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Ask Slashdot: What Tech For a Sailing Ship?
Razgorov Prikazka writes "There is a lot of technology involved in sailing these days. EPIRB, FHV-DSC, GPS, NAVTEX, Inmarsat, fishfinders/depth sounders, different kinds of radar (with MARPA or ATA) — you name it and there are dozens of manufacturers out there willing to provide, all of them with a range of different products. Right now I am planning a 'round-the-world-trip,'' and my ship (an 18-meter Skerry Cruiser sailing yacht) is in its early construction phase, so I need to shop for some hi-tech gear and, basically, I got lost in all the possibilities. What kind of hardware would you recommend as necessary for a trip of this kind? What would you have installed in your ship in order to have a safe trip?"
Satellite internet, so you can read /. in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
sudo make me a sandwich
A compass and a sextant. Seriously, learn the basics first.
Get an EPIRB. If the ship collides with a floating container and sinks quickly you will have no time to manually send a distress signal before abandoning ship. A free-floating EPIRB will automatically engage in case of sinking and with its encoded distress signal you will get aid within hours. For communications on the oceans I recommend getting a good shortwave radio with a decent grounding and antenna that can communicate further than any VHF-based system. Source: I helped build and design a Swedish 131' sailing yacht.
Quantum hacker.
If it was good enough for Christopher Columbus it's good enough for you!
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
Quoth the Seraffyn, "go now and go small" - Lin and Larry Pardey
18m (52') is hugely way too enormous for less than five people. I would seriously consider a 42' boat at the high end. At some point you're going to be tasked with reefing the main by yourself in 30kts of wind and trusting that your systems are working correctly. I've reefed the main with four other people on a 46' boat in 25 kts of wind and even with a fancy expensive duch reefing system, it's still not a walk in the park.
That said, Garmin (of course) makes a wide variety of systems, as do quite a few others. I'm curious to see if anyone with real experience chimes in here, but while you can get by navigating along the coast with an iPad or Android phone (we do this in our boat), that's not a system you want to rely on for years on end in a marine environment.
moox. for a new generation.
You are planning to sail around the world in your fancy new boat, but you don't know enough about sailing to pick out the right gear? How about you start by posting a rescue bond with the coast guard.
While I'm sure there are some here that are into sailing, this question should really be placed at a sailing forum instead. There are plenty of those - I'd suggest that you become a member there, and ask the question there instead. It also seems to me that a round-the-world trip may be a bit ambitious if you don't even know about the gear (or have tested the boat) yet. Something more limited may be suitable initially.
What would you have installed in your ship in order to have a safe trip?
Nothing. The zombies can't get you on the open ocean.
Look where all this talking got us, baby.
As a cheap way to do email: http://www.sailmail.com/
Why would .. what?! Your building a ship to sail around the world and your asking people, "So exactly, how do *you* sail around the world?"
Sorry, it's just a really weird post.
You need the advice of a very limited number of highly experienced sailors, not a random mob of geeks and nerds.
Sig. Sig. Sputnik
I didn't realize Romney posted on Slashdot. Must be planning his next vacation.
[John]
Shit better not happen!
"Handling Small Boats in Heavy Weather" by Frank Robb.
Also, get British charts, they are better than American charts.
then I would stay home and pilot everything via my iPad.
That way when the ship capsized, I would be fine and still be able to send out my backup ship.
You DO have a backup ship right?
I like microcars
I agree, the AIS really makes a difference, especially if you are planning to be around areas busy with ships at night. It is going to be pretty pointless in the middle of the Atlantic, but still worth the effort when you are approaching coast.
Additionally, make sure you get an EPIRB, there is pretty much nothing like that for signalling your position in case of distress, and it makes you sleep better.
For the rest, go with your taste...
....mounted right on the bow in plain site. Good luck off the coast of Somalia, the Indian Ocean and pretty much all of the waters around Indonesia and the Philippines.,
Razgorov,
I'm a sailor myself, having done a lot of time on the Atlantic up near New England, and having had my share of surprises out there. And I can tell you this: Slashdot is not where you should get your advice. I'm seeing things like "Satellite internet, so you can read /. in the middle of the Pacific Ocean," listed under "Easy." Really? REALLY? You're asking about gear which will help you do one of a few things: 1, find your way so that you reach land on the other side instead of going off into the wild blue yonder, 2, keep your boat operating so that you can continue to direct your own fate, and 3, not sink and/or die. And you're getting answers like that.
There are communities of sailors who have actually done long-distance sailing. Speak with them. The question is not about the tech, it's about the problems you're likely to encounter, and what to expect. The choices you make will literally affect your chances of survival; you really want to have one-on-one discussions with people to get a sense of what you need to know, to make your own decisions. Circumnavigation is no joke, even in an 18-meter yacht. You're going to have disasters. Speak to some people who have actually had to deal with those disasters, not a population that is full of people who think this is some kind of cool game.
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
http://www.winlink.org/WINMOR and a HF radio ( and a license if you dont already have one ).
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
A sextant, a clock, a compass, a nautical almanac and paper charts more advanced technology than that will fail you when you need it most.
Shawn Moore http://www.teuse.net
Several well concealed, yet accessible firearms. Pistols as well as some kind of AR. The ocean's a big place and there ain't any 911.
That said, be sure you read up on the firearms rules for every place you might find yourself. If they don't want you to be able to protect yourself, you don't want to go there.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
You want to ask a bunch of people who live in their mother's basement what you need to sail around the world? Good luck with that.
Wow, what a total waste of money. $3-5k just to watch fucking TV, so you can see crap like Jersey Shore and Maury Povitch?
Have you sailed across the open ocean yet? I'm concerned since that boat looks like a racing cruiser. She looks fast, but she also looks like she'd roll on you in a second unless you were paying lots of attention. You're not going to try to sail solo, are you?
Boat forums would be better to post on, and there are many of them. You'd also be able to find some sailors with experience to tell you about gear and the best boats to attempt an around the world cruise.
There are more than enough books out there to inform you about the harsh realities of open water sailing. There's also a few that would make someone foolishly optimistic about first time around the world sailing. Be careful about those books. Floating containers and pirates are more than enough to keep me away from such an endeavor.
Ignore the harsh tone of some of these posts, but don't forget the ocean is one harsh place and not forgiving. Good luck and safe voyage.
I just did what you are planning (except the circumnavigation) and I was in IT prior to that.
I did it on a Hylas 46 with my wife. Down to Trini and back to FL.
Never mind Sextant and compass as stated above here's what we needed and relied upon.
3G (with DGPS HW) iPad and Navionics /iNavX charts installed (pre-downloaded).
A couple mac/linux laptops with OpenCPN and Bu535 GPS dongles as backup - we never used the ships navigation as much as handheld.
A high gain Wifi (a/b/g/n) anntena with at least 1W xmit - wifi is crucial in port or even nearshore to pickup wx reporting and comms.
A roccna or Manson Supreme anchor - trust the data not the barflies.
AIS is more helpful that radar- both are good to have but AIS is really helpful and makes night watches simple.
As for safety, G-pirb, pay Chris parker and listen to him every morning in the Atlanic on SSB or if you can afford KVH/inmarsat then download his reporting, and a canister raft with a grab bag.
Safest possible way to travel is with acquaintances on other boats together making the same passage and stay in touch with SSB, satphone or VHF for short hops.
Spectra watermaker, danfoss/frigoboat refers and solar!!!!! (yes there is space on a monhull either on bimini or in the lifelines between stantions- no they dont ruin the boat's asthetics since they are only 1" high and horizontally mounted they disappear in profile.
We tossed the genset and lived at anchor indefinitely with solar only covering powertools, laptops, refers, gps anchor alarm 24x7.
Liferaft.
EPIRB, properly registered and with a new battery.
Marine handheld in the ditch bag.
Get an FCC marine VHF license. Required for international voyages. You need an FCC issued MMSI number for your VHF. The free kind of MMSI is not listed in the international search and rescue database.
DSC-VHF. Be sure to set up the MMSI number in the VHF. Be sure to connect a GPS to the radio, so that if you hit the red button, it actually works. That red button won't do a thin unless it has an MMSI programmed in and won't do much unless you also have a GPS connected to the radio so that it can send its location when you hit the red distress button.
I think you'd be nuts to head out without the items listed above. Totally nuts. I'd think long and hard about including the items below, in my kit.
Satellite phone.
AIS transponder. Ideally - that way you can see and be seen by the enormous cargo vessels who take 1 mile to stop and which CANNOT turn on a dime.
AIS receive, minimum. Standard-Horizon's Matrix AIS+ GX2150 radio combines DSC-VHF radio with integrated AIS receive only. Just add GPS & proper MMSI number and you are good to go. You do have backup VHF antennas, right?
Marine GPS chartplotter, with appropriate charts.
Paper charts and the knowledge to use them.
If you know what you are doing, or are willing to invest the (non-trivial) time to get up to speed, marine SSB radio and pactor modem to do email by HF radio.
Radar
If you are going to put a laptop or tablet aboard, keep in mind that saltwater is a hostile environment. Don't assume that your basic consumer grade laptop will hold up aboard a sailboat.
Gotta say, if you are asking this question on Slashdot, I don't think you are ready to cast off the docklines.
There are much better places to be asking this question. Places were folks who do lots of long distance sailing are hanging out. Online groups composed of serious, experienced cruisers. If you don't know about those resources, you have a whole lot of work ahead of you before you start buying stuff and definitely a whole lot of work ahead of you before you cast off and set sail.
My parents tool around the Bahamas every year in a Little Harbor 39'.
They've got at least three different GPS units; one built into the radar so you can match up coastal features with your charts, one built into the map desk, and at least two hand-held units (ala' Garmin Trek). Make sure the units you're looking at have digital sea charts available, as most of the hand-held units don't (or didn't last I checked) come with sea charts built in. The handhelds also have non-slip, brightly colored (yellow/orange) rubber protectors, bought separately.
You'll want to get into HAM radio, maybe even get a license. Definitely get one for home to try out, even if you buy a different unit for the boat.
Get eneloop batteries and a good charger or two. Also get a solar charger that you can roll out or pack away easily that will charge two AA's fairly quickly.
A wind turbine may be a good idea if you're planning to have a lot of tech gear, and almost certainly if you want a fridge with a freezer. However, most of them are noisy and getting a broken line caught in one while in bad weather will only make things worse. Also, if you have the wind to your back (generally speaking, sailing west) they won't generate as much (as if the boat were stationary) since you're traveling with the wind. If you're traveling east, you'll need more fuel to push it through the air (at a much less efficient rate than just running a more powerful generator off your engine).
An app like Night Sky that will super-impose constellation and astronomy info over a live camera image might be of use. (disc: that's the only app like that I've used and not much - not an endorsement, but it is a cool app)
If you're not already, become a: carpenter, plumber, electrician, mechanic, and eagle-scout level knot tying master. Practice doing separate skills with each limb while balancing on a see-saw.
Get used to making really detailed sailing plans and estimating how long it will take and how much gas and fresh water you'll need to get from point A to point B. Then flush those plans down the toilet. Repeat ad nauseam.
Lastly: have fun, it's great! :)
Some credentials: My folks own and operate a boatyard. We built a 64'8" (20m) Alden staysail schooner in the early 2000's called the Lion's Whelp. This boat was to be used by the family as an blue water cruiser. Many trips to the carib via Bermuda and along the Maine coast, but nothing across the Atlantic yet. Also used as a design tour-de-force displaying our company's know how. We won the Concours D'Elegance at the Antigua Classic yacht Regatta our first year there, a 2nd place the next year. The boat hasn't been back in subsequent years.
Full build history plus many, many photographs and discussion can be found on the yard website: http://portlandyacht.com/lionswhelp
Some of the systems we have onboard include: Reverse osmosis watermaker, EPIRB, GPS, IBM Blade server, AC, diesel heater, diesel generator, deep cycle batteries, LCD movie projector, Stereo/DVD/CD/MP3/iPod, main engine direct powered 3000 gallon per minute bilge pump, RADAR "pinger" (makes us look bigger to cargo ships), Sauna (yes, a sauna), full wind instruments, satellite modem, satellite weather station, universal shore power inverters (europe,japan is 50hz, etc), autopilot, VHF, shortwave radio, cell service repeater, wifi, etc, etc, etc.
If you read through our site you will note that we deliberately overbuilt the boat because the owner is the builder is the captain and any disaster onboard would kill his family. Stays and shrouds are each strong enough to hold up the entire 42 ton boat. Anything that could save lives was installed on the boat. As a consequence, the boat was 3000 pounds over the original design weight. Doesn't really matter because it's a cruiser not a racer. Righting arm would still right the boat at 178 degrees (almost upside down), while most modern fin keel boats won't right at 120 degrees.
After years of being onboard we've realized that there needs to been a dedicated systems expert onboard at all times if you expect to have every piece of the systems up and running at all times.
Not sure where you're building your Skerry, but we'd be happy to discuss your needs and right-sizing your equipment needs without overloading your day-to-day maintenance. (or today's budget) If you're in Portland Maine you could come by the yard and see the boat now for a full tour and more discussion.
207-774-1067 - Owner Phin is on site and wife Joanna is in the office answering phones.
One more reason to keep an eye on your money.
> Right now I am planning a 'round-the-world-trip and my ship (an 18 meter Skerry Cruiser sailing yacht) ... What kind of hardware would you recommend as necessary for a trip of this kind?
#1 Balls of solid brass.
Forget worrying about electronics, you have chosen a boat that that is not suited to a circumnavigation.
(Obligatory /. car analogy: I just bought a Toyota Prius. I am planning in driving the Pan American Highway from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego. How many pairs of socks should I bring?)
A skerry cruiser has very fine ends and low freeboard. Long and narrow it works well for its intended purpose: fast daysailing between islands of the Baltic sea archipelagos. However, they are miserable, if not downright dangerous offshore. The low freeboard will make for a very wet boat. The fine bow and stern lack sufficient reserve buoyancy (lack volume) for big seas. Instead of lifting to a steep wave and riding over the crest, you will pow through taking lots of green water over the bow going upwind, and take boarding seas over the stern and into the cockpit when running downwind in big seas.
I suggest reading "Heavy Weather Sailing" by K. Adlard Coles. A must read for offshore sailors. It's not a lake out there.
Disclaimer: I have not sailed around the world. However I have made several ocean crossings and sailed several tens of thousands of mile offshore and in all kinds of weather.
In my view the depth sounder is the most important piece of electronic technology so make sure it works and you have spare parts. If you have a sonar it will provide some redundancy since they both provide depth information.
Not only does the depth sounder tell you how deep the water under yer ship is when combined with chart and tide table it can be used to help figure out where you are by comparing depth contours.
Sonars/fish finders.. are awesome toys especially the new chirp mode gear...yet hardly required. Every time you drill a hole in the bottom of your boat for some new gadget you are increasing your risk.
GPS with fancy chart plotter..of course...don't buy a chart plotter that looks like a tablet.. It can have a touch screen but it must have real knobs and buttons....touch is useless at sea with the waves knocking you around all the time. If it were me I would pick up one of those new e series raymarine thingis. Look for a GPS unit with RAIM.
It is important not to depend on shit that can break or shit that won't work without power. You still need to get paper charts and should have basics of dr, danger bearings, running fix..etc. Having a good hand compass is important.
Obviously a DSC capable VHF..is a must. I recommend getting one with integrated GPS..they are cheap today and by having an integrated GPS just like the fish finder vs depth sounder you have more redundancy in location..if your chart plotter or gps unit dies you can get your location from the radios GPS. Or get a separate GPS and wire it to the DSC and nema bus for chart plotter.
If it were me I would also get a portable vhf radio and ipod with gps/ navionics/notebook/tablet with charts loaded store them in a metal toolbox, oven or protected ditch bag. Not only for backup incase of electronics failure but incase you get hit by lightning.
For safety get several passive radar reflectors to hang high from your mast. One or two is not enough. Especially if you have a grb boat..they are quite transparent to radar.. They sell fancy active enhancers but these things require/consume power and are unecessary.
Radar is in my view a must have. Radars have a TON of different uses ..the swiss army knife of marine electronics. Take some care when positioning the radar antenna so that the beam path is not in the way of other antennas...lots of peeps make this mistake.
When you can't see 5 feet in front of you the radar will show you what is out there.
It can be used to detect birds (AKA fish) or uncomming weather/swells giving you more time to reef. When going thru hazardous channels rings can be used to help position your boat away from any charted hazards by measuring against land contours.
In terms of weather if you are not poor I would go for a sirius weather subscription and buy a chart plotter that supports it..it is not world wide coverage so check against where you plan on going to make sure it still works where you are going.
With sirius..you get tunes, weather/grib data will overlayed directly on your plotter.. it is cool to have but it involves subscription costs.
A navtex receiver is nice to have. In most locations in the world you can get basic weather information to have an idea what is going on via the radio/shortwave.
Weather fax and navtex can also be had on the cheap simply by plugging the line out from your radio into a notebook using software and the computers sound card to decode signals... If you don't like screwing around with technology it might be better to buy a separate dedicated navtex unit that will just work and consume less power than a notebook...what is the fun in that?
AIS looks like radar but works by boats broadcasting their GPS location over VHF so others know who is out there. The problem is not all boats or floating obstructions have working AIS transceivers so you can never depend on it.
Most modern chart plotters integrate with AIS and overlay location of other ships and their info
it's not a schooner, it's a sailboat!
This is the same kind of comment I got when I asked Slashdot about the electronics I should add for my mission to the moon. All I got was a flamewar over "spacecraft" versus "rocket."
I eventually just gave up and took an iPad, a speak-and-spell, and an RSA keyfob.
Silicon waterproofing spray.
DC currents and salt water vapour are an incredibly corrosive combination. There are several companies that provide water proofing application that will apply a thin layer of silicon over electronic components. I'd recommend this for all your electronics.
From the sound of it, you have the paper based back ups covered (chart, sextant etc) which is good.
Firearms (do they count as gadgets?) are tricky - international laws vary wildly, from meh, do what you like to serious jail time for undeclared firearms.
You have two basic tactical options - standoff, large calibre rifle, and CQB, rapid fire pistol rounds. You better be well trained in either or both if you plan on taking fire arms. Shooting long range off a small platform in open waters is not trivial, and tricky to practise on a range - throw a container overboard and practise at sea is the best advice I have here, and you'll have to be careful with the optics. .357 will give you the option to use .38 as well.
CQB (ie, let them board and then ambush) - well, assuming you don't have military training in room clearance, perhaps IPSC and related disciplines would help.
Revolvers have a lot to recommend them - more reliable if you aren't going to constantly maintain it (although glock's have a good reputation in salt water environments, all semi-automatic pistols are more vulnerable to stoppages than a revolver). Something like a
Satellite communications have come a loooong way in the past decade - there are now phased array antennas that are electronically steerable, as opposed to the gimbal mounted mechanical ones (that can be problematic). Prices for remote data access have dropped a fair bit, but I suspect you'll use it more for email/twitter/weather updates than downloading porn gifs... the prices haven't dropped that much!
You can network it to a wifi router for convenience HOWEVER you have to be careful that automatically running software updates etc don't bankrupt you while you aren't looking - you'll want to switch it off when not in use. (that $2 you saved by getting the free version of the phone app may cost you $20 downloading ads via satellite!)
Wifi in ports is a lot more prevalent these days, so that waterproof laptop should be pretty handy when you are in port.
Get a phone that is quad band and usable with sims worldwide, and with a removable battery (sorry, that counts iphone out). Either buy pre-waterproofed ones, or get them waterproofed. If it's a smart phone, it'll tend to burn through battery quicker than a basic phone, but there is an awesome number of apps that are useful both to a sailor (including charts, gps, compass, star charts, travel warnings etc) and to general travellers (language, tourist recommendations, camera etc).
You'll often find that locally bought sims are much cheaper than roaming - this is where dual sim phones are useful - the latest ones can operate the sims simultaneously (you effectively have two phones running at once).
I've seen people tie an on board security system into their phone - very handy in some ports. It's pretty easy to rig up a motion detecting security system to that laptop - if it's got internet access, it can email your phone when it gets an alert.
Rechargeable flashlights. Good waterproof ones. If you get LED based ones, get the single, large LED (3watts and higher) rather than the multiple small cheap LEDs. I've found the ones with focussing lenses more useful for both long and short range illumination.
What are you using for power? I presume you have on board batteries, charged by alternator from the main motor... generally also solar and wind turbines are popular, but both are definitely areas where you don't want to skimp on quality, given the corrosive environment.
That's all off the top of my head... :)
This is the same kind of comment I got when I asked Slashdot about ... my mission to the moon. All I got was a flamewar over "spacecraft" versus "rocket."
As a onetime Officer of the Watch on the bridge of a large warship, I say it matters.
When I saw this headline I was expecting an article on reviving the idea of sailing mechant ships - you know, tankers with computer controlled wingsails, that sort of thing (a bit like the flying cars stories). But what I found was a guy preparing a medium size traditional sailing yacht [OK, sailboat in America] for sea.
If this guy is calling a sailing yacht [sailboat] a "ship", the first thing he needs before technology is to swot up on some basic seafaring terminology. VERY basic - I would have thought even a layman would know the difference. OTOH, if he is calling his yacht a ship out of some kind of inflated pride, then that is also out of place at sea. It is just idiotic.
For example, if he needs to radio and says his "ship" is in trouble, the rescue people are not going to be looking for a yacht.
My own personal philosophy on this is simplicity and reliability. You have to ask yourself the question: what if a particular device breaks. What happens if lightning strikes my boat and zaps most of my fancy electronics? Will I be able to cope. Will I be able to fix the device? Will I be able to replace it "out there".
That said, being able to communicate via satellite is excellent. Having internet out there is excellent. Having GPS is excellent. Having up to date EPIRBS is excellent. Having chart-plotters and electronic self-steering is excellent. I also think that more standard time proven technology such as sideband radios would be good. However, there are caveats.
Firstly, you have to power all that gear. You can use your diesel engine to charge the batteries, but you are burning fuel, and you are reliant on the mechanics of your diesel engine. I think wind turbines are quite effective much of the time for charging batteries, and I think solar panels would also be a good backup, especially in the doldrums.
Finally, I think you have to consider the level of backup you have for your technology. I would have numerous GPS devices, protected from water and lightning surges. I would also be familiar with how to use a sextant, and how to use sight-reduction tables to establish a line of position. I would have enough paper charts that I wouldn't be stuck without my chart-plotter. I am personally a fan of mechanical self-steering using a wind-vane, but that possibly isn't for everyone. Still, if you lose power and you have electronic self-steering, it is not a good situation. The hydraulic rams used in electronic self-steering systems take a fair bit of energy as well.
My own boat is on the drawing board, sometime in the future. It will be outfitted according to principles of simplicity and reliability. Not being of independent means financially, I will avoid many of the toys that cost money and break out there, because I feel they would tether me too much, instead of allowing me to be free. Most of the things on my boat will be simple and reliable.
This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)