nothing.

      Now, now, that's a godless communist talk. You ought to respect your betters!

    52. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      By the way, you are skipping on the question:

      winner of what? What do you get for feeding and housing people who don't do anything productive?

      So in your estimation, what is it that a producer gains from housing and feeding people who do not do anything?

      You think he is going to get their gratitude? For how long, just until the time he again overproduces and buys himself something that those people he is feeding and housing will be jealous of and will again, go to the barricades to make sure that 'wealth is evenly distributed'?

      Why would a producer need gratitude, he is already doing what he needs for himself, he clearly can take care of himself and the best gratitude is not from people who don't produce anything in return. Their gratitude is worth precisely 0.

      The gratitude that market provides, that is what is important. You produce something and somebody else produces what they can, and you exchange - THAT is gratitude. That is real. That is not bullshit, it's not a waste, it shows that your efforts are actually appreciated that others are willing to take what they do and exchange it for what you do.

      Getting gratitude from bums is easy, but it is also not very lasting and it's dangerous, that type of gratitude quickly becomes envy.

      Feeding and sheltering billions of people for nothing, for no productive output, that's a huge waste of resources. It's much less resource consuming just to wipe out the Petri dish with some cleaning solution.

    53. Re:A post scarcity society by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      To quote myself, "Am I really suggesting that we run wires to every country on earth from the Sahara, or is that an example to illustrate the point that we are swimming in hugely more energy than our civilisation needs, and this can be arbitrarily scaled up?" And that's before you get into the discussion about renewables becoming ever more attractive as fossil fuels become scarcer. There's no reason to suggest fossil fuels will vanish overnight. But that's not the point.

      Your UCSD link, which you've refused to engage on, probably because it bizarrely dismisses out of hand the main thrust of my argument (space development), is a good example of that obligatory XKCD... http://xkcd.com/605/ Or to put it another way, past performance is no indication of future performance. To give everyone on earth a European upper middle class lifestyle you'd need to expand energy production by what, 20 to 50 times? That's still a tiny fraction of the amount of useable solar energy alone falling on the earth. And that's without even thinking about the solar power satellites JAXA is constructing right now.

      The link also runs straight past the biggest energy consumers, which are not domestic but industrial. I suppose its easier to come to broad conclusions that fit presumption if you ignore the details. By moving industrial manufacturing into space, you short circuit his growth graph, and short circuit it even further by taking into account the marvellous efficiencies we can achieve using advancing technology. Ebooks for example use almost no energy, and supplant almost all need for paper books, newspapers, that entire energy intensive industry. And thats a technology, just one, in its infancy.

      How's that bubble doing?

    54. Re:A post scarcity society by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1
    55. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      if they don't do anything, their presence alone is powerful...... .... not like you can't whip them to start doing something. Failing that, they probably still have useful organs.

      - well, if you like being a king of the hill, surrounded by ASS KISSING SLAVES, then yes, that's what you'd want, isn't it?

      If that's your ideal, then don't talk to me about 'moral superiority'.

      Neither idea is compelling to me: being somebody's slave or owning slaves.

    56. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      What do you mean, "I don't think you do". Of-course I do, there is home security, and the service that takes care of the car. In some cases there is on-site security for the meetings, there is some private insurance, there are all forms of security that people pay for, quite a number of people pay for it, otherwise those services wouldn't have existed.

    57. Re:A post scarcity society by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      go to Africa or India and tell the significant proportion of the earth's populaton that live in poverty that we are approaching a "post scarcity society"!

      Those people aren't dying because there's not enough food for them. They're dying because the food isn't getting to them. It's not because we can't get it to them, either. It's because they live under repressive governments that prevent them from bettering their situation.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    58. Re:A post scarcity society by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Hence I don't think housing (for example) will ever be free.

      There's no particular reason for it not to be, but housing that you want to live in will probably never be free. We have craploads of shipping containers lying around that could be converted into extremely low-cost housing as it is today, with a very small footprint. The free housing doesn't even have to have individual bathrooms and showers, just enough privacy and security to not be subjected to abuse.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    59. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      - well, if you like being a king of the hill, surrounded by ASS KISSING SLAVES, then yes, that's what you'd want, isn't it?

      That's what most people want throughout history, I'm just telling you how it is. People demand power and tyranny the same way they demand food and water. It's just as much a market activity as any other. As there is a demand, a supply got created: government.

      And boy did people lap up the product/service called government. Look around: almost any single land and resource worth a damn on this planet is claimed to be under the "jurisdiction" of some government or another.

      And government evolved over time, eventually people created democracy, which allows for the most people to become tyrants ("tyranny of the mob"). That's why it's said to be the best system there is, because it's the best at giving people - the market - what they want.

      If that's your ideal, then don't talk to me about 'moral superiority'.

      It's not my ideal, it's just the truth. And I never talked to you about moral superiority (you might be confusing me with someone else you're having a conversation with... not my problem you're so confused though)

      There are no morals in the market. The market just decides what people "want", not what's "moral", or "ethical", or or ideologies or principles or whatever. If people want amoral things, somebody on the market will provide to make a profit.

      Neither idea is compelling to me: being somebody's slave or owning slaves.

      Your question was what you get and what do you win. I only answered. Just because you don't find the rewards compelling doesn't mean the practical value does not exist.

    60. Re:A post scarcity society by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      It's a British English expression. Look it up.

    61. Re:A post scarcity society by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      LOL genocide is your answer. Brilliant. What a fucking psycho you are.

    62. Re:A post scarcity society by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      Those on benefits in my country don't tend to vote thereby nullifying your argument.

    63. Re:A post scarcity society by skids · · Score: 2

      People. As in a collective of two legged, two handed animals that want to do nothing and steal whatever they can?

      Here's the crux of the problem with the "invisible hand of the free market" -- it's as deep in your pocket as the government. This magic savior force looked upon by the more philosophical of the selfish class actually is composed in great part by con-artists, frauds, sociopaths, psychopaths, and other such ilk that use deceit, manipulation, power and opression just as much if not more than any system of government. And yet somehow they never get meeted out by those free market mechanisms that are supposed to do so. Many manage to create a market "need" out of whole cloth, merely by manipulating the weaker minded.

      So here's a hint for you: whether they call themselves a government, or a chamber of commerce, or a corporation, there will always be alliances of people who seek to take more than their fair share, and as a result, there will always be alliances seeking to claw back what what stolen from them. Mostly because people don't like to face up to the hard truth that their "talent" is only a very small part in the chain of components needed to produce whatever they hang their sense of self-worth on, and if they actually shared the credit for their "achievments" fully, they would be significantly less well off than they currently are.

      Governments, chambers of commerce, and corporations can all exist in both positive and negative capacities. Casting any of them into a purely negative light is like saying the world would be better without covalent molecular bonds, because that's what was holding together the skateboard you just tripped on.

    64. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Genocide? Where do you see genocide?

      Where is the answer to the question: what does one gain by feeding the unproductive?

      Your answer to this is what?

      Again: what does one get for doing work and giving it up to feed and shelter somebody who does not produce and thus can never repay?

      Genocide? Is your belief that majority of people are worthless and want to live on welfare and if left alone by the do-gooders, such as yourself will simply lay down and die instead of figuring out how to participate in the market economy?

    65. Re:A post scarcity society by fgouget · · Score: 1

      Such optimism!

      Ultimately, perhaps even within the next few centuries,

      We may not have a few centuries. If we continue our current 2.3% energy growth per year, then in a bit above 400 years the earth's surface temperature will reach the boiling point. Something has to give long before that, and that may put a wrench in our space dreams.

      we're going to see a situation where the abundant resources in our solar system are harvested and processed by mostly automated engines,

      It's far from clear that the EROEI (Energy Return On Energy Invested) of space resources is ever going to be greater than 1. Even for ores where the EROEI is less relevant, the energy cost still has to be compared to that of earth-based mining solutions and it's unlikely to be competitive. It looks like we will at most be able to capture a select few light asteroids (those coming close to the earth with just the right speed), but that won't provide abundant resources to everyone on earth. Note that even having a StarTram on one side won't help for the return trip.

    66. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Oh? So 'winner' in British English, means a sucker or a slave?

      Well, who knew.

    67. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Yeah, right, bullshit. The left is using the tactic of turning people into a dependent class in order to gain massive populist vote, and people on welfare are quite likely to be voting, what else do they have to spend their time on?

      Of-course the welfare queens are also government workers, gov't is a massive welfare program, so whoever is actually employed by the government is a powerful voting block as well, and those employed by the gov't have plenty to lose if the gov't is cut.

      Nothing is nullified, politicians gain power with populist politics.

    68. Re:A post scarcity society by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      We may not have a few centuries. If we continue our current 2.3% energy growth per year, then in a bit above 400 years the earth's surface temperature will reach the boiling point. Something has to give long before that, and that may put a wrench in our space dreams.

      Yes, but the link makes a lot of assumptions I would question, first of which is dismissing space out of hand. The biggest energy consumers are not domestic but industrial. By moving industrial manufacturing into space, you short circuit his growth graph, and short circuit it even further by taking into account the marvellous efficiencies we can achieve using advancing technology.

      Ebooks for example use almost no energy, and supplant almost all need for paper books, newspapers, that entire energy intensive industry. And thats a technology, just one, in its infancy. We should soon even be able to grow meat without the cattle, by all accounts. If agriculture and industry move to space, where then the extrapolation? It doesn't just cut down on the amount of energy needed on earth, it cuts down on the rate of growth in energy demand. It might even reverse it or stabilise it entirely.

      Note that even having a StarTram on one side won't help for the return trip.

      It doesn't need to, there are easily accessable asteroids creaking with all the volatiles we need hanging right up there. The hardest step by far is getting up there. After that everything is much more economical.

    69. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      composed in great part by con-artists, frauds, sociopaths, psychopaths, and other such ilk that use deceit, manipulation, power and opression just as much if not more than any system of governmen

      - the more reasons NOT to give government ANY power over individuals in the market, over money, because those who are the con artists in the free market will immediately be looking (and finding) ways to get into the government and that is what happened and the damage is obvious.

      In the free market there are con artists, there is fraud, everything that exists with or without any market in all situations under all circumstances and with all societies, because one lucrative way to get ahead is by committing fraud. It's the EASIEST way to get ahead, especially if you are good at it.

      Now take that kind of a person and give him power. Well that's what government is all about - giving power over many to a few, and the few who are in power are there not because they like free market, not because they want to produce something that people value, but because it is the shortest distance between two points: not having and having things you want.

      The shortest path between being poor and rich is through violence, and government power gives the protection to those, who are willing to use the violence.

      In the free market the con-artists exist, the fraud exists, etc., but it is not a systematic problem, it is an unavoidable problem of humanity, regardless of the system.

      For some reason you think that having gov't removes this problem, I don't understand how many examples do you really need? From Enron and Madoff (and SEC new for years) to any type of smaller fraudsters, like the NIA - fraud exists, and gov't isn't stopping it, in fact it often protects giant fraud in private sector, that's the problem.

      BUT gov't itself is a complete fraud, it's filled with thieves, people in it give themselves exclusion to insider trading rules, for example, yet they are the ultimate insiders. They set the law, they decide which company wins and which loses (a simple example would be FDA deciding on drug outcomes) and they use information to make money by trading before everybody else finds out what they decided, that's real fraud, and it's an everyday thing that is happening in gov't.

      Gov't fraud is always much bigger in scope than any private fraud. FDA, FHA, FDIC, Fed, these are all examples of how gov't commits massive fraud on national and even international levels. The biggest thieves are IN government.

      My point is that gov't shouldn't be allowed to steal from individuals, and I am talking about rights.

      Gov't shouldn't be allowed to tell an employer that he must pay a certain wage to anybody - that is THEFT. That is right there - the right of free association, right of private property, they are violated.

      The very idea that gov't should be able to regulate business activity and tax income is completely insane, that is exactly how you destroy the economy.

      Anyway, I have things to do and little time to do them in.

    70. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this, gentlemen, is exactly the type of thinking and person that will prevent any situation where overly abundant resources (assuming that they exist and can be harnessed as such) are distributed across society even just to the point where people aren't starving while good food or housing is just thrown away. Well, that and those people who just Want More At Any Cost. I understand the idea of not liking it when u work hard and others who don't are awarded for no work (presumably) at *our* expense (yea sir I work my tail off just like u for my rent). I just think its sick thinking to feel that real human beings should live in poverty when society at large can provide for a baseline of living and healthcare. Notice, I didn't say people should live WELL. Living arrangements should b approximate to what u work for if you are able to. But NO one should go without food or medicine if we can provide it (baseline things) as a society. I also find it completely not funny that (maybe not u) many people who claim to b Christians think the way this gentleman does. Sure... Yea... That's what the savior would do.... Kill those bacteria Iike people who don't work or LET THEM STARVE! (bonus) bet 5 bucks he is a "Christian"

    71. Re:A post scarcity society by riondluz · · Score: 1

      How about: Of all the billions wasted, lost and unaccounted for in our Iraq adventure we just gave 1/2 of that away from the outset?

      No plundered antiquities, no civil war, no million refugees upsetting Syria or 100-500K bodies in the ground. No returning vets with TBI's and adjustment problems.

      Sometimes giving something away of value is in your best interests.
       

      --
      resist propaganda
    72. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      You owe me 5 bucks, I don't believe in any gods.

      You want to provide charity? Reach for your own wallet, not for other people's purses.

    73. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      How about not wasting billions at all? Of-course when it's not your money, you don't feel particularly outraged about it, do I catch the drift?

    74. Re:A post scarcity society by Darktan · · Score: 1

      So, if you don't give the poor the tools to succeed, but leave them illiterate and starving on the streets, they will see how right you are, and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps? Brilliant! I hear that's exactly how the French Revolution went!

      We maintain a semblance of equality (equality of opportunity, not necessarily of wealth) because to fail to do so invites social unrest.

    75. Re:A post scarcity society by jstults · · Score: 1

      On the 3D printing front, gimme one that prints steel, aluminium alloys, etc. with the structural integrity of their conventially produced equivalents (i.e. not sintered) and I'll start to take this discussion seriously.

      EOS, 3DSystems and Arcam make systems that make Steel, Aluminum, Inconel and Titanium parts with mechanical properties equivalent to (and in some cases surpasing) wrought parts. The "sintering" in the trade names is a misnomer. The process is actually micro welding with lasers or electron beams. Straight out of the machine the parts are fully dense and useful.

    76. Re:A post scarcity society by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      You are talking like a society like Roddenberry created with star trek. everyone just 'doing the right thing' while living under what was in effect socialism.

      The problem is that it never works long term. Without true personal incentive to achieve, the engine slows down and eventually stops.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    77. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your inhumanity is staggering. Really, I am lost for words.

    78. Re:A post scarcity society by dj245 · · Score: 1



      Are you being serious here? I work in an industry where we have tiny clearances on huge rotating equipment parts. The number of places we need 0.001" accuracy is not large. 0.01" or 0.02" is usually good enough for all but the most critical dimensions.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    79. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      housing is free for niggers because white people got cowed into giving them everything free in a futile attempt to get them to shut up about racism.

      in detroit, there's no one left to collect taxes from, and the "paris of the west" is falling apart. It's okay to blame white flight, but not ok to blame the 90% diverse population.

    80. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow I really wish I could talk to you again in 30 years when your kids will learn to ride horses and jet planes will fly once a week...

    81. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you could come up with a proposal for feeding and housing all those people who lose their income then you'd be on to a winner.

      - winner of what? What do you get for feeding and housing people who don't do anything productive?

      How about this: they start doing something other than what they were doing before they got laid off because their particular labour could be done more efficiently without them?

      I don't see what we gain as a society at all by creating incentives for people to live lives without doing anything. What's the purpose, to have them fill all of the available space, so that eventually there is again a problem of 'haves and have nots' in perpetuity?

      People shouldn't be on charity for the entire lives, do you think it is even good psychologically to have a society of people who do nothing, that are clothed, well fed, cared for and they do nothing.

      For your future introspection, I've bolded the parts where you've made assumptions that you might want to examine.

      I'd add this. In life, there's more to productivity than the paycheck at the end of the week, and more to value than the number of hours one spends working a job.

      What is the difference between them and a bacteria colony exactly and why should anybody who produces something care for a bacteria colony?

      This is an obscenity. People are not, under any circumstances, bacteria colonies. Not even metaphorically.

    82. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      So, if you don't give the poor the tools to succeed

      - they have all the tools necessary, the have the productive economy around it (well, the less gov't exists around you, the more productive the economy is, it's unfortunate that USA is so unproductive today because of all this government).

      The tools are right here, right in front of them. Prices are still very low, and when gov't is not involved and there is more free market, the prices only go lower and lower, as is the case with the electronics market, the computer market, the Internet, etc. The food industry, starting with the agriculture is unfortunately subsidised, so the prices are much higher than they should be, but still they are low enough, even the poorest don't actually starve.

      Of-course your argument looks at the CURRENT situation, which is already very problematic BECAUSE of massive amounts of government, and you are saying: in this situation the poor have no tools, so it's the free market fault!

      Well, it's either complete lack of logic or a lie on your part. I suppose you don't care about the fact that the Federal reserve makes it its priority to prop up PRICES for things that should fall in price.

      All the various assets that are bought with the fake money, all the fake insurance guarantees by the government, designed to prop up the failing business models that help to hold prices up for things that should fall in price, yet I am sure you are blaming the 'free market' for something that is purely government doing.

      Should the poor pull themselves by the bootstraps? Well, the bootstraps would be very useful in this situation, in case of the free market there would have been actual savings in the system, so regardless of your current situation, should you come to a bank with a business proposal, you'd get a loan.

      But not today, you won't get a business loan today. All loans go to the government, the loans are made with fake money of-course, and the price on money is fake (interest rate), so there are no savings and no business could get a loan with REAL interest rates, that are probably in triple digits today, not even in double digits.

      Should the poor pull themselves up by the bootstraps?

      How about allowing the businesses that EXIST operate without government interference? There are still people who can invest but they end up moving their investments and productivity somewhere else. Some of those poor people could be working for these investors, but in the political climate that sets up all sorts of rules while destroying the currency itself, only an idiot would try and invest and build an actual viable productive business.

      As to equality - how about having equality where it REALLY COUNTS? Equality before LAW?

      How about making sure that the government cannot discriminate against some and put obligations upon them, while giving out subsidies to others, by telling them they are entitled to something from those, who have obligations. This is codified in the law, so definitely there is no equality.

      As to social unrest, well obviously it's coming, but of-course the people who will suffer are not those who truly deserve to suffer, it is never those who suffer who are actually the cause of the problem.

      Those who will suffer will be those who didn't actually turn the country around, from being a wealth generating republic into this democratic quasi-socialist, but really a very much fascist regime, which merges the interests of the political elite with the chosen companies to run monopoly businesses in everything.

      Government bail outs, stimulus packages and nationalisation are a good example of what so wrong with the system today, none of it should have ever happened. The people themselves should have never allowed it, but they did and they did NOT take down the government that became this obviously corrupt, they didn't mobilise and take it down.

      Eventually these people, they won't have a choice but to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, th

    83. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You owe me 5 bucks, I don't believe in any gods.

      You want to provide charity? Reach for your own wallet, not for other people's purses.

      Oh, but you do. The deities of Job Creators and Don't Touch Mine!

    84. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I'd add this. In life, there's more to productivity than the paycheck at the end of the week, and more to value than the number of hours one spends working a job.

      - of-course it's not about the 'paycheck', the paycheck is only a reflection of what was actually created. The wealth was generated by work, money is only an expression of that work.

      This is an obscenity. People are not, under any circumstances, bacteria colonies. Not even metaphorically.

      - I disagree. I think people could be worse than bacteria colonies, because unlike bacteria people are actually capable of doing something that differentiates them from bacteria by doing something that is not simply their programmed DNA function.

      If there is a set of people, whose activity is indistinguishable in its outcome from activity that is observed in a bacteria colony, then there is no difference.

      People can do a number of things without engaging in any productive activity if they are given resources for this by somebody else. If somebody provides a group of people with all the food they could eat, with all the clothing they need, with shelter and various other basic necessities, and if the behaviour of this group results in an outcome, that is indistinguishable from outcome of a bacteria colony that is given unlimited resources to eat and live in, then again, there is no difference.

      For a person to be a person and not bacteria, he or she has to do something beyond eating, drinking, watching sports or whatever they watch, bathing themselves and procreating.

      If that's their activity, then there is absolutely NO qualitative difference between this group of people and a full Petri dish. For people to be different, they have to imagine things that they are not programmed to do simply for survival as directed by nature, but they have to go beyond it, they have to think of ways to change their circumstance and they have to act upon it and do it.

      Without productivity, people are not at all different from any other animal that lives only in the moment, not thinking of anything.

      To me actually, the people who live that way are worse than bacteria. Bacteria doesn't have a choice.

    85. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      wrong, I am the biggest humanist of all, I want people to be individuals, actual persons and not bacteria.

    86. Re:A post scarcity society by dcollins117 · · Score: 2

      don't see what we gain as a society at all by creating incentives for people to live lives without doing anything. What's the purpose, to have them fill all of the available space, so that eventually there is again a problem of 'haves and have nots' in perpetuity?

      Yes, let's just euthanize the do-nothing elderly, disabled, and parasitic welfare recipients. They're no more useful than bacteria. That will free up lots of resources that could be better spent on you.

    87. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Yes, let's just euthanize the do-nothing elderly, disabled, and parasitic welfare recipients. They're no more useful than bacteria. That will free up lots of resources that could be better spent on you.

      - my resources are definitely better spent on me, that's not even a question. The question is what does society gain by creating a class of people that do not produce anything?

      Again, carefully examine the situation: you have a group of people that produce nothing. Do you think that they should be able to require that society somehow takes care of them and they, themselves will not be doing anything that society could get back from them in return?

      Do you understand what trade is? Do you think trade is about 1 person producing and 1 person buying with paper money without producing, because he got this money from somebody else? What is the reason for the producer in this situation to exchange his production for money that is given to him by somebody who didn't produce anything?

      Now, you are obviously creating a straw argument, not something that was under discussion, from the elderly and the disabled, probably to children.

      Obviously the response is clear (not to you, but to me it is). The elderly people have produced over their lives, they have savings (or they should have savings), savings is what they produced and saved in order to retire at some point.

      As to the disabled... the truly disabled, those who cannot work at all, they should be taken care of by charity of-course, not by any government, not by force and threat of violence.

      The children are responsibility of their parents, and parents should have insurance for cases where they cannot take care of their children, this is just a prudent thing to do. If parents don't care about their children enough to ensure the well being of their own children, why should anybody else? Of-course again, there are charities for children, no question about it. Plenty of people donate plenty of money for such causes.

      All of your examples have nothing to do at all with what is discussed, so your straw argument is burning.

    88. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...something something No True Scotsmen something...

    89. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      - they have all the tools necessary

      No they don't. There's no such thing as tools necessary to succeed for these people. Remember, these are people who, by your words, unproductive. They don't do anything, so no matter what tools are right in front of them, they won't do anything with them.

      Remember these are people who you have compared to bacteria. So what would bacteria do if you give them "tools"? Give them shovels, and suddenly bacteria will build roads? Give them typewriters, and they'll create all the works of Shakespeare? Give them the LHC, and they'll find the Higgs Boson?

      Even if you give them a "free market" that's really productive, they aren't going to amount to anything. When was the last time you saw bacteria start a business? I haven't.

      What I do is however is that people use bacteria to their own advantage. Even in their natural inert state some bacteria can be useful to others. It's all a matter of innovation, and not letting the notion of "slavery" get in the way.

    90. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Makes one wonder what the incentives for various scientists are right now.

    91. Re:A post scarcity society by willy_me · · Score: 1

      - well actually I am against charity on principle, but unfortunately people have this desire to be charitable, thus creating a situation where gov't says that charity will be enforced by threat of violence via taxes, thus turning something that is a private situation (somebody getting charity from a specific person or a group) to a situation where people who in fact are living on charity (welfare, SS, etc.), and it become entrenched so that the people on charity start believing that they are ENTITLED to it, so the gov't must steal from some with threat of violence, and give it to individuals who think they are entitled to it.

      I think you're ignoring a few things. Firstly, it is expensive to have people running around stealing things because it is the only way they can survive. It is beneficial to everyone, even those who are taxed, to have taxes collected to ensure a certain level of security. Welfare is less costly than prisons and orders of magnitude less costly than private security or the lost productivity resulting from no security. People are OK with military spending but not SS? Hard to believe, SS spending makes you much safer.

      Second, is America not owned by the people? When natural resources are extracted should the people not receive a part of those resources? The resources are not free as individuals are not allowed to take them - they must be purchased from the government - ie, the people. Should only the rich and employed receive a portion of these profits? People are entitled to certain things because America is owned by the people, not the rich.

      I hate welfare and am all for getting people off their lazy asses. But it is a necessary evil as the alternative is far worse.

    92. Re:A post scarcity society by tyrione · · Score: 1

      You lost the argument at the concept that everyone considers their fellow person an equal, beyond rudimentary existence.

    93. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I am against gov't spending, including military. Defence is one thing, having a standing army to attack everybody is something else.

      By the way, SS spending makes your economy go kaboom eventually, pretty far away from being 'ok'.

      As to natural resources, etc., there shouldn't be any public property, all property should be owned privately and only then it can be mined. So if gov't owns some property that can be used for business, it should auction it off and use the proceeds to offset the taxes, that's how the people get some profit from selling this 'public property' at first, and secondly they get the benefit of the private company actually extracting the mineral, energy source, whatever, and putting it on the market for everybody to bid on.

      You truly believe that it is about money, as in paper, don't you? The wealth is not paper, it's not money, money is just a store of value, means of exchange and a unit of account (that's why gold is actually a good way to store value and paper is not), the real wealth is production.

      Those minerals do us no good sitting underground unexplored, but we can actually use them if somebody extracts them, and paying for the extraction is just an added value, but we want somebody to extract it and let us use it.

    94. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The government actively conspires against the free housing you suggest. As in the phrase "this structure isn't up to code". Laws exist in just about every municipality in the world to prevent the poor from improvising homes for themselves, thus they are forced to trade their labour for the privilege to live in a house that is "up to code".

      I am a carpenter, I know what it takes to build a structure that is weather-tight and water-tight, yet to extend my home, on land I already own, costs more in "compliance" fees, than material or labour.

      Likewise we pay large fees to telcos for connectivity. Without government harrasment, we could easily string our own internet together cheaply, but it comes down to "resource consent" meaning the telco is allowed to build data networks, where-as the citizens are not.

    95. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck 3D printers. To get a decent 3D printing setup, I would imagine I would want a minimum of 5 machines (because of how slowly they make parts). I'm looking at $10k.

      For $10k, I can be setup with a machine lathe, a drill press, a turret mill, cutting tools, jigs, taps and dies.

      Of course, for the too-busy-to-think generation, I assume the thought and care that goes into machining high quality parts is beyond them, rather than learn how to do things themselves, they just want "push bacon, receive bacon" type aparatus.

      Likewise, no one is interested in how to make things, they just want to go down to Walmart and buy things that have been made for them. Then they resent even Walmart for requiring payment for the things, they invent a fantasy that if they only had 3D printers, they could avoid paying "the man".

      The obvious thing to real-worlders is that just about nothing a 3D printer like the rep-rap can make is actually useful. The few things I've seen like joiners would be more economically produced on a die-press or via injection molding.

      DMLS or Layer-EBM, on the other hand are beautiful processes, but far beyond the price range of dreamers. People with actual uses are already making products on demand, and making money hand over foot.

    96. Re:A post scarcity society by wertigon · · Score: 1

      Likewise we pay large fees to telcos for connectivity. Without government harrasment, we could easily string our own internet together cheaply, but it comes down to "resource consent" meaning the telco is allowed to build data networks, where-as the citizens are not.

      Meanwhile, in communist Europe, I have a 100/10 Mbit shared broadband for $25/mo, and a cellphone plan complete with 10 GB dataplan (use for smartphone and laptop, barely go above 3GB) and virtually unlimited calls and texting for $45. $70 in total in a country where the mean average income is about $20k/mo isn't exactly what I'd call expensive, although not dirt-cheap either.

      --
      systemd is not an init system. It's a GNU replacement.
    97. Re:A post scarcity society by gomiam · · Score: 1

      ...where the mean average income...

      Sorry for nitpicking but it is either mean or average. If that country's average income is $20k/mo you can still have 60% of the population below that amount (or more). If its mean income is $20k/mo... hell, I'm moving there ASAP (I mean, getting $240k a year? Here in Spain the mean income is under $25k _per year_ ;)

    98. Re:A post scarcity society by wertigon · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, sorry about that. I meant average income is about $2k... Off by a zero, conversion error. :)

      --
      systemd is not an init system. It's a GNU replacement.
    99. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Remember, these are people who, by your words, unproductive

      - NO.

      These are not people who are by my words unproductive (that is the mistake the OP was making, when he implied I am pro-genocide), these are people that OP WANTS TO MAKE UNPRODUCTIVE.

      There is a difference.

    100. Re:A post scarcity society by Ogi_UnixNut · · Score: 1

      That is not free, it is paid for and supported by those that are working via taxes. The more people who go on social housing, the more tax has to rise to pay for it all.

      If everybody didn't work and lived in public housing, who do you think would pay for it?

    101. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whenever the issue of global PV power comes up, I always draw this parallell: if mother nature can produce self replicating solar power (trees), then it is only a question of time until we humans can do so as well, and get it even better in the long run.
      So right now I actually think we are doing the right thing: using fossil fuels to afford research into sustainable, near unlimited, energy. True, maybe only 0,001% of the fossil fuel energy goes into this kind of research (and the rest into all sort of luxuries we have in our lives), but at least it does go into research.

      So I, too, believe in a future with abundant energy.

    102. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here are your own words

      "- winner of what? What do you get for feeding and housing people who don't do anything productive?"

      The words were people who don't do anything productive. As in, unproductive.

      Either you're lying, or your grasp of the English language is lacking.

    103. Re:A post scarcity society by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      What is lacking is your comprehension.

      The people who are housed and fed are not unproductive in themselves, they become unproductive by being housed and fed because they don't have to do anything to achieve these basic necessities.

      More importantly, once a person starts doing something and is able to be on his own, he'll lose this welfare of being housed and fed for free by somebody.

      Welfare creates the problem of lack of productivity among groups of people. People are productive when they are not put into that position, people are productive when they have to be productive.

    104. Re:A post scarcity society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, my comprehension is fine.

      The one you were replying to was talking about people who became unproductive because their old jobs were made obsolete (by technology or automation or change in market whatever). They did not become unproductive because they were on welfare.

      In other words, the people ALREADY became unproductive before and without welfare.

      So the problem is still back to you: either YOU are the one lacking comprehension (since you can't discern the difference on what the other guy meant by unproductive people), or you're purposely changing the definition of unproductive people as it suits your argument/agenda.

    105. Re:A post scarcity society by robsku · · Score: 1

      I would mod you up if I had points...

      Also, these anti-welfare people are not opposing just paying for other peoples welfare but, as can be seen in this thread too, they often seem to oppose society providing anything for anyone for free - even if it would cost them nothing. This must be a result of some cultural moral fallacy and I can't fathom how anyone with half brain can think that way.

      --
      In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
    106. Re:A post scarcity society by robsku · · Score: 1

      You want to provide charity? Reach for your own wallet, not for other people's purses.

      I do that sometimes, yes - but for the purpose of this conversation, I don't have to: see, I live in Finland, which is a 1st world country.

      --
      In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
    107. Re:A post scarcity society by robsku · · Score: 1

      I am against gov't spending, including military. Defence is one thing, having a standing army to attack everybody is something else.

      By the way, SS spending makes your economy go kaboom eventually, pretty far away from being 'ok'.

      Other countries with long experience with much better SS than USA disagree - of course you can just ignore that with "just wait, it will go kaboom eventually", but even though hard to argue that proves nothing.

      Your economy is collapsing despite SS, not because of it.

      --
      In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
    108. Re:A post scarcity society by robsku · · Score: 1

      Is your belief that majority of people are worthless and want to live on welfare?

      I'd like to ask you this question...

      --
      In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
    109. Re:A post scarcity society by robsku · · Score: 1

      Now, you are obviously creating a straw argument, not something that was under discussion, from the elderly and the disabled, probably to children.

      Obviously the response is clear (not to you, but to me it is). The elderly people have produced over their lives, they have savings (or they should have savings), savings is what they produced and saved in order to retire at some point.

      As to the disabled... the truly disabled, those who cannot work at all, they should be taken care of by charity of-course, not by any government, not by force and threat of violence.

      The children are responsibility of their parents, and parents should have insurance for cases where they cannot take care of their children, this is just a prudent thing to do. If parents don't care about their children enough to ensure the well being of their own children, why should anybody else? Of-course again, there are charities for children, no question about it. Plenty of people donate plenty of money for such causes.

      All of your examples have nothing to do at all with what is discussed, so your straw argument is burning.

      The piece I made bold is, as far as my opinion goes, a lie hidden in factual statement. We have experience of how this works with charity only and can still see it around the world, including USA (your welfare system is lousy), and that's why majority agrees that to do otherwise is barbaric and that the comparison to genocide has it's points. Yes, by force and threat of violence, and by the government, is indeed the right way to go - and not the least because of people who think like you (and them becoming the minority in control is what happens when societies reach certain point of development) - but it's a nasty way to put it though doesn't surprise me.

      --
      In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
  4. am of two minds... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    first, yay for democratizing production. As long as patents and copyright do not get deployed to nuke this into the history books.

    second, oh crap there goes the economy. This because the basics of the economy is production > wage > consume > production. Fully automating production disrupts this.

    1. Re:am of two minds... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry. While open source may produce a fairly good product in the end the corporations will produce the really worthwhile products and even if the open source produce is good enough for 99% of everyone's needs the corporations will produce theirs at a low enough price point that the masses will go with proprietary hardware in the end if for no other reason than to have something that is nice and glossy on their workbench.

    2. Re:am of two minds... by Exrio · · Score: 1

      3D printing doesn't really automate anything that's not already automatic, the only significant difference in this context is that it's cheaper and easier for lower quantities and smaller spaces than industrial methods such as injection molding. Of course patents and copyright will try to get in the way. Thankfully they'll fail miserably like they always do.

  5. Re:Is there an open source hardware specification. by phme · · Score: 3, Informative

    Check out RepRap and MakerBot

  6. Free Complexity at the cost of speed by PetoskeyGuy · · Score: 1

    It's still at the prototype making level though. 3D printing gives you free complexity, but it's very slow. You can lay down layers of plastic, melt or glue powder together, or cure resin into the shape you want. The benefits are there's very little waste material compared to normal manufacturing. The cost is generally in time. I can print a part that uses $2.00 of plastic but that much plastic will take an hour to become something.

    Still once you have a 3d printer, you build a few more and the economies of scale become more or less how many 3d printers can you operate?

    It's still not mass producing - it's custom desktop fabrication. It's like laser printing in the 80s... very slow but nice quality. So in the near future it's still mostly for prototyping or small scale runs. Once your design is perfected you would still use that to create your master mold and mass produce the regular way.

    The open source aspects mean that the entire field is advancing steadily forward. Open Source isn't really breaking new ground in technology, but it is making everything easier to build and cheaper if you've got the time to build it. Just like open source software.

    1. Re:Free Complexity at the cost of speed by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's still not mass producing - it's custom desktop fabrication. It's like laser printing in the 80s... very slow but nice quality. So in the near future it's still mostly for prototyping or small scale runs.

      Good point. If and when enough people have access to these printers, and if they are sufficiently standardized, you will not need mass production anymore. Or rather, the product is still produced in mass, but in many small fabs or even on the desktop, as opposed to requiring a single massive factory in China. It's distributed production. The point is that it's not necessary for these printers to become so fast that they can produce thousands of products per hour. If you're printing at home, you will probably print only a few items every day at most, and you'll be able to afford wait times of an hour or so.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    2. Re:Free Complexity at the cost of speed by What+the+Frag · · Score: 1

      Cost of speed: yes. But this is not a big problem since the printers scale pretty linear.
      In the future we may have "3d copy shops" where they have like 10 printers being able to do small to medium size production runs quickly enough.

    3. Re:Free Complexity at the cost of speed by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Or rather, the product is still produced in mass, but in many small fabs or even on the desktop, as opposed to requiring a single massive factory in China. It's distributed production.

      And who's going to buy up the output of this distributed production?
      There is going to be serious resistance from stores and distributors because they need consistency and efficiency.
      The current model of factories and distribution hubs has fallen into place because it's what works best so far.

      I think it's possible to make every home a factory, I just don't think the transition will be quick or painless.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    4. Re:Free Complexity at the cost of speed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "And who's going to buy up the output of this distributed production?"

      The same people that use the output of your microwave, you!

      "There is going to be serious resistance from stores and distributors..."

      There won't _be_ anymore stores or distributors, just like when you buy T-shirts directly from the kids in China who manufacture them, commerce will die.

      "The current model of factories and distribution hubs has fallen into place because it's what works best so far."

      No, it's because transportation cost is artificially low, which won't last.

  7. Recursion: by pinkushun · · Score: 1

    When 3D printers print other 3D printers, that would be the "Third Industrial Revolution".

    1. Re:Recursion: by higuita · · Score: 1

      from the reprap site:

      RepRap is humanity's first general-purpose self-replicating manufacturing machine.

      so that is nothing unusual...

      --
      Higuita
    2. Re:Recursion: by Issarlk · · Score: 1

      Except it doesn't self-replicate.

    3. Re:Recursion: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, so it produces the semiconductors, and the packaging, and the PCB, and machines the screws, and casts the rods, and refines the copper, and the silicon, and the boron, and the aluminum, the iron, etc?

      Oh, it doesn't.

      Simply being able to produce a minority of the parts, all of which could be more economically produced by injection molding or die-cutting, doesn't make it a "general-purpose self-replicating manufacturing machine".

    4. Re:Recursion: by higuita · · Score: 1

      Give it a few more years! :)

      --
      Higuita
  8. Not there yet by phme · · Score: 1

    3D printers have indeed become more prevalent, and economies of scale might emerge for raw materials and the printers themselves -- but certainly no economies of scale for devices printed on them in sight just yet. Ask anyone who has built or used one if they would be ready to print "thousands" of devices without "significant retooling", or if current 3D printers are able to replace more traditional manufacturing processes even for small batches. Current open-source 3D printers are nice, but are prototyping tools only. Even qualifying them as "rapid prototyping tools" often seems stretching it to me right now. They do allow for rapid-cycle prototyping, though.

    A poorly written summary that does not bring anything new that has not been discussed many times here since 2005.

    1. Re:Not there yet by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      can you prototype things using a traditional machine shop as quickly as a 3d printer? The answer is not only no but a resounding Hell No! because of the shear setup time especially if the damn part is very complex. Anyway you look at it, a 3d printer is a Rapid Prototyper.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    2. Re:Not there yet by phme · · Score: 1

      I agree with you, it is meant to be rapid prototyping, but it is not necessarily so. It really depends on the part you're making. If you consider the time it takes to design the item in 3D, adapting the design to the specifics of printing in 3D and your actual 3D printer, and the time to print the thing, it can take an awful lot of time. Sometimes, people would print in 3D something that can easily be done using classic machining -- or with clay, cardboard or papier-mâché, just because they can, it's fun or it's hype not because they actually need a plastic part or is faster.

      What 3D printing is really good at besides highly complex shapes is rapid-iteration prototyping, where you print several iterations of a prototype with minor changes between each iteration. Then, you start saving a lot of time.

    3. Re:Not there yet by daid303 · · Score: 1

      Ultimaker owner here.

      I say, depends on what you need, and your batch size. 1000+ items, no contest, use injection molding.
      However, need 100 customized items, each different? Or need to be able to modify it on the spot and make a new one?
      Yes, producing 100.000.000 HD case holder clips with 3D printers would be silly. But for example artists love these 3D printers, because they can make whatever they imagine. Your mind seems to be limited to "useful" or "technical" use. Try to look beyond that, look at art, (board) games.
      The 3D printers also allow for open innovation, you can share physical objects with anyone anywhere in the world. See http://www.thingiverse.com/

    4. Re:Not there yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "because of the shear setup time especially if the damn part is very complex."

      So don't use shears if it's sheer insanity.

    5. Re:Not there yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have clearly never been in a good machine shop. The answer is a resounding yes. And when you are done, you have a part that is strong enough and accurate enough to be used in the real world. Try getting a good fit between any RP parts and get back to us.

  9. 3D printing is not an industry by Hentes · · Score: 1

    It's a hobby for creating plastic toys. Even industrial rapi prototyping is only used for test models, as 3D printing is unsuitable for mass production of reliable objects.

    1. Re:3D printing is not an industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sound Bill Gates who said 640KB RAM is sufficient for all computers - you and him lacked imagination.

    2. Re:3D printing is not an industry by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      why is 3d Printer only useful for test models? If you are using one of the more expensive units that work either in Ceramic or metal, there's no reason you couldn't take it to the next step. In fact, what a 3d printer is good for is producing small parts very precisely and with the right materials, there is absolutely no fucking reason those parts aren't anymore durable then those made by more convential methods (if possible).

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    3. Re:3D printing is not an industry by Hentes · · Score: 1

      I didn't say it's not useful for other things, what I said it that it's only used for tests in industrial environments because it's unsuitable for large-scale production. It's slow and the result is not durable enough.

    4. Re:3D printing is not an industry by joaommp · · Score: 1

      you know he actually never really said that, don't you?

    5. Re:3D printing is not an industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That doesn't stop the Slashtards from repeating it. Had Linus said it they'd all be crying out that anything that takes more than 640k is bloat.

    6. Re:3D printing is not an industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bill Gates never said that, if you're going to quote that you need to provide a citation. Bill Gates isn't the technical genius that Woz is, but he did know how to program and any programmer or really user of computers at that time would know that more RAM was necessary and likely forthcoming.

    7. Re:3D printing is not an industry by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking you are missing the vision. The vision is not mass production. Think "on demand".

      How many items are in your house that require no moving parts? Just as an example to keep it simple.

      Light switch plates, outlet plates, outlet safety plugs, cabinet fixtures, handles of all sorts, basic chairs, shelving, closet organizers, toilet flow control parts, candles, candle holders, picture frames, utensils, cups, plates, the list goes on.

      The point is that as the ability to print objects becomes as standard as a household ink/laser printer, those who have one will no longer need to buy these mass manufactured goods. They will be able to print on demand what they need.

      There will of course be a market for hand made luxury goods or hybrid goods but the vast majority will produced at home or in a local shop by request as utilitarian goods.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    8. Re:3D printing is not an industry by Simon+Brooke · · Score: 1

      As JaredofEuropa pointed out above, once you have 3D printers mass production is obsolete. And 3d printing is already being used to build concrete structures

      --
      I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
    9. Re:3D printing is not an industry by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      As JaredofEuropa pointed out above, once you have 3D printers mass production is obsolete

      Maybe if you had 3D printers with resolution several orders of magnitude better than what we have now. You can't print a ball bearing or the race it goes into, for example. Not good ones, anyway, that will actually last while bearing a load.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  10. Good for trinkets... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...but that's about it in my experience. We had some disappointing results with 3D-printed components at work: they had poor mechanical properties and were permeable to water. We now use a rapid CNC-ing firm (http://www.firstcut.com/) that can produce one-off components cheaply and get them to us inside 3 days; plus they have a fantastic range of proper materials (ABS, nylon, aluminium, etc.). For the time being, we're staying put with CNC.

    1. Re:Good for trinkets... by daid303 · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you have used components from ZCorp machines, which feel a bit like sandstone. Very brittle. These prints feel nothing like prints made in ABS or PLA from a RepRap based machine. And there is quite a lot of difference between the print quality of those machines, depending on the experience of the user.

      However, I agree with the fact that if you have components that need to bare a lot of load, you are better off with CNCing it in the proper material.

      (Me = Happy Ultimaker owner)

  11. Re:Is there an open source hardware specification. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    I'm currently working at a start-up co-working space and this one guy who got rich from a business he started up decided on a whim to buy a makerbot without even knowing exactly what to use it for, so now it's just sitting here and I'm having a field day. This thing is totally awesome :D

  12. Not a Golden Age - a nightmare. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    As more and more 'grunt' jobs are being replaced by machines, more and more folks do what they're 'supposed" to do: go up the "food chain"; which means go to college for a white collar job. And we know what's going on with that.

    But what happens when all the menial jobs are done by machine, everyone who is able goes to college and goes into the labor force - and you have this mass of humanity that wasn't able to get a college degree for whatever reason? What to do with them?

    Or let's say you have a mass of folks, who rightfully go into a field with better than average job prospects - like medicine - flood the market with workers there?

    Retrain? Only to flood another part of the labor market with workers? This is what's happening now in a field. Between the economy and kids seeing what happened to all those 'Russian Lit' majors, many many went into nursing and now there's the worst job market ever for new grad nurses. Will it get better? Eventually - but not until all these unemployed, underemployed and current nursing students get employed.

    In short, we're coming to an age when we're going to have a lot of folks who have no work. There are 7 Billion people on this planet and there aren't enough - and I don't see how enough can be created - jobs higher on the 'food chain'.

    We have an economy that works only if there's consumption. And to have consumption folks need to be able to make a living. If we have less work because of machines, there is less ways to make a living. Less folks work, the less they can consume, The less they consume, the less production happens, The less production, less workers - and less machines. And round again.

    You can only go so far up the food chain because the 'food chain' isn't that large and the 'Chain' is really a pyramid and the higher up the pyramid, the less room there is up there..

    I've had waaay too much coffee.

  13. yes, but the knobs on that toaster... by decora · · Score: 2

    can now be printed by anyone, anywhere, with a gadget that sits on their desk.

    instead of having to trash the toaster and buy a new one, or find a used one on ebay, or go order one for $20 + shipping + processing from some faceless megacorporation that probably doesn't even realize it makes toasters.

    1. Re:yes, but the knobs on that toaster... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes it makes much more sense to fork out $1300 for a 3D printer to make that knob...

    2. Re:yes, but the knobs on that toaster... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Tries to think about how many toasters you'd have to break for it to pay for itself. Thinks about calculating their NPV. Decides he can't be arsed.

      Decides to simply state that it'd take less time to carve a new knob from wood or make one from milliput than to set up the printer.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:yes, but the knobs on that toaster... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Or you could nip down to the local hackerspace and use their 3D printer until the cost of 3D printers comes down to something more affordable for such purposes.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:yes, but the knobs on that toaster... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It takes less time to use a pen and paper than it does to setup a 2d printer.

    5. Re:yes, but the knobs on that toaster... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      It takes even less time to do nothing, which is just as effective as using paper and pen, at least for me.

      Doctors laugh at my handwriting.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:yes, but the knobs on that toaster... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I don't even know if there is one, but it'd still take longer than making one by either of the methods I mentioned.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  14. Re:Incorrect Time Scale by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

    You're correct about less waste and such but you used the wrong time scale. The reason I say that is look at the complexity of the parts in an iPad. Each part takes time to construct so I'll ask you this set of questions.

    • Do you step over to the kiln and make the various ceramic parts used to make an iPad?
    • What about the press used to forge those aluminum cases
    • How about the amount of time needed to make the glass in the display?

    When you actually break it down, there's far more then an hours worth of time invested into the manufacturing of many products today. Only the cheap injection molded stuff can be mass produced in less time. A good example is a custom machine shop. Job cost are based not only upon setup time, that depending on complexity be a couple of days but how long it'll take to complete the production itself. Of course they include things like material cost along with payroll and profit but the key thing is that each and every job takes time as the material can only be worked so fast before you begin damaging it.

    --
    Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
  15. uhm history... by decora · · Score: 1

    we already have abundant resources being harvested and processed mostly by automated engines. for example, wheat is almost entirely processed by gigantic computer controlled combines.

    and yet there are millions of people starving in places like ethiopia (still).

    if robots are harvesting material it doesnt really matter unless you actually own a robot, own the land they are taking the material from, etc.

    look at what is going on in spain .50 % unemployment for youth. the hyper efficient society doesnt necessarily mean that that efficiency's products are spread around. it more likely means that a massive number of people will be considered 'superfluous' and essentially placed in an 'apartheid' system. think of great britain in the industrial revolution , and what it did to ireland (mass starvation, mass forced emigration, etc)

    1. Re:uhm history... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      think of great britain in the industrial revolution , and what it did to ireland (mass starvation, mass forced emigration, etc)

      You don't know what you're talking about.

      I doubt you could point to either country on a map, you lardass.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    2. Re:uhm history... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      0.50%? Or 0.005%?

  16. If civilization collapses we're so screwed by wisebabo · · Score: 1

    And not just because, well, civilization has collapsed.

    See a big revolution (the first industrial revolution?) was through interchangeable parts. That's what (I've heard) gave the Union armies such an advantage over the Confederates, if something broke you didn't need a skilled craftsman to repair it. Just replace the broken part.

    With custom made items from 3D prototypers everything will be unique. If civilization breaks down (no Internet!) being able to find the plans (or getting them scanned) will be much more difficult. Probably doesn't rank up there with water, food and shelter but it might be a serious impediment to recovery.

    By the way, if I'm correct about the first industrial revolution, was the second one caused by the assembly line? Or am I completely off (from what most people think). Was the first caused by something like steam power and the second by electricity?

    1. Re:If civilization collapses we're so screwed by RobinH · · Score: 1

      Why do you think that means you can't make a new part? With replaceable parts limited by mass production you can only have parts that you're willing to make many thousands of, and therefore have on hand in inventory (large warehouses) with big logistical transportation systems behind them. With 3D printing you just download a copy of the part spec and print it out from a bunch of multi-purpose material you have on hand. You can even grind up old stuff for the material. You don't have to keep specialized parts in inventory and you don't have to do massive production runs to be efficient or cost effective.

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    2. Re:If civilization collapses we're so screwed by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      Cheap power was the watershed for each and allowed the other efficiencies to take hold as more labor could specialize and machines could be employed.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    3. Re:If civilization collapses we're so screwed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you give some real world, concrete examples of these new parts that can be printed out? Then compare to not buying the 3D printer, the material and time invested, to just replacing the broken item? We no longer have so many complex devices in the house with the disappearance of big electronics like CD players and VCRs. It seems you are talking about a microscopic section of the population that can repair broken items, it doesn't matter where the part comes from. Also, unless you are constantly using the printer, you'll find that the time needed to get it running again far exceeds the time for a traditional repair.

      Just admit you are a hobbyist indulging in a ridiculously expensive way of making trinkets at home.

    4. Re:If civilization collapses we're so screwed by RobinH · · Score: 1

      Actually I want thinking of the story of a guy who was trying to fix his old vacuum cleaner and couldn't get the part he needed (not made anymore). He created a model of the part, printed it, and then uploaded it so other people could do the same. For the record, I do not have a 3D printer. I'm interested in getting one, mostly so I can use it to prototype robot parts at home. Still we're talking about an idea in its infancy. A RepRap costs about $700 to make yourself, but there are other ones in the works that only cost $300 assembled. The costs of the electronics, material, and printer material are all coming down. They're already in the same price range as a typical home printer. Add this to all the CNC machines, etc., out there, and you'll see there's a lot of neat stuff happening.

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    5. Re:If civilization collapses we're so screwed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Could you give some real world, concrete examples of these new parts that can be printed out?"

      Car keys? AR15 Ammo magazines? Handcuff keys from a photo?

      http://www.pcworld.com/article/241605/criminals_find_new_uses_for_3d_printing.html

  17. We're Not Ready by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Our ability to create machines is far more advanced than our ability to deal with the human condition. At this time the notion of people prospering without hard work threatens the psychology of most people. Imagine people living at a high standard that need not labor or invest at all. Imagine your pay checks being issued by the government and taxes being assigned to the units of production that create the goods rather than to the public. Then imagine the strife and fighting over who gets to be free of labor first which is the flip side of being into forced retirement. One history teacher covers all grade school history and the class is pumped to every home by cable. The school building becomes an historic oddity. The school bus forgotten in time. All of the custodians and trades people who support a traditional school vanish. The entire educational industry almost vanishes and that is just one arena. Already truck drivers and taxi drivers are at risk of being eliminated by robotic drivers and the trend is poking all of us in the eye and yet no one sees it happening,
                    Debates about free markets, socialism and communism become unknown as the very notion of economies is twisted out of recognition. Do not assume that the lower positions will be hit but not the upper crust. Medicine and law could both be adapted to machines. The nurse at the hospital may become a rather high speed robot. This is gathering speed and social institutions need to catch on and figure out how to deal with it.
                    The first real spoiler might be a computer system set up to be a self owned corporation such that when the machine invests and earns all of the earnings are spent improving the power and abilities of the machine. Since 100% of returns would be folded back into the business there would be no taxes due and as the machine gathers strength no human centric company could ever hope to compete so that an entire industry becomes dedicated to providing funds to self investing machine corporations. Future shock may be like a canon in ones' ear.

  18. most of the junk i buy is not durable either by decora · · Score: 1

    so... here is the situation.

    globofucker incorporated decides to almost completely monopolize the gadget_x industry, buying up competition, selling off entire factories, firing thousands of people, then jacking up prices, and most of all

    introducing 'planned obsolescence' into their production process. i.e. they make crap thats supposed to break.

    you can see the results of this by visiting any apartment complex dumpster on a weekend morning. vacuum cleaners are a particular favorite - you'd think that after a 100+ years of development, capitalism would have produced the finest vacuum cleaner in existence.

    instead, it is actually producing WORSE vacuum cleaners that break more quickly than ever before. my parents had a metal vacuum cleaner that lasted for 50 years. meanwhile the average vacuum you buy in a store now will cease to function within 5 years or maybe a decade.

    in otherwords. this stuff about 'durability' and 'reliability' doesnt matter anymore -we live in a world where it is profitable for corporations to produce unreliable, undurable garbage that breaks all the time so we have to buy more of it.

    this is where 3d printing is having its first successes. you can go on thingiverse and find knobs and buttons for various appliances and gadgets - knobs and buttons which were obviously designed to break or designed without thought as to durability.

    instead of having to throw out your old gadget, which is the dream of the finance people working inside FuckemCorp, you can now keep it running for a few more years.

    1. Re:most of the junk i buy is not durable either by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      The bad news is, you are right. The good news is, you're not crazy!

      The Light Bulb Conspiracy.

  19. Transitioning to post-scarcity economics by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    From my website: http://pdfernhout.net/

    In brief, there have always been five interwoven economies, and the balance of them changes with technological changes and cultural changes:
    * A subsistence economy ("There's some lovely berries over here.");
    * A gift economy ("The meat from this deer I hunted is going to spoil; I'll share it with the tribe, and others will share their hunting results some other time as they have in the past.");
    * A planned economy ("Let's put the longhouse here. I'll cut the trees, you level the ground, you over there will put up the walls, and you over there will cook us some food while we are busy with these other tasks.");
    * An exchange economy ("You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. I'll trade you some of my extra berries for some of your extra deer meat.");
    * A theft (or conquest) economy ("What's yours is mine because I'm stronger, cleverer, sneakier, or can afford better lawyers.").

    Paid human labor has less and less value due to several causes including:
    * robotics, AI, and other automation,
    * better design,
    * the accumulation of physical infrastructure,
    * relatively cheaper energy (which can often substitute for human labor), and/or
    * the emergence of voluntary social networks.

    So, we can expect the balance between those five interwoven economies to change as our technology and society changes, perhaps with:
    * A subsistence economy through 3D printing, gardening robots, local PV solar panels, and other local clean energy technologies (like cold fusion or something else);
    * A gift economy through the internet, like sharing digital files to use with our 3D printers or gardening robots, or coordinating the movement of free goods like through Freecycle;
    * A planned economy on a variety of scales, including through taxes, subsidies and regulation affecting market dynamics;
    * An exchange economy marketplace softened by a basic income; and
    * Minimizing the impulse to theft (or conquest) and related violence through the previous four changes.

    The particular balance a society adopts is going to reflect the unique blend of history, culture, infrastructure, environment, relationships, mythologies, religions, and politics of that society.

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  20. Bad Title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How Open Source Hardware Is Driving the 3D-Printing Industry

    Try

    How Open Source Philosophy Is Enabling the Commercialization of 3D Printing

    The market need for rapid prototyping with 3D printed parts is "driving" the industry. The technology is enabling the market to grow because of its use of open source hardware, and software. So, to summarize: Need drives, Technology enables. Necessity is the mother of invention, remember?

  21. Tea, Earl Grey, hot by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    If and when enough people have access to these printers, and if they are sufficiently standardized, you will not need mass production anymore.

    A dedicated machine for producing something will always do it cheaper and faster than a more flexible multipurpose machine.

    in many small fabs or even on the desktop, as opposed to requiring a single massive factory in China.

    That factory can use cheaper techniques and cheaper materials, for example making toy soldiers out of injection moulded polythene. And due to economies of scale they could sell them to you, and ship 'em to your door, for less than you'd pay for your feedstock.

    Of course it will have higher fixed costs too. But if you're producing a large enough quantity that amount tends towards zero per unit.

    The point is that it's not necessary for these printers to become so fast that they can produce thousands of products per hour.

    Sure it's not necessary. It's just more economical for anything other than really small production runs.

    This doesn't matter if it's a hobby. But if you're claiming this is the third industrial revolution I'm calling bullshit.

    If you're printing at home, you will probably print only a few items every day at most, and you'll be able to afford wait times of an hour or so.

    If those articles are ones that could be mass produced, it'd be cheaper, easier and probably quicker to just buy go out and buy them.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  22. Re:Not a Golden Age - a nightmare. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then we adopt a non-market economy. Make basic welfare available to anyone and give college graduates some perks. Problem solved.

    Of course, it's never that easy when it's time for changes, but I doubt it's going to be anything worse than any other regime change in the 20th century. It's not like we would need to wage wars for resources.

  23. This has been done before by csumpi · · Score: 1

    This has been done before, albeit under different code names. One, that I lived through, was called communism.

    Everyone was equal, had enough money to buy a house, car, weekend house and everything that was produced by the factories and farms owned by the community.

    It was working so well, that not even democracy, or elections were needed. It was a well oiled machine.

    There were some problems with human shortcomings, like greed for example. The people who wanted more. They became our leaders and we compensated them with bigger houses, bigger cars, the right to travel to the evil capitalist countries and the power to control the military, just to name a few.

    There were also people who were not ready for this idyllic way of living. Who pointed out issues with our leaders. They were obviously mentally unfit, and, with great regret, they had to be disposed of. For this purpose a giant meat grinder looking machine was built at the bottom of the Internal Ministry's building, located on the banks of the river Danube. The unfit was quietly ground up into fish food and ejected into the river through a pipe.

    There were other experiments, like the Peoples Temple, unfortunately that had to be shut down by dispensing spiked grape flavored Flavor Aid to the members.

    But hey, next time, it will work.

    1. Re:This has been done before by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      A vote for the economic acrobatics camp, then.

  24. Ugly image on the article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, stop using isometric views. That's not how the real world looks like.

  25. Not just 3D-printing by Yvan256 · · Score: 2

    There's a lot of other machines out there. On the CNC side there's the Mantis, a small desktop-sized milling machine for making circuit boards but it can also cut foam, wax, chocolate, etc. Most people seem to drive their Mantis with motors and electronics made for RepRap printers.

    There's even a milling machine made out of standard LEGO parts (aside from the milling bit). It can mill 3D shapes into floral foam.

    Need a stronger, faster mill? Build Your Own CNC Router has a lot of information, so does CNCzone.com.

  26. Low-end 3D printing sucks by Animats · · Score: 2

    The RepRap and other low-end 3D printers are toys. I see those things at TechShop all the time, but they're rarely used. All they can do is produce plastic trinkets.

    Around $50K, the machines start to get good. Shapeways makes usable plastic parts. What the industry needs is a $2000 machine that really works. There's slow progress in the industry; 30 years ago the high-end machines were as crappy as the RepRap.

    All these processes are incredibly slow. As in hours for one small part. It's inherent in laying down a 3D part in thin layers that it will take time. That's why Shapeways charges about $50 for a 1 ounce part. Injection molding is orders of magnitude cheaper and faster. This technology is not going to replace mass production.

    1. Re:Low-end 3D printing sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "All these processes are incredibly slow. As in hours for one small part. It's inherent in laying down a 3D part in thin layers that it will take time."

      Is it as long as the container ship from China needs with the unloading, distribution and the lazy guys from UPS?

    2. Re:Low-end 3D printing sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the industry needs is a $2000 machine that really works.

      I give you... http://cubify.com/

  27. my Reprap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I took the plunge and my Mendel arrived from RepRap Pro this week. I'm still putting it together, but it's not planned for mass production, it's going to make prototyping dead simple. I also plan to output some of the 3D CAD designs I've been working on so I can get a feel for form in my hand.
    I chose this model because it's upgradeable to three material nozzles in future, has a lot of thought behind it and they encourage you to join in and help improve the design.
     

  28. And when every thing is automated by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    Every thing should become free. Unless there's human labor involved there's no reason to charge for it. Besides, who ya gonna pay? The machine?

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  29. People seem to miss the point... by pjr.cc · · Score: 2

    The point of 3d printers... make no mistake, within the next 10 years 3d printers will bring about the downfall of some very heavy industries.

    Yes, right now they're limited, most people who would build such a thing (and i am one) are going to print things in (not that cheap) plastic but we already have printers capable of printing many different types of materials (including conductive) and in 5 years, those reprap's will be something there will be very big lawsuits over. Much like the digital media industry, the industry will have to cope with the change, they might win a few lawsuits, but they'll ultimately have to adapt. Consider what a 3d printer will give you in a couple of years:

    - glasses (possibly even the lenses for them)
    - fixtures (lights, power points, cases, things that other things hang on - this list is endless)
    - crockery (plates, etc - theres no reason you could extrude a clay or clay substitute thats safe to eat off/drink from)
    - Phone cases
    - its hard to actually come up with a decent list thats compelling cause its just so wide ranging

    With a minor amount of electronics, you can add to this:
    - phone docks, keyboards, stands of so many different varieties, control devices....

    Who'll benefit form this? The people who get on board... the guys who go "hmm, im just gunna make a iphone dock interface you can print an object around rather then making an entire iphone dock" - thats the industry of the future boys - selling electronics that you put inside objects people can 3d print... there isnt one yet, but mark my works, and heed this well as a prediction - in 10 years, this will be a major (or at least up-and-coming) industry. We'll even see a regulation and dmca like laws come into effect.

    But look around you and take a SERIOUS look at the things around you and think, how many of these items could be printed? you'll be blown away by the things you could easily replace with something you can print yourself. The sad fact is people dont really notice until you have one, then you look around and see a whole bunch of industries destined for the scrap heap as people start printing their own items rather then running down the shops to pick one up.

    sitting in front of me, i look and i think "my mouse, my keyboard, my glasses, my 3 hard drive cases, my phone stands, my mouse pad, my cup and the spoon thats in it. all my pens (sans ink)... i could go on".

    The point is, the point people miss, isnt that 3d printing an object is in any way, shape or form more economical then buying the mass-produced equivalent. The point is that i can "have it now" (and have it my way)... much of what we do now and what the internet provided (and what content producers have fought hard to stop) is the "have it now" philosophy. Thanks to scale, prices of printing an object will go down, very far down. PLA and ABS (the main things people tend to use with the repraps) arent cheap, but that'll change. 3d printing isnt about "hey, new mass manufacturing process" cause its just not economical at that and never will be, its about not needing one in the first place, if everyone has a 3d printer (or access to one), whos going to make phone cases when people can just print their own?. The secondary point is you can build things you just cant buy or easily make or you can take a phone case and customise it. I dont know how many times i've wanted a lather or a router or whatever and even then thought "i probably wont be able to make it anyway"... well now i can and easily.

    So right now you can do one of two things, look at 3d printing and see its potential or go "meh" and you'll miss out (even if missing out is simply the opportunity of being involved), but i believe that 3d printing will be one of the biggest and most disruptive techs to hit the world and when it does hit with full force it'll be one of the most important things we'll see - possibly even more important then computing. My point is make no mistake, what 3d printing can and will do will change life as we know it in

  30. Download a iPhone from pirateBay, and print... by RandomStr · · Score: 1

    Ultimately all manufacturing will be "3d printed", eventually...

    The only question is what is going to stop people from downloading an iPhone from pirateBay, and printing a copy.

    And what will happen when the technology matures to the point where you can print out a gold bar?

    1. Re:Download a iPhone from pirateBay, and print... by wertigon · · Score: 1

      Remember that to get gold you need to provide gold. In other words, yes you will be able to produce a gold bar, but only if you first grind some gold you already have into a fine dust.

      Not *all* manufacturing will cease, certainly, but for small and non-complex things, it will cease.

      Unfortunately this will also make coin forgery *very* hard to detect, meaning we will need either a new way to handle cash (BitCoin or other viable currency), or get rid of coins and only rely on bills.

      --
      systemd is not an init system. It's a GNU replacement.
    2. Re:Download a iPhone from pirateBay, and print... by RandomStr · · Score: 1

      Remember that to get gold you need to provide gold.

      Not in the long term, Nanofabrication and eventually sub-atomic-fabrication, will let us literally re-build lead into gold, all ya need is the right amount of electrons, protons and neutrons to feed into the machine. My point is, there will be a point where the evolution of "3d-Printing", will destabilise the basic premise of economics, haves and have-nots...

      But yes I was eluding to the fact that eventually currency will go totally virtual, if there is even a need for money by then; Atomic fabrication has the potential to eliminate poverty and free the world from the devastating effects of global industrialisation, if we let it....

      Not *all* manufacturing will cease,

      Someone will need to make the first one of these units... ;)

  31. Christian Louboutin shop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0