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Red Hat Fights Patent Troll With GPL

jfruh writes "Red Hat is in the middle of a patent lawsuit with Twin Peaks Software, which claims that a Red Hat subsidiary is abusing a Twin Peaks filesystem lawsuit. Now, Red Hat is launching an intriguing countermeasure: the company claims that Twin Peaks' own closed source software violates the GPL because it makes use of an open source disk utility that Red Hat holds the copyright on. Is this a smart move on Red Hat's part?"

34 of 98 comments (clear)

  1. s/filesystem lawsuit/filesystem patent/ by awkScooby · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's a patent RedHat is accused of "abusing".

  2. Not a NPE, Is it a Troll? by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Doesn't seem to be a Patent Troll if the company has a product. Trolls are generally Non Practicing Entities. Are we going to start calling Apple, Google, and Microsoft patent trolls now?

    1. Re:Not a NPE, Is it a Troll? by jedidiah · · Score: 5, Informative

      Sure.

      A troll is a parasite extracting payment for something that isn't really his.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:Not a NPE, Is it a Troll? by bwcbwc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In selected cases where the patent is obvious or duplicated by prior art, yes a lawsuit is still trolling even if you actually make use of the invention..

      --
      We are the 198 proof..
    3. Re:Not a NPE, Is it a Troll? by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, Troll is not a generic name for an evil company. A Troll is a company whose primary source of income is patent lawsuits. This company doesn't fit that discription. It has another source of income that can be sued. You can't fight a patent Troll with GPL because a patent Troll doesn't have a product that uses GPL. A true patent Troll is just a P.O. Box and a lawyer.

    4. Re:Not a NPE, Is it a Troll? by recoiledsnake · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Traditionally speaking, a patent troll was an NPE. I HATE rephrasings of meanings, which lead to the exact same 100 comment threads about the following issues:

      1) Open Source vs. open source
      2) Free vs. free vs. libre vs. beer vs. freedom
      3) Stealing vs. Copyright infringement
      4) Patent Troll vs. patent troll

      --
      This space for rent.
    5. Re:Not a NPE, Is it a Troll? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll

      "Patent troll is a pejorative term used for a person or company who enforces patents against one or more alleged infringers in a manner considered aggressive or opportunistic with no intention to manufacture or market the patented invention.[1]"

      1 Alexander Poltorak. "On 'Patent Trolls' and Injunctive Relief"., ipfrontline.com, May 12, 2006

      ------

      Sorry, you were saying something?

    6. Re:Not a NPE, Is it a Troll? by canajin56 · · Score: 5, Informative

      SCO wasn't a patent troll by any reasonable definition of the term. This is not because they had a product for sale, but because they didn't sue over patents.

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    7. Re:Not a NPE, Is it a Troll? by martin-boundary · · Score: 2

      Yes it is a metaphor. The troll under the bridge.

      Actually no. Troll as used in internet slang is a bastardisation of the word trawl, which means a large industrial scale net dragged along the sea bottom by a fishing vessel.

      On a forum like slashdot, a troll is a user who is fishing for predictable responses by other users. This is analogous to trawling because the troll is targeting everybody, usually with a controversial top level comment, and people get caught up in the resulting flamefest. Also like trawling, it damages the environment and leaves behind a population vacuum of sorts, ie readers who are still willing to have an intelligent discussion are rare.

      The true meaning of patent trolling is derived from the above. It means a company or individual who is casting a wide net of legal attacks, essentially on the whole world, with the aim of intimidating as many small fish as possible into paying patent extortion money. Like the other forms of trolling above, it leaves a vacuum behind, where those who would otherwise have developed an idea won't or can't do so anymore.

    8. Re:Not a NPE, Is it a Troll? by kumanopuusan · · Score: 2

      in a just society, even scumbags deserve a lawyer

      I'm certain that you meant

      in a just society, not even scumbags deserve a lawyer

      --
      Use of the words "good", "bad" or "evil" is almost invariably the result of oversimplification.
    9. Re:Not a NPE, Is it a Troll? by psithurism · · Score: 2

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll

      And cue wikipedia edit wars...

      "Patent troll is a symphony octopus umbrella.[1]"

      1 http://watchout4snakes.com/creativitytools/randomword/randomwordplus.aspx

  3. Doesn't matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is brilliant! Just accuse them of a GPL violation and they'll be forced to prove their source code is different by revealing it.

    It's a wonder nobody has done this before.

    1. Re:Doesn't matter by gomiam · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I guess the judge would usually consent, in that case, to reveal the code to experts under condition of secrecy. That way, the experts would be able to check whether the copyright allegations have any base and the code, should it not be infringing, would still stay closed.

      Even if the code was considered infringing, it would only need to be revealed to those customers that asked for it before three years (since the ruling in this case?) have passed. Unless one of those customer asks for it and decides to publish it, the code would still be unavailable.

    2. Re:Doesn't matter by bws111 · · Score: 2

      Correct. This is what was done in the SCO v IBM case. SCO asked the court to force IBM to turn over all the source to AIX. IBM agreed, but only on the condition that neither SCO nor SCO's counsel had access to it.

    3. Re:Doesn't matter by draconx · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Even if the code was considered infringing, it would only need to be
      revealed to those customers that asked for it before three years (since the
      ruling in this case?) have passed.

      IANAL, but I don't understand where this comes from. TFA says that code
      in question is licensed under the GPL, version 2. According to section 3
      of the license, distributing binaries requires you to do either:

          (a) "Accompany [the binary] with the ... source code ...."
      or
          (b) "Accompany [the binary] with a written offer, valid for at least three
                  years, to give *any third party*, for a charge no more than your cost
                  of physically performing source distribution ... the corresponding
                  source code ..." [emphasis mine]

      (there is an option (c), but it is unlikely to apply in this case).

      Note that if you choose option (b), then you must distribute source to anyone
      who asks. Moreover, Red Hat alleges that Twin Peaks Software has done neither
      of these things. If Red Hat is correct, then Twin Peaks Software has no
      right to distribute any binaries at all, until they have their license
      reinstated by Red Hat.

    4. Re:Doesn't matter by gnasher719 · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is brilliant! Just accuse them of a GPL violation and they'll be forced to prove their source code is different by revealing it.

      Nobody can force you to release any source code, GPL or not. However, copying source code against GPL rules when the GPL license is the only thing that gives you permission, is plain old copyright infringement. And since this company just badly upset the copyright holder, they will have to pay for this.

  4. Prior Art? by conspirator23 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If the Twin Peaks patent is on GPL-violating code, then that would seem to me (IANAL) to be a clear and direct example of prior art. You'd have a case of an entity stealing work, then patenting it, and then attacking the people they stole from. That could be an incredibly embarassing thing for Twin Peaks. OTOH, if the GPL infringement is on unrelated code, then I would imagine that there could be seperate verdicts that each could be found guilty on. The question there would be: Are the damages comparable enough to force a settlement?

    1. Re:Prior Art? by bwcbwc · · Score: 2

      In the first case: Not just prior art. Unclean hands and a few other "technicalities" come to mind. (IANAL)

      In the second case: offense can be defense. One way to force someone to the settlement table on the original suit is with counterclaims.

      --
      We are the 198 proof..
    2. Re:Prior Art? by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Informative

      The GPL code in question is only to make the filesystem available to the operating system and is part of the code that constitutes the patented filesystem in question. It is basically mount instructions to put it as simply as possible. Twin Peaks could rewrite their own implementation of this avoiding the GPL problems if they have the expertise to do so.

      The real significance here might be that because the two are related but not the same, an award for one could be equal to an award for the other meaning either company is out only the amount of lawyer fees in the end. This less then zero sum gain potential could very well be the cornerstone to working some sort of deal out. This could work out to some agreement where in exchange for open sourcing the file system, Red Hat agrees to pay a royalty from it's enterprise implementations of the filesystem and works with twin peaks to develop a revenue stream from the open source uses of the filesystems (support and development).

      I can't find any gpl version on the mount.mfs program that is supposed to be embedded within the filesystem but if it is GPLv3, their defense to the copyright claim could hurt their patent claim in the process because of the patent provisions. Of course that could lead to the same old FUD claims of the GPL poisoning and stealing code and so on. With windows 8 comming about and renewed talk of linux on the desktop, I have been waiting on something like this to come along and shoot the linux troops in the foot.

    3. Re:Prior Art? by rgbrenner · · Score: 2

      The patent suit brought by Twin Peaks is on the Mirror Filesystem.

      Twin Peaks provides an implementation of it that includes a mount utility.

      Red Hat is saying portions of Twin Peaks' mount utility was copied from mount, which RH owns the copyright to.

      Even if Red Hat wins their copyright claim, they could still lose on the patent infringement claim.

    4. Re:Prior Art? by rgbrenner · · Score: 2

      Then they just have to convince the court that the damage from their actions is much smaller than the damage by RH

      This is a good point.. what are the damages to RH for a utility they give away for free?

    5. Re:Prior Art? by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, the GPL doesn't work like this. Having violated the GPL on this code, Twin Peaks are no longer licensed. They cannot reacquire a license simply by coming back into compliance. They need to explicitly be relicensed by the copyright holder (Red Hat), who are not likely to do so in this case.

      It has been the norm for the resolution of GPL violations that the violator comes back into compliance and then is relicensed, because Free Software organizations are generally more interested in cooperation than conflict, but there is no legal requirement for Red Hat to follow this norm.

      You can read the GPL here:
      http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.html
      http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.html

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    6. Re:Prior Art? by jbo5112 · · Score: 2

      While RH does give the product away, it does so in such a way that it encourages others send them improvements, which then encourages people to buy their software and services. For being Linux, Red Hat products aren't cheap.

      A second potential damage is that someone steals RH software, patents their own little version and sues the original author. If there is a copyright violation, Red Hat may claim that Twin Peaks was only able to develop the patent because of the money from stolen software, whether it was just potential future income or actual payments.

      Red Hat has asked for a permanent injunction against software that violates a copyright. Unless Twin Peaks decides to comply with the GPL, which would render any covered patents useless against RH, I wouldn't think it matters that the software is free. If they do open their mount under the GPL, it appears that would affect most of the patent. I do not have time to make a lot of sense out of something so poorly written (nor have I looked at the internals of mount and file system software), but most of the claims mention mounting or physical media devices.

    7. Re:Prior Art? by DRJlaw · · Score: 2

      No, the GPL doesn't work like this. Having violated the GPL on this code, Twin Peaks are no longer licensed. They cannot reacquire a license simply by coming back into compliance. They need to explicitly be relicensed by the copyright holder (Red Hat), who are not likely to do so in this case.

      That is only under GPL v3. GPL v2 contains nothing which precludes becoming relicensed by coming into compliance and obtaining another 'downstream' license. Nor does the copyright holder have the right to terminate any license obtained by an entity that was formerly not in compliance. You'll notice that the procedure you describe is very explicit in the v3 license. The v2 mentions termination only twice, in section 4, and section 6 is quite clear that the recipient is automatically granted a license.

      Licenses are to be construed strictly against the drafter, and so forth...

    8. Re:Prior Art? by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 2

      OK, it looks like you're correct on that.

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
  5. Genius of the GPL revealed once again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Laugh all you want, but RMS keeps getting proved right over and over about Free Software.

    1. Re:Genius of the GPL revealed once again by Galestar · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Nearly all Android users do not care about the Linux kernel being open.

      Its not about the user caring, its about the handset manufacturers caring.

      --
      AccountKiller
  6. Re:Free publicity! by sjames · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Not necessarily. It is likely that Twin Peaks kept it under their hat until Red Hat's deeper pockets were firmly committed.

  7. Re:Is every patent lawsuit a patent troll. by sjames · · Score: 2

    Most software patent suits ARE trolls. Enough that it's a reasonable enough default opinion unless/until proven otherwise. The ones involving a non-practicing entity are the most obvious of them, but sometimes a practicing entity trolls as well.

  8. May infringe by Mordocai · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Doing some VERY basic binary comparison between their mount.mfs binary and one of Redhat's mount binaries I would say there is nothing that says straight out one way or the other. There were definitely some differences (licensing crap all through twin peak's binary for instance, trying to catch if you run it and have no license) and some similarities, but it isn't enough for me personally to say for sure. I'd be going after looking at TwinPeak's source, but that's probably what they'll end up doing anyway.

  9. we need a simple law that says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    if you do not use or license your patents within the first year of aquiring a patent then the patent is no longer valid. PERIOD! Having worked in the patent office and see all the patent holding companies that just sit on patents to sue people, it is time we ended this. Call it the use it or lose it law.

    1. Re:we need a simple law that says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That is wrong on so many ways.

      - most of the time it takes years before the usefullness of an invention is appreciated
      - software being an exception but mosts inventions take more than one year to copy and bring to market
      - You can't license if nobody comes and wants to license your patent.
      - interested companies would just have to collude and hold still for one year to invalidate patents from small scale inventors who can't bring it to market alone

  10. Re:Clause 8? by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's a little more sticky for Twin Peaks than that. The geographic limitation would prevent them from distributing their software under GPL anywhere where they assert a patent right. So to comply they would have to grant a royalty free license to all (including Red Hat) OR just never sell the product again.

    They would at least have to review their codebase and carefully purge all signs of GPL code to get back in business, but would still have to settle the past infringement.

    Typically in GPL violations, the infringer is given the opportunity to cure the infringement without going to court, but then there isn't usually a patent suit in play.

  11. Actually, the GPL writers thought of this. by KingAlanI · · Score: 3, Informative

    Both A and B include the clause "on a medium customarily used for software interchange".

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.