Asking Slashdot: Converting an SUV Into an Hybrid Diesel-Electric?

joaommp writes "So, my team has started a project to convert an SUV into an hybrid diesel-electric vehicle — basically, an electric vehicle with a diesel engine working as a range extender. We've now setup a campaign on Indiegogo to help with the project costs (we are a non-profit team) and later we'd like to, if the project is successful, be able to provide conversion kits and additional kits for elements of the transformation, like the HUD, for example. Why an SUV conversion? Because a lot of people like SUVs (sense of safety, overcompensation, etc) but they're un-economic and environment unfriendly. I'd like to ask all slashdotters if they have any advice or tips for this project. We already have the project well defined but more input is greatly appreciated before we begin tearing apart the beast. So, if you could help providing additional advice and information, it would be awesome."

Comments

Simple Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Just duct tape a Prius to each wheel.

Overweight Weight Loss Drug Analogy

[Anonymous Coward]

Doctor, I don't like to exercise and I know eating 5,000 calories a day is bad for me.
Can you give me a pill to so I can continue eating bad but will have a thin body of a super model?

Re:Overweight Weight Loss Drug Analogy

[Antipater]

Of course, miss! I have the perfect pill for your situation. It helps your body run more efficiently, burning off all the energy you'll take in and more! Now, you may experience some side effects, such as hyperactivity, nervous twitching, loss of teeth, desire to steal copper tubing, and being murdered. I assure you, these are all normal parts of the weight-loss process.

Use a Lupo engine

[cpu6502]

(1) The 3-cylinder version gets around 85mpg on the highway. Of course with the greater air resistance of an SUV, so you might have to use a 4-cylinder version which burns more fuel, but that's still a huge improvement.

(2) Supplement the tiny engine with an electric motor to give extra bursts of power, such as when accelerating. Basically the Honda model.

(3) Dump the SUV, because it's a highly-inefficient form factor. Nobody needs an SUV unless they own a carpentry business and carry stuff with them all day long. A car is a better aerodynamic shape. My generation never had SUVs (not invented yet), and yet my parents were able to get us to the soccer games just fine with their 4-door sedan.

Re:Use a Lupo engine

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh God the idiotic answer of "Nobody needs an SUV except XYZ".

  - They stopped making the Crown Vic, that means 3 child families must use SUVs and Vans.
  - Modern cars are often rather small, making them worthless for big trips with young children (try to fit two decent strollers in the trunk of something that isn't a Crown Vic, I dare you).
  - The towing capacity of the average modern car is about 1000 lbs (many actually explicitly state NO towing WHATSOEVER). This means that families owning a house, where every couple of months you want to haul a large item home will need to oftentimes rent another vehicle for that purpose. Why not just buy a more versatile vehicle to start with?
  - Modern cars have small engines. This is great around the town, but on the highway, mileage suffers horribly. SUVs get much better highway mileage (not better than cars, but not all that far away) because they often put an appropriately sized engine in them.
  - Some modern cars (not all) do not support roof racks. So you can't even use it to bring a bicycle with you (since you can't tow with it, either) on a small fun trip.
  - If you like to do your own repair work, modern cars are hell on earth due to their cramped engine compartments, unibody construction, and independent suspension (of course, most SUVs have that nowadays too, but not *all* are terrible to work on the way it generally is with cars).
  - They quit making station wagons (give or take) so those customers bought SUVs (which are now being downsized to CUVs, which I guess is the modern day station wagon).
  - It sucks ass getting a flat in a car on a long trip, since most modern cars have a toy tire, or worse, tire goop and an inflator ("clown shoes" as I like to call it). Many SUVs offer a full size spare--extremely handy!
  - Stop using gasoline, use LPG or CNG and all of a sudden driving a V8 doesn't matter anymore (for your pocketbook or the environment). Once you go V8 with propane, you will not go back--the savings over a 4-banger gasoline car along with the actual enjoyment of driving will say to you "What have I been missing?!?!"

Reply and add more reasons you own an SUV.

Feel free to complaint that it's breeders that buy SUVs, because you're probably right. However, without breeders YOU don't exist. Think about that for a moment.

Re:Use a Lupo engine

[HapSlappy_2222]

He pretty clearly stated why they're using an SUV, and I applaud his thinking. Since so many people want the SUV "feel", if he can succeed in this it could herald a major step forward.

It doesn't matter what you think people "need". The "need" behind an SUV is often simply the desire to own a large vehicle. Since that's the case, why *not* try to succeed with a big old truck with crappy aerodynamics and weight ratios? It seems FAR more likely that this generation of soccer moms (who have access to Suburbans and Expeditions) will switch to an electric/diesel hybrid SUV than to a Prius.

Re:Use a Lupo engine

[Jeng]

- The towing capacity of the average modern car is about 1000 lbs (many actually explicitly state NO towing WHATSOEVER). This means that families owning a house, where every couple of months you want to haul a large item home will need to oftentimes rent another vehicle for that purpose.

It is cheaper to have it delivered than drive around with an extra ton or two of vehicle everyday.

- They stopped making the Crown Vic, that means 3 child families must use SUVs and Vans

Minivans are a better option than a full size van or an SUV. Better seating, more flexible, easier to drive and better mileage.

- Modern cars have small engines. This is great around the town, but on the highway, mileage suffers horribly. SUVs get much better highway mileage (not better than cars, but not all that far away) because they often put an appropriately sized engine in them.

Yes, I had an underpowered car once and yes it got horrible mileage, but is not the norm for a car to have an underpowered engine in it.

- It sucks ass getting a flat in a car on a long trip, since most modern cars have a toy tire, or worse, tire goop and an inflator ("clown shoes" as I like to call it). Many SUVs offer a full size spare--extremely handy!

One can purchase a full size spare and doing so is cheaper than buying an SUV for the option of a full size spare.

-

Now there is a good argument to make regarding SUV's and that is at full capacity it gets pretty good mileage per passenger.

Re:Use a Lupo engine

[jittles]

I take exception to your post. Not only is it entirely useless to the OP, its also a waste of bytes. I own an SUV. I average about 28MPG with it. I got it because I could haul 5 people in it for the office carpool, and it holds my hockey bag, my kayak, my bike, and whatever else I want to haul. The seats fold down perfectly flat, and I have used it to haul small couches and other furniture. Would I get better gas mileage with a car? Certainly. Would it seat 5 people as comfortably? Not likely. And I certainly wouldn't have been able to haul all that cargo with a car. Its also a pain to put a hockey bag into the trunk of a car. Just because most people don't need an SUV doesn't mean they can't be suitable modes of transportation.

FutureTruck!

[Breadly]

When I was in university we participated in a competition sponsored by Ford called "FutureTruck" (http://www.transportation.anl.gov/competitions/futuretruck.html) Teams were given a Ford Explorer (truck?) and asked to "improve" it however they saw fit. Most of the teams put in home-made hybrid conversions. some did alt fuels (hydrogen etc). Our team installed a series diesel electric hybrid system using a VW Turbodiesel engine, a tailrotor generator from a 737, a series wound DC motor from a forklift and a big bank of lead-acid batteries. There are LOTs of sources for EV parts and drivetrain design. The biggest challenge for our team was the controls. Isolating the drivetrain loading from the generator loading proved to be extremely tricky. A couple of students with Masters degrees in control theory were just barely able to make the system stable, much less efficient. You're in for a fun project, but a lot of work!

Greenie perspective

[girlintraining]

Invariably, the greenie perspective will rise up in this thread. Here's the most common ones, and a summary of their replies. Think of this as a table of contents for this thread...

"SUVs are the work of the devil!"
The argument will be that you should drive a smaller car. Then someone else will chime in that you should drive a sub-compact. Then someone else will say that's stupid because what if you need the space. Then yet another person will say you should consider public transportation. Then That Bicyclist Guy will chime in and say his is the greenest solution. Anonymous Coward will then pop in and note that we should all move to communes and engage in purity chanting as our principle form of entertainment. He will be modded -1, funny.

"You should just go all-electric!"
Another classic greenie argument. And therein, discussions of carbon offsets, pollution caused by power plants, and the practical problem of limited range will be had, with much stomping of feet, and occasional use of caps lock. Everybody in the replies will be both right and wrong -- hopefully someone notes that it's the overlap between environmentally-friendly and economically-viable is frightfully small and that's the real problem.

"Diesel is even worse than gas!"
The engineers will tear the poor bastards that say this apart. Diesel is actually cleaner, and people far better than I at explaining the particulars of this will enjoy going into great detail and accumulating many +5, informative comments in the process. Europe will be mentioned; along with vaguely disparaging remarks as to the nationality of the original poster (damn americans -- Why u no diesel?)

Finally, there will be only a small handful of posts that actually talk about the conversion process itself. I'll just go ahead and throw my gas on the fire and suggest a microturbine with a (very) large capacitor, which is how freight trains work. *ducks* Enjoy!

Re:Greenie perspective

[girlintraining]

In other news, the International Criminal Court has a warrant out for your arrest. Something about war crimes against the nation of straw men.

They never signed the Geneva convention. They have terrorized our forums, used caps lock on innocents... we will give them no quarter. The bombings will continue until the point is made.

Re:Greenie perspective

[girlintraining]

You sure beat the hell out of that straw man, tough guy.

He deserved it. I've seen him lurking in the neighborhood for weeks... dealing bad logic and negative emotions out of his van. I finally had enough when I saw a 15 year old internet troll from /B/ ave. getting high on memes. The moderators won't do anything about it... I've called a dozen times, and twice now they've given me a -1 citation. So I went all Batman on that shit.

Re:Don't Waste Your Time

[Rei]

Making it a hybrid does nothing for fuel economy *unless it is driven frequently in stop/start traffic*.

Common misconception. The biggest advantage of hybrids is not actually stop-start, but that it lets you use an undersized engine which is run most of its times in a high torque (aka, more efficient) power band. If you used such an engine in a non-hybrid, it'd be underpowered for acceleration and hill climbing, but the electric assist lets you do that.

Re:seems like a total waste of time to me

[ackthpt]

Pfft. All they needed to do was put taxes on Hay, Stabling and Ferrier Services and they'd whittle that down .. uh .. exactly in the way it doesn't do anyting to deter traffic today.

Re:seems like a total waste of time to me

[korgitser]

... at least NY solved the rat problem, right?

do NOT start from an SUV. start from a smaller car

[lkcl]

ok: i've been working on designs for hybrid electric vehicles for some time; i have a 1st prototype project underway at about 30% completion, and am planning the 2nd and 3rd vehicles already. the 2nd and 3rd vehicles will be a saloon and an SUV, respectively, but critically they will be *from the ground up custom built*. there will *NOT* be a *SINGLE* piece of the original chassis used.

why is that? well, it's very simple: they're far too heavy. you're starting from a 2,000kg vehicle where all the parts are designed to transport a 2,000kg vehicle. google "mass decompounding", and you'll find out more about the concept. look up how much fuel is needed *just* to overcome rolling resistance because of the heavier vehicle. it's absolutely insane.

unfortunately, as i've just found out from the 1st prototype, even if you use a 750kg vehicle (a suzuki swift aka "geo metro" in the US), the weight of the four wheels, their brakes and the steering assembly are all a significant fraction of the target weight of 350kg.

so i have instead been looking around for "quad bike cars" - aka "microcars" as donor vehicles. the parts on those are *much* more suited for use in a hybrid electric vehicle. apart from anything, you will *automatically* get better fuel economy simply because of the lower weight.

so what i recommend that you do is to get one of those "microcars", chuck away all the plastic (or fibreglass) bodywork, and then make your own (large) geodesic bodywork *from scratch*, and cover the entire thing with either canvas or dacron (sail cloth). there's a web site online about a guy who makes single-person canoes weighing *less* than a carbon fibre one, out of dacron and a wooden geodesic frame strengthened diagonally with kevlar strips. pure genius.

and because you're making the bodywork from scratch, it'll be possible for you to literally make the vehicle as large as you like. and, because it's made of 1mm or 1.2mm tubular steel in a geodesic frame, it's easy to make (and repair), it's strong, and it's light-weight.

regarding the powertrain: i too originally was going to go for a series hybrid powertrain. but then it occurred to me that that is ridiculous. you have a 240v AC generator comprising a diesel motor and a generator. then you have some quite expensive electronics to convert 240v AC mains down to the DC voltage for charging the batteries. then you have a motor controller, which is also expensive, and then you have *another* electric motor! oh, and then a gearbox.

so the drivetrain i finally settled on (for the 2nd and 3rd prototypes) is a parallel hybrid, out of nothing more than a diesel engine, a clutch, a CVT gearbox (from the donor microcar) and an electric motor. the diesel motor will be connected to a double-ended output shaft from the electric motor, via a clutch. there will be *no* starter-motor (again, saving weight) because you simply disengage the clutch, effectively using what most people call a "push start", and the diesel will kick in. it'll need a bit of computer-control to compensate for the back-lash from the clutch, but that's just software.

this rather crude lash-up is all that distinguishes a series hybrid from a parallel one, but it saves enormously on both the overall cost (measured in thousands of dollars) as well as the weight, which again translates into a cost saving due to not having to lug vast lumps of metal around.

the message should therefore be coming through loud and clear. don't for fuck's sake start from a pre-existing SUV. if you've bought one already, do the planet a favour and scrap it, because there's nothing on the vehicle that is of any use to you in achieving anything *remotely* resembling a fuel-efficiency saving or carbon emissions reductions. if you don't follow my advice, you will find out *why* you should have listened, which is probably a much better lesson for you. i won't say that you will have wasted everyone's money on indiegogo, because you won't have: they too will have learned an incredi