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University Sues Student For Graduating Early
"A student who attended a private German economics and business university is being sued by the school because he finished his degree too quickly. Marcel Pohl finished 60 exams in 20 months, completing 11 semesters worth of work in only 3. The school says it is due an extra €3,000 for lost income because, "its fees are the total price for the studies, independent of how long the studies last." "When I got the lawsuit, I thought it couldn't be true. Performance is supposed to be worth something," Pohl said.
If they wanted to charge by the credit hour, they should have done so.
why not go all the way and say for X cash you get X degree.
As they don't seem to care about any ones Performance just the cash.
Well, let's just say my wife would have lawyered up long ago!
... what do you expect? America is infested with "business" and "management" degree-holders who don't contribute anything, don't produce anything, don't create anything, and yet have managed to worm their way into control of a substantial portion of the economy; and with schools that cater to those hoping to join their ranks. I'm not at all surprised that Germany has the same problem, or that such people turn on each other at the least opportunity. No honor among thieves.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Yet another company trying to legislate itself a profit.
As far as the law *should* be concerned, unless the university had in its contract terms restricting how quickly you can graduate or something to that effect, there's no case here. If they didn't think of that, it's their own damn fault for writing a contract with a "loophole" (although I'd say that graduating that quickly by actually doing all the work quickly isn't a loophole, it's just the right way to do it).
We really need to toughen the laws on frivolous or groundless cases.
Top 3 reasons why that was a stupid move:
1) You are attempting to sue a genius, your odds of winning are not exactly great.
2) You just wasted hundreds of thousands in free marketing opportunities. Instead of praising the student in the media (along with your University's name), you may now end up being hated in the media.
3) Punishing your own clients and making it public has never ammounted to a great business strategy.
That's more or less how such "private" commercial universities work.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Can you please stop posting articles from the Local? As I've explained in other threads, it's a "service" that steals content without attribution from local news sources in Germany Sweden and Switzerland, summarizes it, translates it to English, and sensationalizes it, then makes money off of your page views.
It's crap, it's misleading, and at times it's just plain wrong. Pop over to the EnglishForum.ch if you want to see what expats in the area actually think of the Local.
As for this article, we're undoubtedly missing part of the story. Wait a few hours and see what develops once someone links a real news source.
Funny enough, it will probably cost them more than 3k in legal fees to get this kids 3k.
Best comment from the original article:
"This story really hits home because the same thing happened to me. I finished early, yet was still expected to pay the full fee. In fairness, I should point out it was with a hooker instead of a University. But it's kind of the same thing... right?"
Then is it also safe to assume this "school" would have no problem with a student casually taking courses for 10 or 20 years? Of course not.
One would think they would be proud of such a motivated and capable student, but this so-called Business School is about to get their own expensive lesson in "The Streisand Effect."
Seems odd to me that one could get both bachelors and masters degrees from a university solely by passing a set of exams. In other words, there was no course work required (though it sounds like he did have to complete an internship). A big part of university should be learning how research and think critically - then apply both to the world around you. Doesn't seem like much of that was happening here. This smells like a for-profit diploma mill.
I can't say that I feel sorry that a school that has likely been gaming the education world got gamed by a few students.
"You want me to pay extra? Fair enough. I will go stand in front of the press and declare that, due to the ease of securing a degree, this shall no longer be considered a learned university."
"Well, hang on a minute..."
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
The article doesn't say how fees are handle at German Universities. Do you 'subscribe' and pay by the month or something?
At American Universities, you have two sets of fees, (both paid in advance):
Tuition is by the class or 'credit hours.' If you want the class, you have to pay the fee. If you want to 'test out' of the class, you still pay just as much, but you only have to take one test to prove you know the material.
Fees are there just for being a student during that time (per semester). These go to various perks and stuff you get for being a student. I've been trying to think of examples, but I can't come up with any. I know that a lot of people are always complaining about the 'athletics fee' since they don't derive any benefit out of that.
In this example, he would have had to pay for all of his tuition for the classes he took, but he would have only had to pay the 'Fees' for the 3 months he was actually a student. I can't imagine the University saying, "pay for 2 more semesters because you're too smart." They might claim the right to use your name and story as advertising.
--Welcome to the Realm of the Hawke--
That was how my college viewed the laptops purchased through the school. They were supposed to be paid along with the tuition bill over four semesters, but nearly half of the freshmen didn't make it past the second semester but still kept the laptop. The school would send a letter to them saying to return the laptop, pay the money or possibly face legal action. It usually didn't work, but the school made up for it by charging everyone $2500 for a laptop that would have been around $1500 retail (including three year warranty).
Generally, at least when I went to university, grades where running from 1 (excellent) to 6 (failed in every way imaginable and then some). Grading used to differ greatly between different fields of study. In biochemistry, my field, 2.3 would have been respectable. Good work, not brilliant, though.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
lot's of degrees /classes are just about the tests that test how good that you are at cramming then knowing what the tests cover.
The article says he got a grade of 2.3. Does Germany use a different grading system than the US? Over here that would be a pretty terrible grade.
According to this chart, it's about equivalent to an A-/B+ average under the US system.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Your steps are slightly off, the first two steps are performed by media agencies with reporters,
then a blogger makes a post on his blog that gets the facts even more wrong than the reporter does,
and then someone posts an even less correct summary to /.
AND THEN you get the nerds screaming in self-righteous rage.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
that you pay a university so they can pay rent, salaries of their professors and various other expenses necessary to actually have a university. A person who completed 11 semesters of work in 3 clearly didn't sit in classes (much), thereby not expending the time of instructors nor the space in the lecture halls. As an old room mate of mine used to do in university, he probably signed up for the class and went to the instructor on the first day of class and asked for the final exam.
I'm not sure what the university thinks they lost, aside from some obtuse reference to some sort of IP claim for the quality of the education they gave the guy, which clearly couldn't have been much, since he probably didn't attend classes.
the bigger picture in this that one size fit all idea about college is not working and the push for college for all is leading to stuff like this.
And it is not just on one side it is on all of them.
* College is not the best fit for all learning styles
* The college time tables are not the best fit for today.
* College is not the best for people with disabilities.
* there is to much put on the well rounded ideas.
* Testing needs to be more open book
* Jobs need to drop the idea need college for jobs.
* Jobs need to look at more of a vocational school / apprenticeships system (also put internships in hear (not tied to college))
* More schools maybe should stop offering BA, BS, AA, AS and move to a smaller chunk Badges system.
* Colleges need to cut down the filler and required classes as well need credits.
* All credits for any school need to be transferred 100% no BS like you must take our math classes.
* Drop all swim tests and needed PE classes.
Performance is supposed to be worth something
Yeah, it's worth exactly -€3,000. Maybe you didn't learn as much about economics as you thought...
This will get interesting once the libertarians show up...
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
No, it's not at ALL like Stanford (or any other similar school with basically the same policies).
Specifically, for undergrad Stanford charges flat rate tuition by the quarter for as many units as you can handle (min 12, ave 15, max somewhat negotiable with your advisor but rarely more than 20). You need 180 units to graduate with 1 degree, minimum 135 from Stanford (plus your degree requirements). If you need/want to take summer school, you pay for that quarter. If you need a whole extra year, you pay for those quarters. If you get done a quarter or two early, you don't pay for those (common for BAs majors with lots of AP credits). They just don't allow you to randomly "take exams" (same as most US universities) - you have to take the *classes* to get the units, so it's self-limiting based on how many you take per quarter.
"this seems like a relatively small collections matter, which would likely be handled by masses of demand letters for a period of time before an actual suit..."
Universities don't do collections. You pay what they think you owe, then you graduate. No money, no degree. The story smells funny, which almost always means that we don't know the whole story.
by FreakyGeeky (23009) Alter Relationship on Friday July 06, @03:20PM (#40568013)
* there is to much put on the well rounded ideas.
What, like the ability to communicate effectively through writing?
What, like the ability to communicate effectively through writing? is one thing but ART history, music, other history classes (at the college level), Hip-Hop Dance, Chocolate Science, Wine & Beer, hobby stuff, ECT. Do not belong at the college price level and class time frame.
* Jobs need to drop the idea need college for jobs.
Perhaps my doctor would have lower rates if he didn't go to medical school.
Well maybe they don't need a full 4 years before med school and maybe there should some ideas I like we will help pay off loans if you take medicaid.
But for lot's of other jobs there is not need for 4 years or even 2 also (when most community max out at 2 years)
* All credits for any school need to be transferred 100% no BS like you must take our math classes.
Some schools are a joke and don't deserve their credits to be counted anywhere else for any purpose whatsoever.
Well it's not just joke ones it's community college that had have hit some blocks, also moving from one university to a other.
Also some of the joke ones are a joke if you look at them in some lights but not so much in others. (they should not be tied to the college system) they need a Badges system.
Tribeca flashpoint is good and gives you lots of real skills doing real work BUT it is only a 2 year plan and is seen as a tech school in the light of the college system and that is why * Jobs need to drop the idea need college for jobs.
As why should I go to a 4 year collage and learn a lot of theory with a BIG skills gap when I can go to a 2 year plan and learn real skills.
Where is the AA/AS Gen edu and the BA/BS Gen edu GED system?
We go with hand woven silken asswipes these days. Hand woven by thai child prostitutes for the extra smooth feeling. Apart from that, spot on. Don't listen for the black helicopters, they are in whisper mode anyway.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
They just don't allow you to randomly "take exams" (same as most US universities) - you have to take the *classes* to get the units, so it's self-limiting based on how many you take per quarter.
That's not true at all, most colleges and universities will allow you to take a course by exam. Generally there's a limit to between 20 and 25% of total credit hours, but that's generally not a problem. I know my mom finished her teaching degree by taking two of her classes by exam while she was doing her student teaching, 18 hour days were the norm for her during that semester!
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
My understanding of the german article is that the problem seeems to be contractually he was supposed to pay/studay for X semester a *full* studium, finished before, and now the university want him to pay for the rest he was contractually bound to. Which is perfectely fine IMHO, if I am bound to pay for 3 month rent, and I go out after 2 month, too bad for me I have to pay the third month anyway. Naturally that depend on the extact wording of the contract, but knowing the contract from other university where friends were (Dresden) , they say pay up for X semester, they don't say pay up "until" you finished your studium.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
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visit randi.org
"Consider that in general private education regularly has better results at dramatically less cost "
That's not actually true. It's not even close to true if you remove the schools that are 25k+per year out of the equation.
AS it turns out, Home school 'success' are the minority; however home school institution remove many home schools from there number as 'religious schools' only keeping the success stories.
"Consider that home schooling, when successful, typically takes only a couple of hours per day instead of six or eight - dramatically better efficiency."
No one schooling for only 2 hours a day is actually learning what they should. under 4 is a red flag. What is happening is they are doing the bare min,. easy stuff and not being challenged.
"Consider that, according to an article I read yesterday, the average hourly pay of a teacher in the US is more than the average architect or nurse, with generally much better benefits."
That's simply not true.
I knwo teachers and Nurse, the starting rate for a nurse is 12-20K higher then teachers.
I don't know why your com[paring Africa teaching to america. There not even close to the same.
"Consider that poor parents in the inner city are the most vocal advocates of voucher systems"
ah yes, we should all listen to little educated loud people. That makes sense~
They don't want vouchers, they want better education. Fix the schools.
"What does that tell you about 'free' public education?"
Its also produces some of the best minds in the world.
Countries that have an actually country level education program do quite well.
What you post tells me is that you don't know how to think rationally.
It's incorrect information, anecdotes, fallacies,
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Why would they be proud of the fact that they're selling four years of education which can apparently be done in less than two?
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we're way offtopic here, but I have had some experience in healthcare a long time ago. It's not 'gouging' so much as the entire structure of the health delivery system is built in such a way that everything is treated like an FAA-certified custom-built part for a 747. (The coffee pot on a 747 costs about $5000.) The structure has several components - low volume, high liability, onerous regulatory and reporting requirements, captive markets, and boutique suppliers. The new Obamacare is going to make all of that worse, essentially the entire industry has been sold to the 'beltway bandits', who are used to the government contracting process.
Back in 1979-1980 I took flying lessons. I learned that the crappy radios in general aviation airplanes (that sound like the ordering station at Quickie Burger) cost $2500 each in 1978. At the time a much higher quality CB radio - much newer technology, better reception, better sound, higher reliability, better user interface - cost about $100. the difference was that an aviation radio had to be certified by UL, FAA and FCC. Each of those certifications cost over $1 million (and a year or two) even in 1978, and if even the supplier of a resistor was changed, the whole thing had to be recertified. That cost was amortized over a few thousand radios - adding perhaps $1000 to the cost of a $100 radio, then add normal R&D, engineering, other business costs and markups, and you're going to sell it for $2500 including retail store markup.
In 1977 I worked briefly for a company that made kidney dialysis machines. Part of the machine was a blood pump. A blood pump was a loop of clear 1/2" PVC tubing, looped around a triangle of three little wheels that pushed against the tubing, squeezing it shut in two places at the same time, forcing blood gently through the system as the triangle rotated - a simple, reliable system. The tubing had to be replaced for each dialysis treatment. The tubing was identical to the stuff you can buy in any hardware store today for about $1 per foot ($3 per meter?), but it was cut, sterilized and put into a sterile package and shipped to the dialysis center. It's a low volume business - this ain't WalMart. Included in the cost was all of the testing, analysis, liability insurance, and of course the labor to package, process orders, and ship. Again, it had to be recertified by FDA if the length changed or the supplier changed - cost $1 million. Liability insurance was on the order of 30% of the cost. the market was a captive monopoly - no sane dialysis center would use any brand of tubing except the one provided by the machine manufacturer because if anything went wrong, even if it wasn't the fault of the tubing, the dialysis center would be in deep doodoo. That tubing sold for $150 per unit, in 1977. And the company's profits were only about 22%. (re liability - a very popular heart surgeon I knew personally paid liability insurance premiums of 35% of his gross receipts.)
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
That's pretty-much how the top ones in the US work as well. You can take the hard courses which will give you a great education. However, if that isn't your thing you can take the "Calculus and Society" courses and get a B/C as long as you show up to the exams.
Getting into an Ivy-league school may be difficult, but graduating from one is not. If you're the son of some VIP they can't very well not give you a way to get a diploma.