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The Linux Desktop and ISVs/OEMs

olau writes "Michael Meeks, who's worked on GNOME and LibreOffice integration for many years, now for SuSE, has some really interesting thoughts on the recent Linux desktop debate and suggestions for possible strategies. He points out that regarding independent software vendors (ISVs), the real issue isn't actually the quality of the tools but the size and attractiveness of the market, and perhaps that a solution could be lower barriers for paying or donating. Regarding OEMs selling hardware with software preinstalled, he points out that while a free OS + software sounds good for consumers, it's actually a problem for OEMs on razor-thin margins, since they lose the cut they get from the preinstallations. A possible countermove could be nailing robustness and hardware diagnostics for good, lowering OEM support costs."

22 of 195 comments (clear)

  1. Fall in line by pellik · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At the end of the day, it's a lot easier if Grandma has an OS that other family members can help her with.

    No matter how much I like my Linux Desktop, I don't want to be responsible for bringing non-tech-savvy people along. The rest of the family is fully capable of troubleshooting basic windows problems, more or less.

    1. Re:Fall in line by vurian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It was one, good, reason for moving to Linux. The perfect excuse to decline helping people with their Windows problems.

    2. Re:Fall in line by Nursie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I view that the other way round - One way or another I will be tech support for my mother. It would be easier for me, as someone that doesn't use windows any more, to support her using linux.

      But frankly at this point I don't want the hassle of moving her from one OS that she knows how to use badly to another she doesn't know at all.

    3. Re:Fall in line by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Informative

      Run windows in a vm on her machine, automate snapshots and that way you can roll it back for her.

      Old folks don't play video games or need tons of storage.

    4. Re:Fall in line by houghi · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I have been doing this for years. People come to me with Windows problems and I just say they must go to the person who sold them their software.

      Blank stares as they do not understand. They are confused because they did not pay for their version of Windows. Even blanker stares if they DID pay for their version and can't get support for it.

      And then they tell me that they found somebody who did it for them who explained that it is normal that PCs go slower over time and that they must buy a new one. When I ask them if their TV is slower, they look at me if _I_ am stoopid.

      Obviously they have no interest in free (beer AND speech) alternatives.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    5. Re:Fall in line by DickBreath · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That is also my experience. Set grandma up with Linux (Ubuntu 6.10) on a very old PC back in 2006. Gradually she not only got used to it but got to make good enough use of it to warrant a brand new machine. Now several years after that, we upgraded the hard drive, and the Ubuntu on it. Now we're thinking about another new PC with yet another new Ubuntu. I don't know how Unity will go over, but the browser seems to be the major application other than some collecting and printing of digital camera photos.

      Oh, and she lives several hours away. So I set up a way I can SSH in through the firewall on non standard port, and then VNC. I've only had to do that about three or four times over the years, and mostly only in the early days. Things like accidentially pressing F11 to maximize Firefox -- OMG what happened! Etc.

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
    6. Re:Fall in line by Urza9814 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      On the other hand...

      My mother has a Linux netbook. Other than getting her email set up with Thunderbird when she got it (she couldn't do that herself in Outlook Express either,) I haven't ever touched the thing. It's just never had an issue.

      Her Windows desktop, on the other hand, seems to need some kind of repair every time I visit.....

    7. Re:Fall in line by Microlith · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Watch me get hate for saying this, but fuck it I got karma...its the updates!

      Well, is it hate because people disagree with you or is it hate because you're wrong and being deliberately inflammatory?

      can take a copy of XP RTM with NO service packs, slap it on any old bog standard P4 or other PC I have laying around, make sure all the drivers are working and then patch it to current. That is THREE service packs and probably a couple of thousand updates on top of that, what do I get at the end? It is ALL still working. The WiFi is working, the video is working, the sound, the NIC, its ALL still working.

      Lucky you! I've seen one or more driver packs and updates in sequence for Windows XP cause it to be left in a shitty state that works (maybe) but is broken in some manner.

      Now compare to Linux: I can take any distro that was released the same quarter as Vista, which is supposed to be the shittiest MSFT OS since WinME which I agree with, place it and Vista RTM side by side, patch them both to current...what do I get? All the hardware on the Vista machine still works, the hardware on the Linux box is fucked.

      Really? How so? Oh wait, you won't give an example. Just a "Linux leaves systems fucked after updates! Linux sucks!" and we're supposed to believe you blindly. Got it.

    8. Re:Fall in line by greenbird · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Her Windows desktop, on the other hand, seems to need some kind of repair every time I visit.....

      Amen to that, brother. I use to have to book special trips to fix my mothers Windows systems, printers not working, email broke, browser won't work on web site, system real slow, weird crashes, viruses like you wouldn't beleive, and on and on... Finally her laptop broke and she took it Geek Squad (mind you against my repeated admonitions not to). They charged her $70 to tell her their Windows diagnostic CD wouldn't even start and she had serious hardware problems and it would cost at LEAST $200 more just to diagnose the problems. I told her to send it to me. I installed Ubuntu. Went up there and showed her where the menus were, how to find all the nice free software for doing whatever she needed to do and set up her email in Thunderbird. Haven't had to touch it since and that was more than 3 years ago. Mind you she is about as computer illiterate as they come. I could tell several more stories of conversion. Linux is better on the desktop than Windows for everyone, not just "computer geeks". The ONLY reason it's not more wide spread is it doesn't come pre-installed. Mind you it's a lot easier to install than Windows also.

      --
      Who is John Galt?
    9. Re:Fall in line by greenbird · · Score: 3

      Now compare to Linux: I can take any distro that was released the same quarter as Vista, which is supposed to be the shittiest MSFT OS since WinME which I agree with, place it and Vista RTM side by side, patch them both to current...what do I get? All the hardware on the Vista machine still works, the hardware on the Linux box is fucked.

      This is just plain a blatant lie. In the past 10 years I've installed OSes on at least 40 systems ranging from old clunky desktop hardware to netbooks. With Linux I've almost never had problems other than wireless and even that hasn't usually been an issue for years. Every time I've installed Windows it's been a battle with drivers. With XP you couldn't even install to SATA drives until Service Pack 2 years after SATA came out. Then you had to load network drivers to a CD just to get them to the system so you could even get the rest of the drivers. Then you have to figure out what video and sound drivers you needed while operating at 640×480. Now Windows 7 is greatly improved in this respect. At least the basics like networking seem to work so you can just pull video drivers from the web (mind you still, running at 640x480).

      --
      Who is John Galt?
    10. Re:Fall in line by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Linux is better on the desktop than Windows for everyone, not just "computer geeks".

      Disagree. Linux works great for those who are computer illiterate, at least as long as you don't tell them it's Linux until they are already using it (otherwise they'll probably balk at it being too hard to use before even turning the system on). And it works great for those of us who know our way around a computer.

      But in between, you have the hardcore Windows geeks. The ones who know exactly which malware removal tool that works for which malware, and have reinstalled Windows so many times they couldn't count it with a calculator (they tend to also be the ones fixing Windows for their friends, which does increase the count). Give them a Linux machine, and they will find it completely useless, everything is text files, which is way too complicated compared to finding the correct GUID in a nice GUI tool like REGEDIT, none of their malware scanners work, and every time they reinstall, they end up with exactly the same results.

      For them, Linux will not be an option.

    11. Re:Fall in line by dbIII · · Score: 3, Informative

      Just today somebody gave me a TV tuner and video capture card because it doesn't work on Win7. In my workplace we have expensive machines with weird backplanes that were purchased this year and are running win98 due to some digital signal processing hardware that won't run on anything newer. Some HP printers were abandoned when win7 came out, never mind the stuff from far smaller companies that don't have the resources to rewrite drivers.
      The 100% bullshit really just shows a lack of experience in your pet subject. With closed drivers you have to hope that they people producing them give a shit or otherwise you run the risk of having to get new hardware when the software is upgraded. That's not a big deal for one person, but when there are large collections of hardware or niches where you depend on one bit of odd gear to do a task you end up with the legacy gear in the corner for a specific task and far more machines than you have users.

  2. Re:You sell for the market. by jedidiah · · Score: 3, Informative

    Linux SERVERS already manage to hit the "cost $500 less" metric. That's not the topic of discussion here. This was an article about DESKTOP Linux.

    Servers are an entirely different kettle of fish and an area where Microsoft isn't nearly as dominant.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  3. But why write applications for desktop Linux ... by Tim+Ward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... when you have children to feed and a mortgage to pay ... ... and the users expect all their software to be free?

    Better off spending one's time addressing a market where people expect to have to pay for stuff, no?

  4. Re:You sell for the market. by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is 2012 everyone is using some kind of virtualization. Linux servers are as such free. They are just another vm your fire up, and the biggest savings are not having to hassle with licensing.

  5. Re:But why write applications for desktop Linux .. by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What linux users expect all software to be free?

    I guess I did not pay for all these steam games.

    Where did you get that idea?

  6. Re:But why write applications for desktop Linux .. by Microlith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ah, Slashdot. You've entered a new age when anti-FOSS/anti-Linux trolling is marked as "Insightful."

  7. Re:But why write applications for desktop Linux .. by raymorris · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In fifteen years, I've purchased ONE application. It wasn't very good and since it wasn't open source I couldn't fix it. So I guess I'm one who expects all my software to be "free". (I contribute code, bug reports, etc., not cash) Funny thing is, I make a living mainly by SELLING software for Linux, but I never BUY software.

  8. I got my mom to use linux, and she's a Grandma. by Zimluura · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I got my mom to use linux, and she's a Grandma. I got sick of having to re-install windows so I left for linux*, then told her that I wasn't really doing windows anymore because I no longer learned anything when i fixed problems on it. So she switched, loves it, when it has issues...at least I learn something.

    *not having internet explorer is a feature!

  9. The Future: Pay a premium for free software by Yfrwlf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Artificial scarcity. It is the backbone of the American economy as well as many other corporatist nations. Since you can't make money off free stuff, stores won't carry it. Even when selling hardware, if they can make more money selling restricted software along with it, they will. Before if you got a discount from buying a pre-built computer with crapware on it, at least you could wipe it all and install whatever you wanted. Now with “secure boot”, they can push control onto the software level and control the entire software stack if the wanted to. Don't like that Windows 8 Crapware Edition on there? Too bad, you're stuck with it, and the Crapware Edition won't allow you to remove the crapware on it either, plus it comes with adware and spyware (when you purchased this computer, you automatically opted-in to provide us with “information for marketing purposes”) pre-loaded which you also can't remove. I can also see this entire system pushing out build-it-yourself computers since the pre-built one offers more money. Even if some semblance of DIY hardware is still available, at the very least the pre-built systems will ultimately cost less because the hardware vendors will get a cut of the marketing and data mining profits.

    I just figured I would share the future in advance with everyone so that the reality would set in sooner: Start supporting vendors which sell pre-built computers that aren't locked down as well as standardized DIY hardware. Also, start supporting home fabrication projects which will soon be able to create primitive computers, because ultimately unregulated capitalism will always find some way to fuck you otherwise. DIY hardware is already horribly unstandardized and consumer-raping. If you live in a country which is regulated so you feel you don't have to worry - just wait, you will. There is meaning behind the saying with the roots and the evil. No, not the recipe for making evil root beer.

    --
    Promote true freedom - support standards and interoperability.
  10. I'm surprised no one is mentioning Chrome OS by tlambert · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Linux desktop, with browser, backed by web applications.

    Five OEM systems and counting.

  11. Which planet again? by IBitOBear · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I get paid major bank to work on software for Linux. That some of it goes out to be free is no skin off my teeth.

    See free software isn't "I'm gonna write some POS and hope someone buys it" development model. Those days are dead mostly anyway. Its "Some guy wants these features put on that 'free' bit because he actually has a use case, and he's gonna pay me to meet his needs then give it away so neither of us get stuck paying upkeep and he can have me do something newer and better".

    Who want's to spend 40 years doing maintenance on a some accounting or word processing software anyway. There are people who are writing better gear because they need to process words and account for money. And since they really make their money counting money and processing words, giving the bycatch code out as the "whole cost" of getting the whole pre-mod app is a huge win.

    It just won't lead to "another microsoft"

    That closed source model was a fluke anyway, the preceding 40 years were open source. The next twenty five or so was a grand experiment that largely failed except for a few really unexpected cutthroat operators, and now its back to the more natural state of only paying for what you need.

    In a current version of word I don't use 90% of it, and I'm a technical writer and novelist, but I paid for it all back when I was that foolish. Same can be said for any person or company that has ever bought that slag. So now there is this free stuff that was made by someone who actually needed it, so it's not so much slag, and given away to others who _might_ need it, and then gotten back greatly improved by the supporters and the adders on.

    That's lots of money feeding lots of people, and nobody is wasting their time or money playing the "trade secret" and "big P.R." games.

    What's not to love?

    --
    Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
    --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press