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Is There Still a Ray of Hope On Climate Change?

Hugh Pickens writes "David Leonhardt writes in the NY Times that even as the U.S. endures its warmest year on record (the 13 warmest years for the entire planet have all occurred since 1998), the country seems to be moving further away from doing something about climate change, with the issue having all but fallen out of the national debate. But behind the scenes, a different story is emerging that offers reason for optimism: the world's largest economies may be in the process of creating a climate-change response that does not depend on the politically painful process of raising the price of dirty energy. Despite some high-profile flops, like ethanol and Solyndra, clean-energy investments seem to be succeeding more than they are failing. 'The price of solar and wind power have both fallen sharply in the last few years. This country's largest wind farm, sprawling across eastern Oregon, is scheduled to open next month. Already, the world uses vastly more alternative energy than experts predicted only a decade ago,' writes Leonhardt. Natural gas, the use of which has jumped 25 percent since 2008 while prices have fallen more than 80 percent, now generates as much electricity as coal in the United States, which would have been unthinkable not long ago. Thanks in part to earlier government investments, energy companies have been able to extract much more natural gas than once seemed possible which, while far from perfectly clean, is less carbon-intensive than coal use. The clean-energy push has been successful enough to leave many climate advocates believing it is the single best hope for preventing even hotter summers, concludes Leonhardt, adding that while a cap-and-trade program faces an uphill political battle, an investment program that aims to make alternative energy less expensive is more politically feasible. 'Our best hope,' says Benjamin H. Strauss, 'is some kind of disruptive technology that takes off on its own, the way the Internet and the fax took off.'"

73 of 462 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Do you have reading comprehension problems? The quoted text says "on record". Go look back how far we've been keeping temperature records. Nobody was sitting around with thermometers in the Paleozoic era.

    FWIW, Antarctica is still a desert.

  2. Now see, This is why you are a boob by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    even as the U.S. endures its warmest year on record (the 13 warmest years for the entire planet have all occurred since 1998)

    Now see, statements like this are what make me so wary of trusting anything out of the mouths of the more fanatical members of the environmental movement. Really? So it's hotter today that it was during the Mesozoic era,

    What part of "warmest year on record" is unclear to you?

    What part of the temperature during earlier eras where we weren't on top of the food chain is relevant?

    The sad thing is that most reporters don't even question this patently obvious bullshit anymore

    The sad thing is that many slashdotters wouldn't question your patently obviously boring rhetoric.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:Now see, This is why you are a boob by gmanterry · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Almost all the problems facing mankind and the earth are caused by the same thing. The solution is easy to see but difficult to get people at embrace. There are simply too damned many people on this globe. The Chinese had it right with their limit on family size. We need to trim down the population of the world. At the present growth rate of the population, we will again double in another 58 years. Instead of trying methods to change the climate which will probably not go the way scientists plan, we need an incentive for the peoples of the world to start limiting their reproduction. However the religions of the world will fight any attempt at population control. Like it or not, overpopulation is the underlying cause of climate change and decreasing the population is the solution. It will happen one way or another. We cannot continue to reproduce like rats and rabbits.

      --
      Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?
    2. Re:Now see, This is why you are a boob by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Perhaps the part where the year is not yet finished

      Yes, and it's still summer. Guess you missed that part. It's only going to get hotter. Also, that's totally fucking irrelevant, because it's about how hot it's gotten, not just about the average temperature for the year.

      every single Warmist Chicken-Little alarmist such as yourself proclaiming weather is the same as climate

      Show me where I said that. Come on, show me. Oh, you can't? That's because I didn't say that. You're a liar.

      (but not when winters are colder! No sir, then it means nothing)

      Record winter lows are a predicted sign of global warming. I'm not surprised you don't know that, because you are clearly willfully ignorant.

      all attempts to claim runaway behavior from existing climate change have been proved to be bunk

      We're not talking about runaway behavior right now, we're talking about AGW. Although, now that you mention it, ice on land is melting faster than it's being replenished, faster than projections, and faster than in recorded history.

      your high priests

      Your attempts to demonize science? They fail.

      along with your high priests inability to predict anything about climate changes that actually happen going forward

      And you fail again. In fact, record highs and lows are predicted. Ice melting is predicted, and it happening faster than predicted is not a cause for you to celebrate. All it means is that even scientists are optimists.

      why should we treat you and your disciples

      I have disciples now? Awesome. I hope I don't get nailed up. You are hereby cordially invited to eat my body before my death. Pucker up.

      It all started when you claimed AGW was based on "science", a curious science that silenced detractors and ignored requests to review raw data

      And you lie again. The raw data has been available to anyone in a position to understand it all along. That doesn't include you. Detractors have not been silenced; Big Oil has spent vast amounts of money on studies trying to find some support for their assertions, the same assertions you share. Only, now even Big Oil is admitting that AGW is a real thing. Now, they're only arguing that it is not as serious as it is made out to be. As a predictable next step, they will announce that no, we're actually all screwed. Then they'll announce that they have some kind of solution. I don't need to be prescient, I only need to remember what you have forgotten: the lessons of history.

      and you wonder why more reasonable heads fail to support you now.

      Well, no, in fact, more reasonable people (who are more than just a head, this ain't Futurama — today, "head" more commonly means drug user, but I already knew you were hopelessly out of touch before you said that) actually do support "me" (or in fact, the science of AGW) and you don't. I already know you're not reasonable from your history here, but I decided to respond to you anyway because I had time and I didn't want someone to think that a failure to respond to your inanity was due to believing it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Now see, This is why you are a boob by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      It's exactly people like you that make me utterly ignore, and in fact work against when possible anyone of your dour faith.

      So because some people whose reasoning you feel is inadequate support position X, you assume that position X must be wrong and you will work agains it.

      So can you enlighten me as to how exactly you've come to the conclusion that you should come out against AGW rather than for, since there is plenty of bad reasoning by on both sides.

      After all, humanity as a whole has prospered when the overall climate has been warmer in the past,

      Humanity will survive. A few billion might not, but little threat is posed to humanity as a whole. If most of the world's cities flood, humanity will survive just fine, and eventually recover.

      nd all attempts to claim runaway behavior from existing climate change have been proved to be bunk

      [citation from a reputable source needed]

      along with your high priests inability to predict anything about climate changes that actually happen going forward, why should we treat you and your disciples with anything but utter scorn and ridicule?

      [citation from a reputable source needed]

      It all started when you claimed AGW was based on "science",

      It is.

      curious science that silenced detractors and ignored requests to review raw data... and you wonder why more reasonable heads fail to support you now.

      Oh is that the one where the CRU wouldn't give people access to data that they didn't own? And instead of people going to the owners of the data, they had a shit fit?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    4. Re:Now see, This is why you are a boob by jmorris42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > So can you enlighten me as to how exactly you've come to the conclusion that you should
      > come out against AGW rather than for, since there is plenty of bad reasoning by on both sides.

      Ohh! Can I answer that one! Please?!?

      Simple. There is so much FUD and obvious self serving interest on BOTH sides that trust would be stupid. So I apply logic to the situation thus:

      What are the probable results of the four possibilities? Because that is what it comes down to, we can say with some confidence that there are four, what we can't say with high confidence is the probability of each because the science has become far too politicized.

      1. AGW is real and we accept the IPCC/Progressive solution. According to their own predictions we are probably boned anyway. Implementing the One World Government/Police State that is proposed as the answer to totally regulate carbon, wrecking the first world, transferring most of the remaining wealth to the developing world, etc. leaves us an impoverished socialist hellhole unable to cope with the warming that will happen anyway, just a little less because we won't be emitting much anymore. Better for the Earth than #2 but almost certainly worse for us.

      2. AGW is real and we ignore the greens (mostly because of fear of the reds within their ranks). Things will get warm. Yea it might suck. But it probably won't be the worst to happen to the Earth in the last million years, certainly not the worst thing since the dinosaurs had a very bad day. Good side is we will have plenty of wealth to throw at the problems and Free peoples have a way of overcoming.

      3. AGW is bunk and we fall for a scam anyway. Hosed almost as bad as #1 except without the getting hot part.

      4. AGW is bunk and we are smart enough to avoid falling for the scam. Good times. And soon enough we will move to something better for energy anyway, dead dinosaur isn't going to last forever. Even with fracking.

      So my problem is to pick between 1/3 or 2/4. Can't know which one of the pair I'd actually get though. But from where I sit 2 is better than either 1 or 3 and 4 is of course full of win. So I will take 2/4. Logical choice, logically arrived at.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    5. Re:Now see, This is why you are a boob by thesandtiger · · Score: 2

      In nations where women have good access to education and birth control and where basic infrastructure is sound, the birth rate is lower than the replacement rate.

      The best way to curb population growth is to improve the lives of women and to improve overall public infrastructure.

      Laws like Chinas one child law lead to abhorrent acts and an unstable situation with a radically skewed demographic that will most certainly end in tragedy. Much, much better to improve education and access to birth control and improve public health and the issue will resolve itself without trampling freedoms.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    6. Re:Now see, This is why you are a boob by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Seems odd that a theory is able to be validate by any condition, the models predict everything happening.

      This is a typical response by someone who doesn't understand what was said versus what they imagined. The models do predict these types of event, however.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  3. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by geekoid · · Score: 3, Informative

    Bear in mind, those years where during a period where normal cycles should have been flat of slight cooler.

    That's why they are more proof of Man Made Climate change.
    It's also important to remind people like that because some conservatives make the bald face lie that the last decade or so was cooler. When presented with the actual facts, they refuse to reconsider their opinion. So we need to counter the people spreading that lie as well.
    Could it be more precise? probably. OTOH if you want that level or precision there are plenty of excellent scientific papers on the subject

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  4. Natural gas is not clean energy by guanxi · · Score: 4, Informative

    Natural gas is not clean energy. I seem to remember that the greenhouse gasses emitted during extraction and processing of shale gas, which is the source of most of our current boom IIRC, offsets any benefits. Does anyone know?

    1. Re:Natural gas is not clean energy by Hentes · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Neither is ethanol. As many of the simple minded radical greens, the author can't tell the difference between clean (as in less pollution/harmful environmental effects), renewable and low greenhouse gas emitting.

    2. Re:Natural gas is not clean energy by operagost · · Score: 2

      It's far cleaner (and greener) than coal, which is what we call "compromise" and taking "baby steps". These are things that the climate alarmists don't understand. It also creates greenhouse gases to build solar panels and wing generators.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    3. Re:Natural gas is not clean energy by guanxi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's far cleaner (and greener) than coal, which is what we call "compromise" and taking "baby steps". These are things that the climate alarmists don't understand

      Unlike many issues, it's meaningless whether we find a compromise that meets everyone's political preferences. We need a solution that meets the hard requirements of nature. Climate change won't negotiate with us.

    4. Re:Natural gas is not clean energy by guanxi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why do so many critics of climate change mainstream resort to name calling? I think it's a rhetorical tactic, to appear uncompromising and intimidating. But at the same time, it undermines credibility -- it seems like you have nothing to say and are falling back on tactics.

    5. Re:Natural gas is not clean energy by dr2chase · · Score: 4, Informative

      The more subtle point is that on the one hand it is notably better than burning coal for energy, but on the other hand CH4 is such a potent greenhouse gas that if very much at all is leaked in the process of drilling/shipping/storage, then all the benefits are lost.

    6. Re:Natural gas is not clean energy by dr2chase · · Score: 2

      I think you need to some references to support these things you claim exist. In your list of environmental "stupidities", the only one I know of in recent years is opposition to nuclear plants (given the explosions in Japan and the proliferation risks in Iran, are you sure nuke opponents are really all that crazy? I mean, think of all the setbacks in Iran's clean energy program caused by whoever developed Stuxnet. Way more effective than anyone chaining themselves to a plant. Do you suppose that was a Greenpeace operation?). On the other hand, I have certainly recently read of activists opposing habitat destruction, overfishing, high rates of extinction, and pollution. Are you sure you have an accurate picture of what environmental activists do? Where do you get your information?

    7. Re:Natural gas is not clean energy by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 2

      It would be zero-carbon if we wouldn't put a shitload of petroleum derived fertilizers, pesticides and transportation fuels into its production. In its current form, corn ethanol is only slightly less unsustainable than using oil in the first place.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  5. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by DanTheStone · · Score: 4, Informative

    Not to mention that the U.S. also wasn't around in the Mesozoic. It's not even 250 years old.

  6. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by the_Bionic_lemming · · Score: 2

    I musta missed the last few years then, when was it a middle Carboniferous era after 1998?

    --
    _ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
  7. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by DeTech · · Score: 2

    "they" are telling us not to look at the weather ("boy it's 'whatever' today"), and to look at the climate data ("ooh look at that trend line" )

    If you think "they" are saying anything else you are listening to the wrong "they".

  8. It's always been TOO LATE by OakDragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It seems to me ... and I cannot provide references ... that it's been "too late to do anything" for ten years or more. This always seemed to be a counter-productive way to evangelize. If it really is too late, we need to put resources more toward mitigation (which I suspect will be the case anyway).

    1. Re:It's always been TOO LATE by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Informative

      Here are some references:

      From 2009, Obama has four years to save the world.
      From 2009, Global Warming is now irreversible
      From 2006, the end of the world as we know it
      2005, Past the Point of No Return
      2004, Damage becoming irreversible
      1989, We Have 10 Years.

      Personally I think we've missed a huge opportunity to fund fusion research. It wouldn't actually take that much from a global community perspective. If Copenhagen had focused on funding Fusion instead of trying to make transfer payments to 3rd world countries, they could have gotten support and actually accomplished something. It would have been great. Oh well.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:It's always been TOO LATE by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Informative
      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  9. Wait, Wait, Wait by chimerafun · · Score: 2

    Hold on so what this article is saying is that once again the free market is taking care of us where the government has failed miserably? But thats not what the democrats tell me. The liberals keep telling me how bad the free market is at responding to, well, anything.

    1. Re:Wait, Wait, Wait by gurps_npc · · Score: 2
      I am a liberal and I have never heard that at all.

      What I have heard is a ton of conservative saying that government never solved anything. If you check what you wrote, soemthing pretty close is in it.

      In other words, the claim you just made against the liberals? The opposite claim is what I hear from the conservatives.

      Both are entirely ridiculous. Any sane person recognizes that if something always does bad, it gets replaced with something better.

      You are clearly a hypocrite. People that live in glass houses have no business throwing stones - and you built a glass house with your post.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    2. Re:Wait, Wait, Wait by Brannoncyll · · Score: 2

      Public money is the only way of funding blue-sky research. No company is going to invest large enough sums in a long-term research project that may or may not pan out. However sometimes those projects result in major leaps that would not have happened otherwise. It cannot be argued that government funding has not resulted in significant breakthroughs in energy generation; just read up on the history of nuclear, wind, wave, and even hydroelectric power (you think the Hoover Dam was a private enterprise?). Whether the subsidies are effective or not is another matter, and I will be happy to examine the facts that you mention.

  10. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by nomadic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "But I've grown more than a little sick of Chicken Little, crazy-eyed alarmists preaching apocalyptic sermons with utterly ridiculous language that makes it sound like the fucking end is nigh if mankind doesn't abolish all industry NOW NOW NOW RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!"

    Can you name a single person who has advocating abolishing all industry?

  11. There is a big ray of hope: Sensible policy by guanxi · · Score: 2

    There is a very straightforward solution: Sensible policies.

    I know what you are thinking: 'That's politically impossible'. That's what obstructionists want you to think, that nothing can get done. Don't be so easily intimidated and demoralized. If you want it done, it will happen. Every other advanced economy manages it; we can too.

    The obstructionists are out of steam; their tactics are obvious and they have little left to say. I think Churchill said, 'America always does the right thing, after exhausting all other possibilities'. I think we're just about at that point.

  12. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But I've grown more than a little sick of Chicken Little, crazy-eyed alarmists preaching apocalyptic sermons with utterly ridiculous language that makes it sound like the fucking end is nigh if mankind doesn't abolish all industry NOW NOW NOW RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!

    The sad thing is that most reporters don't even question this patently obvious bullshit anymore, lest someone label them a GW denier.

    What is even more sad is that there is currently no realistic plan for how to deal with the fact that we are currently spending resources like coal, oil, and natural gas significantly faster than they regenerate. (Since these resources generate on geological timescales, not human timescales.) Even if we don't care about the environment, once these resources are depleted, say goodbye to a high-tech human civilization unless we have developed alternative energy sources.

    (Note that we will probably not be able to develop alternative energy sources once we have reached that point, since the development of alternative energy sources will require a high-tech human civilization.)

  13. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by i+kan+reed · · Score: 2

    With highish first derivatives of temperature over time being on the order of a couple of degrees C per millennium, and second derivatives operating on the order of .1 degree per millennium per millennium. To treat 1800-2015 as the same as -10000 BC to 1 AD is crazy.

  14. Speaking of hyperbole... by tgibbs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have no doubt that global warming is happening, and am willing to accept that the cause is, at least in part, caused by man pumping shit-tons of crap into the atmosphere. But I've grown more than a little sick of Chicken Little, crazy-eyed alarmists preaching apocalyptic sermons with utterly ridiculous language that makes it sound like the fucking end is nigh if mankind doesn't abolish all industry NOW NOW NOW RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!! And spouting off laughably ridiculous "facts" like "the 13 warmest years for the entire planet have all occurred since 1998" only makes them sound even more like a bunch of religious zealots than they already do.

    Personally, I'm a lot sicker of people talking about "crazy-eyed alarmists" preaching that "the fucking end is nigh." Who, specifically, are these "crazy-eyed alarmists" and where are they making such predictions? I know who it isn't. It isn't climate scientists. It isn't the IPCC. It isn't even prominent non-scientists like Al Gore who have popularized the concerns of climate scientists. So who are they? Where are they preaching that I've never heard them?

    And while we are at it, who is insisting that we need to "abolish all industry NOW NOW NOW RIGHT NOW!"? Again, I know who it isn't. It isn't climate scientists. It isn't the IPCC. It isn't even prominent non-scientists like Al Gore who have popularized the concerns of climate scientists. So who are they?

    1. Re:Speaking of hyperbole... by tgibbs · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hey, and I'm sick of people who are sick of things without even using sick Google! Here's one example of what an alarmist said [nytimes.com]

      Twenty to 50 percent of the planet’s species would be driven to extinction. Civilization would be at risk.....If this sounds apocalyptic, it is.

      And these concerns are eminently reasonable. There is evidence of species loss, and loss of many species would be a bad thing to be sure, and I can see how a taxonomist would consider that apocalyptic. But seriously, do you regard that as "the end [being] nigh?" And if reasonable concerns about massive displacement of populations due to rising seas and famine due to disruption of food production in currently highly productive turn out to be true, I think that it is reasonable to expect that civilization would be at risk in many countries. After all, there are some countries where civilization already seems to have fallen apart do to political conflicts--severe weather, large numbers of refugees, and interruption of food supplies might tend to aggravate those problems, wouldn't you think? Bad things to be sure...but do you really think that if those predictions come true over the next century or so, then "the end is nigh"

      If you look at his predictions, a lot of them are wild and not backed up by science. "Over the next several decades,....California’s Central Valley could no longer be irrigated." There is absolutely not scientific consensus on these ideas, and climate models are known to be inaccurate at such small scales.

      The words "could be" acknowledge that there is uncertainty. But once again, they are very reasonable concerns. This is, after all, an area where water supplies are already stressed, and the models, however imperfect, predict greater weather extremes. Besides, these are local problems. Would you say that inability to irrigate part of one state constitutes "the end is nigh?"

  15. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We'va also had 5 majour extinxion events during those millions of years. And all of them had something to do with major shifts in climate, caused by external factors: the big meteorite did not kill the dinosaurs. The nuclear winter which followed did.

    Large, fast changes in climate don't matter much to life. It'll recover. We may not. Or we may, but our civilisation is a goner. Or maybe, if we are extra-lucky, we get to only have a major economic crisis. Something like the industrial revolution in reverse.

    Global warming is a serious threat. And we will --those of us below fifty -- have to face its consequences directly. We can only hope that it won't be as bad as the scientists think it'll be, and that it much, much worse than what you see in news.

  16. Our best hope? Please. by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Our best hope is a radical alteration using chemical means?

    Are you kidding me?

    We still use HALF the energy in the US and Canada heating and cooling mostly empty buildings. We could easily just change zoning and tax laws to encourage buildings to have green roofs, provide their own power, use half the energy to heat and cool, and build them for barely more than we pay for buildings nowadays. Practically the entire campus here is built using such buildings now.

    We still have massive untapped energy sources of hydro, mini-hydro, micro-hydro, geothermal, wind, urban wind, tidal and other energy sources that would dramatically impact GHG impacts. In America.

    We still use cars that only get - and this is from an ad last nite - only 36 mpg when we can easily crank out 60 mpg cars today. Or replace 15 mpg vehicles with 30 mpg versions that function THE SAME using technology we HAVE TODAY. Heck, we could replace them in areas where electricity is mostly green (e.g. populated coastal areas) with plug-in electric cars. Or people could bike or walk more.

    There are a lot of very simple things we could do today.

    But ... we're lazy whiners. Period.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Our best hope? Please. by Vaphell · · Score: 2

      We still use cars that only get - and this is from an ad last nite - only 36 mpg when we can easily crank out 60 mpg cars today. Or replace 15 mpg vehicles with 30 mpg versions that function THE SAME using technology we HAVE TODAY. Heck, we could replace them in areas where electricity is mostly green (e.g. populated coastal areas) with plug-in electric cars.

      - energy cost - replacing perfectly fine 36mpg car with brand new 60mpg one is a net loss for the environment. It is estimated that the half of total car-related energy expediture is during its production. In other words even doubling the efficiency doesn't make you break even, and that's not counting additional polution (mining for resources, junking old cars)
      old car: X production, X exploatation
      new car replacing old car: old car already produced X, X production of the new one, 0.5X exploatation
      2X < X + 1.5X
      in short: upgrade treadmill is bad, we should use products to their fullest before replacing (unless new tech is *orders* of magnitude more efficient)

      - bang for the buck - electric cars don't have one yet no matter how you slice it. That's equivalent to asking people to voluntarily take a very real hit to their standard of living.

    2. Re:Our best hope? Please. by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

      Population growth looks like it's going to take off soon because the largest generation of human beings in history is reaching breeding age.

      "the largest generation of human beings in history" has applied to every generation in the last couple centuries. Yes, in spite of the best part of 100 million deaths in WW2, the there were more people alive at the end than at the beginning.

      And yet, population growth rates have been declining pretty steadily for decades.

      USA and Europe are into negative population growth when immigration is ignored.

      China is theoretically into SEVERE negative population growth (one child per family implies a pretty massive population implosion coming up this generation) - though whether they're actually even close to achieving one child per family is debatable.

      The rest of the world is busy trying to keep global populatin growth positive, but as they grow wealthier, their population growth rate is declining as well...

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  17. When you decide to do something. by geekymachoman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Stop being greedy self-centered asshole that main purpose in life is consumation. And it is main purpose in life for many of people. All those that, like George Carlin say, buy things they "DON'T NEED" with money they don't have.

    I don't own a freaking iPod or iPad or 50 pairs of shoes and pants and big screen TV, and don't have a need to "get one" as soon as it starts hitting the media... if there's a practical need for me to get one, I'll get one. I'm not gonna go blindly buy everything. You may think this isn't related, but it is. 90 % of stuff you can buy/posses is BS. More worse, stupid BS. But as long as it's fancy and flashy ... it's alright eh ?

    When you stop simply consuming without thinking, all those factories will gonna close down. Lost jobs ? Oh well, you can't sit with one ass on two chairs.
    Stop bloody complaining, and do something about it.

  18. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Informative

    Yes, it's perfectly clear that the "on record" qualifier still applies to the immediately appended parenthetical about the 13 warmest years, goldfish brain.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  19. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by mr1911 · · Score: 4, Funny

    AC, if you've got a comment, you didn't make that comment. Someone else made that happen.

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  20. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by TheNucleon · · Score: 5, Informative

    The 13 years are those for which we have records. When the Earth was covered with lava, I don't think anyone had a thermometer, smarty pants.

    The vast majority of scientists in the applicable field believe the Earth is warming. If you don't believe it, that's your problem.

    The vast majority of those scientists believe that the warming is being significantly accelerated by human processes, and that the trend line is far sharper than standard climatic cycles would ordinary produce. If you don't believe it, that's your problem.

    Most outcome predictions based on the rate of change we're seeing include massive effects on humanity. If you don't believe it, that's your problem.

    But sadly, you are our problem. People who, despite growing evidence, fail to grasp the urgency of the matter will be our collective downfall. Even though I tend to get very frustrated at the ignorance, I've pretty much just come to accept it. The thing that really ticks me off is that my children will suffer because of people like you, spreading the "it's not that bad" schtick.

    And by the way, industry can mean a lot of things. A clean energy industry would be awesome.

    --
    My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of my employer, my spouse, my children, or my cats.
  21. Natural gas a distraction in context of climate by DragonWriter · · Score: 2

    Natural gas, the use of which has jumped 25 percent since 2008 while prices have fallen more than 80 percent, now generates as much electricity as coal in the United States, which would have been unthinkable not long ago.

    That's nice, but while natural gas is "cleaner burning" than some other fossil fuels in ways that are very significant to a number of other environmental concerns (particulates, sulfur emissions, etc.), its only very slightly better in terms of greenhouse gas emissions for the energy produced, and even completely replacing all coal power generation overnight wouldn't do much for climate change. In the context of climate change, natural gas is red herring, not an alternative.

  22. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by Bigby · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is it really the warmest on record? On what record? The mercury thermometer record? Tree ring record? Ice core record? It was certainly warmer a little over 1000 years ago and one could consider them "on record".

  23. It's science, not hyperbole. by plover · · Score: 5, Informative

    thank you, at least someone gets it. We have only been keeping detailed weather records for around 100 years and now were supposed to believe that this is the hottest its ever been, thats crazy.

    No, he doesn't "get it". Have you never heard of paleoclimatology? Scientists down in Antarctica have sampled cores of ice that have been trapped for millennia, and have been able to correlate the temperatures of the ice as well as trapped atmospheric particles with the time they were trapped. From them, they have determined an approximation of the average global temperature back through time, as well as estimates of things like the percentage of Earth's surface covered by wetlands based on methane levels indicating decomposed bacteria.

    The Antarctic ice sheet has a pretty good record going all the way back to the previous ice age and a bit earlier. It's not like an almanac, where they can ask "what was the temperature on July 4th, 4004 BC", but they can see slow moving trends. For example, they can see a small dip that correlates to the Little Ice Age, and a more dramatic dip from an earlier ice age.

    And the ice sheets aren't the only evidence. Geological records also contain clues about the earlier weather, in the forms of rock scratchings where they were pushed by glaciers, glacial moraines, ancient dried lake beds, etc. And the distribution of fossils can show where climates went from "hospitable" to "inhospitable" to certain forms of ancient life.

    It's just the kind of data you need to have if you are trying to figure out if this decade is warmer than all previous decades in the last 40,000 years.

    There is nothing crazy about it. It's just science.

    --
    John
  24. Not even close by SuperKendall · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We are currently at around seven billion people, starvation we see currently is from political, not technical issues. We do not have too many people, we have some people that suffer needlessly - an entirely different problem.

    The upper growth is around 10 billion people, after that the population will remain fairly stable. There's no reason to think that with technological improvements in obtaining food we could not support that population indefinitely, assuming some vast plague does not take us down a lot...

    Ironically, current warming trends would help us with more arable land, if scared fools would allow climate change to proceed normally.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Not even close by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      current warming trends would help us with more arable land

      Only if we are willing to engage in deforestation that would exacerbate the problem. Did you get these ideas out of a Big Oil coloring book, or what? Meanwhile, our existing arable land is showing massive crop failures for this year, and food is already 20-33% more expensive than it was last year. As it turns out, when you have record highs and lows in the same place in the same year, there's no crops that want to grow under those conditions. There is no plant whatsoever that likes temperatures over 100 degrees (though many plants have adaptations to permit them to avoid damage in those conditions) and no plant that can handle those temperatures likes to be frozen. In addition, there has been inadequate rainfall in our existing farmland.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Not even close by iamwahoo2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Consider looking at population through the prism of a world without fossil fuels and other natural resources. These fossil fuels pretty much make modern agriculture what it is today. It is hard for us to picture a world in which human beings become less capable and have less technology because it is not something we have observed in our lifetimes. However, it can happen, and currently we have no mitigating plan to deal with the dwindling availability of fossil fuels. Once fossil fuels become too expensive for agriculture, we could all be in big trouble.

  25. Natural Gas == Fracking by assertation · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Natural Gas == Fracking == Destruction Of Dwindling Clean Drinking Water.

    Not much of an improvement

    1. Re:Natural Gas == Fracking by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2

      Citation of existing case of this happening needed.

  26. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by jc42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The sentence says this year is the warmest on record for the US. It says the past 13 are the warmest period for the whole planet, no mention of recorded or time at all.

    Actually, you're just showing off a poor understanding of the English language. The actual text in question is:

    ... even as the U.S. endures its warmest year on record (the 13 warmest years for the entire planet have all occurred since 1998), ...

    Anyone with minimal competence in (written) English will understand that the parenthesized part is an addendum to what came before, and what came before included "on record". So that "on record" would normally be understood to apply to the parenthesized extension of the sentence.

    Of course, such a misreading could be due to ignorance or malice. But it's fairly common to make "mistakes" like this for propaganda purposes. I suspect that this was the case here. In particular, I suspect that the parent comment was written by someone (Baloroth 3270816) understood the statement quite well, but decided to ignore the normal reading of the typical English speaker, and claim that it said something other than what it actually said. This was done for the usual propaganda reasons.

    (It can be useful to study propaganda techniques; it gives you the ability to both see through them and also use them for your own purposes. ;-)

    --
    Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  27. Please read "2052" by DaPhil · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I recommend reading "2052: A Global Forecast for the Next Forty Years" (http://www.amazon.com/2052-Global-Forecast-Forty-Years/dp/1603584218).

    It is written by the same guy who co-wrote the 1972 report "The Limits Of Growth" and deals with what humanity will likely do (globally) in the next 40 years (not what we SHOULD do, but what we will most likely do).

    It is very interesting (and actually quite easy) to read and deals among other things with the expected results of climate change.

    1. Re:Please read "2052" by DaPhil · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Apparently, not so bad: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16058-prophesy-of-economic-collapse-coming-true.html

      I have not read the 1972 book, but I think the main point was that economic growth has to stop at some point (because the planet won't support it) and we have to go for a steady-state economy. The problem with that is, while it is perfectly possible to do, it apparently still just doesn't fit into the heads of the people responsible.

  28. Re:petroleum is going to run out some day by garett_spencley · · Score: 2

    Prices are determined by the law of supply vs. demand. As supply of fossil fuel decreases the costs will rise and that will leave people very hungry for energy. People are already complaining about rising energy costs and fossil fuel is still relatively extremely cheap.

    So long as "we all agree" that fossil fuel is not inexhaustible, then it's pretty much common sense that there is going to be a massive market for alternatives in the future.

    I have nothing at all against investing in those alternatives. I just don't see the point in using tax money to do so. Not only do I think it's unnecessary but I think it's counter-productive; which is to say if anything is going to prevent alternatives from coming to market it's going to be government intervention that keeps new energy start-ups out of the market as a favour to the giants who lobby and buy politicians. One can even argue that direct funding of alternative research by government is potentially dangerous to the emergence of "viable alternatives" because tax money doesn't generally have a way of finding itself in the pockets of those who are competent and capable of building, producing, marketing and distributing things on their own. Instead it finds it's way into the pockets of those are really good at getting things from government.

  29. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by Bardez · · Score: 2

    "David Leonhardt writes in the NY Times that even as the U.S. endures its warmest year on record (the 13 warmest years for the entire planet have all occurred since 1998) [...]"

    Actually, the parenthetical claim is clearly saying that the absolute warmest years for the entire planet have been since 1998. The claim is an example of poor writing. Just because the meaning can be inferred does not mean that it should be necessary to do so. The possibility of inferring the meaning does not excuse the writer from the onus of clear and precise communication.

    --
    Perception is the thin dividing line between reality and fiction.
  30. Re:In short? No. by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2

    No it is a case were a particular generation, due to demographic factors, always got its way, and upset the intergenerational transfers, where education must be balanced with retirements and unemployment. The baby boom passing through the system tilted it always towards them. They got their education cheap, they got inflation as wage earner which allowed them to buy property for cheap, and now that they retire, they force deflation and cuts to education to pay for their retirement.

    Their parents, on the contrary constructed a society for their children rather than for themselves. Are they responsible for all the ills in the world? No. Are they responsible for being selfish arseholes (collectively) who caused a situation were education and research get sacrificed on the altar of retirement funds? you bet.

    And that is stealing the future.

  31. Cap and trade is old school thinking. by wcrowe · · Score: 2

    I remember twenty years ago or so when Al Gore was stumping for more public transportation. Even then I thought what a ridiculous, old-school, political-suicide-inducing idea that was. Why the hell are we commuting in the first place, when so many of us could do what we do perfectly well from home (or some other location)? Instead of forcing people to ride buses like a bunch of proles, the government could create telecommuting initiatives. At least it would be a lot cheaper and bound to be more popular.

     

    --
    Proverbs 21:19
    1. Re:Cap and trade is old school thinking. by CannonballHead · · Score: 2

      A lot of jobs *cannot* be telecommuted to. In fact, I'd venture to say that *most* people can't telecommute to their jobs... only white-collar computer jobs. Construction, menial, farm/agriculture, and in-person services can't ... which, I dare say, probably accounts for more jobs than white-collar/tech jobs.

      That said, our internet infrastructure has problems. I'm 10 minutes from 35,000 pop town and 20 minutes from 1,000,000 town and the best I can get is satellite or line of sight wireless.

  32. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No, "for the entire planet" means in contrast to specific parts of the planet which have not necessarily had their warmest years since 1998, as in global average temperature. Repeating "on record" every single time once the context has already been established would be bad writing.

    Just because it is possible for you to deliberately smash the language centers of your brain that normally work just fine so as to manage to misunderstand perfectly clear English does not make it the writer's problem.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  33. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2

    No. More like actual risks of famine and drought. In fucking developed countries.

    Also, I don't like heat very much, but that is pretty minor ;)

  34. I've seen this logic before by hort_wort · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Every time I read one of these climate change stories and the comments shouting "hoax!", I think back to a story. A professor was asked to study the atomic bomb yields and say whether or not it would ignite all the oxygen in the atmosphere and destroy the Earth. He came back a short time later and said, "No, of course not!"

    After the test, his colleagues asked him how he arrived at his answer so quickly. He said, "Well, if I was wrong, who would've known?"

    Ahem. Global warming and the self-destruction of mankind is a hoax!

    Also, if a scientist came along with conclusive evidence that there was no such thing as global warming, he'd get a *LOT* more money. Think about it. How much would the oil companies pay for such information? There's no selfish reason to lie about this.

  35. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Technically it would have to be read as only the hottest in the hundred or so years we have records for. But it was written such that most people will read it with the meaning of 'hottest evar'

    The context of "on record" was clearly established. The only part of the context that changed -- from hottest year in the U.S. to hottest years for the whole planet -- was also clearly established. Most people do not have goldfish brains and can keep track of this context for six whole words.

    So, only people who wanted to invent a reason to complain would read it that way. Everyone else knows that the author did not suddenly, mid-sentence, despite already qualifying their claims with "on record", expand the context to the entire history of our rock ball which was at one point molten.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  36. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by Dahamma · · Score: 2

    Even if your (or the previous similar comment's, or the original poster's) interpretation made sense - which it doesn't - what amazes me is how perfect an example these posts are of the usual bullshit arguments against climate change.

    You can't question the facts, so you question the grammar of the person stating the facts. I believe that's called an "ad hominem"...

  37. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But I've grown more than a little sick of Chicken Little, crazy-eyed alarmists preaching apocalyptic sermons with utterly ridiculous language that makes it sound like the fucking end is nigh...

    You are, of course, talking about the people who spout the bullshit about how if we dare to be a little more conservative with our fossil fuel use, the economy will collapse and we'll all live in caves, right?

  38. It's not TOO LATE; it's never TOO LATE by Ken_g6 · · Score: 2

    Given enough clean energy, we can always build a plant that will take CO2 from the air, combine it with hydrogen from water, and make hydrocarbons. We can then gasify the hydrocarbons to produce carbon. And pure carbon (as opposed to CO2) we can sequester easily.

    Don't believe me? Look out your window. See that plant? No, the living one. That's such a plant. Then the gasification produces charcoal. Or, if you can't get enough of those plants, for this function, they can be replaced.

    --
    (T>t && O(n)--) == sqrt(666)
  39. What are we doing about it? by bzipitidoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Never mind the trolls. And forget about our nominal leaders. They follow us, not the other way around. So, what are we going to do about climate change?

    My house is a 70's era of about 2200 sq. ft., with a gas furnace, gas water heater (tank), and a 12 SEER A/C. The location is suburbia, and there's nothing I can do about that. It's be nice to be within walking distance of necessities, but that's just not happening. I've got us down to about $1500/year on energy costs. I understand that's very good. But I'd like to do more. I've already done most of the easy stuff. Most of the lights are CFLs. I set the thermostat at 82 in the summer and 70 in the winter. (I'd push that further, but the rest of the family whines too much when I do.) The house is well shaded by mature trees on the south side. But according to my calculations, half of our energy still goes towards heating and cooling. I have fuel efficient cars, and a plug in electric mower that I use as little as possible. I was very happy to bid farewell to the CRT.

    I'm looking for paybacks of no more than 5 years, but that depends on price. I'll accept longer paybacks for cheap stuff. Ideas like putting in double pane windows filled with argon gas, roof vents, solar cells, solar water heaters, water recapture, and other expensive home remodeling notions simply aren't worth the cost. I heard that leaky ductwork can be a big waste of energy, but in this house, the ductwork is inside. The hallways have lower ceilings than the rooms. Anyway, it's a poor quality cookie cutter home. Hate to spend money on a piece of crap house. But if a bit of remodeling isn't worth doing, then knocking it down and starting over sure isn't worth doing. There are other things. I have a few 80%+ efficient computer power supplies, and some of those green power strips that automatically cut the power to peripherals when the main computer is off. For convenience I leave a computer running all the time, however it takes only 20 watts. It'd be better if I could get power management working in Linux. Even at only 20 watts, automatic suspend to disk could be a big saver if only it worked. Replaced a 40 watt fluorescent light fixture with the new 32 watt kind when the ballast went bad.

    In any case, I have the feeling that's all "small ball". As a whole, our houses are poor and our cities are oblivious to all forms of transportation other than the almighty car. It's exasperating how much low hanging fruit we are ignoring. Automobile aerodynamics is a big one. Why isn't the underside of every car nice and smooth? Because no one looks at that part of the car. Why don't we have skirts on the wheels? Because they look "ugly"! A huge saver would be the electric car. I'm impatiently waiting for decent batteries. Would like to see at least 500 km capacity on a 15 minute charge, and able to last several thousand cycles.

    --
    Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    1. Re:What are we doing about it? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 4, Informative

      Solar attic vent made a big difference to me. The air started blowing colder in seconds after it startted.

      If you are in the south, EER matters more than SEER.

      I found that wrapping the ductwork in radiant barrier was cheap and highly effective.

      I mostly went straight to LED. 3000kelvin is a better quality light than 2900 (too orange).
      The new 3500 kelvin CFL light from Home depot (red box) is nice. Real white- not blue- light.

      My bill is down from 1500kwh to 1243 kwh.

      I recently bought a "Spinray" solar panel. These only make sense at $500 a panel. With federal tax credit they currently run $1000. They were $700 with credit when I bought mine but they shot up in price.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    2. Re:What are we doing about it? by BlackSnake112 · · Score: 2

      Put evergreen trees/bushes on the north side of the house. Add more insulation to the attic and walls if you can. Sorry but replacing the windows with double pane one or even triple pane ones does pay off. If you have not done so put vinyl siding on the house. Remember to add the insulation that goes under it when you do. I think you can do the same with aluminum siding. It has to be done when the siding is being put up. Also how old is the roof? Adding the attic vents when the roof is being done is not really a major expense. If you do get a new roof, do not be too surprised if they say you need the wood replaced as well. If you have a poorly vented roof, the wood gets soft. It adds to the cost, but if they rip off the roof wood and all that is the perfect time to add insulation to the attic. How old is the gas furnace? If it is original, time to upgrade that. If you get it changed in the summer , it is cheaper than the in winter. Remember to pick an efficient one. The same goes for the fridge, washing machine, drier, and dishwasher. If they are 10-15+ years old. Look into upgrading them to newer more efficient ones. Those are more of things you change when they break items though. Also look at your doors. Like windows, if they are original, they could be changed to more energy saving ones. Remember to insulate around the door frame. Even if you use that spray foam insulation. I did that on a sliding glass door that was installed in the 1960s in a house (build in the 1940s). That alone helped keep the heat inside in the winter.

      Of course if you are not planing on being there for the net 10 years skip all that.

  40. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Records" include ice cores, pollen samples, a lot of contemporary data going back a long way. I found the phrase ambiguous too, although not to the rage level of the OP.

    --
    Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
  41. Re:AGW deniers? Let's do the atmospheric gas math! by Oakey · · Score: 2

    So from 0.0004% to 0.000548%?

    --
    "Dre don't get as high as me.... I'm Cheech and Chong" - Snoop Dogg
  42. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by hkmwbz · · Score: 2

    On what record?

    The one with actual measurements. I'm guessing you knew that, though and are just faking ignorance because it helps you undermine the science.

    --
    Clever signature text goes here.
  43. The media IS very alarmist by INowRegretThesePosts · · Score: 2

    There are many lunatic environmentalists that claim "civilization as we know it will be no more" because of global warming, unless we reduce global population by 90%, or mandate 20 years of zero economic growth for "rich countries", or something equally absurd. Some borderline sociopaths have even calculated the carbon footprint of African babies. Oh, and waging a campaign of hate against "deniers" does not help (see that infamous 10/10 video).

    See
    1. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/8165769/Cancun-climate-change-summit-scientists-call-for-rationing-in-developed-world.html
    2. http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/warmlist.htm (lots of examples of ridiculous alarmism)
    3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_parity

    Now, let me make myself clear: AGW is probably real and it makes sense to work against it. Still, the end is NOT nigh, and there is no reason for authoritarian measures such as reducing human population or severely crippling the economy.
    The market is already moving in the right direction. If we want to accelerate it, then some slight subsidy for renewable coupled with some slight overtaxing of oil/coal is enough.

  44. Re:Now see, it's hyperbole like this by AssholeMcGee+ · · Score: 2, Informative

    They have only been keeping records for 150+ years, and there is no telling how accurate the early records really are. Take into account that most cities were still rural (like) and not as advanced as cities today with being primarily asphalt and concrete, which adds another 10+ degrees to the actual temp. There were not as many cities recording and reporting temps like there have been prior to the 90's. I could go on and on.. I am not denying global warming, but if you are going to be fair and scientific you need to look at all the factors, the idiot media takes scientific reports out of context to make a buck.. People should stop worrying if it is true or not and ask themselves what if? I am not sure if people are just arrogant with there belief systems thinking it is god will, or the figure they will not be alive by the time anything major happens so f**k it. Take a quote from Master Shake's Self Help book When a problem arises, and there appears to be no solution!!! "lets all take a nap and hope it goes away"

  45. Re:Oh look it's my mod troll again by SwampJack · · Score: 2

    I'm not the mod but obviously your comment was marked overrated for a number of reasons. Ascribing it to an agent of BP or DuPont is a delightful display of your paranoid personality disorder. As though the people that run this world give a crap about your high and mighty opinions. A glance at the prolific number of comments you make on Slashdot each and everyday reveals you have very little to do with your life but try to prove others dumber than you. Well done. But, back to your comment. It was modded overrated because it is dismissive without much substance. You make assertions without backing them up. Some of those assertions are just plain wrong. For example, the original poster makes a valid point about the role of fossil fuels in the development of agricultural revolution. Your assertion that things can be grown just as efficiently organically is baseless, incorrect, deluded hippie-speak. On to your completely incorrect, yet ironically entertaining, understanding of economics. If something is "cost-effective" that means it is profitable to use it instead of alternatives. Do you see how stupid it sounds when I say "BP and DuPont could make a larger profit by switching from oil to algae, but instead they are financing a conspiracy to make smaller profits -- just so they can destroy the Earth" ? Its ridiculous and reveals a person who, behind those words, sees the world in an illogical way. The only consistency I see to your words is that you feel everyone (except you) is evil and everyone is out to get you. I would go on, but since you don't generally give people the consideration of thoughtful discourse, I see no point. But, if you get a chance, define narcissist.

  46. Re:We are moving in the right direction by guanxi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    if you make loony predictions (such as "the end of civilization as we know it") and loony proposals (such as forcing twenty years of zero economic growth in "rich countries"), then nobody will listen to you.

    No serious party is making those predictions or proposals. Only the deniers characterize the argument that way. Read the actual science and proposals, instead of the characterizations by their political opponents; for example read the IPCC reports (or just the summaries, which are relatively short); they are what you are looking for.

    Your assurance doesn't help in the face of the facts. Also, the free market would work better if those emitting carbon had to pay for it, instead of dumping the cost on everyone else: It creates a false incentive to the emitters (carbon emission is free!) and runs up my taxes and bills.