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Should Developers Support Windows Phone 8?
Un pobre guey writes "Should you develop apps for Windows 8? Well, the hype and flogging are apparently in full swing. From the article: 'To be clear, Windows Phone 8 is not a slam dunk. Some, such as IDC, believe Windows Phone will eclipse iOS by 2016. Others, though, believe the trajectories of Android and iOS can't be slowed in the next few years. Nonetheless, I think a bet on Windows Phone 8 is justifiable, even wise, since anyone who purchases a new Windows Phone 8 device likely will want to load it with the latest and greatest apps.'"
Another reader points out that the full Windows Phone 8 SDK was leaked online recently, which led to some interesting discoveries: "For starters, it appears that the API is very much like the full WinRT API, but it has no JavaScript support. There is also no support for creating and working with Silverlight/XNA style. This is a bit surprising because I and most developers were under the impression that Microsoft would support the migration of Silverlight apps to HTML5 and JavaScript, but there isn't even support for JavaScript to access the phone's services. The best you can hope for is using the JavaScript support in IE10."
will anyone hear it?
Ok, so will there really be much of a market when most fanbois will be getting x86 Windows 8 devices and skipping on Metro? Without any support on the desktop/laptop side what does Windows Phone 8 have going for it to attract developers? Single digit market share for many years should be expected with WP8 while Android and iOS split the market and continue to grow.
Just like WP6.5 and WP7, it won't matter how many hundreds of millions or even billions in marketing Microsoft spends, without the ability to eliminate Android from the market WP8 gets no love outside of Redmond WA. IMO
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Perhaps... but I can't help feeling that Windows Phone (as a platform) is still very much a second-class citizen. For one thing, the Windows Phone 8 SDK is still not available (excluding the leaked copy) and we're only months away from Windows 8 (RTM) and a little later, (October??) the Windows Phone 8 handsets and Tablets come out. We haven't even seen a beta or RC of the SDK..
Worse still, given the amount of rework which devs will need to undertake to port their existing Windows Phone 7 apps to Windows Phone 8 (for the use of the WinRT API, for example). This is a baffling move, and given the history of the Windows Mobile line.... it's getting to be a bit rich.
Also, I disagree that the market place is mature. There's not nearly a large enough user base to make that statement, and hearing that Windows Phone 7 handsets won't support an upgrade to Windows Phone 8 may hurt.
face it, the days of people spending $20 on stupid beer drinking and fart apps are long over.. this is why most mobile devs saying stuff like this are butthurt.. people won't pay for crap anymore. they will however pay for substantial apps that are reliable at the required task....on any platform.
Will it sell? So far their phones haven't sold in any volume, even Samsungs Bada OS has sold double that.
Will you gain a skill useful elsewhere? I doubt this platform will be used anywhere else, their platforms are very fragmented at this point.
Will it succeed in a niche? Erm, well no, can't think of a niche for it.
I noted the cost ($10k) MS was charging XBox games developers to certify every app and patch and I reckon if you ever make a successful app, they'll milk all the profits out in certification fees and fees to be included in the app store.
I see FP is in love with Visual Studio, but you're probably better off getting up to speed with Eclipse at this point.
Betteridge saves the day again!
No.
(Score:5, Informative)
Perhaps, but how many people use Windows phones?
Eleven.
Um, mine died. So ten.
Should Developers Support Windows Phone 8? I am reminded again of Betteridge's Law of Headlines which states "Any headline which ends in a question mark can be answered by the word 'no'".
I am a Windows developer but if I'm going to develop smartphone apps it'll be for whoever offers me the biggest market: Android and the iPhone. Microsoft has a perfectly decent desktop OS, but instead of finding ways to reinvigorate the desktop using innovative technology (the way Jobs would have) they are chasing the smartphone market in a way that spooks desktop developers such as myself. I find myself not thinking "Windows for Smartphone" and now not even "Windows for desktop" but "Android for Tablet". Microsoft needs to stop copying other people's ideas, but just because it's immoral but because it's a lousy business strategy: It didn't work for Bing, Zune or anything else they've copied lately. If Microsoft don't do a reality test here they're heading for an even bigger disaster as they scuttle their flagship platform.
Or in 2 words: Betteridge's Law.
Yet another slashdotter with a whopping 2 posts to their name, a 7-digit UID, no karma to speak of, who managed to land on the site right as this article was posting to drop some praise for MS. Hey look, you got the achievement "posted a comment" today, but Im sure this is an honest opinion, right? Just happened to be a positive comment about MS 60 seconds after an article on MS was submitted?
You all really do think we're stupid, huh? That we wont notice the EXACT SAME THING happening over and over?
Why didnt you manage to work any subtle jabs towards competitors in? Oh wait, you did, well done.
The Android 'Fragmentation' is a red herring. If you are going to complain that there are more than one version of the OS in the wild, MS's phone OS is not what you could call "gotten right". Have they had a single version that could run the previous version's apps? 6, 6.5, 7 and now 8 are all completely incompatible with each other. And no phone gets updated to the new incompatible version.
Of course, maybe we are reading it wrong. Maybe the prediction that "WP8 will eclipse iOS by 2016" means that analyst thinks the 10 WP users will eclipse the 5 users left on iOS. It seems unlikely, but it seems just as likely as WP8 gaining as much market share as Apple has now.
Good riddance. If you're so poorly educated that you think that the US has a free market, then we definitely don't need you around. The US has crony capitalism instead of a free market, otherwise it should be trivial to buy a computer without having either OSX or Windows installed and the laws would require MS to give full refunds conveniently for those not wishing to use their products.
Linux is better now than it ever was, provided you choose a sane distro.
I suppose I just don't get excited by phones anymore. Either IOS or Droid does everything that you could really need from a phone. I'm not saying that its perfect, but it seems like we've got to the point where its good enough for 99.99999999% of the situations that will arise.
Windows Phone 8 isn't even out yet and it's already irrelevant.
No one wants it:
End users don't want it because the launch phones are uninspiring and lag the competition in both specs and style. Besides, it's Windows. Who chooses Windows if they have an affordable alternative with all the apps they need?
Developers don't want it because it lacks users and so far the platform looks less capable than either iOS or Android. It's also not a sure thing in the marketplace long-term, MS has already made developers for their mobile platform redevelop everything TWICE, so any development investment has a good chance of being wasted. Backwards compatibility used to be one of Microsoft's big things, but not on mobile.
Corporates don't want it because it doesn't yet have the central management facilities that iOS, Android and especially BlackBerry have. Its basically a brand new OS for mobile and corporates take time to make decisions and switch. Meanwhile, Android and iOS are taking over and show no signs of stopping.
Also, after Windows 8 comes out for desktops, Metro is going to be the least popular user interface style on the planet after it catastrophises everyone's Windows desktop experience. This does not make for a popular phone OS.
In short: Windows Phone 8 is dead already, it's just Steve Ballmer is too desperate to keep his job to notice.
There is no "news for nerds" value in his astroturfing, so he doesn't deserve getting a front page post, nor does he deserve a break.
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
On top of that Windows Phone 7/8 supports the fantastic developer tools that is Visual Studio. There is no better IDE around and I really wish I would have it on my OS X.
Surprised to see a macfag shilling for Microsoft.
That's offensive. Just because one uses Apple, does not mean they are gay. They are predominately metrosexual. There's a difference.
How does Microsoft make money off of Android?
By engaging in a patent war and bullying other corporations into just paying the extortion fee to use their highly questionable claims on the technology involved in Android.
MS is not the only doing this either. The whole thing is disgusting.
Android doesn't really have fragmentation issues. Older apps run mostly fine on newer phones, and google supplies a compat library for newer apps to run on older phones.
What Android has is choice. Win Phone 7 didn't have that (specs set by MS). i don't know if Windows Phone 8 will or not. but it doesn't really matter because -
MS are not cool.
They're like your dad trying to dance at a nightclub. Even if he gets it right, he's still your dad and it's still highly embarassing.
Linux was a good idea, then the zealots got a hold of it and now its a pile of crap.
When exactly was it that "the zealots" wren't part of Linux? The GNU stuff was founded by zealots. The kernel came out of the Minix hobbyist community which have no interest in the sorts of standardization you are talking about.
Linux is crap, deal with it. Don't argue with me, don't lie to yourself, fix it.
Linux owns
-- a huge chunk of the server market
-- essentially all of the super computing market
-- a huge chunk of the embedded market
-- is becoming a major guest OS for new development on mainframe
The purpose of the GNU project was to create a free Unix on par with the commercial Unixes. Linux has killed off most off the commercial unixes. Digital Unix, , Irix, SCO are dead and HPUX, AIX and Solaris are on life support.
I don't think the Linux community has much to be unhappy about. That's a very successful OS by any standards and it achieved the goals of the GNU project. The enterprise and personal desktop market has had huge improvements since the mid 1990s and Linux hasn't been able to gain enough ground for those 2 segments. Oh well.
Is what phone/OS a developer supports supposed to be up to some groupthink decision based on some "prevailing wisdom?"
I may be picking a few nits but this seems to be a thinly veiled form of Begging The Question considering the obvious bias in the submission.
I really thought Microsoft had a chance with WP7. I said repeatedly they could at least show a strong third place, possibly even take over Android's position.
This was based on WP7 being really well designed, Nokia hardware being really good, and Microsoft pouring a ton of money into having a really competitive app market.
But Microsoft has screwed this all up. WP7 developers have to re-work how they develop. Hardware that should have formed the base of a wave today, will not even support WP8 tomorrow!
Microsoft is still pouring a ton on money into app development but as far as introducing platforms, it's like they are starting from scratch AGAIN and WP7 never happened. They were late before, now they are WAY too late.
Perhaps they can still pull back. Perhaps Surface will do really well and drag WP8 along behind it. But they have a massive uphill climb now, that they made worse by digging down a mile or so to start with.
Good luck Microsoft, and I say that because Apple and the market in general need strong competition... but the odds look long and I hope you realize that.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Mod this up.
Most apps are crap that barely works, and that includes iOS and Android. Crap like that usually does not fly on a PC or a Mac.
The ones that are coded somewhat well, are barely even worth 99c. People are getting wise to that and don't want to spend a ton of money on something that gives them very little return.
If a developer really wants money then they need to deliver a truly working app with a lot of useful features. Angry Birds makes money because it is not only written well with few bugs, but is also an engaging game with more than just a few levels.
Make something really good and you will get paid.
Nine, actually, I threw the Lumia they gave me into the sea. Didn't illuminate it well if you want to know.
Suppose you've already got a game where most of the core code is written in C++ and uses OpenGL. Right there, you're hitting iOS and Android (assuming a minimal amount of Objective-C &Java simply for integrating into the platform).
Now you've got a decision: work on some cool, valuable features for the next version of the Android/iOS game, or completely re-write it using the Microsoftie languages, technologies, and UI idioms they force you to use, and have to maintain two code bases. I know which one I'd choose
Windows Phone is not going to get any real developer love until they give in and stop forcing their technology stack on us.
Microsoft, while you're bootstrapping your platform and trying to attract developers, wouldn't it make sense to make porting easier?
Perhaps, but how many people use Windows phones?
Eleven.
Smirk all you want, but that number might double over the next year.
I don't know why developers never took to the platform -- there isn't a reason they shouldn't support it, and whether WP8 will change their minds remains to be seen.
I can think of two simple reasons:
1) There aren't many users.
2) Since WP7 didn't support C/C++ code, you can't just port your app and write a new GUI (like you can for iPhone and Android), you have to write the whole thing from scratch. Is that worth the effort? Probably not, because of 1.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Microsoft hires Burson-Marsteller CEO Mark Penn
Mark Penn is the current CEO of astroturf and online sockpuppet firm Burson-Marsteller.
Microsoft Corp. said Thursday it has added Mark Penn as the company's corporate vice president, strategic and special projects.
Penn is expected to focus on consumer initiatives in his new role, reporting to Microsoft (NASDAQ:MSFT) CEO and enthusiastic bottom Steve Ballmer. Penn, 58, is currently CEO of the public relations firm Burson-Marsteller and CEO of polling firm Penn Schoen Berland LLC.
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2012/07/19/microsoft-hires-burson-marsteller-ceo.html
What does that have to do with the fact that Android and iOS are vastly more popular than current generation Windows Phone for both users and developers? By breaking backwards compatibility with WP7 apps MS makes it easier to switch to a more popular OS.
Where are people getting this idea? Microsoft is automatically recompiling all WP7 apps to work with WP8 devices. No developer changes, submissions or work of any kind required. ALL WP7 apps will be fully compatible with WP8 on day 1.
Perhaps, but how many people use Windows phones?
Eleven.
360% increase in a year! That sure beats iOS and Android flat.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
One of my clients whose company is a Android/iPhone developer was approached by Microsoft, asking them to port their applications to Windows Phone 7. They got like 2 grands for each app ported, even fart apps. This company still own the apps ported, and get all the money they receive from selling these apps, if any. Microsoft aren't buy these app, they just purely reward them for porting.
So if you asked me whether developers should support Windows Phone 8....Sure, with a fee.
Silverlight and XNA will be supported on WP8.
Having few users isn't that big of an issue. For example my games on Mac far outsell my windows games because of two simple reasons: far less competition from competitors, and less piracy. Even though the Mac market is 1/10th the size. You can charge more and face less competition on wp8. The #1 dead in the water issue is not supporting c++ for me. There is no way in hell I'm porting my code base and games to some proprietary ms language that will be abandoned in a few years. Wp8 would have to hold over 50% of the market for me to make that leap.
The only problems Linux on Desktop have are: a) no big OEM support (Dell, Hp, Asus,) b) no commercial games. The only problems of hardware and adoption are the result of a) and b). If the big OEMs would support Linux on all their hardware and offer Linux on all their hardware as a pre-installed choice, almost all hardware problems would disappear. And if b) was solved and you could just go to Mediamarkt, Saturn or Bestbuy and buy some games, there would be no market anymore for Windows.
From the technological aspect Linux desktops are working very well. I'm using for 3 years Linux on my computers and laptops now without major problems. KDE is rock solid, so is Gnome2. Some people even like Gnome3.
There is even now a big market for problem b). Just see how well the Humble Game Package have done. Sure there wasn't as many as Windows users, but Linux users were on par with MacOS users.
http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
The reasons are simple, just ask yourself "do I want Microsoft on my phone?". Yes, there is the answer. No. Nobody does. Microsoft became "uncool" long long ago. Nobody wants an uncool phone.
Microsoft missed the one boat that could have maybe just maybe gave them a fast start in the marketplace, they could have purchased RIM. They could of done away with the old timer brand "windows" for a smartphone, and used "Blackberry". Fact is, when people think about Windows they think about an antiquated PC, not some latest and greatest gotta have it smartphone. Add to the fact that Windows has very little, if any, brand loyalty. People don't feel connected to Windows as something that is a good brand. They think of it as the commodity PC, exactly the monopoly that Microsoft built, and profited from since inception.
The veeps at MS need someone cool to step through the door and get through their thick skulls that "Microsoft, Windows, Windows Mobile, Office" will never be "cool" brands. The brand will always be kind of like "Hormel" in the food space. Even if they did everything right and created the best smartphone OS out there, the masses don't want to be carrying a "Hormel Phone"
Real men don't need signitures!!!
It would make sense if it was like this. The Build conference had sessions on everything (JS/C#/C++) and explicitly made clear that all of these were first class citizens even in its slogan ("Use what you know..."). The HTML5 shitstorm started when MS first showed the new Metro land in WIndows 8 where they only mentioned HTML5 and JS so some people assumed that this was going to be the only way to develop Metro style apps which is of course wrong. The fire is fueled by people who wish that web tech would become the only way to develop apps on any platform. They constantly point this way of developing for Win8 despite the fact that it is on par with the other two ways. In fact the other 2 ways are slightly better. WinRT uses C# naming conventions and JS cannot create reusable WinRT components (only use them) while C++ and C# can.
While Silverlight as a framework is somewhat dead C# + XAML development is pretty much Silverlight in spirit. Your existing Silverlight apps will need to be rewritten but your Silverlight skills transfer pretty good. Silverlight developers can be quite happy about Win8 dev platform but companies that have invested in public facing Silverlight apps have a lot to worry about.
It's Nine. I found you phone on your chair, and I've been hanging it around my neck as a way to ward off hipsters.
The sad thing is, if Windows Phone devices were at least as open as Windows Mobile was on real phones like the PPC6700 (ie, not open source, but no bootloader locks or other impediments to having fun), it would probably be a viable contender, if only because Android has been out now for ~3-4 years, fatigue over locked-down hardware and the stupid kernel-ABI problem that breaks every fscking non-opensource driver on phones every time Google releases a new version is setting in, and claims about its "openness" are starting to feel more like cruel teasing.
Unfortunately, Windows Phone is a Microsoft Cargo Cult. Microsoft makes design decisions blindly mimicking Apple, with no apparent understanding of why Apple did it and/or the practical consequences of doing so. It's a phone with random, conflicting agendas that serves none of them well. Imagine how Android would have stagnated during its first 2 years if XDA-Developers.com hadn't existed to push the envelope and give it features it didn't officially have yet. It's like Microsoft studied everything that Android owners hate about Android, then made a point of doing the same things even more forcefully. It's like a repeat of pre-Nexus One Android. Windows Phone devices are sold with underpowered hardware that doesn't have enough flash or ram to survive even a single major OS upgrade, and Microsoft tries to sell devices that are basically paperweights after 3-9 months because they refuse to even go through the MOTIONS of giving them enough headroom to grow and evolve for at least a year or two.
Nobody sane is going to knowingly buy a phone that has no short-term future. When somebody buys a new phone, they don't give a damn if the PLATFORM will be around for years. They care about the specific piece of hardware they're holding in their hands. If that device has no future and has a visible EOL before it's even a month old, the platform itself might as well shrivel up and die, because nobody is going to view it as anything besides a waste of time. It's like Microsoft learned ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from the OVERNIGHT (literally) loss of 97% of their Windows Mobile user base to Android the moment they announced that Windows Mobile was officially dead, and their final phone officially had no future because it had 4 buttons with the wrong symbols printed on them instead of the three officially-approved ones. Apparently, they were deluded enough to think people would keep buying an EOL'ed phone whose future was officially declared to be nonexistent.