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Is Sexual Harassment Part of Hacker Culture?
owenferguson writes "Valerie Aurora, Linux kernel file systems expert, takes DEFCON to task for poor sexual harassment policing. A nice followup piece to the recent Readercon fiasco."
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Too soon?
Easily. Yes.
Next question?
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
And I treat everyone the same regardless of sex! And women just say this stuff because they're weak delicate feminine flowers who can't take the way men talk to each other! They're just illogical! And society is biased in favor of women these days anyway!
There, that should cover most of the comments on this story.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
...And then Cultural Marxism got into the last realm of freedom left in the whole f****ng eurosphere. Please, femicommies, egalitarian bigots, beta neutered males and the rest of the bastards: don't hesitate in exercise your righteous faniticism. Oppress your own stock. Demonstrate your superior morality. Indulge in the guilt-tripping tactics of your enemies. Be a proud moron.
TITS or GTFO!
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
What, someone gets their feelings hurt and you lock away the offender? Over some hurt feelings? Really? Fuck you.
The point of the exercise is not to punish anybody, it's to educate them as to what it's like to be treated like a piece of meat.
I know gay guys wouldn't enjoy seeing some geek parade around almost naked — who would? But I hope they'd be helpful enough to offer a few leers and catcalls for purely educational purposes.
The only bullshit is people thinking their own views of what is professional conduct should somehow be the standard of their workplace. You think rape jokes or commenting on peoples' tits are acceptable?
For the record, "off-color" does not imply "racist."
And see, this is why there will never be an equitable resolution to the whole political correctness problem. Because no one said anything about "rape jokes" or "commenting on people's tits," but that was immediately where you ran.
The only bullshit is people thinking their own views of what is professional conduct should somehow be the standard of their workplace.
Unless, of course, that person is a woman and the standard of workplace behavior is already "mellow and laid back" to that sort of joke, of course. THEN, naturally, it's not bullshit.
Anyway, I never said that I think any/all workplaces should have my standard of behavior. What I said was that it was demonstrably false that this "Sexual Harassment" political correctness bullshit is "women just wanting to be treated the same way that men are treated."
And your response actually supports that point.
Better than it would feel knowing that one is a semi-literate Political Correctness goblin with a twitchy knee.
Fuck you. This isn't about hurt feelings, it's about sexual assault; reaching up a woman's skirt and grabbing her crotch is a criminal offense, and deserves prison time.
And there is a well-established procedure that is supposed to be used in response to such actions -- namely, screaming loudly "Get away from me, you pervert!!!" What any woman familiar with social norms would do if any of this actually happened.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
There is an equitable resolution to this problem. We already have it.
That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Douchebags who think this is acceptable either STFU or take it to their private country clubs or deer blinds. If you really feel the need to express your douchebaggery on a public street, then go ahead, just try to avoid feeling butt-hurt when normal people point out that you are a douchebag.
Ah, except, in this case, you're the one being the douchebag, by your own earlier definition, by proclaiming that YOUR standards of behavior should be the standard for the workplace. It's inherently hypocritical.
Also, your assumptions are flawed. I rarely make jokes at work at all, other than snarky comments littered in my code. Your assumption that I'm one of these "douchebags" outs you as having an idealogical position, rather than a pragmatic one, on the issue.
The simple fact of the matter is that there is an inherent lie in claiming to be "just after being treated the same way" when the actual demands are to be treated better, such as in this case.
You can either be "Equal" or you can be a delicate flower that needs special protection. You can't be both.
feminist cuckolding twat. Parades about in revealing attire around sexless geeks because she enjoys the power it gives her, and then she gets upset when they cross the line. Girls like this live to taunt men with their sexuality. They enjoy the power. They enjoy being outraged. They enjoy mouthing off their feminist bullshit.
If you enter a den of starving lions dressed up like a piece of meat don't be surprised when they try to take a bite.
that the author of this article is a feminazi:
From her web page http://valerieaurora.org/ ...
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/
A white male privilege checklist. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if she baits men to create evidence to back her feminist bullshit.
Compared to non-hackers, statistically, YES THEY DO.
Street intelligence vs book intelligence. Hackers have far greater street intelligence.
Social skills includes the ability to socially engineer and manipulate. If ordinary people had such good social skills why are they so easy to socially engineer, trick, brainwash, talk into doing stupid shit, etc? Ordinary people have the least social skills, I'd wager their social skills are so bad that they only know how to seek to conform, fit in and look like everybody else so they never had to develop real social skills which can only be developed when you can't fit in naturally. I'm proposing a hypothesis that ordinary people have ordinary social skills which don't apply to anything besides their 9-5 day job. Fitting into a crowd is not a skill it's a natural tendency which some people are born with more than others.
Lol. Sure. I would say that they have advance skills of affecting society, but the term 'social skills' has a widely accepted connotation for which your use of the word does not apply.
The people in society with the best social skills are the social engineers capable of manipulating the most people. That is the objective measure. Just being "ordinary" or appearing "normal" is not a skill, that's just keeping your head down. A skill requires you to actually use your social "skills" to make things happen rather than merely not stand out.
A better statistic would be to say hackers aren't socially connected, but in my life the most socially skilled people I've ever known were all hackers. They are the most manipulative, slick, adaptable people I know. It's no accident that they can manipulate people out of their passwords, being manipulative is a social skill and one of the most important of all social skills. Having manners is also important but you can get away with being rude if you're manipulative enough to make being rude cool.
No. These are human beings in a physical place in a society that has laws and expectations that will not be ignored by subculture (ignore it all day and you will end up in jail or fired or both). The reality of that subculture's dysfunctional facets does *not* provide 'reason', nor does it justify the complete bullshit you're spewing here. You're using the 'she asked for it' argument,
No I'm not using the she asked for it argument. You're using a strawman to pick apart an argument I never made. I'm making the argument that it benefits those who hate hackers and the hacker community and all it's members male and female to start a gender war among hackers. I'm making the audacious argument that this is divide and conquer. If you can't figure out what is going on then you need to read Sun Tzu and develop more advanced social skills.
You are implying that the victims of harassment had partial responsibility --- no. A naked woman rubbing herself all over the guy next to you is *NOT* required to accept harassment from you of any kind -- to assume you are welcome to the same without her permission is absurd. If you can't control yourself when you see attractive women, you need a psychiatrist.
When did I say any of that. Quote me otherwise you're being delusional arguing with yourself here. No one is defending sexual assault and in none of my posts do I defend sexual assault. I'm defending the community itself. If there are sexual assaults then kick the perps out, they damage the community by making the community look bad and by bringing unnecessary negative attention.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt since you seem to mean well but that post was seriously fucked up on many levels. I kind of want to tear you a new one but I'm going to try and refrain since you seem to at least have your heart in sort of the right place.
First, social engineering skills != social skills. Not even close.
We disagree on the premise. In order for it to be a skill it has to be something which can be learned and it has to be objectively measurable. Conformity can be learned but are you really saying that fitting in with the pack is the most valuable social skill to you? That is really the only social skill missing in the hacker community, they don't want to conform but why should they have to?
Actual social skills that actual healthy adults
Healthy adults is just code word for "normal" adults. Once again why is it important to be normal?
have are a combination of understanding the motivations of others and having respect for them as individuals.
Not every hacker has a complete disrespect for individuals. But all individuals manipulate each other. Watch apes or monkeys interact and see what I mean. If you cannot see that on the fundamental level humans manipulate each other then perhaps you have a lot to learn. Normal people manipulate guilt all the time, that is not seen as disrespectful but I'm sure you've heard the phrase "guilt tripping". Hackers manipulate more than just guilt and have the same goal that everyone else has, hackers want to find ways to get you to do what they want you to do just like everyone in society is trying to do. That is social skills, it's just the methods people use to get you to do what you're supposed to do.
If hackers use these social skills properly hackers can actually make the world safer.
People are not a set of walking stimulus/response sets for someone to manipulate.
Then what are people? Autonomous objects free to do anything they please? Apparently that can't be true if there are laws and governments, advertisements and corporations, churches and cults.
Instead of blaming the hacker for having a deep understanding of certain aspects of reality why don't you work with the hacker to change what you don't like about reality? Because blaming or attacking the hackers is only going to make things worse.
A failure to distinguish between the two is very common among intelligent, socially awkward types. Hacker types *are* socially awkward on average.
It's easy to distinguish between the two if you ask hackers. But if you ask government officials, professors, doctors and the people who actually run society they'd view you more as an object to be controlled. If you have a problem with that then maybe you should rethink capitalism, rethink organized religion and rethink government itself because that is where the culture is coming from and that is what produces the "social awkwardness" that you have a problem with. Hackers adapt to the environment they were in best, develop skills which you do not understand, and probably will never understand unless you actually become objective and study the hacker community without bias or labels or stereotypes of social awkwardness.
The thing is that most people in hacker circles manage to learn actual social skills at some point. Sadly a portion of them never grow out of the mindset that crude, non-consensual manipulation of others for entertainment or gain is somehow indicative that they have learned to interact with other people on a meaningful level.
Why are you blaming it on hacker circles? Your circle doesn't have these immature people? I've never been in any circle which didn't have assholes, jerks and immature people. These people are in every level of society from top to bottom. They are in every class, race and gender, yes there are immature females.
It's not just about safety.. It's also about freedom. Unfortunately, politicians love the safe-tards who they've conditioned to fear 'terrorists' or 'pedophiles' or 'rapists' around every corner. They're reliable voters. The definition of 'rape' has expanded from the original 'unwanted sexual act' definition so much that basically she can define it to apply to whatever behavior she chooses in court...and the law backs her play. People like 'mightymartian' are just the useful idiots who reenforce this stupidity because they've been so-trained by the culture. Perhaps they suffer 'man guilt' and want to 'prove' they're not 'like that' at every opportunity, even if it destroys another's career. Or maybe siding with big-brother tyrant just helps him feel empowered as a wannabe little tyrant in a culture that increasingly disenfranchises individual liberty and self worth.
In terms of the article, this is how 'cultural marxism' gets in on the ground floor of a given organization. The trick is to divide the population by differences and attempt to paint one side as oppressed by the other. If no such real difference exists, manufacture it. The traditional 'hacker ethos' is a strict meritocracy, so here feminists come in with the whole "where's the women, huh? where are they" trollfest. Feminism today is cultural marxism divided by gender.
As a human being, it's widely available. Welcome to life. Deal with it.