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Arma III Developers Arrested In Greece For 'Spying'
An anonymous reader writes "Kotaku reports that two employees of Bohemia Interactive have been arrested while on a photo-tour of the Greek island of Limnos, on charges of spying. The developers were taking reference photos for the upcoming military simulation game Arma III, which is to feature Limnos as it's primary setting, when they were arrested (Google translation of Greek original)."
There have been similar incidents in the past in Greece involving people taking photos of military aircraft, air bases etc. It's illegal in Greece to photograph military property, and if you do so arrest is likely. With Arma being a military game, my guess is these guys were doing exactly this, and should have known better.
Really? Every Real Estate Developer does the same thing in Greece, so that they can deduct the vacation from their taxes.
Usually they also invite local people to dinner to ask them how they like their own houses, then they can also deduct the restaurants.
That's where the money comes from, Greeks, from us taxpayers!
But I guess the military has a bit of a paranoiac streak everywhere.
If it was in the US, I would say the Patriot Act. There is a Patriotikoú Nómou in Greece?
Grey's Law: Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
You leave out the part where the 'scenery' they were taking pictures of happened to be a military installation. No granted, I think espionage charges for such a thing are more than a little ridiculous (and I doubt that is what they'll actually be charged for) but just about every nation on the planet has laws against photographing their military bases.
Busting the developers out of jail
They were taking photographs of a military installation that they intended to reproduce inside Arma III. That almost certainly means moderately detailed shots of buildings, security measures, and military personal, which is illegal in some (most? all?) countries.
Note: in the US, you can take pictures of aircraft or historical buildings, but not restricted areas. The point is to prevent surveillance intended to find weaknesses in security that can be exploited, aka "casing the joint". Pretty standard practice in the military. They should have definitely have asked for permission first.
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
So if I was there as a tourist, would I get arrested?
Or is somehow putting your island into a video game now sedition or something?
TFA is pretty slim, but I'm having a hard time imagine what law was broken.
TFA is not thin at all. It states that the men were caught with photographs of military installations. I would wager that most countries have laws against photographic military bases, and I'm not surprised that Greece do. This was just a really stupid thing to do.
They tend to be jumpy about photographers near military installations. (they still seem to anticipate a Turkish invasion at any moment)
Like the plane-spotters they arrested 11 years ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1953654.stm
Surely if it were dissolved then it would turn into an EU solution.
Truly a lack of intuition.
I spent an entire summer plotting out routes of houses to photograph based on an old database of the trees that were sold there 15+ years ago as I was building a photo library of mature trees and large shrubs.
This has nothing to to do with any sort of military installation and I thought it was pretty straightforward that I would knock of the doors, identify myself (many times it was still the same owners from 15+ years ago and they were delighted to see me), and ask permission.
Why the hell would you go to another country and take photographs of military facilities? That is just a complete lapse of judgement.
Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
As my friends in Wikipedia
Wikipedia has a friending feature now also? Please... make it stop... I am sick of having so many friends.
Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
Disclaimer: I am a Greek citizen.
Feel free to take cameras with you and take pictures of the beautiful scenery, monuments and people. When however, you go outside military facilities that have big "NO PHOTOGRAPHY ALLOWED" signs (in english and actual no camera icons in case you don't know english) and start taking detailed photographs with your DSLR and 70-300 lens, expect to be arrested if caught. The devs should absolutely have requested a license to do it, they didn't care to do it or got caught in the bureaucracy that is to be expected with these affairs, they got arrested for breaking the law. If they were caught doing that in the US (say, outside Nellis AFB), I wonder what would have happened to them.
I figured I'd take a lookie at what all you can get from sat imagery commercially on Google Maps. Now, it says Myrina Police were involved on the island of Lemnos. Looking nearby there, I don't see anything screaming military installation. If you look, 'maybe, at : 39.867707,25.066209 (copy paste into google maps) is the base? It's close enough to town that local Police would have possibly been involved faster than MPs. If they were just looking for topography, layout, etc, than what I just took 3 minutes to do, and a little creativity can go a LONG way. Like others have said... perhaps calling ahead would have been a wise move.
being greek, i've read some of the original articles. The problem is, they were taking photographs and videotaping active military bases. I'm pretty sure, the guys are not spies but gathering intelligence on foreign military installations constitutes spying in most of the countries i know
Or rather, it would be a solution of Greece in EU.
Although I have to wonder about how well the EU works as a solvent... they don't seem particularly solvent to me...
Most of the commentators here are speaking out of their asses. Let me tell you somethings, being greek and all.
First of all ,Limnos is one of the Greek islands that is very close to Turkey. There have been a lot of incidents in the past there. Maybe the whole point of the clashes were moot, maybe not, but i can't blame the officials for being extra carefull.
Secondly, personally i believe that the guys did not mean harm. But, they were photographing and videotaping active military camps. Sure there's satellite photos of everything on the island on google maps, but gathering intelligence on military installations is one of the most basic espionage actions. If that's not spying, i don't know what is.
Finally, for all those talking about tourists and tourist activities, that's a whole lot of hors*shit. Next time you decide to come for vacations, try to stay at the beach. The military bases are off limits.
You may doubt it, but I do not. I took over nearly two year for a group of tourist plane spotters to be acquitted of espionage charges in 2001. At the initial process 8 of that group were convicted to three years in jail.
Greece bonds are weak but slow-moving - in economic jargon, "slippery".
And, contrary to Art.3(3) TEU, everyone else has a low rate of interest.
I'm going to go with "this should be common sense NOT to do this without local government approval and fore knowledge in today's charged political climate."
It should be ESPECIALLY obvious since this is a war/battle/fighting simulation where the setting is a specific (not imaginary/fantasy) location being simulated.
I feel sorry for the people who were arrested -- they were probably not the decision makers. If they were the decision makers, they deserve what they got. If they are not the decision makers, whatever trouble they experience should be the basis of a law suit against the decision makers for being stupid and negligent.
Illegal eh? Hey Greece: ever hear of Google?
What's that? No, we will not spot you airfare to come over here and arrest Larry and Sergei. And don't even try to mail that wooden horse to Mountain View.
In any case, they now have a reference for goon behavior they can also include in the game.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Nature is not a sentient being and it does not gift anything to anyone.
>>>Note: in the US, you can take pictures of aircraft or historical buildings, but not restricted areas. The point is to prevent surveillance intended to find weaknesses in security that can be exploited, aka "casing the joint". Pretty standard practice in the military.
In the U.S. the courts have ruled again-and-again that people may not be forbidden from recording that which is in public view. ("Per the first amendment citizens have a right to record the activities of their government officials in public areas." and "There is no expectation of privacy when in public view.") It is why places like Area 51 are surrounded by miles and miles of "buffer zone" so nobody can get close enough to see the place.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
So if I was there as a tourist, would I get arrested?
Or is somehow putting your island into a video game now sedition or something?
TFA is pretty slim, but I'm having a hard time imagine what law was broken.
This shouldn't be all that surprising. I'm not familiar with Greek law but in the US one can only be certain that photographing a military installation is legal if one has written authorization from the base commander. See here. Speaking from personal experience, if one were to stop on US Route 2 heading through North Dakota, photograph one of the Minuteman nuclear missile launch facilities just a few yards off the road, a visit from Minot Airforce Base security is quite likely. Again, speaking from personal experience, these security personnel have brand new shiny M-4s (not those beat up ones from the sandbox) and a .30 cal machine gun mounted on their HUMVEE. If one were to continue photographing, this is once again from personal experience, they will call the sheriff's deputy (who happens to be a serious hottie) and she will threaten arrest for disorderly conduct.
My guess is that the Minuteman launch facilities are considered off limits. They have signs which say "Restricted Area" and federal statute considers these areas off limits in terms of photography. According to statute, it seems that even photographing these area from a distance, such as while standing on a publicly traveled way such as US Route 2, is likely prohibited. The signs on the nuclear launch facilities say they will shoot you if you actually climb the fence. There are hundreds of these facilities across northwest North Dakota. It seems to me that the sheer number of launch facilities would make it difficult for a tourist to photographically document their vacation to beautiful North Dakota.
I don't see why it's surprising that other countries have similar laws in place
I think suspending Greece would make more sense.
Do you really think they could afford THAT postage??
bickerdyke
Czechs and getting footage of a military base, they'd sure be instantly classified as terrorists.
Eh? The Czech Republic is an honored member of NATO. The U.S. has already sworn to shed its own blood and spend its own treasury to defend it. One NATO member spying on another is none of the U. S. 's business. Hell, one NATO member at war with another is almost none of the U. S.'s business, except for the diplomatic pressure to encourage them to stop.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
According to Greek media, the devs arrested had recordings of:
* An MM-40 Exocet Block II installation (anti-ship missile)
* The 130th Battle Squadron
* A radar installation
* Army base and barracks.
Media report that the military authorities were particularly concerned that the data captured from the devs showed no only the position of these installations and the type of equipment they contained, but also things like access routes, alternative routes, fuel depots etc.
It is also common knowledge that Greece's primary foe in the area, Turkey, uses spies who are never Turkish citizens. Most commonly, Turks use agents from the Netherlands.
BAM! Aww take that Greece! It's funny because they're poor!
Oh. Don't look like that. Here's a quarter, go buy a house in Greece!
BAM! Oh! The crowd goes wild!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Seriously hottie got my attention. Got an address?
Wuddooeyeno? IITYWYBMAD? Like nuts? eclecticallyincorrect.com
>Eh?
Yes, the OP is right.
> The Czech Republic is an honored member of NATO.
Czechosolovakia has won no honors in NATO. http://tinyurl.com/9v6ec6b
> The U.S. has already sworn to shed its own blood and spend its own treasury to defend it.
The U.S. has not sworn to shed its own blood or spend its own treasury to defend it. http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm
>One NATO member spying on another is none of the U.S.'s business,
Then in that case your previous statement falls. Either it IS the U.S. and other NATO member states' business in which case it IS the U.S.'s business OR it's none of anyone else's business in which case the whole falacious comment about blood and treasury (false as it is) is inapplicable.
>except for the diplomatic pressure...
Yeah you made that up for your convenience. I've shown you the NATO charter. Please
demonstrate where it says any of that.
Such rabid conflictory justification of "The US Must Shed Blood and Treasury" but oh wait "It's none of the US business" but wait "The US should exert diplomatic pressure."
I see the horns waggling and I'm not stepping in your words.
E
That's why cops are confiscating cameras in public places and forbid photographing and video recording in the U.S.
You have a point, but it's still legal to take those pictures, and once you get to court, you at least don't get sent to prison for it.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"