EU Commission: CETA 'Totally Different From ACTA'

itwbennett writes "Slashdot readers will remember the hullaballoo that arose yesterday over a leaked version of CETA containing key clauses that were 'nearly identical to ones found in ACTA.' Now the European Commission is saying you shouldn't believe every leak you see and that the 'language being negotiated on CETA regarding Internet is now totally different from ACTA.' Well, maybe with the exception of language that appears in both CETA and ACTA but didn't 'originate' in ACTA and therefore doesn't count."

Comments

Well, yeah.

[Johann Lau]

It has an E instead of an A. That's good enough, right?

Re:Well, yeah.

[Forty Two Tenfold]

Not necessarily, but CETA are endangered. They may call upon PETA to protect CETA.

European comisars

[boorack]

What a bunch of fucks. It seems that we won't get rid of attempts of pushing more or less fascist copyright regulation (with censorship attached) until we get rid of them.

Re:European comisars

[Anonymous Coward]

Why yes, but especially this De Gucht guy seems particularly bent on defending the position of certain large American industry organisations. Though that's still a bad one in a sorry lot; he might seem the black sheep but the rest of the flock sure ain't white either.

Re:European comisars

[umghhh]

the good thing about that is that they show to everybody what bunch of fucks they are. The bad thing about this is that this hardly matters. It is as with kids - if t hey ask seemingly innocent question long enough they get an agreement not because we really agree but because we are tired of being asked the same question all t he time. The other problem there is that this is complex matter that does not affect lives directly so there is no majority that would go to EU Parliament with sticks and ropes to hand those assholes. I'd say - hang them all as they do not understand.

Re:European comisars

[Spad]

Don't confuse the EU Parliament with the EU Commission; the former are elected and do a pretty decent job of being representative of their constituents, the latter are unelected and do a pretty decent job of being representative of anyone who pays for lunch.

Re:European comisars

[lordholm]

The Tories are against all measures that would make the commission either directly elected or appointed by the European parliament. So they are not really the best people to refer to in this question.

The reason that the tories hate Europe is that they want their own empire back; complaints about that the commission is not elected are just easy points to sell their ideas to the public, however the Tories fail to see that complaining about this and doing something about it will work against their own policies; so they rather keep the status quo in order to be able to continue bitching about it. And indeed, the European federalists have complained about this for a long time as well, but they actually want to solve the problem.

Re:European comisars

[TheRaven64]

Don't fall into that trap. Who appoints them? I don't know

And there's the reason why it's not worth reading the rest of your post. Why not educate yourself? The European Commission is appointed by the European Council, which is comprised of the heads of state of the various members. The indirection between them and the people you elect is huge. In the UK, for example, you vote for a Member of Parliament (MP). The party with the most MPs selects the Prime Minister (modulo coalitions), who is then the UK representative in the European Council. He, along with the other members, is responsible for appointing the members of the European Commission. So, my influence on the Commission is that I vote for someone who may have a vote for the person that has a vote to appoint the person who is supposed to represent me. In contrast, I have 4 MEPs who are supposed to represent me, of whom one is someone I respect and who I can rely on to act in my interests and the others presumably act in the interests of other members of my constituency.

Re:European comisars

[henni16]

To quote wikipedia:

One of the 27 is the Commission President proposed by the European Council[..] and elected by the European Parliament.
The Council then appoints the other 26 members of the Commission in agreement with the nominated President, and then the 27 members as a single body are subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.

So the parliament has an all-of-them-or-nobody right of approval for the whole commission whose members are picked by the heads of the member states' governments .

Re:European comisars

[mrt_2394871]

...It is as with kids - if they ask seemingly innocent question long enough they get an agreement not because we really agree but because we are tired of being asked the same question all the time...

Yes, but I can't send the Commission to its bedroom to think about how it chooses to communicate with me.

Re:European comisars

[lordholm]

This had maybe some point of truth to it in the 1970s when the EP was not directly elected. Most of the MEPs these days are pretty serious about what they do and becoming a MEP these days is not something that you get to become because you have been a politician for all your life.

Many MEPs are also fairly young career MEPs such as for example Fjellner, Alvaro and in 't Veld. They choose to become MEPs (or rather to try to be elected as MEPs) because they where seriously interested in the EP politics.

It is not 1970 anymore.

Re:European comisars

[Bob the Super Hamste]

It is as with kids - if t hey ask seemingly innocent question long enough they get an agreement not because we really agree but because we are tired of being asked the same question all t he time.

When my kids do this I tell them if they ask again it is going to be time to go sit in the the time out char and when they do ask it again they go right in. It cures them of that problem after only a couple of times. Too bad we can't do it with politicians, as it requires swift immediate action. Maybe if they got voted out of office more often it wouldn't be but they count on constituents having the memory of a gold fish.

Re:European comisars

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I'd say - hang them all as they do not understand.

Oh come on, that's just plain unreasonable.

Much of the draconian copyright regulation within Europe is advocated by the French government, so the appropriate penalty involves a guillotine.

So?

[coder111]

European Commission are corporate whores. They don't really care about wants and needs of the people and never ever had. How is this news? They had same kind of "screw everyone, we'll do what we want" attitude when it came to software patents several years ago.

--Coder

Re:So?

[gruntkowski]

'Mother should I trust the government?'
Pink Floyd was soooo right.

Re:So?

[muon-catalyzed]

They are basically unelected drones with over reaching powers. Until EU starts functioning like the USA with some degree of "responsibility to your constituents" we are screwed.

Re:So?

[Q-Hack!]

You mean lik SOPA?

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, they rejected the first one.

No, they most certainly did not. That was the European Parliament and not the Commission.

I don't recall the USA rejecting anything the MAFIAA has proposed to them.

That appears to be true, and is unfortunately also more or less true for the European Commission. It's quite sad, really, to put it (very) mildly.

Re:So?

[sFurbo]

Do you mean ACTA? In that case, it was the European Parliament that that rejected that. Apparantly as a part of their continued effort to wrestle power from the Commission.

Re:So?

[jez9999]

Are you kidding me? The problem with the EU Commission is that it's *too much* like the US government. You think the US 2-party system has ANY accountability to the voter whatsoever?

Re:So?

[lordholm]

The commission did not refuse, they kept asking the other parties to open up. However the US and Japan refused to open up the negotiations. The US claimed that national security was at stake.

Not that the commission handled things that good, and Karel's actions following the MEPs rejection is clearly a reason to sack him.

I would like to ask MEPs: Please subject Karel to a very intense smacking in the EP and if he does not amend his ways, fire him. Yes, I know that de jure you have to fire the entire EC, but you could just tell Barrosso, that he and the others will loose their jobs unless Karel is sacked.

Re:So?

[Nyder]

...The US claimed that national security was at stake.

...

In way it is, because if they keep trying to pull this shit over us, people might start taking the streets and doing some serious protesting.

It's time for a new government, completely, our old one is broken and can not be fixed.

They should be scared, because as much as I don't care for violence, I see a need for a bunch of people to forcefully removed from office and put in gitmo (ya, you should of closed it Obama, now enjoy your stay there.)

Oh shit, now I'm on some government list as someone to watch.

Re:So?

[dkleinsc]

You think the US 2-party system has ANY accountability to the voter whatsoever?

I've always thought it would be kinda interesting to follow an idea from ancient Athens: After someone holding political office had his term end, he was immediately put on trial for his actions while in office, and could be personally punished for those actions (e.g. a treasurer who was caught embezzling funds could have his own property confiscated).

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know why this will never happen? Because it is the people who would be subject to this scrutiny that have to vote the law through, and why would they? This is the problem with representative democracy as it stands today: the people who make the rules have learnt how to bend the rules to their own advantage. Anyone who make it in politics is a career politician who has no knowledge of how it is to work for a living in the real world.

They're a sleezy pickup artist

[Sasayaki]

The ACTA/etc folks are just like that sleazy guy in the bar.

They have "negs", designed to make you feel bad and insecure about yourself. Piracy is costing the American economy billions. You're the most beautiful woman/man in this bar. You wouldn't steal a handbag. Of course I have no STIs. You wouldn't steal a car...

They'll buy you drinks and they'll tell you any lie you want to hear. They're an astronaut. They drive a Porche. The wording of CETA is totally different from ACTA.

They'll lie out their arses no matter how many times you say no, because all they need is one yes and they've fucked you.

Re:They're a sleezy pickup artist

[Sasayaki]

Oh and take it from me, those ACTA guys say they'll call you in the morning and do breakfast but they never call. :'(

Re:They're a sleezy pickup artist

[Hognoxious]

those ACTA guys say they'll call you in the morning and do breakfast but they never call.

That carries a ten-year jail sentence in Sweden.

well, now we show them that we protest in Europe..

[acidfast7]

and make sure they don't get elected again. meet in the city center in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... oh, and somebody bring those "fireworks" left over from Euro 2012

Didn't take long..

[PerformanceDude]

Honestly, I am surprised they tried again this quick. Normally the politicians let such a controversial issue die down and then slips it under the radar when no-one is watching. This will be interesting to watch....

Re:Didn't take long..

[Sasayaki]

Normally bills that get rejected due to public outcry become riders on other, more socially acceptable bills.

I though it'd be the "Love Your Nation Act: Money For Bridges, and Orphans, and Puppies, and ACTA, and Rape Crisis Centres" act.

You wouldn't vote against money for bridges, orphans and puppies would you? And what are you, some kind of sick rapist who wants your victims to suffer?

Re:Didn't take long..

[JaredOfEuropa]

And that is more or less what this thing has become: a rider. The controversial IP-related clauses from ACTA are getting shoehorned into an otherwise normal trade agreement. They hope that MEPs will not reject the entire deal because of a "bad but small part", to paraphrase one MEP who said she isn't sure whether or not to reject the CETA if the ACTA clauses get tacked on. But that's exactly what MEPs should be crystal clear on: if they reject an agreement, they must also reject anything that has the agreement tacked on as a rider. There's good reason to be clear on that right now; it means that the people negotiating CETA know that they should not add the ACTA stuff if they want to have any hope of the agreement passing parliament. And it is pretty much the only way MEPs can effectively influence the contents of the agreement.

It's interesting to note that some MEPs might actually fall for this; they do not want to reject a good agreement because of one bad rider, no matter how hard they opposed ACTA. "Sure, I am not too happy about this clause regarding our firstborn, but on the whole this deal with the devil looks pretty sweet".

Re:Didn't take long..

[sFurbo]

The European Parliament have been pretty stubborn about such things before, e.g. refusing to accept the entire commission because of one or two unacceptable elements.

Re:Didn't take long..

[FhnuZoag]

I think that's a pretty inaccurate view. IIRC, what actually happened was that this bill was drafted back when ACTA appeared to be succeeding, and so ACTA was used as a template for it. Now that ACTA has failed though, expect to see some serious revisions, or else this bill will never make it through parliament.

Re:well, now we show them that we protest in Europ

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be mistaking the EU for a democracy.... the European Commissioners are not elected but appointed and things have to get pretty extreme before they can be held accountable

Wouldn't Be a Problem

[Bob9113]

you shouldn't believe every leak you see

You know, that wouldn't be a problem if you would show the citizens the treaties you are considering subjecting them to.

Re:well, now we show them that we protest in Europ

[acidfast7]

I never said it was a democracy. However, when one looks up an EU Commissioner, the first three pieces of information are State, Party, and Name. When you don't vote for the party, the individual has no power. And, when you have 5-7 parties/country, each really wants to keep their percentage of votes, so they'll keep "their" Commissioner in line or face the consequences at the polls. A protest just gets the message across in a more rapid manner.

So the wording has been copy-and-pasted?

[Laglorden]

So, the wording that appears in both documents have been copy-and-pasted from somewhere else?

Sorry, I mean, the words have been STOLEN from another source, those filthy filthy pirates!!!

Meh

[Pecisk]

Sounds like usual '**** off, we know what we are doing, and errr, we didn't copied ACTA text there, it just happened to to be there! So, nothing to worry about, no ACTA!' when someone is caught red-handed. And sorry, no official draft available for everyone to analyze - no trust.

Re:well, now we show them that we protest in Europ

[sFurbo]

Aren't you talking about the European Parliament? They are directly elected from the countries, and they are the ones who rejected ACTA. The commission, on the other hand, is picked by the governments of the individual countries (IIRC), which makes them two steps removed from direct elections. Much of the politics of EU for the last half decade or so has been the parliament wrestling power from the commission and bureacrats.

Re:well, now we show them that we protest in Europ

[Anonymous Coward]

No no, this is completely wrong.
It does not matter how many votes the party has. The commissioner is in his/her seat and makes the decisions.
Each commissioner has a working field, so it is not that they are deciding together and outvoting eachother.

Commissioners are appointed in a "we from this country grant that country the commissioner for xxx when we can get the one for yyy" fashion,
and then internal to the country a suitable person is found in the circles of retired politicians.
These politicians usually have done everything during their political career to get the attention of big business.

Re:well, now we show them that we protest in Europ

[FhnuZoag]

Commissioners aren't life positions. The previous commissioners lasted respectively 5 years, 1 year, 4 years, 1 year, 1 year. Gucht came in during 2010. Presumeably when everyone runs out of patience with him, he might be persuaded to go spend some time with his family.

Sure...

[xSander]

Politicians always tell the truth, especially when it's about secretly negotiated treaties, right?

This is why...

[Tom]

...we need actual penalties on politicians who undermine the constitution and such likes.

Right now, they can try, try again until it gets through, because being a politician is one of the few jobs where failures have no consequences whatsoever.

Ah, you'll now say, "but come next election..." - obviously, that's not how it works. Next election, people will vote again based on posters and TV spots, not on a performance evaluation. Everyone knows that, including the politicians.

Re:This is why...

[Tom]

Politicians are just faces that speak for that force.

Wrong. That is part of the whole picture. A single politician is just a face. But their entire profession is that force.

It's not an accident that in most western countries the two major parties have become pretty much identical. It's not a coincidence that they get closer and closer to an even split in votes. This is the system that guarantees them the maximum reliability and predictability.

Re:Of course it is

[rbrausse]

But 'CETA' == 'ACTA'.

PHP?

In the words of The Who

[Jahta]

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

-- from (the aptly titled) Won't Get Fooled Again

Secret negociations

[Yvanhoe]

As long as they will insist on negotiating without transparency, it will be fair to criticize the process and to base our opinion on leaks.

Countering it would be easy : be open ! Is it that hard to understand ?

Totally Different

[Jason Levine]

In the last one, they hit you over the head first and then take your wallet.

In this one they take your wallet after hitting you over the head.

See? Totally different!

why the secrets??

[RobertLTux]

If they really had the "rocks" they would have a site (backstopped by a good CDN network) where folks could see the current text
IN THEIR CHOICE OF LANGUAGE as it is being written.