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Sir Tim Berners-Lee Accuses UK Government of "Draconian Internet Snooping"

An anonymous reader writes "According to British daily The Telegraph, Sir Tim Berners-Lee has warned that plans to monitor individuals' use of the internet would result in Britain losing its reputation as an upholder of web freedom. The plans, by Home Secretary Theresa May, would force British ISPs and other service providers to keep records of every phone call, email and website visit in Britain. Sir Tim has told the Times: 'In Britain, like in the US, there has been a series of Bills that would give government very strong powers to, for example, collect data. I am worried about that.' Sir Tim has also warned that the UK may wind up slipping down the list of countries with the most Internet freedom, if the proposed data-snooping laws pass parliament. The draft bill extends the type of data that internet service providers must store for at least 12 months. Providers would also be required to keep details of a much wider set of data, including use of social network sites, webmail and voice calls over the internet." Jimmy Wales doesn't seem to be a very big fan of the UK snooping either.

192 comments

  1. Who cares when Google is around? by For+Freedoms · · Score: 2

    Google already collects all this data and much more. They have analytics and various scripts like jquery embedded on around 99.9% sites. Facebook handles the rest. With Google closely working with NSA and other agencies, who cares? They already have the data right there. Google is officially the internets big brother, already!

    1. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      They have analytics and various scripts like jquery embedded on around 99.9% sites.

      Not for me they don't son. None of this noscript pussying around either, broken sites are broken -- turn javascript off!

    2. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Uhm....
      First of all - Google collects data about my VOIP calls? I don't think so.
      Google is mostly only present on the web, not the rest of the internet.
      Even then, you have to be logged into a Google account.
      Even then, they don't collect data they don't care about.
      Even then, Google is one of the few countries that won't just hand whatever data over to the government that they ask for with no questions.

      Even Google wouldn't want to retain every detail of everything a user does - ISPs certainly don't. I can only think of one place that would really love this idea - hard drive makers. Think about it - when everything you do is logged in detail, and that data has to be retained long-term, then the ISPs and government will have to store it somewhere. It's going to be Hard Disk, at least until it gets cut to tape.

    3. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by Canazza · · Score: 2

      hold on, I thought jQuery was run by a not-for-profit foundation, not Google?

      --
      It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for being subtle.
    4. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Google runs a CDN (Content distribution network) that hosts JQuery and it has become one of the main ways to include JQuery in your website. There are many advantages to this (since many websites all load Jquery from the same url, one cached version makes all those sites load quicker, etc), but the disadvantage is that since the file gets pulled directly from Google's webservers, they get to roughly monitor website traffic. The catch-22 is that most JQuery powered sites would be using Google Analytics (or similar software) anyway so it's a non issue.

    5. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by fa2k · · Score: 2

      Uhm....
      First of all - Google collects data about my VOIP calls? I don't think so.

      on Google Volce (not technically VoIP) and Google chat sure. They also sync your contacts for android, not sure about the call history

      Google is mostly only present on the web, not the rest of the internet.

      I'll give you that one. They have DNS and email, but it's all optional. For email, they aren't saving anything more than any other webmail provider. For DNS, you have no idea what they save.

      Even then, you have to be logged into a Google account.

      For them to save data? No. Just no.

      Even then, they don't collect data they don't care about.

      When they care about *logging wireless packets* from their Streetview cars, we can conclude that they care about almost all data

      Even then, Google is one of the few countries that won't just hand whatever data over to the government that they ask for with no questions.

      You can have this one too. But we don't know if they have deals with CIA et al.

      Even Google wouldn't want to retain every detail of everything a user does - ISPs certainly don't.

      ISPs aren't in the advertisement or world domination business. If Google thinks that a piece of data may help them target ads better in 5 years, they store it.. Disk space is chap (they have petabytes of satellite images and streetview images coming in all the time, for example).

      I'm surprised that you didn't use the argument that people could just avoid Google, Chrome, etc., but they can't avoid the government. You probably know, then, that between AdSense, Google Analytics, Google plus buttons, Custom search, they know about most sites you visit.

    6. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      Google is one of the few countries

      I knew Google was big, but I didn't think they were that big :)

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    7. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by theRunicBard · · Score: 1

      Oh, they're GETTING that big :) . And I for one welcome our Linux-using, geeky overlords! There was actually a book/paper about how Google is becoming more like a country with each year.

    8. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by FireFury03 · · Score: 4, Informative

      First of all - Google collects data about my VOIP calls? I don't think so.

      on Google Volce (not technically VoIP) and Google chat sure.

      Well, duhh, yes - the service provider you're buying a service from knows you're buying that service. If you don't want google to know about it, use a different service provider (but then that service provider knows...). This is no different from how its always been, whether on the internet or not - the telco knows when you made a phone call through their network, the baker knows when you bought a loaf of bread from him.

      They also sync your contacts for android

      Only if you tell them to... You can happilly use an Android device without asking Google to sync your contacts if you want to.

      not sure about the call history

      Google only gets your call history if you ask them to back up all your data. Again, you don't have to use this functionality (personally, I back up my phone nightly using rsync over my wifi network, so I don't bother using Google's backup stuff).

      I'll give you that one. They have DNS and email, but it's all optional.

      So, just like all the stuff you said above - they provide some services, its up to you whether you use those services and if you do they are going to know something about you in the same way as anyone else providing those services would.

      For email, they aren't saving anything more than any other webmail provider.

      Google _do_ analyse your email content to target advertising at you, which is more than many other webmail providers (although I imagine the likes of yahoo and hotmail do the same these days).

      Even then, they don't collect data they don't care about.

      When they care about *logging wireless packets* from their Streetview cars, we can conclude that they care about almost all data

      I would say that Google's attitude seems to be "lets collect as much data as we can, we might find a neat way of analysing it in the future". There are, of course, good and bad things about that. Afterall, people use Google's services precisely because they work really well, and a lot of that is down to Google figuring out how to analyse your data in new and useful ways (useful to *you* as well as them).

      That said, I don't really see the big deal with the whole wireless logging thing. They caught some packets that were broadcast in the clear into a public space for anyone with a receiver to see. If people didn't want their network traffic to be seen by others they had ample opportunity to encrypt it *using the standard functionality of their router*. And even so, the streetview car is moving at speed, it won't capture more than a few packets so they're going to be hard pushed to get anything particularly scary from the data. The whole thing strikes me like someone standing in their front window naked and then complaining that someone who drove past caught a glimpse of them - if you don't like it you should've drawn the curtains.

    9. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      I just had a thought; what would the Google National Anthem be?

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    10. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just had a thought; what would the Google National Anthem be?

      Japanese companies often have anthems which the employees have to sing.

      For example: Mitsubishi Anthem

    11. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by fa2k · · Score: 2

      If you don't want google to know about it, use a different service provider (but then that service provider knows...). This is no different from how its always been, whether on the internet or not - the telco knows when you made a phone call through their network, the baker knows when you bought a loaf of bread from him.

      The difference between Google and other companies is that

      1. Most companies don't claim to be interested in collecting data. You effectively have to trust them to delete the information when they no longer need it for billing and accounting. Google does save the data, and you have to trust them not to do anything evil with the data. The difference is that you have to trust the telephone company (ugh) for a short time, while you have to trust Google until its demise.

      2. Google provides lots of different services, and can combine the data. There can be a "synergy" effect, where small pieces of data are not useful to anyone, but if you have lots of pieces you get a detailed picture, and with good algorithms, a deeper knowledge of the person in question.

      As you said below, having lots of detailed information is not necessarily bad. Looking at how law enforcement and the military are grasping for this kind of info, it's tempting to conclude that the info itself grants power, but that's not correct. The government already has the power to use force on people, but only on people who break the law. Having more data just increases the likelihood of them being able to prove that you broke a law. My concern is that there is a similar scenario where Google can use their data in a way that I don't agree with, but I can't think of such a scenario.

      I would say that Google's attitude seems to be "lets collect as much data as we can, we might find a neat way of analysing it in the future". There are, of course, good and bad things about that. Afterall, people use Google's services precisely because they work really well, and a lot of that is down to Google figuring out how to analyse your data in new and useful ways (useful to *you* as well as them).

      That said, I don't really see the big deal with the whole wireless logging thing.

      Absolutely agree that the wireless sniffing thing is overblown. It was just meant as a well known example of systematic collection of data.

    12. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The whole thing strikes me like someone standing in their front window naked and then complaining that someone who drove past caught a glimpse of them - if you don't like it you should've drawn the curtains."

      With this opinion, I am sure you are one of those: "If you go around naked and get raped, you deserve it."

      Just because I did not go through 50 settings and turn off SSID announcement etc and make it harder for myself and others to use the wireless network does not mean others should abuse it.

      Same goes for leaving my door open. Just because my door is open does not mean it's OK for others to go in.

    13. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by fa2k · · Score: 1

      2. Google provides lots of different services, and can combine the data.

      By that, I didn't just mean provides services [to you] . There's a lot of "collateral" data collection, for situations like when slashdot uses Google Analytics or when I write an email to someone with gmail (the gmail address on my slashdot profile isn't my primary one, but I do use it). In a technical sense, I am a first party, because my browser actually goes and contacts Google's servers to load the analytics scripts, but in practice I'm more of a third party.

    14. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 2

      Which is why I host jquery locally (and a trimmed down version at that, I don't use all the features) and use the inbuilt logging that almost every server comes with.

      Don't rely on third parties to host code.

      --
      Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    15. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, just like all the stuff you said above - they provide some services, its up to you whether you use those service

      Yes, you can opt out. But someday you'll e-mail a Gmail user, or call someone on what turns-out to be a Google Voice-hosted phone number.

    16. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Considering revenue as like GDP, Google is larger than many countries. They'd be about the 160th (out of 210) largest country by GDP.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    17. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by shiftless · · Score: 1

      GOOGLE ISN'T THE GOVERNMENT, YOU STUPID ASS.

      some random lower case text inserted here

      I still have to insert more though because... (imagine this:) IT'S LIKE YELLING (duh)

    18. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but you cant use the features in an android phone without a google account.

      So its like... let us log you... or you get JUST a phone.

    19. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      God save our data?

    20. Re:Who cares when Google is around? by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      The difference between Google and other companies is that

      1. Most companies don't claim to be interested in collecting data. You effectively have to trust them to delete the information when they no longer need it for billing and accounting. Google does save the data, and you have to trust them not to do anything evil with the data. The difference is that you have to trust the telephone company (ugh) for a short time, while you have to trust Google until its demise.

      I think you're naieve if you trust the telephone company not to keep your data forever. Just because they don't actively claim to want to collect data doesn't mean they aren't interested in doing it. For example, BT's internet arm never publicly said they were interested in collecting lots of data about their customers before they trialled Phorm without their customers' consent. So why should I believe BT's telco arm is uninterested in collecting data about me just because they've never publicly said they are?

      Similarly, if you use a loyalty card in the supermarket, they are collecting data about you for purposes beyond billing, and there is no reason to believe they are going to delete it any time soon. Hell, even if you don't use a loyalty card, they are probably still profiling you, using your credit card number as identification.

      2. Google provides lots of different services, and can combine the data. There can be a "synergy" effect, where small pieces of data are not useful to anyone, but if you have lots of pieces you get a detailed picture, and with good algorithms, a deeper knowledge of the person in question.

      As I said, if you don't like Google collecting data on you, you are free to not use their services. Sure, they will still be able to collect some statistics on your browsing habits by means of adsense, analytics, etc. But that really is no different to buying a loaf of bread from the baker, and the baker helping their neighbouring shops by telling them "this customer buys bread from me on tuesdays and thursdays".

      If you want to use services provided by a company, you have to be happy to pay what the service provider is charging. For some service providers, there is a direct financial cost; for Google they are costing you some of your privacy. In either case, no one is forcing you to buy these services, you are free to go ahead and not buy services that have a cost that you are not willing to pay.

      The government already has the power to use force on people, but only on people who break the law. Having more data just increases the likelihood of them being able to prove that you broke a law.

      The "good" part of this argument only really applies if you fully trust the current and all future governments. For example, imagine how much worse off the jews would have been when the Nazis came to power in Germany, had the government had this kind of detailed information about their citizens.

      The significant difference between government data collection and private data collection is that the government uses the force of law to enforce collection. For example, Google says they analyse emails to collect information about Gmail users, and I am free to decide I don't want to pay that cost and use a different service provider for my email; whereas the government can mandate that *all* email service providers must allow them to collect information and this takes away my choice - I cannot just avoid the ones that are collecting information because they are all required to do this.

      My concern is that there is a similar scenario where Google can use their data in a way that I don't agree with, but I can't think of such a scenario.

      It is a valid concern, and you have to option to avoid using Google's services (hell, you could set your web browser to never request any objects from google's domains if you were that paranoid).

      Absolutely agree that the wi

  2. Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Right to privacy? Nope. Freedom of Speech? Nope.

    Although I think all the conspiracy theorists are crazy, the new world order is the eventual coalescence of the violation of inalienable rights and it's frequency of occurence across all nations.

    1. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by jamstar7 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Right to privacy? Nope. Freedom of Speech? Nope.

      Although I think all the conspiracy theorists are crazy, the new world order is the eventual coalescence of the violation of inalienable rights and it's frequency of occurence across all nations.

      Anymore the difference between the tinfoil hat brigade and the rest of society is, mainstream society believes that 1984 is coming. The tinfoil hat brigade believes it's already here.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    2. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, I do.

      In 1 month, there will be two new developments on the topic of defending your rights. Not activism, just quite simply remaining with the facts and the laws.

      However, when it comes to defending your rights, you may want to consider not starting with giving them away.

      Every time you use Google and Facebook, you are supporting organisations that have grown up in the wake of the 9/11 enthusiasm to render any barrier void against abuse of your information. Every time you use Viber, iMessage, WhatsApp, any Cloud construct, any email alias that resides in the US (such as pobox.com) and in general anything that labels itself as "free", you are in principle allowing a US organisation access to your information. And right now, the US seems to be the most unsafe place on earth for your information to be. Hell, even the EU has come up with terrorist laws that allow intercept without much supervision and it is exactly that lack of transparency that should give you cause for alarm. After all, if they work as elected officials, what do THEY have to hide?

      With rights come obligations, and invading your privacy is not a right, it is a privilege granted in limited circumstances. Be jealous of your data and who uses it, because once it's out there you'll have a hard time getting it back..

      By the same token, do not steal data that doesn't belong to you. Those you steal it from have rights too. Only when you meet all the criteria for whistle blowing (and they demand specificity) you have a route by which a crime can be commuted. Otherwise it remains a crime - no excuses.

    3. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Chrisq · · Score: 2

      Nope. Freedom of Speech? Nope.

      This has been noted in your file ...

    4. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by JustOK · · Score: 1

      Your noting has been noted.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    5. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have to admit I snorked my coke when I saw that the UK government was supposed to be an "upholder of web freedom".

      The UK government is one of the most openly snoopy governments in the developed world. If that's what they do in public, what do they do in private?

      --
      No sig today...
    6. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      Your noting has been noted.

      And your noting my noting has been noted

    7. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If that's what they do in public, what do they do in private?

      We don't know! OMG! Quick pass a law so we can snoop on their snooping!

    8. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      If that's what they do in public, what do they do in private?

      They have sex once a month, with their legitimate wives, in the missionary position. They don't have anything to hide, why should they care about privacy?

    9. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excuse me, we're British!

      http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/22589

    10. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sorry - software police here...

      We noticed that you are noting something using the internet..

      We must inform you you are in violation of several software patents and infringing on notice copyrights..

      We will be nice today and only ask the small sum of $1,000,000,000.00, payable within 3 hours..

      Otherwise we have no other alternative than to take your freedom with all force necessary, and put you behind bars awaiting your trial.

      Of course this is all done to protect us from TERRORIST, CHILD ABUSERS and PIRATES that are disguised as civilians (so every civilian is suspect and has to be monitored) and are out to wreck our society.

      Thank you for your attention...

       

    11. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1

      I think all the conspiracy theorists are crazy

      You're delusional.

      --
      Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
    12. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have to admit I snorked my coke

      Yeah, I thought that is what you said. Your Columbian and American suppliers thank you from the bottom of their protected bank accounts. ;)

    13. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Coisiche · · Score: 3, Funny

      We will be nice today and only ask the small sum of $1,000,000,000.00, payable within 3 hours..

      In Bitcoins, right?

      To prevent the "TERRORIST, CHILD ABUSERS and PIRATES" from using them.

    14. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by daem0n1x · · Score: 2

      I'm happy to see so many politicians being judged by what they do in bed, instead of what they do in the office. It's nice to see the Brits are focused on what really, really matters.

    15. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Coisiche · · Score: 1

      If that's what they do in public, what do they do in private?

      Well you could join MI5 or get a position at GCHQ to find out. But then you wouldn't be able to tell us.

      And obviously you would run the risk of killing yourself but somehow zipping your corpse into a holdall in the bath.

    16. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by englishstudent · · Score: 0

      Maybe some of them DO do it in the office?

      --
      We'll never make it.......oh! we made it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWf3iJjqYCM&list=FL7kKrE4eTs17mQl7eyvJIOg
    17. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      what's wrong with the missionary position? People always knock it - but I think it's great.

    18. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your coke usage has been noted.

    19. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      mainstream society believes that 1984 is coming.

      Mainstream society believes that the government is helping them and keeping them safe from all the big, evil terrorists. The majority couldn't be any more credulous or irrational; mere parasites.

    20. Re:Nobody gives a shit about your rights anymore. by SuperTechnoNerd · · Score: 1

      And only to make babies. And for God's sake, don't enjoy yourself!

  3. Everyone is doing it by GeekWithAKnife · · Score: 2

    Data collection/mining/snooping/browser profiling is so commonplace that pointing the finger in one direction seems almost wrong.
    Your data is already being sold to advertisers by your phone company, by any form you filled in your details, by any "free!" email account etc. So many different companies and bodies are collecting data and personally identifiable information that we're becoming apathetic to it.

    We need strong legislation and standards to make sure data collection is kept to a necessary minimum without infringing any further on privacy.

    Some think an alternative to missing legislation is obfuscation of data. This requires a bit of an effort to give deliberate misleading details, temporary emails, use proxy IPs. This is not feasible for the vast majority.

    We, the people, must strongly voice our discontent about such matters. Let's remind government officials that although the MAFIAA buys them lunch, it has a price.

    --
    A 'singular oddity' is an event that cannot be explained and only happens when you are alone.
    1. Re:Everyone is doing it by rich_hudds · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, as anyone working in IT in the UK can attest, we have very strict rules on what you can do with people's data.

      I've spent a whole day at 3 different jobs attending a Data Protection Awareness course.

      Companies are also realising that the data they collect isn't quite as valuable as they once thought. That's why the big supermarkets that lead the way on this data mining with their loyalty cards are actually reducing the rewards they offer.

      New technology brings new challenges, but to pretend we are slipping towards a 1984 state just betrays your ignorance of history which actually shows that the majority of movement is going towards increased rights.

      Magna Carta only applied to the aristocracy at the time remember, and as recently as 1918 women couldn't vote here.

    2. Re:Everyone is doing it by Dr+Max · · Score: 3, Informative

      I have only had rights taken off me over the last 10 years. If you can name a new one i've been given them i'm all ears.

      --
      Rocket Surgeon.
    3. Re:Everyone is doing it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      to pretend we are slipping towards a 1984 state just betrays your ignorance of literature. We're in Brave New World.

      Fix'd.

    4. Re:Everyone is doing it by rich_hudds · · Score: 1

      Well off the top of my head, Insurance Companies can no longer discriminate against you based on your sex.

    5. Re:Everyone is doing it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I've switched to anonymous due to this information...

      For me it has been:

      1) I can now get my birth certificate corrected to the right gender.
      2) My partner is now properly recognised as my partner and gets pension rights et al.
      3) I can't be discriminated against in the work place.
      4) I can give blood

      and so on...

    6. Re:Everyone is doing it by Dr+Max · · Score: 1

      I should clarify I'm an Australian, and our laws are still terribly lacking in that regard (and many others). Sorry to butt in on this uk story, you guys might be a shining light of freedom (we most defiantly are not).

      --
      Rocket Surgeon.
    7. Re:Everyone is doing it by Dr+Max · · Score: 1

      Is that really a right, or just a small discount?

      --
      Rocket Surgeon.
    8. Re:Everyone is doing it by genik76 · · Score: 1

      Or the Insurance Companies may not give me the discounts I would deserve to have being a member of a gender causing less accidents.

    9. Re:Everyone is doing it by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      Well off the top of my head, Insurance Companies can no longer discriminate against you based on your sex.

      Which is stupid, if you really think about it. Insurance should be based on one thing and one thing alone - the likelihood of you making a claim. Before that EU directive, that's essentially what was in place.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    10. Re:Everyone is doing it by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      you guys might be a shining light of freedom

      More like a dim bulb in a basement.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    11. Re:Everyone is doing it by rich_hudds · · Score: 2

      It's not stupid at all. Would you be happy for insurers to take into account race and sexuality? What if they found that men with big dicks were more dangerous? You want your dick measured so you can get a discount?

      It's just the same argument about shops having 'No Blacks' signs in the window, only at a slightly less obviously 'wrong' end of the spectrum.

      An insurance company can only go on personal driving history or generalities. This is just a new rule to stop them lumping all members of one group together and discriminating against them.

    12. Re:Everyone is doing it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and do it before it's too big to fail.

    13. Re:Everyone is doing it by rich_hudds · · Score: 1

      Why do you personally deserve to pay less just because you are female?

    14. Re:Everyone is doing it by FireFury03 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, as anyone working in IT in the UK can attest, we have very strict rules on what you can do with people's data.

      There are indeed very strict rules. But what good are rules if they are not enforced?

      As an example, an organisation I dealt with illegally sold my personal data to numerous "partners" (they asked me if I agreed to have my data passed to "partner companies", I declined, they did it anyway). A complaint has been filed with the ICO, and the ICO's response has been to write to the company in question telling them they shouldn't do that. That's it - the ICO are not interested in doing anything to enforce the data protection law except write sternly worded letters to people.

      Meanwhile, whilst the original company has now stopped selling off my data, the companies they sold it to have sold it. And the ones they sold it to have sold it. There is no way for me to prevent that (now widespread) data being distributed further. Futhermore, these third party companies aren't even guilty of doing anything wrong since as far as they knew, I had agreed to have this data distributed (since thats what the first company told them).

      What is needed is 2 things:
      1. Rules forbidding the sale of any personal data between companies.
      2. Actual enforcement of those rules and punishment for breaking them.

      I am much happier with the likes of Google having my data than other companies - although Google may have a lot of my data, they don't sell it, so I pretty much know where it is, and if I don't like it I can cease using Google's services and make a formal request for them to destroy my personal data (which they are required to comply with under EU law). Most other companies that I have to deal with (e.g. my insurance company, etc.) are happy to sell the data on to other people, who will further sell it on and there's no longer any way for me to know who actually has this data any more. I *always* tick the "don't sell my data" box whenever I fill in a form, and yet my personal data is out there being bought and sold because a few companies have broken the law and ignored my preference. There is largely no way to know which companies have done this.

    15. Re:Everyone is doing it by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      You clearly didn't read what I said, which was that insurance premiums should be calculated only on the likelihood of you making a claim. If you happen to be in a demographic that's less likely to make a claim, then you should pay less for insurance. What demographic that is is irrelevant.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    16. Re:Everyone is doing it by rich_hudds · · Score: 1

      I read and understood your point. You clearly missed mine. Men are more likely to make a claim, I don't dispute that.

      Doesn't follow that you should charge a particular man more.

      Re read my post, what if blacks make more claims, presumably someone knows if they do or don't but nobody suggest charging people more or less depending on their ethnicity.

    17. Re:Everyone is doing it by rich_hudds · · Score: 1

      You can always pursue it yourself ...

      How to claim compensation

    18. Re:Everyone is doing it by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      What part of 'only on the likelihood of you making a claim' is so difficult to understand here? Maybe it's the 'only' part, since you keep banging on about ethnicity and sexuality. Did you notice I never identified a particular trait in anything I said? Or did you just read my words and interpret a layer of meaning that just doesn't exist?

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    19. Re:Everyone is doing it by rich_hudds · · Score: 1
      You were arguing that not being able to discriminate on the grounds of sex was 'stupid':

      Which is stupid, if you really think about it. Insurance should be based on one thing and one thing alone - the likelihood of you making a claim. Before that EU directive, that's essentially what was in place.

      I am arguing that the EU directive is not stupid. Not sure any longer what you are now arguing about.

    20. Re:Everyone is doing it by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      I see I have to boil my argument down to the bare minimum, since you seem intent on purposefully misreading it:

      More likely to make claim => higher premiums.

      That is my entire argument, in all it's manifest complexity. Note how it cleverly weaves absolutely no discrimination whatsoever into its logic.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    21. Re:Everyone is doing it by heathen_01 · · Score: 1

      with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'.

    22. Re:Everyone is doing it by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      Rights are never given; You have them by default. Rights can only ever be restricted, or taken away entirely.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    23. Re:Everyone is doing it by rich_hudds · · Score: 1

      Before that EU directive, that's essentially what was in place.

      That is what you said.

      The directive you are implying has changed something for the worse relates to the gender of the applicant for the insurance. Any normal person would infer that you were criticising the directive and therefore approving of the discrmination the directive removed.

    24. Re:Everyone is doing it by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      Did you ever stop to think that the directive actually causes discrimination, by essentially penalising a demographic that normally attracts lower premiums? Or did you fall into the trap of 'this treats both genders equally, therefore it must be good'? I'm willing to bet it was the latter.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    25. Re:Everyone is doing it by rich_hudds · · Score: 1

      Of course I thought about it. I even referred to it in my original post.

      Society has long rehearsed this argument and if you really think you've some up with a new argument you are an idiot.

      You are either in the 'No blacks allowed' camp or you are not. I'm not.

    26. Re:Everyone is doing it by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      How is it that someone can take them away but not give them back again? Can't they recognize a new right? Why are either of these things impossible?

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    27. Re:Everyone is doing it by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      Personally, I'm in the 'don't turn every debate into a pointless racism argument' camp.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    28. Re:Everyone is doing it by advocate_one · · Score: 1

      What is needed is 2 things:
      1. Rules forbidding the sale of any personal data between companies.
      2. Actual enforcement of those rules and punishment for breaking them.

      what's needed is jailtime for the execs...it's the only way to get them to take things seriously... a fine on the company is merely seen as the cost of doing business and comes out of the customers pockets in the long run...

      Another way to make them sit up and notice would be to legally require them to pay the fines from the shareholder's dividends and their bonus pool and print the details of the judgments and fines in the company's annual reports. Also make it so that any fines are completely separately accounted and come after corporate taxes are paid.

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    29. Re:Everyone is doing it by shiftless · · Score: 1

      The real question is why is she being forced at gunpoint to buy into an insurance racket? That's the crime here, not her desire to be free of it.

    30. Re:Everyone is doing it by shiftless · · Score: 1

      More likely to make claim => higher premiums.

      I'll repeat his argument more slowly, so you can let it sink in:

      What if black people on the whole are found to be more likely to make a claim? Should we force black people at gunpoint to pay more for insurance? Because that's essentially what happens when you mandate something.

    31. Re:Everyone is doing it by shiftless · · Score: 2

      And you can go to prison if you smoke the wrong plant, or be sent to Gitmo if you say the wrong words loudly and forcefully enough or don't pay enough taxes. Yeah, you're totally free.

    32. Re:Everyone is doing it by rich_hudds · · Score: 1

      So that if she maims someone she can afford to compensate them

    33. Re:Everyone is doing it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, SOME companies in the IT sector have strict privacy policies. Then there's Google, Facebook, not to mention governments, which of course the original article was about in the first place.

    34. Re:Everyone is doing it by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      What do I have to do to stop this racism bullshit? I've explained my argument in full as a piece of pure logic, and yet you seem hell bent on twisting my argument as racist.

      Let's go over this one more time: The more likely someone is to make a claim, the higher the premium they pay. Please note the complete lack of skin colour/gender/sexuality/favourite food in that statement.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    35. Re:Everyone is doing it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sir are an idiot.

    36. Re:Everyone is doing it by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      Glad you're happy to penalise people in the name of some misguided ideal of equality. Me, I prefer to live in the real world.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    37. Re:Everyone is doing it by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      I see I have to boil my argument down to the bare minimum, since you seem intent on purposefully misreading it:

      More likely to make claim => higher premiums.

      That is my entire argument, in all it's manifest complexity. Note how it cleverly weaves absolutely no discrimination whatsoever into its logic.

      It is not clever at all, you're actually saying that basing prices on race is okay, as long as you check a box claiming to have a financial reason. I think you are exceptionally naive and ignorant of history.

    38. Re:Everyone is doing it by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      And you can go to prison if you smoke the wrong plant, or be sent to Gitmo if you say the wrong words loudly and forcefully enough or don't pay enough taxes. Yeah, you're totally free.

      Gotta call BS on the gitmo claim. Being caught armed and without a uniform in an active war zone is what it actually takes to get sent to gitmo, not "[saying] the wrong words."

      Drug laws may be stupid, and may infringe freedom, but they are not new. And taxes, well, if you don't believe in taxes you don't even believe in society. Additionally, they are not new.

    39. Re:Everyone is doing it by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      Oh great, another who willingly twists my argument beyond breaking point, again by claiming racism where none exists. Race has nothing to do with my argument, as believe it or not, skin colour/ethnicity has no significant risk differences. However, it has been repeatedly shown that there is a significant difference between the genders.

      Extending this logic, certain professions attract higher premiums, especially those that include high stress levels. Since high stress can impair judgement, workers in these jobs are statistically more likely to need to make a claim. Is it fair for a low-stress worker to pay the same premiums as a high-stress worker?

      Am I the only one who thinks it's unfair for low-risks groups to effectively subsidise high-risk groups?

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    40. Re:Everyone is doing it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course it's a good thing, so you like to discriminate based on gender do you? well step aside and stop forcing your old fashioned thinking on everyone else okay?

    41. Re:Everyone is doing it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent up, this is the problem of the century; state mandated protection money into the insurance cartel. Doesn't matter if that person who crashed into you isn't insured, he can still be sued. if you can't afford to sue them, tough shit.

    42. Re:Everyone is doing it by RaceProUK · · Score: 1
      Direct all future complaints to the Automobile Association: http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/news/european-court-decision-gender-discrimination-in-insurance.html

      It's important not to confuse equality with fairness though. The calculation of car insurance premiums based on risk is by definition fair, but is incompatible with gender equality.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    43. Re:Everyone is doing it by RaceProUK · · Score: 1
      If you disagree, direct all complaints to the Automobile Association: http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/news/european-court-decision-gender-discrimination-in-insurance.html

      It's important not to confuse equality with fairness though. The calculation of car insurance premiums based on risk is by definition fair, but is incompatible with gender equality.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    44. Re:Everyone is doing it by RaceProUK · · Score: 1
      Direct all future complaints to the Automobile Association: http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/news/european-court-decision-gender-discrimination-in-insurance.html

      It's important not to confuse equality with fairness though. The calculation of car insurance premiums based on risk is by definition fair, but is incompatible with gender equality.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    45. Re:Everyone is doing it by RaceProUK · · Score: 1
      Direct all future complaints to the Automobile Association: http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/news/european-court-decision-gender-discrimination-in-insurance.html

      It's important not to confuse equality with fairness though. The calculation of car insurance premiums based on risk is by definition fair, but is incompatible with gender equality.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    46. Re:Everyone is doing it by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      what's needed is jailtime for the execs...it's the only way to get them to take things seriously...

      Jails are expensive and ineffective and should therefore primarilly be used to prevent dangerous criminals from endangering members of the public. There are far better ways of dealing with crime than just locking everyone up.

      a fine on the company is merely seen as the cost of doing business and comes out of the customers pockets in the long run...

      Only if the fine is proportionally small compared to the company's profits. A sensible way of fining a company may be to exponentially increase the fine each time they are found to be breaking the law (the record of past infractions could be tied to the personnel on the board rather than the company itself to prevent a new "clean" company being formed every so often). It gives them a few outs for genuine mistakes, but persistent law-breaking would soon become unaffordable.

  4. Which reputation? by leromarinvit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Which "reputation as an upholder of web freedom" would that be? The one based on them censoring Wikipedia for showing an album cover? Or the one where you have to hand over encryption keys or be thrown in jail?

    --
    Proud member of the Ferengi Socialist Party.
    1. Re:Which reputation? by azalin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think they refer to their defense of privacy by having the highest number of surveillance cameras per citizen of any western nation.

    2. Re:Which reputation? by jhoegl · · Score: 1

      Fundamental difference:
      Surveillance cameras are put on public streets
      Networks were built and are managed by private corporations.
      So you have two options:
      Trust your government has your best interest at heart
      Trust a business you are giving money to has your best interest at heart as it sells your info to your government
      ...I think we are screwed!

    3. Re:Which reputation? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 2

      Oh, that old chestnut. I think you'll find that US cities have just as many CCTV cameras - possibly more - as UK cities.

      The number that's often trotted out only works if there's a CCTV camera for every 50m (yes, fifty metres, about ten car lengths) of road right down to dirt farm tracks - which is clearly not the case.

    4. Re:Which reputation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a third option: encrypt everything. Speaking of which, Slashdot should offer HTTPS.

    5. Re:Which reputation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Interesting. How do I encrypt a visit to the pharmacist, grocery store, or any other shop for that matter? Should I start wearing a balaclava? I believe that would cause more problems than it solves. How do I purchase stuff without being profiled? Maybe I should scratch all the markings of my currency bills to make sure they can't be tracked, and avoid using bank cards altogether, while stuffing said bills under my mattress? How do I encrypt my phone signal and how do I then make or receive calls from other people when the network does not support it?

      While these examples are quite extreme and borderline paranoid... do you see my point? As an individual, there is absolutely nothing you are able to do to really isolate yourself from the surveillance, monitoring and profiling madness while still functioning normally in society. This bothers people.

    6. Re:Which reputation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the chestnut works because it is based on counting all the private cctv cameras on office buildings. For instance the previous building I worked in had 4 cameras covering the outside entrances. No connectivity to any external network, no access to big brother etc. but they are counted in the "OMG YOU ARE ALL UNDER SURVEILLANCE" mentality. Then there are the traffic flow cameras on motorways etc. which are used to alert motorists and emergency services to issues on the roads "OMG!!!"

    7. Re:Which reputation? by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      The one based on them censoring Wikipedia for showing an album cover?

      IIRC, that filter is maintained by a private company.

      The UK government loves to outsource - when it inevitably goes wrong, they can just say 'wasn't us!'

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    8. Re:Which reputation? by leromarinvit · · Score: 1

      The UK government loves to outsource - when it inevitably goes wrong, they can just say 'wasn't us!'

      But they are still the ones who made the laws requiring a filter to be present, or at least coerced the ISPs to install one. If I outsource an assassination to a hitman, does that mean I can somehow disclaim responsibility?

      --
      Proud member of the Ferengi Socialist Party.
    9. Re:Which reputation? by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      Only for ISPs that provide services to government agencies and public bodies. There's no requirement that it's applied to private consumer connections, although the majority of ISPs have voluntarily implemented the filter service (provided by the Internet Watch Foundation).

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    10. Re:Which reputation? by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      The one based on them censoring Wikipedia for showing an album cover?

      IIRC, that filter is maintained by a private company.

      The UK government loves to outsource - when it inevitably goes wrong, they can just say 'wasn't us!'

      The IWF list is a privately maintained list of censored sites which is voluntarilly(*) used by ISPs and content filtering companies. They are funded by donations(+) from these companies.

      (*) "Voluntarilly" means "often forcibly required by the government". For example, until BECTA was dissolved, companies wanting to sell content filtering systems to schools were required to use the IWF list.
      (+) By "donations", I mean companies are required to "donate" somewhere from £1000 - £40000 per year if they want access to the IWF list (which contains about 100 URIs). For comparison, commercial URI lists for filtering run to millions of categorised URLs for a fraction of this price.

      Besides the above issues, there is no oversight as to what the IWF does - they are the sole decision makers in whether a site gets blocked or not.

      Frankly, if they were serious about stopping kiddy-porn they would provide a free-to-use API through which anyone could quickly query whether a URI is on the list rather than mandating that anyone with an interest in filtering this content must pay them thousands of pounds for the privalidge. As far as I can see, the whole thing is an exercise in corruption.

    11. Re:Which reputation? by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      That's basically a longer version of what i put here: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3100137&cid=41258935

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    12. Re:Which reputation? by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

      I dunno, when I was in London there were a LOT more than one every 50m. I noticed large clusters on nearly every street corner, plus the ones on the underground...never saw anything like it in NYC -- sure, there's a fair bit of private ones scattered about, but that's not the same thing. As far as city/police owned cameras, you'll maybe find one or two on high traffic street corners. Never seen even a single cluster like the ones that were so common in London...

  5. Run a Tor relay. by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Even if you're not happy running an exit node, you can help speed up the Tor network by running a relay. All traffic through a relay is encrypted and kept within the Tor network, so you remain unidentifiable. It also helps obscure when you yourself are using Tor.

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    1. Re:Run a Tor relay. by coofercat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So here's a serious question...

      Assuming this tracking law gets in (which it seems it will eventually, as this isn't the first try for such a thing), then would it actually be a good time for everyone (inside the UK and International) to rent a virtual server some place (in the UK) and run an honest-to-goodness Tor exit node?

      For us Brits, there's a risk of prosecution (although it's unclear to what extent). I'm sure "it's a Tor node, it's entirely public, and I personally didn't actually download all that stuff" might be enough defence to avoid life-changing legal action. IANAL, and I really have no clue what I'm talking about here.

      However, for International folks, the worst than can really happen is that they shut down your VPS. You can then just go rent another one and be up and running in minutes.

      Assuming this vaguely makes sense (particularly for non-UK residents), then we could conceivably have a "flood" of Tor-originated traffic to all manner of questionable web content flowing through our Royal pipework and into the ISP data logs, and into the Great Decentralised Central Government Database of Everything. I'm probably barking up the wrong dog here, but it seems interesting none the less.

    2. Re:Run a Tor relay. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It also helps obscure when you yourself are using Tor.

      Sigh...

      If your computer send out more tor traffic than the amount that enters it, it is proof that you are using tor yourself.

      If you generate as much traffic yourself as traffic you get as a reply (e.g. if your HTTP GET request to YouTube is a few hundred MB large), and therefore end up at zero net traffic caused by your computer, then one can still check the timing of every single packet to determine whether it was caused by a request in another node or if it was caused by you.

      Traffic analysis is not that difficult. Really.

  6. Re:What some people don't realise by kraut · · Score: 2

    There are also a large number of Irish people, a significant fraction of which used to sympathise with the the IRA..... .and we managed to resolve that issue without panopticon surveillance and giving up our human rights.

    --
    no taxation without representation!
  7. Re:What some people don't realise by ByronHope · · Score: 1

    Timothy McVeigh and Anders Behring Breivik, both terrorists and both Christians, so by your "logic" we should watch Christians as well.

  8. Re:What some people don't realise by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    Timothy McVeigh and Anders Behring Breivik, both terrorists and both Christians, so by your "logic" we should watch Christians as well.

    .... and what percentage of Christians though that their actions were fully justified? If you can show that a reasonable number do then obviously the Christians should be monitored too, but I doubt if this is the case.

  9. wow - Racist much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Muzzies" - Seriously? At the very least, you need to cite reliable sources if you are going to post racist inflammatory comments.

  10. Re:What some people don't realise by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The only significant terrorist attacks in the UK have been carried out by white Christians, generally Irish. Since these attacks were largely funded by US Republicans eager to help "the folks back home", maybe we should be watching Americans too, since they think it's okay to commit terrorist acts.

    We've never had any bother from the Muslims here, at all.

  11. Re:What some people don't realise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you read what he wrote or did political correctness fry your brain? Both of your examples had nowhere near the level of sympathy he quotes, if any. Now, we may discuss whether his statistics are valid, but your answer completely misses the point.

  12. Re:What some people don't realise by Chrisq · · Score: 0

    There are also a large number of Irish people, a significant fraction of which used to sympathise with the the IRA..... .and we managed to resolve that issue without panopticon surveillance and giving up our human rights.

    That's a good point. However the difference is that ultimately their aims were to unite Ireland. Now I know that it is a complex issue, with most people in Northern Ireland not wanting to be reunited - but ultimately the worst that could happen is that Northern Ireland could be lost to the UK. However the stated aim of Islam, as many clerics pronounce, is complete world-wide subjugation of non-Muslims, with imposition of Sharia Law. Under Sharia you won;t be able to testify in court against a Muslim - as in Pakistan if the Muzzies kidnap and rape your daughter her testimony or yours will not count against a straight "I didn't do it" from the lying Muzzie. Also you will be subject to punitive tax, not allowed to express your views open, and if you have any "disagreements" with Muzzies they will just accuse you of blasphemy and you will be killed (obviously not allowed to contradict his claim). This is what happens weekly in Pakistan, Iran, and many other Muzzie states. There is much more to lose from the Muzzie threat than the IRA.

  13. Social networks by Alioth · · Score: 2

    Good luck with logging social network use. Facebook and Twitter at least seem to use https by default for me. Unless ISPs can force people to download trusted certificates for a proxy that decrypts, logs, then re-encrypts their facebook usage, they won't be seeing much.

    Incidentally, I run my own mail server. I relay my mail through it using TLS, and it too uses opportunistic encryption when contacting other SMTP servers. My ISP sees nothing but encrypted data going past. Many public SMTP servers now are supporting opportunistic encryption and supports 256 bit encryption (in fact, if you want to pass a PCI-DSS ASV scan, then if your mail server supports encryption it must disable all weak ciphers).

    (Disclaimer: I don't live in the UK, but I do live in a British crown territory - whether a similar law is passed here is not guaranteed, for example we don't have anything like the RIP Act)

    1. Re:Social networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So instead of the UK being able to log and monitor your communications with friends, you prefer to leave that job to Facebook and Twitter, whose primary motive is the profits of shareholders, and which are based in the USA who can demand these logs at whim, and who have good relations with the UK.

      Yeah that makes sense.

    2. Re:Social networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From what I can gather, the plan is for the government to effectively perform a man-in-the-middle attack on all encrypted traffic, they will resign and re-encrypt the traffic. Unfortunately SSL probably won't help you here.

      http://www.channel4.com/news/black-boxes-to-monitor-all-internet-and-phone-data

    3. Re:Social networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all they need to do is use an intercept cert if they want to read HTTPS. And yes they passed a law that makes that legal a few months ago.

    4. Re:Social networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good luck with logging social network use. Facebook and Twitter at least seem to use https by default for me. Unless ISPs can force people to download trusted certificates for a proxy that decrypts, logs, then re-encrypts their facebook usage, they won't be seeing much.

      You should read some of the work that Chris Soghoian and Moxie Marlinspike have done. There are companies like Packet Forensics of Tempe, AZ that sell equipment designed to intercept & decrypt SSL/TLS/https traffic, abusing weaknesses in the SSL/TLS trust models implemented in most systems (e.g., the fact that systems don't notice when the CA or certificate chain for facebook.com suddenly changes [assuming facebook doesn't colo servers in the UK where UK LEOs can just get at what's on the server]). Your browsers already trust dozens of CA keys; all the UK LEOs need to do is buy gear from Packet Forensics and pick a trusted CA whose private key they can obtain, or whom they can force into issuing an intermediate CA cert. They can then MITM and decrypt any https/SSL/TLS you use.

  14. when TBL said that "this is for everyone"... by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 0

    ...surely he was intelligent enough to know from history that all total information awareness campaigns are ultimately used to oppress the people who are supposed to be empowered by information.

    And when he allowed half a dozen big businesses to essentially take over and steer W3C in their image, surely he knew that any altruistic or academic value in W3C would be diminished.

    Alas, the man is saying, "I've set something up for you. I've allowed you to take it over. But it concerns me." Well, it should concern you, TBL. But, next time you give a knife to a serial killer, don't expect him to use it to cook you a delicious meal.

  15. Plans to monitor individuals' use of the internet? by dgharmon · · Score: 2

    "According to British daily The Telegraph, Sir Tim Berners-Lee has warned that plans to monitor individuals' use of the internet would result in Britain losing its reputation as an upholder of web freedom."

    I assumed there was someone monitoring my use of the Internet, which is why I've always been cautious, at least with my home usage ...

    --
    AccountKiller
  16. Re:What some people don't realise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well thats somewhat true, but there was some weakening of the rule of law in reaction to the IRA: they removed your right to remain silent when questioned by the police. (You can still remain silent but they can hold it against you as if it were some kind of admission of guilt to refuse to speak to the police. It is in fact universally recommended by legal qualified people to NOT speak to the police without legal advice. So this is a ridiculous change to the law.)

    And sad that it may have been on the odd occasion for the british police to be unable to prosecute some suspected IRA member, the fact that they lacked the evidence and the suspected IRA member refused to discuss anything is just TOUGH LUCK and the normal implication of rule of law. You have to evidence to convict people! There is a presumption of innocence.

    And for the record I am against violence whether conducted by IRA, Loyalist paramilitary groups, British Police and military in Ireland. It is generally understood of any violent conflict that violence breeds violence, and sometimes police, military and government get aggressive or below the belt and in engage in complicity with one or the other side of a terrorist dispute. eg claims of british government complicity with loyalist terrorist acts in Ireland.

  17. Sweden beat UK :D by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sweden already does this, we finally beat uk in being a police state!

  18. Re:What some people don't realise by Chrisq · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We've never had any bother from the Muslims here, at all.

    Apart from the 77 bombings, the Glasgow Airport attack, the Exetrer bomb attack, shoe bomber and dozens of failed attempts and arrests.

  19. *MY* data isn't, except by Govt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There may be lots of companies TRYING to gather data, but that doesn't mean they get anymore than newbies give them. My ISP cycles IP numbers to prevent IP address tracking, and of course I turn off cookies and flash local storage. I don't use Facebook or any other service that datamines private info, and I ask friends and family to never post about me if they insists on using FB.

    On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I'm monitored to prevent me saying things about the military here in ..., you know what, lets not go there.

    That's the effect of monitoring, it makes you less free to speak out about the police or military state you live in. UK is definitely a police state, this policy is driven by the police, and Theresa May, well she's just the current scared politicians being driven by the need to keep the police happy.

    The last one, Jacqui Smith even started out with a central big database of all the transactions to be searched by the secret police at will. Then it morphed into a distributed database, still a database, held by the ISPs, that could be remotely queried. She thought that simply moving the database somehow stopped it being a database.

    I wonder if the secret police will want VoIP recorded next, they're already reputed to be using voice recognition over mobile phones to perform mass surveillance the population. You know what, I was going to look up the link, but I didn't fancy typing [gchq voice surveillance] into Google lest it flags me as suspicious.

    Lots of rozzers, all thinking they're making Britain better, when actually they are the biggest threat to freedom the UK faces now.

  20. Big Brother by CuteSteveJobs · · Score: 2

    The Australian Government is doing the same thing:

    http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/09/04/1825205/australian-attorney-general-pushes-ahead-with-govt-web-snooping

    For the first time in history people can communicate freely en masse and it scares them.

  21. +1 Insightful by TuringTest · · Score: 1

    Where are mod points when you need them?

    --
    Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
    1. Re:+1 Insightful by toriver · · Score: 1

      In the hands of a fascist government.

  22. rethink the problem, not the symptom. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We have to accept reality. Data retention is a fact. Laws are passed just for form. Google, Facebook, Skype, ISP's, etc, etc, etc are all in the business of collecting data on a much vaster scale than any law proposes.

    It's not about stopping laws. It's about creating technology that makes it impossible to snoop.

    Tor is a good start, and i recommend it, but Google and Facebook for example block you from opening accounts over TOR (because your IP constantly changes) if Javasript is not on. They want to know who you are.... Wether for themselves or because of higher powers, I do not know.

    The movement to stop laws is futile. It will happen sooner or later. Our energy needs to go into rethinking how our technology should work. I no longer have a Facebook account, I do not Skype, use DuckDuckGo and closed my Gmail account. Until solutions come along, this is the only way. If everyone does the same it will be over very quickly. Money is the only pressure point that works. All it takes is enough people.

    (And for those banking on HTTPS; this is no longer secure if your snooper has control of the infrastructure. )

  23. Hello? This is the EU, not the UK by Onymous+Hero · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The source of this junk law is the European Union. It just so happens that the UK has implemented this directive. Others will follow suit if they haven't already!

    "On 15 March 2006 the European Union adopted the Data Retention Directive, on "the retention of data generated or processed in connection with the provision of publicly available electronic communications services or of public communications networks and amending Directive 2002/58/EC".[1][2] The Directive requires Member States to ensure that communications providers retain, for a period of between 6 months and 2 years, necessary data as specified in the Directive"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retention#European_Union

    1. Re:Hello? This is the EU, not the UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      It couldn't be that national governments get their European counterparts to push through unpopular directives?
      Or that Britain doesn't have a Veto.

      You know you would think people would remember voting in Conservative MEP's and they are not aliens but members of the same political party that also has members in the national government.
        It wasn't Microsoft attacking Linux it was SCO much easier to attack the sock puppet.
      It's not the record labels making disproportionate attacks it's the RIAA.

      It's not so surprising that this legislation is getting pushed through, with the current measures this government are pushing through who is to say a terminal cancer patient won't decide to take out David Cameron for the good of the country. And wouldn't I be in trouble for saying this if I still lived in the UK. There are still patriots around who believe in British fair play, that believe it is Right to protect the weak and defenceless and who will sacrifice their lives in defence of their country and it's values. These are not the kind of people who stand and gawk when action needs to be taken. At some point someone is going to say it's time to fight back.

      People are angry and disappointed, disappointed that the LibDems seem to have failed to moderate the worst excesses of Tory Policy.

      Social media is a big thing now, even thou most of it is trite, it is possible for ordinary people to band together and speak with one voice. There are other voices to be heard other than the likes of Rupert Murdoch. It won't be the Sun that won it at the next general election.

    2. Re:Hello? This is the EU, not the UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It couldn't be that national governments get their European counterparts to push through unpopular directives?

      That's exactly what happens.

      EU legislation is proposed by the unelected EU Commission, which is basically the representative of the national governments in Europe.

      This particular stupid law was pushed through against a fair bit of opposition after very hard lobbying by the British government under Tony Blair. In opposition, the Tories were completely opposed. Now they're in power they're all for it. Wankers the lot of them.

  24. Data loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How long after collecting this data will some be found on a USB stick or laptop in the back of a taxi, like so much of our personal data in the UK.

  25. Re:What some people don't realise by Gordonjcp · · Score: 3, Funny

    The Glasgow airport "attack" wasn't terrorism, it was two drunk Asian kids crashing a car. It happens all the time in Renfrew, it's a rough area.

  26. Re:What some people don't realise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Didn't Breivik's defense bring people into court to specifically state that they sympathized with his beliefs and actions in order to prove he was not insane? Hell, I bet if you were honest, you would say that you sympathize with his actions (without condoning them). I bet you've used much of the same language as he used in his horrible little manifesto. Right?

    Singling out a particular segment of society for hatred and persecution, labelled only by their religion, is precisely what happened in Germany in the 1930's. Godwin be damned -- you are a hateful, bigoted, disgusting thug.

  27. Re:What some people don't realise by ByronHope · · Score: 1

    Only takes one...

  28. Re:What some people don't realise by Chrisq · · Score: 2

    The Glasgow airport "attack" wasn't terrorism, it was two drunk Asian kids crashing a car. It happens all the time in Renfrew, it's a rough area.

    I suppose they all plant car bombs in London before-hand, fill their cars with petrol and propane tanks, and that if they survive are Jailed for life for planned mass murder?

  29. Re:What some people don't realise by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    Hell, I bet if you were honest, you would say that you sympathize with his actions (without condoning them).

    Don't be ridiculous, for one thing I cannot comprehend why he attacked a labour party camp, apparently all non-Muslims. Secondly even if he had attacked Muslims, this would be descending to their level. As I said, many Muslims disobey the Qur'an and Hadith by living peacefully with non-Muslims and treating them as equal. The security services should be ruthless in dealing with those supporting terror, people certainly shouldn't attack a mass group for the actions and belief of 6% of them.

  30. What? by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1

    Benign world controllers dealing with dissent by setting up island colonies where highly intelligent people can go and build their own societies, while running a strict hierarchical society which manages to keep almost all its citizens healthy and happy? I wish! My feeling at the end of reading BNW for the first time was "Helmholtz Watson, lucky bugger. How do we make this happen?".

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  31. Re:What some people don't realise by slashmojo · · Score: 2

    The only significant terrorist attacks in the UK have been carried out by white Christians .. We've never had any bother from the Muslims here, at all.

    Talk about selective memory.. have you missed the last 10 years or so?

    Does this not count as significant in your books?!
    "The 7 July 2005 London bombings conducted by four separate Islamist extremist suicide bombers, killing 56 people and injuring 700."

  32. Re:Plans to monitor individuals' use of the intern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I kind of think if "they" want to fuck you over it doesn't matter how youbehave they'll find some way to screw you so it's not always worth the hassle of hiding everything you do, especially as hiding everything could look extremely suspicious even if you're hiding for the sake of hiding.

    My captcha word seems somewhat appropriate: cohort

  33. We need new protocols to defeat the govts by cheekyboy · · Score: 1

    Maybe a HTTP over BitTorrent maybe.

    Something that is not tcp, and encrypted (not just byte for byte ,but with -bogus bytes- mixed in to round up the size of traffic, so all files under 128 bytes will be all the same size, 128 bytes so LEOs cannot even use file sizes to narrow down your access).

    Something that talks to many servers to get the content.

    This would require a whole new server design, or proxy wrapper to existing http servers, but yeah bittorrent http would work.

    A) bittorrent server can server all the http files
    B) your browser can re-server cached content to other browsers in your LAN or ISP subnet, or B class.

    Anyone?

    Start coding, make it truly difficult and so expensive for the govt, it would cost billions to achieve.

    --
    Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
    1. Re:We need new protocols to defeat the govts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your forget that the government most likely has a working quantum computer and is probably trying to build more to deal with encryption. The NSA is very adapt at breaking any encryption given enough processing power.

    2. Re:We need new protocols to defeat the govts by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

      Sounds kinda like Freenet. Or I2P. Or FCON. Or even Tor at this point. Except those are far more secure than BitTorrent.

    3. Re:We need new protocols to defeat the govts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's this nonsense about quantum computers defeating encryption? In the unlikely event they could crack the most powerful algorithms we have now, we would just develop even more powerful ones.

  34. Re:What some people don't realise by Gordonjcp · · Score: 2

    Oh that? Hardly significant. Give me a shout when they get to multiple thousands, like the American-funded Irish terrorists.

  35. Re:What some people don't realise by Goth+Biker+Babe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What *you* have to realise that apart from the 77 bombings which were reasonably effective they were all pretty pitiful. The IRA terrorists really knew how to do terrorism.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Manchester_bombing
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyde_Park_and_Regent's_Park_bombings
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Docklands_bombing

    But even those were nothing. You have to remember that our grandparents and parents lived through this. Nothing since has been comparable in anyway.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz

    The whole point of terrorism is to instil terror. *NOT* to kill people. That's a side effect. While you react to them they're winning. So don't react. As Ben Franklin said, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

  36. Will you take a banker's note? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    :-)

  37. When it came to the MP's information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    When the records (public records by the way) of the expense claims by MPs were FORCIBLY revealed, even in that case they redacted the address of second homes owned by the MPs.

    They cited that this information would lead to a greater need for security at these addresses.

    Problem:this information is publicly available too, in the electoral register (which even if you're not published, merely means you have to go to the local council to find the information).

    When it comes to THEIR information, even if it's ENTIRELY public information, they refuse.

  38. Re:What some people don't realise by Psychotria · · Score: 1

    Hell, I bet if you were honest, you would say that you sympathize with his actions (without condoning them).

    Don't be ridiculous, for one thing I cannot comprehend why he attacked a labour party camp, apparently all non-Muslims. Secondly even if he had attacked Muslims, this would be descending to their level. As I said, many Muslims disobey the Qur'an and Hadith by living peacefully with non-Muslims and treating them as equal. The security services should be ruthless in dealing with those supporting terror, people certainly shouldn't attack a mass group for the actions and belief of 6% of them.

    Emphasis mine. And, you shouldn't attack a group of people for any percentage of them doing something you object to. Apart from being racist you're willingly giving up YOUR rights because of a false belief that because x% of people involved with religion/belief y that censorship and snooping is fine. You are wrong.

  39. Re:What some people don't realise by FrangoAssado · · Score: 1

    As I said, many Muslims disobey the Qur'an and Hadith by living peacefully with non-Muslims and treating them as equal.

    How big of you to point out that not all Muslims are evil, and that the ones who reject their own religion can live in the civilized world.

    The thing is, everyone picks and chooses from their sacred books. The Christians, for example, don't exactly follow these rules:

    For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. - Exodus 35:2

    For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him. - Leviticus 20:9

    (I could cite more, these are just the shortest ones).

  40. Re:What some people don't realise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And also don't steal other people's land and try to take over. The chances are they won't appreciate it.

  41. Re:What some people don't realise by blackest_k · · Score: 1

    Breivik believes himself to be a patriot and his actions were in defence of his country.
    It seems he hasn't managed to qualify as a madman either.

    You see that is part of the problem. If we take the case of an earlier poster talking about the Muslim population in being a threat to England. Arguably that same poster might just see it as his patriotic duty to defend his country against the Muslim threat. Maybe he could become Englands Breivik. How do we know? Chances are someone liable to take action will listen to argument post argument and have the ego to believe that they should be the one to do something about it. The smart ones may not comment at all but just read, The really smart ones will ignore this topic completely.

    So really if you believe watching everybody will give advance warning of an attack then that pretty much is what you are going to do. What is the alternative?

  42. Reminds Me To Use TOR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Onion Router. Yes, probably not perfect, but better than nothing. Also, the Commercial SIGINT Operations are cut out of the game. Yes, they do exist.

  43. Internet Freedom - piffle by Martin+S. · · Score: 1

    The current government do not care about Internet Freedom.

    What they do care about is Competitiveness .

  44. Snooping? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Come on. Snooping? We are talking about the organization holding the special right to initiate physical force against you as a business model.

    Snooping is what your nosy neighbor does. When "snooping" is conducted by government, it is called oppression. Don't give them the benefit of the doubt.

  45. Re:What some people don't realise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wow. Your source of information is 8 years old. Way to quote a random survey that backs up your point.

  46. Re:What some people don't realise by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    You can still remain silent but they can hold it against you as if it were some kind of admission of guilt to refuse to speak to the police.

    (possibly paraphrasing) "You have the right to remain silent, but it may harm your defence if you fail to mention now something which you later rely on in court."

    So staying silent itself shouldn't be held against you - suddenly remembering an alibi six months down the line might, though.

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  47. Re:What some people don't realise by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    The Glasgow airport "attack" wasn't terrorism, it was two drunk Asian kids crashing a car loaded with propane canisters. It happens all the time in Renfrew, it's a rough area.

    FTFY. Maybe you were trying to be funny, but, eh...

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  48. 2 words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Narus Insight

  49. Re:What some people don't realise by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

    For it to be "terrorism", it would have to be in some way terrifying. It wasn't.

  50. Re:What some people don't realise by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    And, you shouldn't attack a group of people for any percentage of them doing something you object to.

    So you're a 100% pacifist as far as war is concerned then.

  51. Re:What some people don't realise by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    Wow. Your source of information is 8 years old. Way to quote a random survey that backs up your point.

    Taken shortly after the attack, so people knew exactly what they were answering to.

  52. Re:What some people don't realise by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    And, you shouldn't attack a group of people for any percentage of them doing something you object to.

    So you're a 100% pacifist as far as war is concerned then.

    On reflection this is a simplistic answer. War where a non-conscripted army, or where there is conscription with conscientious objection allowed, is different from attacking people who are not at war. I think I agree with you about not attacking the group whatever percentage - though in some extreme hypothetical cases I might go the other way (like what if there were 100 terrorists who would go free in a plane, and one man who may or may not support them. If you could stop it by shooting it down would you?). Even here it would be a difficult thing for me to do - my beliefs and way of life all support peace, which is why I hate Islam and its teachings.

  53. Re:What some people don't realise by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

    The 77 bomings were marginally effective. They killed people, but not very many (sucks for those people and their relatives, bit it's small compared to almost anything else) and certainly less than the IRA could muster. It also killed off the few compentent ones.

    The other attacks proved utterly worthless. At best, the terrorists managed to hurt themselves, or get beaten up by passengers (with some considerable relish, I might add).

    Otherwise, they served to demonstrate that London has truly effective traffic wardens: you put as car bomb in a no parking zone, then it will get towed waway ASAP.

    Oh yeah and they managed to kill a man by the name of Jean Charles De Menizes.

    Oh no wait, that was the police. Then they lied about it.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  54. Re:What some people don't realise by Dupple · · Score: 1
    --
    Watch those corners
  55. Way to go, Tim. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's see, invent a distributed, decentralized, (relatively, for the time) uncensorable content publishing system with no embedded copyright or payment mechanisms, or even hooks, and sell it to consumption-economy oriented governments, banks, brokerages, trillion-dollar IP cartels and so forth as the way of the future, then, after the inevitable wrong-headed, after-the-fact, procrustean protection tech wars, and socially, culturally, and sovereignty destroying attempts at larcenous and corrupting fiat policing have not perfomed as expected, especially not for the users, bleat about loss of freedom and ask for more intervention by MP's.

    This could be a fit subject for irony, but I'm going to be blunt. Berners-Lee is being incredibly stupid. Or disengenious. Tell me which. What next, Sir Tim, Freedom Police?

    1. Re:Way to go, Tim. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sigh, yes, disengenuous, too.

  56. Vote the bastards out by Stan92057 · · Score: 1

    Vote the bastards out, power to the people!!!

    --
    Jack of all trades,master of none
  57. Re:What some people don't realise by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    For it to be "terrorism", it would have to be in some way terrifying. It wasn't.

    Attempted terrorism, if you must - and even if you mustn't, that's still only your opinion. I'm sure plenty of people were terrified at the time.

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  58. Re:What some people don't realise by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    For it to be "terrorism", it would have to be in some way terrifying. It wasn't.

    Attempted terrorism, if you must - and even if you mustn't, that's still only your opinion. I'm sure plenty of people were terrified at the time.

    A burning car full of propane gas canisters crashing through the glass doors of a public building would do it for me.

  59. Shows the opposite, actually by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1
    Very, very few British MPs have to resign because of their goings-on, as the GP article reveals. It is almost always the associated crime that does them in. In the Profumo case (not mentioned) Profumo's mistake was to lie to Parliament. If he'd said "OK I was bonking Christine Keeler. Here's a picture. No, I didn't discuss secrets. Would you be thinking about the Navy budget, if you were shagging someone like that?" the Cabinet would have said "Ooh, yes, see what you mean old boy, lie low for a bit and we'll fix it." Thorpe got into trouble because he (allegedly) tried on some threatening blackmail. But, until Rupert Merdreck (Australian/American) came along, the Press used to leave alone MPs who weren't hypocritical or just obnoxious.

    How unlike, how very unlike, how the Republicans treated Clinton. Now that was a shameful episode.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  60. UK Labour pushed this through the EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No sir, it was UK Labour party that pushed for the law in the first place when they held the EU Presidency.

    There was a big protest back in 2005 over this, since it had more to do with Blair tongue in Bush's rear than any other purpose.

    http://www.edri.org/edrigram/number3.14/retention

    "His plan to push through data retention during the UK presidency of the European Council, no matter in what pillar, met with great protest. The Social-Democrats, the Greens and the Liberals all referred to the legal advices recommending the issue should be dealt with in the first pillar, i.e. on a directive proposal from the European Commission and with full co-decision from the European Parliament. The liberal rapporteur on data retention, Alexander Alvaro, perhaps used the strongest words when he said "the LIBE Committee was not to be pushed into blind obedience" by the UK. "

  61. Underpaid and unloved by Kupfernigk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's hardly worth being a technical specialist in the British secret world. The real reason that Thatcher wanted Spycatcher banned was because it revealed just how badly technical experts were treated in comparison with the Old Etonians, and might have dampened recruitment. Here's a hint: If you are any good, you can easily earn more teaching maths in a UK secondary school than you can being a codebreaker for the Secret Services. No, I can't prove it, but I have good reason to believe it.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  62. No longer true, I think by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1
    Anecdotal, but over the last 10 years the number of women I see driving far too fast, carelessly, talking on mobile phones and running red lights is now up there with the men. And young women seem to be the worst; they drive just as fast as the male idiots, but with less attention to the road.

    I suspect the insurance companies didn't argue the toss with the EU because the statistics were trending towards equality anyway.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  63. Re:What some people don't realise by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

    Most people at the time seemed to be thinking "aw, there's some shit going on outside, let's leave via the international arrivals hall, it's closer to the car park anyway". I'm sure *some* people were freaking out, but most people weren't.

  64. Source was UK Presidency of the EU in 2005 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The UK drove it through when they held the EU Presidency in 2005, Tony Blair claimed it was needed to counter terrorism and that the Human Rights legislation needed to be reduced.

    http://www.edri.org/edrigram/number3.18/attackonhumanrights

    Naturally, since they held the EU Presidency, they ensured only pro-surveillance people were allowed to debates:

    "Given the attitude of the UK presidency, it is no surprise that civil rights advocates are not invited in Newcastle. They were only given a chance to respond to a consultation organised in September last year by the European Commission. European Digital Rights and Privacy International used this occasion to produce a thorough legal analysis. "

  65. Especially British Subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Britain's government wants to know *EVERYTHING* that all it's subjects do at all times, *EVERYTHING* that they say, write or otherwise communicate to anyone else, and *EVERYWHERE* they travel... and to keep detailed permanent records of all this data forever.

    The British government was very smart to get guns out of the hands of its subjects and to foster and foment a public mentality that only govt should have guns, lest some day the subjects get tired of being subjects and desire to be citizens instead.

  66. Re:What some people don't realise by ciderbrew · · Score: 1

    The police are not interested in the truth they are only interested in the conviction.

  67. Re:What some people don't realise by toriver · · Score: 1

    Not to mention the Catholics and their literal interpretation of "let the children come unto me"...

  68. UK Upholder of Web Freedom. by CanEHdian · · Score: 1

    There are only few Upholders of Web Freedom in the UK. Sir Tim Berners-Lee OM, KBE, FRS, FREng, FRSA isn't one of them, since he's in Mass., USA. The Pirate Party UK is definitely one of them. With enough support it can also actually do something about it, instead of just being a forum of discontent, while tonight we'll just watch footy on the telly with a pint of ale in our hand.

    --
    When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
  69. Re:What some people don't realise by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    And I say it's the other way around. Let the battle of the unfounded assertions commence!

    Seems to me that uncovering the truth would usually be the quickest route to a conviction, anyway.

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  70. Re:What some people don't realise by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 2

    What does this have to do with anything? Because you believe there are terrorists that means we should spy on everyone?

    Same justification for the TSA. I'd say freedom is far more important than safety, and anyone who would give it up is extraordinarily credulous.

    --
    Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
  71. Re:What some people don't realise by shiftless · · Score: 1

    So you're a 100% pacifist as far as war is concerned then.

    No dumbass. He's 100% smart, because he's not stupid enough to allow the State to drag him into yet another War On Some Group of People for Some Dumb Ass Reason That Won't Matter in 30 Years After We've Senselessly Blown Each Other To Kingdom Come.

    Grow a fucking brain.

  72. Re:What some people don't realise by Patch86 · · Score: 1

    Probably a depressingly large number. There are plenty of right wing extremist groups in the UK (BNP, NF, EDL, etc.), and I'm sure in the rest of the world, who might not have been entirely comfortable with a massacre of children at a summer camp, but sympathise with his motives. They invariably use their "Christian" identity as one of their defining features.

    They'll still be only a tiny fraction of Christians as a whole, but on a simple count are a significant number people.

  73. Killing people by phorm · · Score: 1

    I'd say that a high death-toll is pretty terrifying, but it's somewhat in relation to the chance of one (or one's relations/friends/etc) being potential victims of a future attack.

    There's a combination of visibility and impact
    More people harmed = likely more of impact and visibility
    Harmed in a cruel/unusual way = Higher visibility (see the recent killings in France)

    People die due to violence in big cities all the time. After reading about it in the news you become desensitized to reading about gang violence and bystander harm, etc if it's not in their neighbourhood. However, take a few higher-profile cases like the Canadian greyhound killer or the "bath-salts" attacks, the gruesomeness and randomness makes it a lot more frightening.

    Same effect if a lot of people die at once, particularly in a violent/gruesome way.

    Dying is scary to most people. A lot of people dying gets attention. Or to quote a similar way of thinking in Firefly:

    Mal: [so only Jayne hears him] Now, you only gotta scare 'im.
    Jayne: Pain is scary.

    Pain is scary. Death is (generally) scary. Lots of death is more scary. Lots of gruesome death is really scary, but it also increases the risk of retaliation or alienation of those that support the terrorists. The IRA wouldn't have gotten much support for targeting large amount of children, etc. Religious battles sometimes get away with this more because they play the "godless heathen" card, but even that doesn't work beyond a certain level (and note I say religious, as *MANY* religions have been involved in atrocities)

  74. More ignorance of the law... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > like in the US

    More ignorance of the law. The local sheriff around here (in the US) does not have access to my web browsing habits, on demand, at his work, without a warrant.

  75. Upholders of web freedom.? by dgharmon · · Score: 1

    "According to British daily The Telegraph, Sir Tim Berners-Lee has warned that plans to monitor individuals' use of the internet would result in Britain losing its reputation as an upholder of web freedom .. The draft bill extends the type of data that internet service providers must store for at least 12 months
    -------

    Q: How's your driving record?

    "Clean. Real clean. (pause, thin smile) As clean as my conscience", Travis Bickle

    --
    AccountKiller
  76. No, run a Tor BRIDGE. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Even if you're not happy running an exit node, you can help speed up the Tor network by running a relay. All traffic through a relay is encrypted and kept within the Tor network, so you remain unidentifiable. It also helps obscure when you yourself are using Tor."

    And your IP is published in the clear as a relay for anyone's view at certain Tor status pages. Enjoy the possible attacks.

    The better suggestion is to run a Tor Bridge, where your IP may be released to certain people for a limited time, but not published and possibly archived on various Tor status pages.

  77. Re:What some people don't realise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is the alternative?

    Do nothing and don't violate people's freedoms.