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Demonoid Shut By Ukrainian Authorities

hypnosec writes "After a prolonged outage that lasted for nearly a week Demonoid has reportedly been audited and closed down by the Ukrainian law enforcement agency. According to reports the Ukrainian anti-cybercrime police division carried out an investigation of ColoCall – the hosting service provider for Demonoid. Servers were sealed after all the data on the servers was copied. According to ColoCall the servers haven't been seized but, they are not operational any more. The hosting service provider is going to end the agreement with Demonoid. 'Investigators have copied all the information from the Demonoid servers and sealed them.' a manager from ColoCall, wishing to stay anonymous, said."

52 of 178 comments (clear)

  1. You're a GOOD dog!! Yes you are! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    About time that the Ukraine accepted what most governments of the world have already accepted--that the U.S. is your master and you had goddamn well better do whatever the fuck we tell you to!

    Now sit, rollover, and say "We're your bitch!" ....No, SAY IT LOUDER!!

    1. Re:You're a GOOD dog!! Yes you are! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What I want to know was did they have permission from the server owners to copy all that data....

    2. Re:You're a GOOD dog!! Yes you are! by lightknight · · Score: 3, Funny

      Lord and master. We own their land, too.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    3. Re:You're a GOOD dog!! Yes you are! by Jahava · · Score: 2, Insightful

      About time that the Ukraine accepted what most governments of the world have already accepted--that the U.S. is your master and you had goddamn well better do whatever the fuck we tell you to!

      Now sit, rollover, and say "We're your bitch!" ....No, SAY IT LOUDER!!

      This does raise a worthwhile issue: I couldn't find anything in the article that says that the US requested that Demonoid be shut down for this meeting.

      Now, the US Authorities are likely quite happy that it was shut down, but that's a different point. Doing something to please a trade partner isn't necessarily being its "bitch". People, corporations, and countries, the US included, suck up to each other all the time as a sign of respect, deference, and/or good faith and to gain a more favorable status. That sounds like what this is: the Ukraine knew that the US would view the move positively, so they did it as a gift to strengthen their status.

      If the Ukraine knew that Obama loved candied walnuts and consequently brought him a few bags for the meeting, nobody would say that they were his "bitch". Just because this gift is despicable doesn't change that fundamental intention.

    4. Re:You're a GOOD dog!! Yes you are! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because there are so few countries with copyright laws you mean ?

      No, because websites shouldn't be taken down just because there is some infringing material on them. The US is already seizing domain names randomly. That's bad enough. Other countries don't need to go and do similar things.

      Also I've recently visited a very large software company (in America), and the developers were nearly universally in favor of copyright laws and destroying things like demonoid and thepiratebay.

      Not exactly the most unbiased group to ask, eh? Ask me if I deserve a million dollars.

    5. Re:You're a GOOD dog!! Yes you are! by shentino · · Score: 3, Insightful

      At least candied walnuts, unlike serving a public enemy's head on a platter, don't require other people to get squashed.

      Catering to someone's likes is ok, but catering to their hatred in a way that hurts others is not.

    6. Re:You're a GOOD dog!! Yes you are! by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 2

      Think of the walnut trees! They're having their children ripped away from them by this madman's lust for sugar-coated plant fetuses! What a monster!

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    7. Re:You're a GOOD dog!! Yes you are! by xenobyte · · Score: 2

      They probably had a search warrant.

      For what? - I'm willing to bet that there isn't a single bit of illegal material on any demonoid server. It's portal and a tracker, not a bitlocker!

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
  2. Color me surprised by dyingtolive · · Score: 5, Funny

    If your shit's not safe in the Ukraine, it's not safe anywhere.

    --
    Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
    1. Re:Color me surprised by f3rret · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well if the story is anything to go by, then the site was not closed down over copyright claims, it was shutdown over serving malware adds.

      I can see why the Ukranians would shut it down over that.

      Russian doesn't give a damn about US copyright claims.

      --
      Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
    2. Re:Color me surprised by JDG1980 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Russian doesn't give a damn about US copyright claims.

      Ukraine != Russia.

      The former Soviet republics that are now independent states (including Ukraine) tend to be friendlier to the US and EU than Russia itself is, because they rely upon NATO support to maintain effective independence from Russian control.

    3. Re:Color me surprised by interkin3tic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Does the Ukranian government regularly take action against malware? If not, then no, they got shut down for copyright infringement, and "We're shutting down this malware site for your protection, citizen" is a lie on the same level as "We had to shut down the protest because they didn't have a proper permit, not because we don't like their message."

    4. Re:Color me surprised by C0C0C0 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Ukraine != Russia.

      The former Soviet republics that are now independent states (including Ukraine) tend to be friendlier to the US and EU than Russia itself is, because they rely upon NATO support to maintain effective independence from Russian control.

      Ukraine != Poland, either. The entire northern half speaks Russian natively and, despite the best efforts of the Ukrainian Ukrainians, they appear to have the upper hand in parliment right now. I'd say that the jury is still out, and while Ukraine certainly isn't Belarus, they lean a lot more towards Moscow than you suggest.

      --
      You are totally blocking my view of the wall. - Dogbert
    5. Re:Color me surprised by gl4ss · · Score: 5, Interesting

      there's another twist of the story that ". According to one source in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the investigation was timed to coincide with Ukrainian First Deputy Prime Minister Valeriy Khoroshkovsky's visit to the United States, after he released a statement with the US Trade Representative agreeing to "redouble" intellectual property enforcement. While the ColoCall source says Demonoid has backup servers elsewhere, nothing has been restored at this point."

      http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/6/3223253/demonoid-bittorrent-tracker-shut-down-by-ukrainian-police

      so they're doubledowning and redoubling efforts. Maybe they won't bother with finding out who to prosecute and for what, but that's not the point of eastern european lipservice police work really.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    6. Re:Color me surprised by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

      The former Soviet republics that are now independent states (including Ukraine) tend to be friendlier to the US and EU than Russia itself is, because they rely upon NATO support to maintain effective independence from Russian control.

      Not all of them. Baltic states, certainly, and also Georgia. Belarus goes back and forth, but it's not particularly welcome in Europe with its current regime in any case, so it mostly uses the "we'll go to EU" card to force Russia to give some consessions. Most Central Asian states are dictatorships, ranging from mild (Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan) to extreme (Turkmenistan, Tajikistan), and as such aren't really very friendly to either US or EU. Additionally, those of them which border Afghanistan and Pakistan have a very direct threat of Islamic insurgency, and rely on Russian army to maintain their existence if the worst comes to pass.

      Ukraine is actually somewhat schizophrenic in that regard. Its problem is that it's a bitterly divided state: most of eastern regions are historically more russified, and populated predominantly by Russian speakers who either self-identify as Russian or at least aligned with it, while western regions are historically more polonized, and populated predominantly by Ukrainian speakers who self-identify clearly as Ukrainians, and make it a point to stand apart from Russia. The middle of the country, including the capital, is a mish-mash of both. The divide goes beyond the language and self-identification, it also straddles religion (Eastern Orthodox Moscow Patriarchate, vs Kyiv Patriarchate and Greek Catholic). Needless to say, these groups don't much like each other, and have pretty much opposite political goals with no cooperation. So depending on which party is in power at any given moment, foreign policy of Ukraine can pretty much turn around, every five years. And right now, the party in power is pro-Russian one.

    7. Re:Color me surprised by horza · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ukraine is incredibly corrupt. It's the main factor dragging the country down. A young girl can hitch-hike home in the early hours of the morning after clubbing and be safe. There is nearly no aggression I have seen. Hanging out around the Black Sea on a Friday night is safer than being in London. The people are really friendly, and sometimes even charge the real price! However the police patrol the streets and if they see a drunk tourist they will drag him down a side street and kick the crap out of him before taking his watch and wallet. Even simple paperwork at the police station means bribes for everybody you come into contact with. Scams from "law enforcement" officers are rife. If one top guy decides Demonoid is out, don't expect them back. Certainly there will be no appeal. Wonderful country with fantastic people, but don't expect real justice.

      Phillip.

    8. Re:Color me surprised by f3rret · · Score: 2

      Kinda fishy since they apparently got hacked into.

      You'd think that cybercops would be going after the hackers.

      You'd think a lot of things. (This is probably going to sound racist, deal with it) Eastern European politics aren't exactly known for their transparency and willingness to divulge information about the basis for its decision-making.

      Oh and it's often corrupt as hell, so make of that what you will.
      The malware thing was probably just an excuse to go after them for whatever reason they had behind the scenes-

      --
      Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
    9. Re:Color me surprised by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

      The eastern part, and especially Crimea (which is most heavily russified) has been raising that point occasionally, not really very seriously so far but more as a stick to get something else - "if you don't do what we ask for, we're gonna hold a referendum to separate" sort of thing.

      The problem with this approach is that it's not like the split is clear-cut geographically. Much like red/blue in US, either side has a strong minority residing in it from the other; and in both cases, the split would hurt them - in the east because it would then likely seek unification with Russia and ditch Ukrainian as the national language (or, at best, leave it as a regional one), and in the west, because it would make Ukrainian the de facto majority language rather than just de jure national.

      Furthermore, there is more than one boundary there, and they are not perfectly aligned - on one hand you have ethnic self-identification (Russian/Ukrainian), where most but not all (80%) identify as Ukrainians. Then you have the language split, where 50% consider Ukrainian their native language, 30% Russian, and 20% say "both". But when you ask people about "language they speak most daily" rather than "native language", 50% say Russian, and more people are fluent in it than Ukrainian. And then there is political affiliation, which is a thing of its own. So it's all quite messy and complicated - if a guy says he's Ukrainian, says both languages are his "native", but primarily speaks Russian, what should be his alignment? He's screwed no matter what - he wants an independent country where he can usefully speak whatever language he wants, and neither side would provide for that.

      Then of course there's irredentism. This is stronger on the western side, because they focus more on Ukraine as an independent state, and emphatically reject any outside reliance - many, in fact, go further, and reject historical connections with Russia as well, on the extreme nationalist side of things going into racial comparisons like "Ukrainians are Slavs, while Russians are some kind of asian Turko-Ugro-Mongoloid mix". Needless to say, they also see the present border of Ukraine as its natural one, and reject any possibility of separating any regions from it, especially those that are highly likely to rejoin Russia if separated. These guys also claim that those identifying as Russians or speaking Russian are mostly "brainwashed" Ukrainians, and should be restored to their real national identity, forcibly if needed.

      On the other hand, the eastern side being more aligned with Russia, quite a few there see Ukraine not just as a natural partner, but as just a historical and cultural region of the greater Russian state with minor local variations - and so the need for a separate state is suspect by many in the first place. On the extreme side of things, this again goes into ethnic nationalism by claiming that western Ukrainians are "the Polish fifth column" and "not really East Slavs", and that Ukrainian language is "Russian mangled to look more like Polish". From there the obvious next step is to claim that Ukraine, as an Eastern Slavic region, should re-enter a union with Russia and Belarus in the entirety of its historic Kievan Rus territory (which includes most of the West Ukraine, as well), while the "alien elements" in the west should be russified or expelled.

      In other words, it's the same usual bullshit that you see in regions inhabited by two ethnicities who, in reality, form a single contiguous spectrum across the territory because they historically originate from a single root, and have diverged slowly over time due to shifting political rather than constant geographical separation. Ditto with the languages - while normative Russian and Ukrainian differ, the actual dialects in use more gradually transform from southern Russian to eastern Ukrainian, with a mix of both in the middle. The sharp split is mostly in the heads of people - i.e. politics and religion. Coincidentally, a very s

  3. Huge victory for content industry! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Congratulations! It will now take people an additional 3 clicks to find the movie, game or song they want to steal!

    Keep up the good work, guys, people will stop making unlicensed digital copies any day now!

    1. Re:Huge victory for content industry! by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 4, Informative

      When Doctor Who started up again Demonoid torrents were the only way us USAians could see it *at all*. It probably helped Who and many other BBC shows get their American deals.

      There is definitely advantages for content owners here whether they want to admit it or not.

    2. Re:Huge victory for content industry! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you think demonoid was the only place to get Doctor Who, you're hilariously incorrect.

    3. Re:Huge victory for content industry! by neminem · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You mean except for all of the other torrents that existed in other more actually private private trackers? And probably also public trackers.

      I'm not arguing with your main point (New Doctor Who is exactly how I got introduced to the wonderful world of illegally stealing tv shows too), but Demonoid wasn't the only place you could go (I've only ever used it for a few things.)

  4. OTOH, US Law Enforcement could take a lesson... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    OTOH, US Law Enforcement could take a lesson on how to conduct a raid on a datacenter. Go in with a forensic team, isolate, copy, preserve, and leave the shit in place. You don't go in with bolt cutters to cables, wipe out businesses of a dozen other bystanders in the facility, seize stuff for months, or prevent businesses from starting back up.

    1. Re:OTOH, US Law Enforcement could take a lesson... by jamstar7 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But that's not as much fun, nor does it appeal to the 'cowboy' mentality it seems a lot of Feds have been cultivating lately. And the collateral damage? Shouldn'tve put your data on a server those eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil terrorrorrorrist pyrates could use! Now go file the appropriate papwerwork, along with the appropriate fees, and maybe, if you're good kids and eat all your vegetables, they MIGHT let you see your (totally legal) data sometime before the Second Coming of Elvis.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    2. Re:OTOH, US Law Enforcement could take a lesson... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      wipe out businesses of a dozen other bystanders in the facility, seize stuff for months, or prevent businesses from starting back up

      You're assuming that this isn't the entire point of a raid: Send a clear message to all businesses on the planet, "don't come in contact with anything near copyright violation, if nessessary, we'll nuke the site from orbit, if that's the only way to be sure."

  5. Re:Bout time by preaction · · Score: 5, Informative

    Demonoid was a torrent site, not a storage service.

  6. Re:Just like the war on drugs, nobody ever learns. by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As much as I agree that Obama is part of the problem (he's a huge corporatist, allowing banks to get off the hook like he did) he's running against Romney who will do NOTHING except what corporations one. There is no candidate standing that will curb corporate abuse. It's not a party issue.

  7. Shocking! by frovingslosh · · Score: 5, Funny

    There is a Ukrainian law enforcement agency? Who knew?

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    1. Re:Shocking! by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 4, Funny

      There sure is!

      Not only is there a law enforcement agency, but he's a pretty good guy, too.

  8. well.. crap by lemur3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I know its been said before.. but I think itd worth saying again..

    A lot of stuff on demonoid wasnt in print anymore, and there was a big focus on books/other things that arent readily available anymore.

    I think that it brings up a big point that we miss when the whole debate of copyright infringement and pirating the newest movies is brought up in relation to these torrent sites.

    These places are in some ways the last place to easily access important parts of the culture of the world.... Is it so important to protect the newest blockbuster films at the cost of so many people losing access to bits of global creative culture that they cant access legally ?

    1. Re:well.. crap by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      One area that is constantly ignored are the grey-area copyrights (where no one knows who owns the copyright because a copyright holder has gone bankrupt) and the stuff in torrents that is not even in print. Trading that stuff doesn't hurt anyone and, as a matter of fact, often gets them noticed again and brought back into print. Has anyone ever heard a greedhead from the *AAs even acknowledge this?

    2. Re:well.. crap by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You'd be lucky to get them to acknowledge that grey-area copyright and out-of-copyright materials even exist in the first place!

    3. Re:well.. crap by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 2

      A lot of stuff on demonoid wasnt in print anymore, and there was a big focus on books/other things that arent readily available anymore

      The files themselves were not hosted on Demonoid, just the index, comments, and tracker. The "stuff" still exists on everyone's hard drives. I'm sure a lot of it will pop back up on other locations. One lesson to learn from this is a big central site is not so good from a security standpoint, it makes too attractive a target. 100 specialized sites catering to different interests would be more resilient, since it makes the work to take them down 100 times harder.

    4. Re:well.. crap by nabsltd · · Score: 2

      The files themselves were not hosted on Demonoid, just the index, comments, and tracker. The "stuff" still exists on everyone's hard drives. I'm sure a lot of it will pop back up on other locations.

      AFAIK, torrents tracked by the Demonoid tracker were not required to be exclusive to that tracker. At this point, it's pretty much all tracked by other trackers or DHT. The only real issue would be the torrents that are not indexed anywhere else...they will still live on, but you won't be able to search for them.

    5. Re:well.. crap by Shagg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course they won't acknowledge this. The **AAs are not advocates of the artists, they're advocates of the distribution companies. By definition, they couldn't care less about grey-area copyrights because those don't have anything to do with their business.

      --
      Unix is user friendly, it's just selective about who its friends are.
    6. Re:well.. crap by PsychoSlashDot · · Score: 4, Interesting

      One area that is constantly ignored are the grey-area copyrights (where no one knows who owns the copyright because a copyright holder has gone bankrupt) and the stuff in torrents that is not even in print. Trading that stuff doesn't hurt anyone and, as a matter of fact, often gets them noticed again and brought back into print. Has anyone ever heard a greedhead from the *AAs even acknowledge this?

      You don't understand. If you're consuming entertainment material that isn't available legally anymore, you're STEALING from the makers of content that is legally available. How can this be? Simple. You have X hours of entertainment time in your week. If there is no free entertainment available, you will purchase entertainment that is not free. By going back to out-of-print material or by dipping into TV/movies that are no longer available, you are wasting your valuable entertainment dollar-hours that should have been invested in Big Entertainment. For shame.

      --
      "Oh no... he found the .sig setting."
  9. Re:Just like the war on drugs, nobody ever learns. by CanHasDIY · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is no Democrat or Republican candidate standing that will curb corporate abuse.

    FTFY.

    Third parties don't get enough notice in this nation to be included in such a generalization (which, if all third parties were included, would become false anyway).

    A quote I've been trying to spread around: "The only wasted vote, is the one that goes to a Democrat or a Republican."

    Here's hoping it catches on...

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  10. wtf are you talking about by poetmatt · · Score: 4, Informative

    they never had malware ads, but they did turn on the ads after being DDOS'd due to the bandwidth bill. Considering that such a thing happened literally in the last two days I can't see why the Ukranians would shut it down that fast or even have the capability to, for that matter.

  11. Oh it's just the Ukraine by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

    If it were the U.S. I'd be worried they'd come after the stored user data & put people into indefinite detainment (under NDAA 2012).

    --
    My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    1. Re:Oh it's just the Ukraine by TheSpoom · · Score: 4, Interesting
      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
  12. DDOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So, are we comfortable with officially labeling the DDOS from which Demonoid has been suffering these past few days an act of officially-sanctioned vandalism on the part of law enforcement, local or otherwise? Because this is damned coincidental, if not... and should be terrifying to businesses the world over if true.

  13. Re:WTH is Demonoid? by ch0knuti · · Score: 3, Informative
  14. Disadvantages of 3rd world countries by davidwr · · Score: 2

    The country that tolerates you one day can turn against you the next, and you have little or no recourse.

    At least in the United States, if you have enough cash you have access to the courts.*

    *Pissing of the feds in ways that invoke National Security(TM) are, sadly, excluded. But as far as copyright violations go, any American has as much access to the courts as he has money to pay lawyers. This is not true in some other countries.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  15. Re:Just like the war on drugs, nobody ever learns. by DanTheStone · · Score: 2

    Good luck getting any of that reversed when elected politicians eyes are like looney toon cartoon characters with dollar signs rolling and a cash register caching. They won't ever vote to strip themselves of unlimited secret campaign funds and a third party candidate would just take a seat at the trough with the 600+ other pigs.

    Who do you think passed McCain-Feingold before the Supreme Court struck down the provision? It wasn't a referendum.

  16. Please educate me by dave562 · · Score: 2

    /me admits to knowing.

    Why couldn't someone setup a site like Demonoid on Tor, but direct people out to the public internet to actually transfer the torrents? The tracker would exist on the Tor network, but the file sharing would be done on the public network and therefore not saturate the limited bandwidth available via Tor.

    Is there something inherent in bittorrent that requires the tracker and the transfer to take place on the same network? Is it so inherent in the application that it could not be separated into two separate components?

    1. Re:Please educate me by Znork · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Technically you don't even need a tracker anymore as magnet links are enough for distributed hash tables, and magnet links can easily be distributed anywhere, while DHT is a builtin component of the transfer network. TPB already operates that way and would work fine on Tor (as far as I know there could already be several such tor sites, can't say I've checked).

      After that it'll probably go to i2p or turn over to the various f2f networks available. Sharing technology is already several generations ahead. The only question is really how far the pressure will go to push people towards an utterly unmonitorable network.

      Of course, ending up with an evolved completely opaque network has advantages once We The People will be forced to start lining people up against the wall.

  17. In fact, there were plans to join NATO by tlambert · · Score: 4, Interesting

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations

    It's currently on hold because of their current president and parliament, as part of trying to keep Russia from coming unglued at them. However, if their stated intention to join the EU goes through, it's likely they will become a NATO member state (21 of the 27 EU member states are currently members of NATO). Currently, they engage in joint military exercises with NATO.

  18. NNTP by spanky_poppagasket · · Score: 2

    Viva la Usenet!

  19. Re:Just like the war on drugs, nobody ever learns. by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You actually believe that if a third party achieved a significant voice in government, that they wouldn't sell out to corporations just as the two main parties have?

    Not necessarily, and FYI, I never said anything to that effect. Learn to read what's written, instead of inferring what you want to think is there.

    What about you? Do you actually believe it's better to be a good little wage slave who doesn't challenge the status quo, rather than at least attempt to cast off your shackles?

    If not, why bust my balls over pointing out that which has the potential to change the political landscape for the better?

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  20. Re:Just like the war on drugs, nobody ever learns. by Charliemopps · · Score: 2

    If you think Obama, or any member of the democratic party for that matter, is not completely bought and sold to corporate interests, you're a fool. The difference between Republicans and Democrats? There isn't one. Those with a lot of money simply shift where their campaign donations go from election season to election season. Republicans invade countries to fight terrorism, Democrats invade to liberate the oppressed. Does it really matter what the excuse is when the result is the same? If you're voting Democrat or Republican during the next election, YOU are the problem... Not Obama or Romney.

  21. Re:Just like the war on drugs, nobody ever learns. by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 2

    The only way a third party will ever get in office is when the electorate starts to give a flying fuck, and if that ever happens (we can dream, right?), some degree of accountability might actually take place.

    Then again, considering the majority of the stuff that gets blamed/credited on/to the President is actually the legislative branch, I hold very little hope for the U.S. to do anything but continue its downward spiral towards irrelevancy.

    You can do it folks, but you're gonna have to do it 1 congressperson at a time.

    --

    People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
  22. Re:No what? by jamstar7 · · Score: 2

    BTJunkie folded earlier this year, damn it.

    --
    Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.