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Is Sexual Harassment Part of Hacker Culture?
owenferguson writes "Valerie Aurora, Linux kernel file systems expert, takes DEFCON to task for poor sexual harassment policing. A nice followup piece to the recent Readercon fiasco."
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Too soon?
Easily. Yes.
Next question?
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
I need to see if these women were actually worthy of sexually harassing.
Fuck that guy.
- In Soviet Korea, only old people loose all their bases to Natalie Portman's petrified hot grits overlords.
Is there anything wrong with a sub culture having a different policy/ view? Obviously there are degrees and workplace policies need not apply in every environment.
And I treat everyone the same regardless of sex! And women just say this stuff because they're weak delicate feminine flowers who can't take the way men talk to each other! They're just illogical! And society is biased in favor of women these days anyway!
There, that should cover most of the comments on this story.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
I'm an average geek. I have to say that when I find myself surrounded by really hardcore geeks, I feel put off. It's like they are in a feeding frenzy, looking for a chance to be king of the hill. I am not surprised at all that they'd act in totally horrible ways towards women. Clearly, part of the game there was to do so (to get the hole punched).
I think in the general area of business software, the stereotype of the hardcore geek is mostly gone. People who write business applications are generally pretty mainstream by geek standards. Perhaps such a concentration of extremely tech-focused geeks like at the conference in question is the last place we see this kind of stereotype, and possibly, for that reason they are all the more poorly behaved.
(Aside from needing to look up that link about all articles that end with question mark)
.. its a part of immature people who associate with hacker culture .. hmm .. so maybe that should be a yes?
Sexual harassment is just plain old immature behavior. It isn't a part of Hack Culture
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
Defcon is for lame scenewhores /end of thread
This commentary on this article will undoubtedly be similar to that of a troll festival.
Ooops, *looks above post*, too late.
vos nescitis quicquam, nec cogitatis quia expedit nobis ut unus moriatur homo pro populo et non tota gens pereat.
Not trying to be conspiratorial, but why is it Occupy Wallstreet, Julian Assange, and now "hacker culture" all get accused of sexual assaults? What is the connection? Or are certain people in certain social networks more likely to commit or be accused of sexual assault?
There are politics involved with hacking, hackers upset a lot of people with a lot of power. Hacktivists in particular. Human rights defenders in particular. What could be worse for a hacker or anybody than to be labeled a sex offender? While it is possible that sexual assaults are going on, we also have a correlation with the majority of hackers being young males (there are females but we don't hear much about them), and what we see happening is the landscape for hackers becoming much more militarized, much more political, and much more dangerous.
My advice is that anyone in the hacker community both men and women should take some time to discuss how to protect both women from being sexually assaulted and protect men from being falsely accused as there will a probability of both occurring with increasingly greater frequency.
Sources:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4od4QQVK1o
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18519380
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ngF4V-TOUI
Pretty sure that if this was an all women thing, a few men would be harassed at some point too.
Or the experience of one of my friends, who prefers to remain anonymous. At a recent DEFCON, while leaning over to get her drink at the bar, someone slid his hand up all the way between her legs and grabbed her crotch.
I cannot believe someone could even remotely think that doing something like this would be a good idea. Someone else's body is not just an object. Jesus Christ people, get a fucking clue - this sort of attitude makes for a very poor environment all around.
in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
Real hackers might objectify the female geeks and even lust upon them from afar putting them on a pedestal, but actual human contact just doesn't fit.
One man was apparently out of order, it wasn't a group effort by an entire community. The creep didn't do anything bad enough to get himself arrested and was banned for life for his actions, can't that be an end to it?
Or are we still running with the assumption that all white males are fundamentally evil and everything they do is sexist and/or racist.
FTFA:
Or the experience of one of my friends, who prefers to remain anonymous. At a recent DEFCON, while leaning over to get her drink at the bar, someone slid his hand up all the way between her legs and grabbed her crotch.
I cannot believe someone could even remotely think that doing something like this would be a good idea. Someone else's body is not just an object. Jesus Christ people, get a fucking clue - this sort of attitude makes for a very poor environment all around.
There are many stupid blokes in the world. I'm sure this actually happened. We also have to consider that any time you put a large amount of politically radical individuals in one place, a portion of them will be falsely accused because it's just politically convenient. The next Julian Assange very well could be at Defcon, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if this situation gets exploited by both sides.
We need to educate both men and women about safety. We need technology in place which is gender neutral, which protects both the accused and the accuser. The last thing we want is for something horrible like a sexual assault to happen but being falsely accused of a sexual assault is as horrible as being sexually assaulted. So we have to consider all potential risks and scenarios in security policy.
Sexual harassment is not a part of hacker culture. What is a part of hacker culture, unfortunately, is an unwillingness to set and enforce minimal standards of decent/considerate/polite behavior. This failure to censure this kind of behavior is what gives rise to these incidents.
...And then Cultural Marxism got into the last realm of freedom left in the whole f****ng eurosphere. Please, femicommies, egalitarian bigots, beta neutered males and the rest of the bastards: don't hesitate in exercise your righteous faniticism. Oppress your own stock. Demonstrate your superior morality. Indulge in the guilt-tripping tactics of your enemies. Be a proud moron.
Some think this harassing behavior is simply inappropriate; however, some of what has been described in the connected articles implies potential illegal, tortious behavior. In some cases, unwanted touching was involved.
Knowledge and appreciation of a risk, short of substantial certainty, is not necessary for requisite intent to cause harm. Further, intent to cause harm or offense is not vitiated by good faith mistake. Insane individuals and children as young as infants are capable of forming intent and are thus liable for damages. Intent also is transferable... one can act towards one individual and another can suffer the consequences.
While there are exceptions to circumstance (mingling crowds, emergency egress, etc), unreasonable and offensive behavior can be and often is put to a "reasonable person" test concerning rudeness, insolence, or anger. One does not need to act directly against the person of another, one's behavior can connect through objects closely associate with the person of another. IANAL.
Readercon is to hackers as donut is to washtub?
love is just extroverted narcissism
... and it's not "sexual harassment". It's "sexual assault". I've been seeing considerably more of people being inappropriately aggressive, and not just in hacker cons. It's happening in sci fi cons too, and tech business cons, and plenty of other places. Sales conferences have always been bad, but it's new to see so much of this in geek culture.
I'm pretty sexually liberated (OK, I'm a fucking slut), but that doesn't mean free for all. No matter how much you think they want it, never assume they're interested unless they respond positively to some gentle verbal flirting... And if they don't, they're not interested, so please fuck off.
I know this sounds obvious to many, but I keep seeing rather horrifying examples of geeks completely failing to follow that basic protocol.
Being an asshole is not part of any culture, and endemic sexism (which clearly exists) is not the same as inherent sexism.
Working to end sexual harassment is not an attack on hacker culture. (And nor is it necessary or helpful to attack hacker culture in order to end sexual harassment.)
I have been going to defcon for many years. In recent years my non tech wife has been coming along. My wife is extremely hot and attracts unwanted attention everywhere we go. Its quite the task to keep creepers at bay most of the time. She has repeatedly made it clear that the attendees at defcon and the parties there have been completely respectful and gentlemanly to her. On the other hand, she has been propositioned for "shopping sprees and condo parties" from creepy Vegas men and attempted to be recruited to be a stripper and prostitute on different occasions at the Rio and Riviera pool by Vegas scum. At one point several random hackers came to her defense as she was trying to get away from Vegas scum at the pool. By the time I got out of my track and to the pool random defconers had "solved" the issue in a ways an angry older brother would. These type of problems are what makes my wife wary of defcon and Vegas in general, Vegas scum, not the defcon attendees.
If this is all about some drunk kid asking someone to show your tits, well those kids are everywhere there is alcohol. If someone assaults you, sexually or otherwise, charges should be pressed.
they don't want chicks stealing attention at the after hours man on man bukkake sessions.
Just because you are expert at something, or even think you are the best, does not excuse you form being part of the Human race and it's norms
Treat ALL people with respect, and it will come back 10-fold, and visa-vera (Karma is a Bitch!)
Being part of an elite group does not give you the right to think you are better than anyone else, you ain't!
And if you think you above all this because of what you think you know, look to the History of the gun-slinger in this Country, he was only as good as his next gun-fight, not many real friends and the life-expectancy of a moth
So, while you are out there hacking and puffing out your chest because you are a legend in your own mind
watch out for the flame...yeah, the light''s pretty...but you will get burned
As you can see on the following page, this is not an isolated indecent:
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents
Sadly, this type of behavior is often considered "normal" in geek communities. Other than just talking about the problem, what can people do about it? For starters, make sure that your event has an anti-harassment policy (http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy) and make sure you actually enforce it. I've seen several female friends and colleagues harassed at conferences and events only to be told, "Oh that's normal, just ignore him" or otherwise dismissed. And then we wonder why there are few women attending these events!
that some attendees, hardcore geeks, what not, may have one or numerous personality disorders. ADHD and Asbergers being a few ive encountered frequently at defcon and scale. Is it possible many of these individuals simply dont understand the ramifications of what theyre doing? that this has less become eschewed into the culture and more an uncomfortable affect of its nature?
As a male im disgusted at Genevieves treatment, but as a community how do we not only police this type of deviant behavior but work to educate those who may not understand the full range of human interactions what it is they are doing and why it is wrong?
Good people go to bed earlier.
The article described would fall under at most sexual abuse the undesired touching of a sexual nature. Some of the rest might be rude but not illegal a guy asking a woman to show him her tits. A man the grabbed a woman's hips in a crowded party seems very situation dependent. I drunkard attempting to lick a shoulder is in base taste but when have drunkards been in good taste. The only thing listed that fell outside of bounds would be the inappropriate touching. Is it all juvenile behavioral sure, but none of it was sexual harassment that's specifically for workplaces and education that takes federal money. Seems like your putting a lot of socially inept people together people are going to fail miserably at expressing themselves. But requiring a con the standard of the workplace you saying that at neither at work or in social settings may somebody make an unwelcome sexual advance. Do we need special sexual advance zones with trained technical staff and therapists standing by so that one personal can express a desire commit an act that predates our species? Lets face it go to a crowded pickup bar either gender expects some might even hope to have sexual advances made. The unwanted groping is over the line go talk to the cops not the con same as you would do at a bar, mall, or grocery store. Want a horror story's talk to the booth babes at your average trade show, and that is sexual harassment at the workplace.
No sir I dont like it.
Crotch grab, tit grab, unwanted sexual contact both are considered. At best its a battery charge in most of the US, and most likely its a sexual battery charge in most of the US. Assault (for some weird legal reason) is all the yelling and screaming, threatening gestures etc that go on before or after unwanted physical contact.
This was a felony. The guy who did it, even if he was drunk, in a place he expected such behavior was accepted, etc (and it IS Las Vegas, they adopted a don't ask, don't tell policy as their tourist motto) should be facing prison time for this under US law as well as permanent (oh yeah its forever and ever here in the US) listing on the sexual offenders list.
part of companys that have a good old boys culture.
It's pretty clear that something has changed in geek culture over the last decade. But WHAT? Why is sexual assault a growing problem, to the point where the perpetrators are tolerated instead of ostracized the way they used to be?
Simply because most geeks and nerd are afraid of women.
Your stereotypical geek may be awkward with women and he may even be a misogynist but he's also probably not terribly social and keeps to himself and his group. I don't see anyone who I'd class a proper geek being the sort to grab someone's ass.
However some ruby on rails rockstar douche bag is almost required to be grabbing ass and treating women like shit in between going to the gym and downing red bull. But brogrammers aren't just a pita to women, real programmers hate them too. They're a cancer on our culture.
I can say quite clearly, had there been any behavior of this kind at the H.O.P.E. conference, we would have been all over the perpetrator in a flash. Now then, if something happened, and the staff at the conference was not brought into the loop, there is not much that we could do. Contrary to popular belief, the staff does not see everything. Hell, we were more than busy enough with the stuff we could see.
If you are a victim of this type of behavior, talk to the conference staff. They want to make sure this type of behavior does not occur, maybe even more than you do.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
Now get back to the kitchen, woman!
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
only if it's forbidden :)
As Burroughs put it: Any soul is worth saving, at least to a priest, but not every soul is worth buying.
It's part of fraternity culture. Dump the brogrammers and that attitude goes away. Maybe there are more of those types at conferences where people talk about their hat color. That's only one type of hacking.
I've been to many, many conferences over the years, and the worst experiences I've ever had have been at those gatherings with many Web 2.0 and Ruby advocates.
Anyone who has been to a conference where Web 2.0 programming and/or Ruby are among the main topics will know what I mean. There's a certain prominent subculture within these communities that is truly obnoxious and irritating. They bring together vanity, ego and ignorance in a way that I really haven't seen happen in other technically-oriented communities.
They can often be identified by the fedora hats that many of them wear, along with the various Apple devices they all seem to possess. Many of them also like to wear t-shirts with smart-ass remarks on them, even at more formal events where some small amount of tact and business-casual attire is the norm. Everything about their manner of dress is unprofessional.
The ego and ignorance build upon one another, as far as I can tell. Many of these people claim to be experts, and in some cases even "rockstars" and "coding ninjas". On further inspection, however, we find that they usually have no formal software development or computer science education of any sort. Even their professional experience is often limited to pretty minor web development. Yet given their lack of education and experience, they still feel the need to very loudly express their opinions in public, perhaps because they don't know how much they truly don't know. Rather than being at a conference to learn or to share knowledge, they're usually there just to stroke their own egos by vocally expressing their "expertise" anywhere and everywhere.
I've also found their attitude towards women to be unusual, at best. At worst, it's outright offensive. Basically all of the other people I've ever worked with in various technical fields over the years have put ability and experience far, far above gender in terms of importance. In many cases, gender is treated as completely irrelevant, and is often ignored. Yet time and time again I've heard comments, even by the speakers during public presentations with hundreds of people in the audience, from these Rubyists and Web 2.0ers that are crude and insulting to women. While everyone else in the industry is focused on working together to achieve great things, these people have some strange fixation with insulting females whenever possible.
To be honest, I really don't understand them at all. They're so unlike the rest of the technical community in so many ways, I often wonder why they're tolerated by the greater community. I've had to deal with individuals here and there who are socially awkward, but in most other fields they're few and far between. But within the web development community, however, the Rubyist subculture has embraced almost every negative trait possible, and in some strange way sees these awful traits as acceptable, if not something to celebrate. They really are a strange crowd.
Isn't part of the hacker ethos that the code rules? Who cares the age, sex, color, national origin, or creed of the writer? Do any of these factors make for better or worse code? If not, then differentiators based on those factors have no place in the hacker culture.
Any type of harassment needs to be dealt with rapidly, firmly, and appropriately. At the hacker cons I've attended, I've been fortunate to attend sessions with female presenters. I've also had the opportunity to interact with female attendees and found them to be logical, intelligent, and well spoken. I go to such cons to learn, network, and have some fun. Playing grabass just isn't on the menu. Such things are the province of small minds with no social skills. I'm all for harassers getting a swift kick - or several. I have a feeling though that the goons wouldn't be enamored with that idea.
I'm old enough to have been in the military before, during, and after the 1991 Tailhook incident. Hopefully the pendulum won't swing so far in the other direction that personnel are tossed and/or banned based on unsubstantiated allegations. There are very real incidents that need to be dealt with firmly. There are also invented incidents that should result in sanctions against the person making the false allegations.
-ZPO
For reasons that should be obvious, lots of social misfits wind up in computer security. Among the social misfits who wind up in computer security are people who fail to understand social boundaries. Those people harm others by their actions. Those harmful people have a disproportionately high representation in computer security populations.
It does not follow that most hackers fail to understand appropriate social boundaries or that the average hacker has a below-average understanding of social boundaries. In fact, all of the hackers I know (and I know a lot) are quite sensitive about violating the boundaries of others. In fact, being oversensitive is also disproportionately represented in computer security circles.
Beware of those who present a number of extreme individuals in a culture as a measure of the average mental makeup of the culture. It is bad math, and it is prejudice.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
What kind of BS is this? Is this payed advertising from the FBI? Hackers = molester? Is sexual harassment part of government culture too? Next time select a better victim for libelous delusions, like astronauts or something. Certainly neither jock or tavern-slithering tough-guy has ever set a foul eye upon an innocent tart? Nope, only a putrid, pasty, libidinous hacker would do that. Yep, they MUST gain unauthorized access to your women. That's what it's all about. So hurry and unplug them before they've all been dragged down into the damp proverbial basement and irreparably ravaged by someone as terrible as Gary McKinnon! I can see it now:
"Put on the alien mask now!"
"....wince"
Forward! -- Emperor Norton, 2012
Maybe I missed the /. thread on the ReaderCon fiasco, but here's the original complaint
http://glvalentine.livejournal.com/340623.html
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
The major problem with Valerie's article is that she creates a strawman argument ("all you men say that if women don't feel comfortable, they shouldn't go") which she then leaps off of to claim that women are not made welcome and thus are being denied employment opportunities available at said conference. In prior discussions here on Slashdot, I have not seen a single commenter say anything similar to that. It is at best an extremist viewpoint. Most of the voices in this and prior discussions have been one of collective disapproval and support for women feeling comfortable at conferences.
The other problem is that Valerie and her cohorts think female-on-male violence is funny:
"The cards are a hilarious way to raise awareness of the problem of brutal sexual harassment at DEFCON and similar conferences."
http://singlevoice.net/redyellow-card-project/
Text from the red card: "You should be happy you got this card and not a punch in the face."
This is a perfect example of how culturally it has become completely acceptable for women to beat men in public or media; people stare, freak out, and intervene when a guy gets aggressive with a woman....but she can use his hair to thrash his head around, punch him repeatedly, etc - and nobody says a word or gives it a second glance. In movies, a woman getting hit is the ultimate bad-guy act...but a man getting hit? That's comedy! Funny! Let's not forget that the man is always portrayed in media as being a lecherous slimebag, and thus "deserves" this treatment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFAd4YdQks
Please help metamoderate.
Let's see....
Con is catering to those who feel they are hip, cool, edgy, and underground, many of whom feel they are outside the law. Check.
Con held in Las Vegas, also known as Sin City, "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas", America's ultimate party town. Check.
Con-goers who have poor social skills, feel elite, hyper-competitive, and desperately want to appear manly and impressive. Check.
Its a recipe for disaster as bad as if they held it in the middle of a frat party. There is no mystery to any of it. They already have big corporations, the NSA and other agencies and such attending the con looking for talent among a group of people who exist for a large part outside normal society. This is condoning their behavior. ALL of it. And likely this conference will become another dead-boring con and die out in a couple of years if they change it. Its a very select and special breeding ground for just the types of persons that Security organizations are looking for. That doesn't hold up to these other standards. These women decided to play in a different culture. And that is biting them in the ass now. Cause its a group of naturally anti-authoritarian males that make up said culture and trying to tell them no, tell them they have to do things exactly thus and so when they already know they get around all that with either money or power, just isn't gonna fly.
They're the new jocks. They feel they can get away with anything. Go to jail for grabbing some titty at a con? Okay but the NSA wants me so I'll just chill until they get me out.
Realistic outlook? No. But its as likely an explanation as any, and better than most I would bet.
Hackers are hackers
We do not care about political correctness, or the opposite of it
We do not care if you like us or hate us
We do what we do, we hack what we hack, because we like it, because we can do it, and because we do not give a flying fuck of what you think of us
And to those political correctness asshat - go fuck yourself, and leave us alone !!
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
While I do not know her personally, her writing points to fuzzy thinking (For example her take on compare by hash is a complete fail and indicates some fundamental lack of understanding the subject matter, while she asserts that she does understand it. I can only speculate that there is some fundamental insecurity at work here and some mental blocks.) and a rather large chip on her shoulder.
I might be wrong on the second count (but I doubt it), but not the first one.
That said, while I only know the more academic side of hacker culture, I have yet to find any instance sexual harassment. Of course some amount of banter is normal in a relaxed environment. It only becomes harassment if somebody told to back of does not. Anybody can reasonably be expected to have that much self-defense capabilities.
I know that there is a school of though that says nothing sexual may even be said in the presence of a woman for risking to harass her. That is a fail as well, as it depicts women as frail creatures unable to fend for themselves or even make their views heard. If I were a woman, this view would insult me greatly.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
This would be battery, assault does not involve making physical contact.
First, I must preface I am not saying these things do not happen and I will not take away from anyone's experience as these situations are inexcusable and horrific, but I do want to chime in and say they do not happen to ALL women.
I have been attending tech conferences for going on 6 years now. This year was my 2nd BlackHat, 3rd Defcon, I also speak at average 4-5 conferences in an associated industry each year. While I won't say I have never experienced an idiot or two (but wouldn't you in any situation) OVERALL the men have been supportive, giving, generous and career boosting. They are also very protective over me and if anyone treated me this way I know the person would find himself in a very bad way very quickly. That being said.
I worry when I see posts like this because though I am 1000% positive there are a few bad apples in a conference the size of Defcon (18k) I don't believe wholesale that there are a plethora of bad aggressive idiot men attending.
Most of the men I meet are respectful and helpful and by othering the men you separate women further and create and atmosphere where men are afraid to speak or befriend as they might offend.
So again, I do not wish to in any way detract or minimize the horrendous behavior that was mentioned here. I just caution that generalization can cause issues that do not exist, create a negative atmosphere where women are further separated from the goals they seek to achieve. We work in a predominantly male industry.
Men are not the enemy and I would not be where I am without the ones I know help and guidance. So just remember in a barrel of apples there are always some worm infested ones among the many bright and shiny.
Using illegality as a standard is stupid if your goal is to protect women from harassment. (If your goal is to allow creepers to get away with this kind of crap, it might serve as a good standard.)
Some of the rest might be rude but not illegal a guy asking a woman to show him her tits.
Sexual harassment,
A man the grabbed a woman's hips in a crowded party seems very situation dependent.
Definitely sexual harassment, possibly sexual assault.
I drunkard attempting to lick a shoulder is in base taste but when have drunkards been in good taste.
Sexual assault.
The only thing listed that fell outside of bounds would be the inappropriate touching.
Sexual assault.
Is it all juvenile behavioral sure, but none of it was sexual harassment that's specifically for workplaces and education that takes federal money.
It may not be legally actionable, but it's sure as shit sexual harassment.
Seems like your putting a lot of socially inept people together people are going to fail miserably at expressing themselves. But requiring a con the standard of the workplace you saying that at neither at work or in social settings may somebody make an unwelcome sexual advance. Do we need special sexual advance zones with trained technical staff and therapists standing by so that one personal can express a desire commit an act that predates our species? Lets face it go to a crowded pickup bar either gender expects some might even hope to have sexual advances made. The unwanted groping is over the line go talk to the cops not the con same as you would do at a bar, mall, or grocery store. Want a horror story's talk to the booth babes at your average trade show, and that is sexual harassment at the workplace.
Why should a woman who wants to go to a hacker convention expect to be subjected to sexual advances? Or, more to the point, why would a man at a hacker convention feel entitled to make sexual advances? After the fact, why do you feel the need to defend men who make sexual advances at a computer hacker convention?
Only the creepiest people used to go to conventions, you guys should have thought of that before it became the "cool" thing to do.
DEFCON is a conference specifically about violating other people's privacy and space for fun and pleaseure. This is not a conference about protecting people, it's a conference about violating them. One may as well complain about them using password snifers on the wireless network, violating people is what the conference is *for*.
Short Answer: No.
Long Answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
I've been saying this for the last 20 years and being shouted down ... so let's go for it again...
Why so much emphasis on sexual harassment, and so little on racial and physical discrimination?
I am really disappointed with the response I'm seeing here.
While some would probably call me an uber-hacker, and yes, I'm awkward around women, I wouldn't dare to disrespect a woman like I'm seeing here. I know a number of smart (and attractive) women that work in my field, and they deserve the same respect that my bros get. Personally, I like having smart, attractive, and entertaining women around. I don't know why so many of you men insist on acting like little boys.
If you read Genevieve Valentine's blog post about her harasser
http://genevievevalentine.com/2012/07/readercon-the-bad-and-the-ugly
he simply sounds like a persistent man. Have we come so far that persistence is considered evil?
Valerie Aurora needs to stop writing boring blogs and make me a sandwich.
There were a lot of great hackers coming up with stuff 20 or 30 years ago, but it seems like it's fallen to shit. And it's not just because of Hollywood, it just didn't survive the transition from an exclusive club to the huge amorphous "community" it is now.
Every time I hear about hackers, I find it's a journalist talking about felons, or some smart kid who learned how to program his microwave, or some guys who are marginally skilled in computers and seriously in need of therapy. Or just yet another fucking poser.
And they're worse in numbers, like these security conferences. These conferences are basically all about security theater, so you're starting off with a bunch of losers to begin with. Add in all the hacker wannabes, and the fact that freaks go there to grope women doesn't seem particularly surprising.
The real communities are professional organizations that are full of people who actually make things, and, frankly, it's pretty stupid to constantly worship hackers who don't make anything.
This commentary on this article will undoubtedly be similar to that of a troll festival. Ooops, *looks above post*, too late.
Is Sexual Harassment Part of Hacker Culture?
Is racism part of Southern US Culture?
Luckily, I wrote all this all below your post, so I'm clearly not trolling.
Big apple, new Yorik, undig it, something's unrotting in Edenmark.
Hacker culture is no more misogynistic and rife with sexual harassment than any other industry. The difference is the social skills of many in the hacker culture create a higher profile for the community. Some guy with say, an MBA in finance, is more likely to target an attack to a coworker who isn't going to say anything or might even be flattered by the immaturity, due to their greater breadth of social experience. The hacker is going to spam their childish desires and opinions to anyone in earshot and end up offending someone.
It's similar to the anecdotal, yet frequently true, difference between sexual harassment and flirting: Does the girl find you attractive?
Also, hacker culture is more heavily in favor of libertarian standards of free speech. This means many expect the right to say what they want without consequence.
If anything the largest part of the problem stems from women stereotyping technologically proficient males. Techies are lumped together with construction workers, plumbers, and Don Draper.
WHAT?
I think the slashdot tagline includes "stuff that matters" hence the reason it wasn't posted.
What will that question get for you? How about asking, "Will you take a stand with me against sexual harassment in the hacker sub-culture?"
We live in a broader culture where that kind of harassment and assault is illegal. The way the sub-culture is doesn't matter. Want to make a difference? Don't act that way or tolerate those who do.
If it's illegal go to the cops file a report. Sexual harassment is a specific crime that none of this would seem to fall under (yes corner cases of people working there etc). My point is if you extend sexual harassment to be illegal everywhere you can effectively never attempt to have sexual congress. Holding public places up to the standard of the workplace is unworkable. Requiring that you somehow get approval to make sexual advances without making a sexual advance is unworkable as the question itself is a sexual advance. Why would a person go to a social gathering and expect to be subjected to sexual advances? It's an entitlement to make sexual advances? People have sex it happens rather often they meet at these social gatherings.
I'm not attempting to excuse the groping that's a pretty clear case of somebody going over the line. I am saying that as mammals you do have to expect that in social situations people will make advances of a sexual nature, the instinct to breed is pretty well ingrained. Sexual harassment is an attempt to move these natural behaviors out of the workplace and away from teachers and students, in an attempt to not let a person in power use it to there advantage or have a person use sex to gain it. It is not some code of conduct that should be required everywhere. I'm not offended when at a party or bar when somebody comes up to me and flirts the tackle hug from a woman I barely know. If your that thin skinned that any form of sexual advance is scary to you I would suggest seeking help and staying out of polite society until you have overcome this phobia but in any event do not attempt to bend the world to your phobia. As long as people are staying within the law it should not be a cons or any other social gatherings responsibility to enforce a higher standard of decorum.
I make no attempt to defend the groper, male female or whatever gender they choose to align themselves with. I do defend the right of people to make sexual advances in social situations. If we were to remove it, we remove a major avenue of people to connect with each other. Lest we all be forced to sterile internet dating sites where your matched like lab rats, or forced to revert to primary school tactics of asking jim to ask sue if tina likes you.
No sir I dont like it.
There are thousands of people reading this article and a few hundred commenting on it, saying "Oh that's so terrible! I would never do anything like that. I always respect women and treat them as equals."
And I would bet you my engineer's salary that a good number of those people disrespect women on a regular basis without thinking anything of it.
My point here is that infractions of a greater magnitude do not excuse smaller misdeeds. I see a whole lot of people who are quick to shout "NO!" in response to the headline. Don't try to hide the elephant in the room - mistreatment of women has long been associated with "geek" culture and it's not just a fucking coincidence. Sure, it may not be the same brand of mistreatment that Fraternity culture fosters and openly encourages, but it's mistreatment all the same. Someone didn't just wake up one day and say "Hey, I think I'll start associating geeks with sexual harassment." Little jokes and gestures that YOU think are funny in your own little geeky social circles can be very insulting and demeaning elsewhere. I'm not saying you can't be that kind of person, but keep it to yourself, or to people who you know are okay with it.
Expression of one's sexual desires (which is not the same as the desire to "breed") is not ingrained biologically but socially. People make passes in situations where they think it's okay, and in situations where they think other people think it's okay. On the face of it, there's no reason why a computer hacker convention would be one of those places, and the women in question clearly didn't think they would be subjected to that kind of crap. (Referring to the reasonable desire to not constantly be made to feel like a sexual object as a "phobia" is a big red flag, by the way.)
Why is your desire to make a pass at someone at a computer hacker convention more important than someone else's desire not to be subjected to sexual advances at a computer hacker convention? And given that this is a conflict, why shouldn't the convention organizer be able to say, "In the interest of all people attending this computer hacker convention being able to feel comfortable, please don't ask anyone to show their tits?"
If the dates weren't different this could be a description of certain previous incidents of 'harrasment' from other conventions. You attend a convention of sexually immature males and get hit on - well DOH. A quick perusal of the Readercon incident indicates that the fella involved one Rene Walling only wanted to apologize. Of course this was taken as a sign of further harrasment. From reading about previous incidents such as this you get the impression that some people prime function attending conventions is to seek out such 'harrasment'. It isn't the function of DEFCON to police peoples behavour. I would imagine that DEFCON would be better off without support from some people, either grow a thicker skin or grow up.
AccountKiller
Certainly. Porn is the leading driver of technology.
The problem is the majority of women today are complete cowards, in that they want to maintain plausible deniability throughout their interaction with men, even for men they're very interested in. They never make unambiguous moves, they expect men to come out and make the advances, and the woman might just casually accept while maintaining the veil of plausible deniability (no I didn't really like him but I was thirsty for a drink and I really was trying to get that other guy to come etc etc). This sort of behavior causes men to evolve the sort of attitude that copes with this situation, where ambiguous and evasive answers need to be interpreted in a different way that they might in a normal discussion. I.e. become the assholes who get the nookie. When you hear someone talking about "knowing how to get laid", that is what they're talking about. Not considering the woman your equal, but essentially a target with known behavior quirks that must be exploited in a certain way.
Not that this excuses the guy in TFA. That's assault pure and simple.
sexual desperation is part of hacker culture... :-)
Which leads inevitably to sexual harassment...
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
The article is a slander attempt to co-op the conference. Simple as that.
The story right behind this one is this: Color Printing Reaches Its Ultimate Resolution.
How did they test it? By printing the "Lena" image.
As a proof of principle, researchers printed a 50×50-micrometre version of the 'Lena' test image, a richly coloured portrait of a woman that is commonly used as a printing standard
So who's Lena? She's a playboy pinup girl. (NSFW).
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
"Valerie Aurora"...
Really? What the fuck is wrong with your real name? Attention whore anyone? "Genevieve Valentine" Really? Anyone who changes their name to one similar to a porn star, then claims sexual harassment is... to put it bluntly, a whore. Bought and paid for. It may be lawyers paying the bill but they are still whores.
How do we know what she said??
What?? If your complete sentence meant, how do we know what she said actually happens - you'd find out pretty quick with some undercover female officers just dressed like other conference goers.
Do you really think a convention of hackers are going to trust/feel safe in a scenario with undercover cops to handle this?
Everyone knows that all the hacker conferences have some rather high percentage of people who are NSA, CIA, FBI, KGB, etc. etc. Just why is throwing one simple cop into the mix going to bother anyone?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Totally agree with the move-out-of-Las-Vegas sentiment. The United States has no shortage of wonderful, interesting cities: San Francisco, New York, Chicago, Seattle... probably many more, but I've been to those four so I know about them.
So why the heck do so many organizations hold conferences in Las Vegas, a hick town in the middle of the desert with an unbearable climate, filled with pasty-faced overweight losers listlessly playing slot machines to pass the time, containing totally cheesy over-the-top-stupid theme hotels where you can buy overpriced food that all tastes like cardboard?
I mean seriously? What's the attraction?
That's a terrible idea. What about all the women that have to live in Las Vegas?
Yes, that in unfortunate.
But the thing is, you cannot change the nature of Vegas. Vegas is pushing sexual messages all the time, 24/7 into every nook and cranny.
Vegas even tried to change itself a while back, going with a family friendly vibe - but it just could not stick, Vegas is too much about sex.
So the unfortunate result is that it probably does increase inappropriate behavior in men that go there, especially when alcohol is added.
The only thing that can probably be done is a catch-22 - add more women. When there are enough women around, they are helping each other out and you can't have guys really bothering women nearly as easily.
That, or a LOT more muscle at vegas hacker parties told specifically to look for people bothering the women. There are lots of bouncers in Vegas very used to keeping drunk men at arms length from women.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
we expect the social rejects that think assaulting women is acceptable to not show up. I really doubt they'd be missed.
"Those are bad. They tend to end up in jail or a mental institution... for good reason."
Us clever sociopaths manage to avoid prison. You generally only find out about the sloppy ones.
Some of us sociopaths end up becoming CEOs.
If people like you become too paranoid to attend, then fewer woman would be attacked. Sounds like a win/ win for people who actually matter.
one article down... the textbook standard for image processing is a Playboy centerfold. You can't make this shit up... time to clean up our act guys.
As someone with possibly negative social skills, I'd have to say I don't condone at all the actions described, in fact I find them horrible, but I can't say as how I don't understand why people do that. I inadvertedly tongue-lashed a girl who'd done quite a good volunteer job at one of like conferences because, at the time I wasn't sober and I was in retrospect quite distraught about some social situation with another girl, one I'd again horribly failed, though without crossing the harrassment line. But I can imagine other nerds and geeks crossing that line, sure. Poor social skills, the perennial hacker trait.
And yeah, you don't get through to such people with subtlety. You have to be quite blunt and explicit, though you usually needn't be public about it (at first), and if you can do it while sticking to a clear distinction between being and behaving you might get a better response to boot. I'm leaving as an exercise why that would be especially so with really intelligent but socially inept males.
Just like it's a part of the culture of virtually every other almost-entirely-male social group. It's not because of "poor social skills", it's just because their subculture evolved as a boys-club.
Why should a woman who wants to go to a hacker convention expect to be subjected to sexual advances? Or, more to the point, why would a man at a hacker convention feel entitled to make sexual advances? After the fact, why do you feel the need to defend men who make sexual advances at a computer hacker convention?
Seriously? Because in our society it is traditional for men to make the advances. If men didn't make the advances, our species wouldn't continue. Essentially anywhere a woman or a man goes, there will be the possibility of sexual advances, even if such an advance is simple verbal flirtation. Why would it not be expected that a women who willingly goes somewhere there is a high concentration of men in a non-formal (social) environment will be hit on?
ERROR: SIG NOT FOUND (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?:
is a strip club for geeks. Or maybe organizers can do something about getting some haxxxor action?
Is it the form of the advance or the fact of it that you're upset with? Because I think "In the interest of all people attending this computer hacker convention being able to feel comfortable, please don't ask anyone if they'd like to hook up." wouldn't go over so well for either sex.
The Readercon link just emits a statement of punishment. We don't know what happened, so we'll behave the same as we have been.
is a part of hacker culture.
Pics or it didn't happen.
and make me a sandwich. Ham and provolone on wheat.
NOW, woman!
Find me a reasonable person, I dare you!
Just be glad that the law reads "reasonable person" and not "average person".
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
No, harassment is. Sexual or otherwise. Why is it that feminists always turn something that's applied equally to both sides into a gender issue?
"You're not against "freedom", are you?"
Their definition of freedom is one way.
Exploitation for them is OK. Fighting back against their exploitation is "against freedom".
I suggest you look into a Chinese hacker circle rather than a white man one like DEFCON. The orientals gives women much more respect due to their traditional buddhist/taoist values.
New Economic Perspectives
http://valerieaurora.org/
Dress down a bit. Most of these guys don't get much action, and to have an attractive girl in potentially suggestive attire parading about is equivalent to sexual taunting.
Today's modern woman walk around with 90% of their tits hanging out and then have the nerve to get upset when men look. Let's be frank. Women enjoy it when men look otherwise they wouldn't dress the way they do. They enjoy the power that comes from knowing they are desired. They basically enjoy showing men what they can't have. If they don't like the harassment there is a simple solution: dress like a nun when you attend DEFCON. There, problem solved. Now you don't have to re-engineer male human nature.
feminist cuckolding twat. Parades about in revealing attire around sexless geeks because she enjoys the power it gives her, and then she gets upset when they cross the line. Girls like this live to taunt men with their sexuality. They enjoy the power. They enjoy being outraged. They enjoy mouthing off their feminist bullshit.
but is posting intentionally provocative article titles a part of Slashdot culture?
you have a different definition of violence if giving someone a red piece of paper with writing on it qualifies
"Is Sexual Harassment Part of Hacker Culture?"
Nope.
Are all Slashdot pop quizzes this easy?
Don't take it so hard.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
If you enter a den of starving lions dressed up like a piece of meat don't be surprised when they try to take a bite.
that the author of this article is a feminazi:
From her web page http://valerieaurora.org/ ...
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/
A white male privilege checklist. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if she baits men to create evidence to back her feminist bullshit.
The very idea of "sexual harassment policing" is offensive. Quick, someone call Sexual Harrassment Panda.
I attended this year with two female friends. One of them had some young kid try to pick her up in the hardware hacking area - he was smooth and polite about it. The other had no such proposals. Both of them would have smacked anyone trying some of the shit in that article without hesitation.
Neither of them were groped, neither of them had anything lewd said to them. I've gone to every DEFCON for about 8+ years often with female friends along and none have ever told me about things like this. Yeah, there have been strippers at some of the parties, yes folks have gotten drunk and made proposals, but nothing like what that article claims - sorry.
From the sounds of it much of this is happening at parties and not during the con itself. If that's so then it's conduct at parties full of drunken guys that's an issue not DEFCON. Priest and other Goons would toss someone out caught grabbing a woman like that, probably after beating them, and I'd applaud....
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
Harassment is asking someone out after they have told you in no uncertain terms that they don't want to date you.
The things described here are sexual assault and rape.
Most geeks are complete filth. They're loaded with personaity disorders, their minds are in ruins from what ever ideological echo chamber they hang out in, they think using a command line make them worthy of worship, and that getting ObscureLinuxDistro to print in two out of the seven colors on their printer makes them a global class expert on all fields of human knowledge...
They a absolute filth, and some of the most vile scumbags in the world today. I don't know a person who can stand to be around the blithering little trolls unless they have to.
Here's her webpage:
http://valerieaurora.org/
with links to the white male privilege checklist:
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/
And here is here in her scantily clad attire at DEFCON designed to bait desperate sexless men into acts to further her feminist bullshit:
https://www.defcon.org/images/graphics/PICTURES/DAN-2.JPG
She's an ideological provocateur whose only relevance comes from her nutty feminist nonsense . You can read more her BS at her blog:
http://blog.valerieaurora.org/
I replied to this blog post, and personally interviewed KC, and discussed that in my first blog post on the subject. Here they are: Aug 3- http://datadevastation.com/blog/sexual-harassment-defcon-cards-and-friends/ - includes pics of the actual cards. Aug 13 - http://datadevastation.com/blog/sexual-harassment-redux-con-harassment-policies/
How about making a clear statement on your website and in a pamphlet handed to all attendees stating your position on this, and throw out anyone who is harassing women. Since the only hope of procreation of most attendees is that the number of women attendees increase.
Why are there so few women in IT? Not because we can't handle the job, but because we can't handle the social retards.
I'm sorry if I'm the only titted person that you speak to besides your mom but that's YOUR problem, not mine, okay? Get the fuck away from my desk.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt since you seem to mean well but that post was seriously fucked up on many levels. I kind of want to tear you a new one but I'm going to try and refrain since you seem to at least have your heart in sort of the right place.
First, social engineering skills != social skills. Not even close.
We disagree on the premise. In order for it to be a skill it has to be something which can be learned and it has to be objectively measurable. Conformity can be learned but are you really saying that fitting in with the pack is the most valuable social skill to you? That is really the only social skill missing in the hacker community, they don't want to conform but why should they have to?
Actual social skills that actual healthy adults
Healthy adults is just code word for "normal" adults. Once again why is it important to be normal?
have are a combination of understanding the motivations of others and having respect for them as individuals.
Not every hacker has a complete disrespect for individuals. But all individuals manipulate each other. Watch apes or monkeys interact and see what I mean. If you cannot see that on the fundamental level humans manipulate each other then perhaps you have a lot to learn. Normal people manipulate guilt all the time, that is not seen as disrespectful but I'm sure you've heard the phrase "guilt tripping". Hackers manipulate more than just guilt and have the same goal that everyone else has, hackers want to find ways to get you to do what they want you to do just like everyone in society is trying to do. That is social skills, it's just the methods people use to get you to do what you're supposed to do.
If hackers use these social skills properly hackers can actually make the world safer.
People are not a set of walking stimulus/response sets for someone to manipulate.
Then what are people? Autonomous objects free to do anything they please? Apparently that can't be true if there are laws and governments, advertisements and corporations, churches and cults.
Instead of blaming the hacker for having a deep understanding of certain aspects of reality why don't you work with the hacker to change what you don't like about reality? Because blaming or attacking the hackers is only going to make things worse.
A failure to distinguish between the two is very common among intelligent, socially awkward types. Hacker types *are* socially awkward on average.
It's easy to distinguish between the two if you ask hackers. But if you ask government officials, professors, doctors and the people who actually run society they'd view you more as an object to be controlled. If you have a problem with that then maybe you should rethink capitalism, rethink organized religion and rethink government itself because that is where the culture is coming from and that is what produces the "social awkwardness" that you have a problem with. Hackers adapt to the environment they were in best, develop skills which you do not understand, and probably will never understand unless you actually become objective and study the hacker community without bias or labels or stereotypes of social awkwardness.
The thing is that most people in hacker circles manage to learn actual social skills at some point. Sadly a portion of them never grow out of the mindset that crude, non-consensual manipulation of others for entertainment or gain is somehow indicative that they have learned to interact with other people on a meaningful level.
Why are you blaming it on hacker circles? Your circle doesn't have these immature people? I've never been in any circle which didn't have assholes, jerks and immature people. These people are in every level of society from top to bottom. They are in every class, race and gender, yes there are immature females.
There is an extreme element out there that I've talked to that doesn't seem to want to deal with this basic rule of nature. Skimpy outfits have been devised over a long period of time to have maximal sexual effect on men. They accentuate breasts, hips and buttocks. Very hind-brain stuff. The basic rule of the jungle applies everywhere and always will, we live in a convenient delusion that it doesn't because the biggest and baddest group is those that support the law. Nevertheless, if you walk down the wrong alley dressed in a sexually arousing way you are more likely to get raped than if you walk down that same alley dressed like a sack of potatoes. Any expectation otherwise is insanity.
Would you walk around downtown Compton with $100 bills flopping out of your pockets at the middle of the night? What about with a KKK outfit on? Maybe that would be asking for trouble? I would assume that the results of the actions of the person doing these things was their own fault.
That said, it's only tangentially related to the thread topic and not particularly relevant since a rapist is still a rapist. The fault ultimately is on the criminal; a jewel thief that snatches a jewel from an unprotected display case is just as liable for the crime as one that steals from a vault.
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. - Hunter S. Thompson
"A lot of these women are out of their element"
the whole problem being discussed in this thread is men unable to think of women as fellow equal human beings and can only think of them as a pair of tits and ass. that would be you, douchebag, if you are serious. if you are trolling us: congratulations, you have the appearance of the words of a sexist asshole well faked
"I would say that we need to promote Defcon and the community absolutely and never blame the community for the behavior of members of the community."
congratulations, consider yourself hired at the department of illogical nonsense doublespeak
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
then read about the MULTIPLE accounts of sexual assault again
thanks
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
anyone actually in the rape fantasy subculture has a pretty clear understanding of the boundary between pretend play and real life. the idea that you think some douchebag threatening rape to a woman is part of an expression of subculture is either 1. hilarious at how stupid you are in the excuse making department, or 2. frightening about how deluded you are at the boundaries between dealing with real people in real life social contexts and consensual fantasy play. rape fantasy subculture participants clearly get it. you clearly do not
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
in America, women are a source of worship and must be held up high and wooed, men must do all the work. Be careful of what you say to these women, they are like jeckl and hyde, one moment they're loving, or they appear to be, the next they want to bear many children with you and other men so they can have a nice payout for their Vegas and other trips.
do you understand the fucking concept?
"My point is if you extend sexual harassment to be illegal everywhere you can effectively never attempt to have sexual congress."
no, apparently you do not understand the idea of consent
"I am saying that as mammals you do have to expect that in social situations people will make advances of a sexual nature, the instinct to breed is pretty well ingrained."
'i gronk, have penis, i grope you, hurrr durr snort'
you're pretty much an ignorant douchebag. learn the concepts of respect and consent, which most of us learn in kindergarten. thanks
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
This commentary on this article will undoubtedly be similar to that of a troll festival. Ooops, *looks above post*, too late.
Is Sexual Harassment Part of Hacker Culture?
Is racism part of Southern US Culture?
Is sexual bullying part of the Siberian culture?
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
Do's and don't's of encouraging women in Linux:
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/x168.html
Ada initiative, supporting women in open technology and culture:
http://adainitiative.org/
Ada initiative (temporary) donation page:
http://adainitiative.org/donation-server-down/
Even though a simple grope might seem fairly innocent (to men), it isn't.
Not only can it be very traumatic for the victim, it is also the beginning of the slope leading to worse sexual offenses for the perpetrator; the lack of respect for women combined with a sexual urge that goes beyond the norm is a clear indicator of worse things to come.
These violators need to be caught as fast as possible and prosecuted so they can get their 'certification' - the brand as a sexual offender. Then we'll have them under control when they're out and give them 'the time of their life' when they're behind bars. The experience of being in jail as a sexual offender are usually so awful that they'll do anything to avoid going back and that will keep them in check as the fear of jail will overrule the sexual urge and keep them from re-offending.
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
Maybe I missed the /. thread on the ReaderCon fiasco, but here's the original complaint
http://glvalentine.livejournal.com/340623.html
Am i the only one who things she is exaggerating a little? What exactly happend according to her (note that i haven't read the version of the events according the guy)
- they talked to each other, he bumped into her few times with his shoulder and elbow. (If you ever visited a con, thic could be perfectly normal if you talk to someone in a tight group of people, in the line for some event for example)
- later in some hallway bottleneck, he put his hands on her shoulders from behind and said "Well, you and I will have a good time!", to which she responded "fuck off" and the guy stopped.
- later he tried to apologise, she told him "Don't want to talk about this, don't worry about it, goodbye,"
- later she published her rant on her blog, which resulted in two-year entry ban on the con for the man.
I don't know how picking up a women in US works, do you have to get prior permission to try to touch them? Or dou you wait for them to touch you first? But wait, isn't it harrassment in oposite way then?
I think Barbara Kruger has your answer: http://edu.warhol.org/app_kruger.html The kind of courage necessary to challenge received opinion in risky ways can shade into, or derive from, an arrogance that refuses to see others (or selected categories of others) as fully human. Fortunately for humanity, courage doesn't always work through the suppression of empathy. But it happens. Also, iconoclasm and outright narcissism can go together. After all, narcissists do tend to think rules don't apply to their own exceptional selves.
And, sadly, an accusation can happen to be both factually true and politically convenient.
It is false evenhandedness to call "on the one hand" for measures to prevent crimes against women and "on the other hand" for measures to prevent false accusations by women. Men are more likely to commit crimes against women when they can do so with impunity due to social and legal traditions that are slanted against female accusers. While the truth of any testimony should be tested fairly, the last thing any group or legal system needs are "protections" specifically meant to discourage women from stating inconvenient facts in public.
Valerie IS blaming everyone. The thread title IS blaming everyone.
Anywhere women are heavily underrepresented,'this wll APPEAR to exist even if merely statistics are thebcause.
Lets say one in ten men are bad people towomen.
In society, men nd women are equally represented,'so the bad men havebspread themsekves thinly over their available targets.
Where women sre one tenth of the group numbers, they can attach to each one, therefore every womsn meets one dickhead. Unlike in 'the real world,. Ergo, ther assume it must be that this group is much more sexist.
Add to that a geek culture that doesn't talk to women much, and thebratio of dick to bloke ir increased due to the under representation of the bloke.
The unintended consequence of this will bebfewer blokes talking to women, afraid of censure, but no change in thebdicks, who either don't see it or don't care.
But the short of it is that your comment is complete bollocks.
For fuck sake, it is about hacking not about being a 12yr old online kiddie. When it comes to tech, I think and talk tech, not sex. Mind you, I am not PC because I always use the male form when talking about people "he" rather then "he/she" or if I want to be funny (he/she/it) Slashdot: "but that ain't funny" Shut up!
True geeks don't sexually harass or are racist or have issues with other sexual preferences, to be a true geek means to be open minded and realize that normal does not exist, after all, no geek is normal.
Mind you, the word geek has been so mis-used of late. If you are dutch and make the mistake of visiting tweakers you can see that it has come to include anyone who changes their wallpaper and has people in it that are extremely rigid in their thinking.
Nowadays a geek is no longer somebody who wants to take the world apart to see how it works (and maybe, someday put it back together again) but just anyone who knows how to turn on a computer and lacks social skills. True geeks don't have to lack social skills, they are just people that get pre-occupied and sometimes mistake other people for cats and cats for people. Some of the best geeks I met are the old confused proffessor type, perfectly charming and alright to be with, profided they aren't busy with a problem in their head and have temorarily put the world on hold.
A geek is NOT a hatred filled kid who screams obscenities in his xbox headset where the only tweak is that he used xXNICKXx instead of something readable.
It is sad, I do remember the old days when it wasn't at all unusual to see women at maker groups, both as girlfriends and as makers and the girlfriends often were at least interested to help not just sit their to polish their nails as trophies. But it has changed, as geekhood became bigger, it lost its meaning.
A true geek doesn't need to be PC, it would never enter his or her mind to even make sexual remarks like the ones mentioned in the article. At a true geek meetup, the only reason I would stare at a womans breasts is if she had a gadget between them, who has time to be on the prowl when their are gadgets around? Opening the latest up, better then SEX! And if you feel that is not true, you are NOT a geek. Go away! Aol is that way ->
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Not knowing how to pick up women is not the same as meaning you think it is okay to grab them in the crotch. I don't know to fly a 747 but I am fairly certain that it is not okay to play chicken on the runway.
As a geek I am getting fed up with people putting people with bad social behavior in my group, true geeks might be socially awkward an silent but that does NOT mean every asshole who doesn't give a fuck is a geek.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
I find this discussion really weird. I don't know in the US, but in Germany "hackers" are usually known for being very shy, with poor social skills, especially with women, and most of them are single. Never ever heard of sexual harassment in the hackers' community, seriously. And they also drink far less beer than the average german.
And by the way, in germany an "hacker" would never like to be confused with average "geeks". Graduating in computer science is a little more difficult than reading comics.
Wow. Astonishing.
The suggested guidelines for conventions are a very bad puritan joke. They define use of sexual images as harassment. Seriously? Why slip that in under the disguise of actually doing something against harassment? If you don't like sexual images stay at home or go to (protestant) church.
but it certainly seems like these male baiting articles are now part of Slashdot culture.
Perhaps we should ask if a persecution complex is a part of western culture instead?
The hacker culture or geek culture or whatever you wanna call it...
DOES NOT GIVE A DAMM THAT YOU HAVE TITS AND A PUSSY!
You're gonna need something real in the area where men harass each other all the time.
Big change from the rest of the world isn't it.
You asked for it too. Welcome to equality bitch.
Now go fuck yourself.
rapey mcrapester. in your mind, is not actually trying to rape, which has been around since before we were homo sapiens, no, in your view rapey mcrapester got the idea from japanese cartoons
so, in your opinion, if a douchebag is trapped in an alley with a gun and decides to shoot his way out, it's because he saw this on cartoon network. and if a guy decides to vomit on the casino floor, it's not because he's sick, it's because he watched the hang over too much
hey, genius, here's a wacky idea: maybe someone expressing an interest in rape, is almost a RAPIST
sorry if that's too bold for you. occam's razor and all that: when you hear hoofbeats, think horse rapist, not horse rape cosplay character
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I think the problem is uniquely fixable as far as geek culture goes. Geeks understand rules. We make and use them.
All that is needed is education. Mabye a little bit more adapted to Geeks in spelling out more precisely what the rules are and more importantly why they should obey them.
All it takes is for the leaders in geek culture, the popular CEOs, the uber geeks, the Linux Torvald's to publicly and strongly state they are for education, perhaps providing the education.
There is no reason to think that it is part of hacker culture, but women always face a lot of challenges when they try to enter to any male dominated group.
First of all, among a large enough group of men, there will be at least one asshole who acts very disrespectfully to women. Let's suppose that on average there is one such an asshole per 100 men, and you have 100 attendees on some conference. If there is only one woman among them then probability is very high that she is going to experience sexual harassment (roughly speaking 99%). On the other hand, if you have 50 men and 50 women then probability for any woman to experience sexual harassment is about 1%. (The above numbers are just for demonstration of the point and not based on any actual statistics). Not surprisingly, most women feel much more comfortable in more gender mixed groups.
Aside the issue of sexual harassment, some women are put aback by high stress on competitiveness instead of co-operation in hacker culture. This often makes them feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. However, this is not because men dislike women, but a typical male-bonding ritual includes a lot of arguing even in those cases when both men may be mostly agreed on the issue. I want to underscore that this men's behavior is not specific to hacker culture, in fact, it is even more profoundly expressed in pubs and other places where young men socialize among themselves. When women socialize among themselves (without men), they tend to focus more on co-operation around some shared interests, as well as sharing their emotions about related events. Usually gender mixed groups tend to take the middle ground, so both extremes are eliminated.
The bottom line is that any group that consists mostly of men (for whatever reason) acts quite differently than more gender mixed groups, and that presents a lot of challenges to women who want to be part of them. This has nothing to do with hacker culture.
I don't know how picking up a women in US works, do you have to get prior permission to try to touch them? Or dou you wait for them to touch you first? But wait, isn't it harrassment in oposite way then?
The same way it works everywhere, by reading the non-verbal communication correctly. Which a lot of geeks can't do. Which is pretty much the argument of this story.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
What to one woman is sexual harrassment, is to another, very attractive male behavior. I've met women who felt sexually harassed when told by the opposite sex that they look good, and I've met other women who feel let down if there is not a feeding-frenzy of men hitting on them and constantly vying for their attention and making physical moves/gestures demonstrating such. My first female friend in high school told me she would never consider dating me, because at one point when we were out (as friends), I did not grab her and push her against the wall and make out with her. As I considered her a friend (whom I was certainly attracted to), I did not feel I could do such a thing, and it never crossed my mind to make a physical move on her without first verbally asking for permission.... because of this, she considered me to be a meek loser.
The women who tend to make a big stink about sexual harassment are those who generally don't get much male attention, or who are quite conservative. For the average geek, having to worry about accusations of sexual harassement, and on the other hand having to worry about not being 'aggressive' enough as a man, it can be very confusing.
In my opinion, if a women feels offended that I am interested in her and wanting to get to know her better, thats her problem, not mine. If she asks me to leave her alone, I certainly will. As a man, it is generally our job to approach the women first. If she's not interested, she can say so, and thats the end of that. If she takes the initial approach as sexual harassment, oh well...
If the person in question cannot see that persistence after clearly being told to back off is wrong, then he needs to seek some counseling
But after being clearly told to back off he DID realize that he made a mistake and tried to apologize. The problem is that Genevieve Valentine claims that
if a woman has told you in any way, to any degree, that you are unwelcome, your apology is YOU, VANISHING.
You say we're all the same.
You don't even know my name.
Sometime somewhere someone once hurt you and I'm one of them
You think you know about me
You don't know a damn thing about me!
So I take all the blame
I'm not all men
I'm just one man
I'm not that man!
-Rollins Band - Wrong Man
I think not, and I am certain it shouldn't be. For some reason, every single community I dwell into is always haunted by this topic, and considering it's a behavior I don't respect, I consider those guys should get their man cards removed, because they fail at it.
No excuses, no reasons, no justifications.
We laugh at politics, corporate culture, media bias, movie and music associations, pointing at their failures and their contradictions. We see ourselves some kind of elite of Humanity ... And we can't do better than mimic some primitive civilizations in how we perceive 50% of the population just because of chromosomes and hormones? Are we the kind of morons that complain when we are victims, and then act as brutes and bullies as soon as we have the opportunity to make the life of others miserable just because we happen to have technological insight?
Fuck us.
We should be better than this.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't DEFCON in Las Vegas every year? Could it be that that the geek women are not used to being in a scum ridden city and just don't get out enough to realize their are these shitty people everywhere? As one poster put it most of your typical geeks are introverted and socially awkward , not what a typical geek would do. Id be willing to bet it more of the locals or the staff that are causing these issues.
I notice a lot more followers of the geek cult in IT than in software development or engineering. Kinda interesting how the people who live a much 'geekier' life tend to downplay it, while the people managing the Outlook server feel the need to profess their geek cred every chance they get..
I've noticed this phenomenon in most areas of life. Those who talk big (i.e. brag) tend to do small. It's the quiet ones who tend to accomplish the great things.
Obviously there are exceptions to this rule, but it's not a bad yardstick.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
I'd argue that sexual harassment is not so much an inherent problem with geek/hacker cultures per se, but one particularly egregious manifestation of a wider problem: namely, bullying. It's ironic that geeks and hackers, so frequently the target of bullying from outside groups, would have a bullying problem within its own ranks, but the evidence is too strong to ignore. The same people who harass women in online games also spend a great deal of time pwning the n00bs and seemingly engaging in contests of who can hurl the vilest slurs. We see this not only in gaming, but in online discussions as well, and while most of the slurs are somewhat toned down in the convention scene, the Readercon fiasco shows that harassment remains alive and well even when real-life interaction enters into the equation.
I wouldn't have expected this in a community composed so strongly of people who know what it means to be bullied, but there we have it. And as long as we continue to let that sort get away with this behavior, it's only going to get worse.
The parent poster obviously behaves this way since he just can't seem to fathom the idea that anyone else knows the proper way to act around others.
Yes, sexual expression can be channeled, by you are suggesting de facto elimination which is a crazy. You know how you express your desire not be sexually advanced upon? By saying "No thanks". Maybe you can even wear a chastity bracelet or something to shield yourself from any social interaction.
The "penalty cards" might be a step toward resolving the issue. I don't know what's on the green cards, though. I would have to say that if I received a green card for professionally communicating with a female, I would find it highly condescending. Please hand me your business card instead.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Men like it when they have to change to accommodate some bitch at work we have to, at play fuck you.
Just for fun, I tried reading this article with gender-neutral pronouns. It really makes its point that way.
he bumped into her few times with his shoulder and elbow.
The way I read it at first, I thought that he was touching HER elbow/shoulder with his hand. As a writer, she should know a difference between "touching" and "bumping into".
Either way, even at a con it is kinda hard to touch someone with your shoulder while you're facing them and talking to them - unless you're deliberately trying to nudge them in a nudge-nudge-wink-wink chummy sort of way.
Which she obviously didn't find chummy as she moved away each time.
And then he came on with a lame "you make me think bad thoughts" come-on, and was shot down and ignored.
At the con, someone introduced himself to me and started a conversation, accompanied by elbow-and-shoulder touches that I moved away from. At one point he said I had to stop saying things that "made [him] want to say "wrong" things"; I shut him down politely, turned my back on him, and talked to someone else until he eventually left.
later in some hallway bottleneck, he put his hands on her shoulders from behind and said "Well, you and I will have a good time!", to which she responded "fuck off" and the guy stopped.
Well actually...
From behind me, the man wrapped an arm around my shoulders and said, "Well, you and I will have a good time!" at which point I spun and said loudly and clearly "You do NOT touch me," and moved inside.
He stayed in the bottleneck for more than thirty minutes trying to catch my eye before he left; I recruited someone to walk me to the elevator.
- later he tried to apologise, she told him "Don't want to talk about this, don't worry about it, goodbye,"
- later she published her rant on her blog, which resulted in two-year entry ban on the con for the man.
Well actually, there is another bit or two between those two points.
Sunday morning, I fell in with some friends and was chatting near the entrance to the book room, when I saw him, again hovering nearby. My friends, up to speed on the issue, eventually tried to walk me to the table, at which point he cut in with us and started apologizing. I said, "Don't want to talk about this, don't worry about it, goodbye," and kept walking.
Later, he stopped by the Clarkesworld table again and hovered for so long that a friend stepped in while I went elsewhere.
Apparently, all he picked up from the line above was the "don't worry about it" part, so he proceeded to stalk her.
At which point she contacted the con staff.
Then she wrote about it on her livejournal.
THEN, after the guy was originally suspended for two years (though apparently the con claims that "Harassment of any kind...will result in permanent suspension of membership"), she dug around and found out that her case was not the first complaint against the guy for being "too friendly" to women.
Including at least one marriage proposal to a person he only just met.
Sooo... umm... he may have actually gotten off easy with just a ban from that one con, although his reputation of a "ladies man" will surely spread due to this publicity.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Butthurt?
The US Constitution isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than what we have now
There is no such thing as sexual harassment. When people compete for something there is always tension and a desire to get ahead by any means. This is what it means to fight for what one wants. People are levered upon all day by all kinds of people for all kinds of reasons. To separate one form of political manipulation from another is ridiculous as all of these categories are about establishing dominion. Initiation into any culture is difficult and challenging-I regularly have experienced racism my entire life, but to pesonalize it and say it is wrong is foolish. People want to dominate on me and will push any button necessary to ensure that dominion. This is life in the Milky Way Galaxy on Planet Earth. Get over it.
Combat Monk
Likely provoked by sexual frustration and amplified by porn. They need to change their attitudes and learn how to socialize with women. Or, find another outlet for their frustration that doesn't punish women for their short commings.
Someone with the username "fisted" is being put off by mild sexual crudity?
Reading non-verbal communication? We're talking about adults here, not kids. If its not verbal, its not there - its in your head.
Really. Though I usually say this the other way round, if the punishment for rape is having your knackers cut off, then the punishment for getting drunk and wearing revealing clothes should be getting raped.
Because, you know, EITHER punishment IS NOT appropriate punishment for EITHER act.
It's the juxtaposition. Rennt was pointing out that TWX's use of the term "attention whore" makes him part of the problem. TWX is right, but doing nothing to improve the situation.
[thats_the_joke.jpg]
<\explaining_the_joke>
In a world where we are trying to push more women to get into the engineering, programming, and scientific communities...why in the hell would anyone want to if they knew they would be treated in such a manner? The more stories I hear the more alienated I become from males in general. However, this is a convention that gives people a chance to learn new information and see new technology; not some frat party. It really does not matter who the woman is or what her line of work is, they all deserve respect. These ignorant cock-controlled boys need to grow up.
I had several friends in college that were the victims of rape. It affected me greatly as I was close with them and felt that I had somehow failed them as a freind in not being there to stop the attacks. As a result, I volunterred to work with campus security as a campus escort every other weekend. We would go in pairs to escort college students of either gender that felt that they were not safe to travel back to campus alone from wherever they found themselves. As part of my work with this group, we got some instruction time from the actual campus police. This included some rather useful information:
1) sexual predators prey on college campuses because there are a lot of targets there. From the mouths of the ones they caught and convicted, they chose to work the area because college students make poor decisions. They consume too much alcohol and walk back to their dorms alone. They tend to feel invincible during their college years and don't take any precautions. The girls are often attired in such a way as to make them unlikely to run away and to make the actual act quick.
2) The above mentioned facts tend to skew the number when surveying for criminal activity for the neighborhoods around college campuses and the campuses themselves. The rate of rape occurance on and around the campus was as much as 4 times higher for reported incidents then for compareable areas elsewhere in the cities.
3) While the reports of rape by campus females were high, the rate of reported rapes where the assailant was known to the victim was no higher than the general population of the area (in other words, date rape as a reportable statistic was shown not to be much worse on a college campus then elsewhere).
4) A nontrivial percentage of rapes reported to the campus police were later found out to be blatant falsehoods. The numbers were high enough that they had to consider the possibility on every investigation where the victim claimed to know the attacker. Because of this issue, investigations that could normally be handled quicker took extra time to sort out. The only thing that the police could do to combat this was to charge the reporter with filing a false police report, which was rarely done as the authorities often felt sympathy to the reporter as they were often an upset party in a failed relationship and they didn't want actual victims to be fearful of reporting actual rapes. In many cases, the falsely accused party was already expelled from the university under zero-tolerance policies when the truth was revealed, and had to apply for reinstatement and suffered negative consequences due to the report in the first place. This led to a change in policy whereby both the alleged victim and alleged attacker were kept anonymous in all reports of the incident until an investigation could be completed.
In all, I learned a lot about the not so pretty aspects of college life. Given the propensity to jump all over anyone that talks about personal responsibility as equaling victim shaming, I'm going to keep my comments on that brief. No one ever deserves to be assaulted in any way for just going about their own personal business. I leave that statement as fact. That being said, you HAVE to be cognizent of your surroundings. There are many places that are littered with people that have no respect for women or the word of the law. If you don't have a group of people around you to protect you, and you're going into those areas while not at the height of vigilance, you are taking a very real risk with your own personal safety. I wish the world wasn't like this. I wish it was all a bed of roses. It isn't. You can beat the drum for women's lib and victim's rights all you want. It's not going to change the minds of those that want to hurt you. They've already decided that they aren't going to obey the law or society's moors. This won't protect you from date rape. There are scum everywhere. They only make up a VERY small percentage of the population, but they get plenty of press when they
Most of the conferences are filled with boys, not men (speaking strictly in maturity not age).
the simple fact is that the "experts" at really doing things in Geek-world are usually well-centered, logical, and while they don't care much for social situations can handle themselves in the just fine.
While you might be able to explain many of the occurrences mentioned in the article with social ineptitude, bullying, or lashing out at the opposite sex, that doesn't work as a reasonable excuse for the behavior. As with any other culture, in the geek (not greek) culture it's us who have to set the norms.
Sexual Harassment is part of the human condition. It can be reduced with societal pressure, but cannot be eliminated as long as we have sexual urges, attractions, and revulsions. And THAT is because sexual harassment is an OPINION. Sexual Harassment is an unwanted sexual advance, meaning that while one action is harassment in one circumstance, the same action under different conditions is NOT. Simply because of the attitude of the harassee.
THINK! It's patriotic
Prison rape is never funny!
Someone kept trying to apologise?
What a sick fuck, since he was male he was probably a rapist.
I wont deny guys can be pigs @ these sorts of events, but honestly.. that story doesn't sound all that bad. Is it not possible this guy had a legitimate crush on this girl? Made an awkward and ill fated, but well intentioned pass at her? And then apologized profusely for it?
I think she blended too much of the negative experiences she had together, and didn't separate acceptable human interaction from being belittled.
Oh no, some nerd awkwardly hit on me, and then felt really bad for botching it so much and tried to apologize to me, but i wouldnt let him CAUSE EW....
this lady is insane. She was treated poorly by the panel, but beyond that, she's just paranoid of basic human interaction.
The problem is not just that such people exist - we know they do - but rather how they are dealt with and the overall message it sends.
Geeks tend to rage against the "bad guys" in other professional fields. How many times on slashdot have you heard arguments about the "bad cops" out there? Usually it's brought up that "if you know about bad things and allow them to happen, you're also doing a bad thing"
My understanding is that the organizers of the event essentially ignored/downplayed this issue until it became public. It's not any different than a "good cop" looking the other way when a "bad cop" does something wrong.
So, while many of those at the event are perfectly normal, good people, shame on those who stood by and/or those in charge who didn't deal with it appropriately.
Unless my google search for "Lena Test image" (also the image on wikipedia) is showing something other than what's used for printers, it's a pretty tame image.
Pretty girl, hat, showing a bit of shoulder. Nothing crude about it. It shows less skin than some of Leonardo's art, or the famous "David" pictures.
It doesn't appear to be a playboy pinup image used for the test (or if it is, it's rather tasteful and likely vintage).
Who cares what the woman does/did for a living.
I worked in the industry for years. About the only guys I ever met who fit the description listed were not the top dogs and even then it was only a few of the techs. Most of the programmers and IT people in general were no different than regular people. I met very few people who were satisfied to stay programmers either, which was good as the most of the companies wanted people with ambition to "move up the ladder", not find a niche to settle into where they could be comfortable until retirement.
As I said, except for a rare few, the IT folks acted like normal people and treated women like normal people. The so called "Defcon Guys" didn't keep their jobs long no matter how good they were.
As to the blogs, many of the "Feminist blogs" are not run by normal people either.
http://web.archive.org/web/20020802081547/katesfeminist.info/rape/controversy/
I think Dark Tangent should sponsor a "Spot the Perp Contest!" Just like Spot the Fed but allow the community to self-police and weed out the perps. Give the winner a free t-shirt, shame the perp on the wall of shame, toss their ass and make it clear that one douchebag doesn't speak for the whole community. Our community should be equal opportunity in its treatment of others just as we are willing to accept ideas from anyone. Women shouldn't avoid conferences because their rights of personal and emotional security will be violated. Everyone should stand up for this. We don't leave a hacker out in the cold because of their ethnicity (Russian hacker Dmitry Skylarov), past indiscretions (Kevin Mitnick), academic status (Christopher Soghoian) so why should gender be any different?!?!
The sample policy recommends "If a participant engages in harassing behavior, the conference organizers may take any action they deem appropriate, including warning the offender or expulsion from the conference [with no refund]."
What bothers me about this is the fact that if someone complains, and it may be just because someone doesn't like someone else, the recommendation is to throw the accused out "with no refund" as a very minimum. I'm all for making everyone feel welcome and comfortable and of course safe. But sexual harassment laws and this policy assume the accusation is accurate and true. There's no recommendation to ever verifythe accusation.
I see two major issues here; first and foremost is denial. Yes, there is a problem, and if you can't see it, it's probably because you are part of it (and almost certainly a male). It's like how whites in the South think that racism isn't a problem anymore. This *needs* to be addressed, and the first step is admitting there is a problem. As for dealing with the problem itself, I can say that part of it is the whole "brogrammer" phenomenon which has cropped up in recent years. I can say unreservedly, brogrammers need to fuck off; they are not welcome, and if they won't police themselves, we will. Hacker culture is one that should, above all else, respect intellect and creativity; gender, oneupmanship and "frat" antics don't come into it at any point.
The second issue I see is that the answer to the article question is no, sexual harassment is not a part of hacker culture. If sexual harassment is happening, it needs to have a bright light shone upon it, like a software bug, so that it can be fixed. We need to not allow these broken windows to exist in our house. The perpetrators should be shamed and banned from conferences, at a minimum. Some of the anecdotes I've heard would warrant criminal charges being pressed. The New Atheist movement is having similar issues, and they are starting to respond by banning people. If you think this is "censorship", fuck off; you can get your own fucking website and post all the misogyny you want, but you can't force others to host it for you.
I went to university with Valerie, and she's very smart, probably smarter than a lot of people here (definitely smarter than the knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing, misogynistic brogrammers who have infested the computer industry). She's been writing and talking about this problem for long time; it would be wise to listen to her.
One last point: I'm not "disgusted" or "offended" by these acts; I consider them the vulgar acts of those not fully human (for they lack empathy) and therefore beneath my contempt. These people should be treated like the animals they act like, and kept out of hacker culture so that we can get on with real work.
Nathan's blog
If you lack the self-restraint to be professional where appropriate, or are too dense to know what's appropriate, then you merit crushing.
This is easy in a workplace. Set the policy, enforce the policy fairly, and treat defiance of policy as grounds for making an example of the problem human to deter others.
Some problems are simple matters of imposing discipline on those who lack it. The ideal procedures for managing humans were perfected in successful militaries over thousands of years. They work. End of story.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
1. As a young man, you're on your own. Society divides and conquers. Unlike women who have advocates looking out for them (NOW, Women's Study Departments, government, non-profit organizations, political advocacy groups) almost no one is looking out for you.
2. Don't believe the crap about the patriarchy. More women are accepted and attend college. More degrees are awarded to women than men. Women outlive men. More men commit suicide. Men are twice as likely to be victims of violence, including murder. If you consider sexual assaults in prisons, twice as many men are raped as women (society thinks prison rape is funny). The streets are littered with homeless men, sprinkled with a few homeless women. Statically, women are happier than men. The myth that girls are being cheated by are educational system is belied by the fact that schools are bastions of femininity, mostly run by and taught by women. Girls outperform boys in school. It is the boys in school getting ****ed over, and prescribed ritalin for being boys. Real wages for men are falling, while real wages for women are rising. Just because someone says something enough times, doesn't make it true. You have nothing to feel guilty about.
3. Society will try and make you feel guilty for wanting sex. From grade school forward, we are told that men think about sex 3000 times a day. There is a widespread believe that men cheat on their girlfriends/spouses more than women do. The fact is, women cheat just as much as men do, they are just better at not getting caught. Recent studies using college students prove that throughout the day, men think about food more than sex, and women think about sex almost as much as men do.
4. Divorce rates are above 50% in most states. No couple goes into a marriage thinking "hey, we are going to get divorced", yet over 50% of them end up getting divorced. As a man, you are at a distinct disadvantage in Family Courts across America. Judges for the most part award custody of children to the women, and by and large, alimony payments are being paid by men and are being received by women.
5. In divorce and separation the law has absolutely no tolerance for male anger, threats, or withholding of support. The law does very little to hinder typical female parental alienation, or withholding of access.
6. For women a comfortable lifestyle means money. For men it means sex, a well cared for home, and a good meal. After divorce women have the right to the financial support of their husbands so they don’t suffer a decrease in lifestyle. Men have no comparable guarantee.
7. After divorce women can use alimony to go back to school and pursue their dreams. After divorce men are prohibited from going back to school and pursuing their dreams unless going to school doesn’t reduce alimony payments.
8. After some years of marriage, a woman will have to be supported for the rest of her life if she bails on the marriage.
9. Marriage is the only modern day legal equivalent of a 'debtors prison'. As a man, if you fail to make alimony or child support payments (even if you do not have the financial means to do so), you can be thrown in jail. There is no other legal contract that could force a person into jail for the inability to pay his debts, other than marriage.
10. Marriage is the only legal contract where one party can unilaterally breach the contract and at the same time receive financial compensation (alimony) for not living up to their part of the contract. In any area of law (other than marriage/family law), the penalty would be assessed to the party breaking the contract.
10. Children: It is a myth that you have to be married to have children.
11. Marriage today (some call it Marriage 2.0) is not what it was throughout history and up until 50 (or even 25) years ago (Marriage 1.0). The legal definition of marriage has been altered and changed so significantly from just two decades ago, that it shouldn't even be called marriage anymore. Today's marriage is a one-sided contract
I'm probably too late to the party for anyone to see this comment, but since I've been on the receiving end of sexual harassment multiple times in my current job, I'd like to make an observation.
Sexual harassment happens when one gender is in the majority and is also in a place where that gender is expected to be in the majority. Like my day job for instance.
A medical client requests that we ask women who are setting an appointment for a mammogram if they have breast implants. Why? The radiologists need to take twice as many pictures apparently. However, because I'm the person who needs to program that question in and because I work as a man, I end up getting treated like I'm a pervert, and several older women there offer to show me their boobs if I'm that interested in older women's boobs.
Ladies, I care about as much about seeing your boobs as you do my dick. It's sexual harassment either way.
It goes on like that.
Sexual harassment isn't a geek problem or a male problem. It's a human problem, and pretending it's a male problem only is disingenuous.
At least men know that sometimes it pays off to act like a gentleman around ladies. I've yet to meet the woman who cares about acting like anything less than an obtuse, sexist pig around gentlemen.
Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
privilege, n.
1. A special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to one person or group of people.
2. The parent comment.
Instead of forcing every woman you see to tell you no, how about you don't assume they all want to talk to you? Why does your desire to chat someone up cancel out her wishes not to be hit on at a computer hacker convention?
Yeah, they might just have to talk to each other about computers.
I'm not saying there should be a prohibition on people talking to each other about offtopic subjects, I'm just saying maybe a woman goes to a computer hacker convention to hang out and talk to people about computer hacking or whatever, so you don't have to assume she's there to get some action.
One of the best possible answers to this article was in a commentary by a female reader (schachin) in the same page:
So just remember in a barrel of apples there are always some worm infested ones among the many bright and shiny.
Worm-infested apples can't be avoided in an orchard, but they have no place in a dish. If a conference condones its participants considering civilized behavior optional, that's good reason to avoid it. To avoid getting harrassed, and to avoid condoning harrassment.
Asked and answered, several days ago. You even responded to it. If there are advances to be made, it is traditional in our society for the men to make them. He cannot know she is not receptive to them until she tells him so. You appear to be of the opinion that a "computer hacker convention" is not a place for sexual advances, which is rather odd; conventions are not just occasions where people go to see papers presented, they are also social occasions where like-minded people can gather together.
Some of these guys have spent their entire youth sitting in a basement coding, cracking, smoking weed and looking at porn. They never went to clubs, they never went to concerts, they never met any girls.
Not suprisingly, many of them still have the sexual maturety of a 15 yr old.
I am a retired army Sergeant. Which postion do you suppose is easier Combat Infantry platoon leader or Admin or Finance platoon leader? My experience has taught me this female use for the sex card that gives the extra edge for promotion, or job assignments. They will play, you put did/did not assign me that job a. because I am a girl and dont want me to show I can do it. b. you should not have put me on that job because I am a girl. I have had that played both ways by the same female for the same assignment.
The readercon reversal thing I think I way overblown. A lifetime ban? I think a two year ban will suffice with then a probation thereafter provided he confesses and acknowledges his actions and how inappropriate they were.
Chances are he wouldn't agree to the last.
sudo make me a sandwich
Who works on security staff at a different convention - Hackers On Planet Earth, I kept hearing about how mistreated women felt at Defcon. I've never been to Defcon, so I can't really speak to that. But, what I can say is that at H.O.P.E. we don't really have that problem, or at least we don't get many complaints (and if you're there and you have something like this to complain about, do come right down to the security desk so we can do something about it). Maybe it's because the women on staff are just as likely to boot you for refusing to move if you're violating fire code. Maybe it's because the SINGLE time in the past eight years I was treated disrespectfully, the offending party was ejected from the con within 3 minutes. During a keynote. Maybe it's because the convention only happens every other year, and people don't want to waste the opportunity for learning by being a stupid prick. I don't know why. I do know that every woman I have spoken to at H.O.P.E. felt safe, comfortable, and welcome and had the opportunity to not only participate in, but also lead intelligent discourse. And women made up at least 35% of the badges I checked at this year's door.
As not a coder, I may not meet your definition of a "hacker", but my interests in ham radio, copyright, and locksporting give me plenty of right to be there. Also, moving 3 palates of club mate. So, do fuck right off on that subject.
RubyJourney