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Ask Slashdot: How To Prove IT Knowledge Without Expensive Certificates?
An anonymous reader writes "I'm starting my Ph.D in psychology this year and plan to finance this period with IT freelance work, mostly building websites with Drupal and setting up Linux networks, servers, etc.. Now I have a little problem: Since I never studied ICT nor followed a course that resulted in a certificate, I can only prove my knowledge by actually doing stuff or showing what I've done so far. Unfortunately that isn't always sufficient to convince potential customers. So I was wondering what other slashdotters do. Are there any free or cheap alternatives to get certificates or other more convincing ways to prove your IT knowledge?"
Works for me every time.
Just make your own certificates, for free!
Wrong question. What you really meant to ask:
And the answer is: networking. It's free or cheap, but it's time-consuming and time-delayed.
And I consider referrals to be a special case of networking. You said you already "did stuff". If what you did was just for yourself, then you need to do it for someone else. There are plenty of non-profits (or even mom & pop for-profits) who would love some free work.
I prefer to affix the root login for their databases to my resume....tends to get their attention
CompTIA offers several free courses and tests cost ~$168, which is cheaper than most out there. Sure, it's not as renowned as it was in the 1990's, but it is still something to show worth/value (most non-tech savvy business owners won't notice the difference).
Alternately, the Linux Plus Certification 101 (LPIC) can be had for $160 and several places will offer the test for FREE several times a year.
The answer is in your post: "showing what I've done so far". If you don't have enough work to show them, then maybe you don't have the experience they are looking for.
When hiring contractors (or employees), I prefer experience over certificates and generally only glance at certs.
This post makes no sense. Is there even such a thing a Drupal cert? If there is, hardly anybody asks for it.
Seems to me like the poster thinks he/she can make big money in IT freelancing without verifiable training, or experience. I find that attitude typical of people who don't know anything about real world IT, but think it must be easy.
Take a look at sites like rentacoder, elance, and odesk. Yeah, easy to make big money in IT.
They really aren't that much for basic ones. No they aren't the be-all, end-all but they can help. They help reassure people that maybe you know what you are talking about. They also show a level of commitment on your part, that you were willing and able to study for and pass the test.
I'm not saying don't take the advice of others with regards to networking and so on as well, but some certs can help things, particularly if you are getting started, but even later on.
...has led me to believe this is a great way to go.
Honestly, if you have enough skills to support yourself through programming, why would you ever get a degree in psychology, especially a Ph.D.? That IMHO is the road to a dead-end career path without much hope of earnings.
Ph.D.s are often only useful in academia, or in career paths where there are so many students that they need a Ph.D. to distinguish themselves from the people with "only" a masters.
Better to just get good at some programming skills in high demand (hint, don't pick "popular" and "easy" languages) and have a good career path going forward. Then you don't have to waste 2-3 years of your life to get a piece of paper that won't pay itself off in the next 10 years.
Yeah. It would be great if they were comparable.
Certs are a negative where I work (something of a red flag). We give both a written and a practical exam. Almost without exception, the cert collecting folks fail miserably. Folks with real experience ace the exams, and the rest fall in between.
Psych students are all nuts and think they will somehow figure out their own issues at school.
He's not getting a psych doctorate for the money. It's a neurotic compulsion.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I've been an Independent Contractor in IT specializing in architectural and product consultation for early phase startups and internal product start-ups and prototyping for established enterprises. And in over 10 years and never have any shortage of work.
Yet I never went to college, am self taught and have never once bothered with shelling out cash for any bullshit certificate nor do I maintain any sort of web presence or "portfolio"
I merely have a resume on Craigslist, which most comment on being rather impressive and features some pretty big names and interesting projects.
In all the years I have been doing this, even when I was first starting out -- I obtained my work by being able to describe highly advanced yet exceedingly efficient solutions to my client's seemingly complex problems.
Of course, sometimes, descriptions aren't enough -- on occasion you will need to provide a proof of concept, the time for which you should be compensated for -- if successful in proving your point that is. For instance, to win a contract with a client to build a new social music service, I spent a week creating a prototype site out of my proposed frameworks and specifications featuring streaming on-demand music to an spider-friendly HTML5 AJAX UI with no plugins aside for degradation for archaic browsers with demonstrated mobile browser compatibility as a technical proof. That went over very well and I'm presently building the real deal.
Of course, offering proofs of concept might not work if you're looking for a rank and file job -- but, in any technical interview, the white board is your friend. You should always make a point to get up and draw out what you're talking about. You'd be surprised how effective a back of the napkin diagram can be in making your case. And it allows you to make a presentation and thus, take charge of the interview room.
But in the end, it all hinges on you being able to identify the problem and compose a compelling if not novel solution on the fly. I've found that there's not a great many that can do that, especially while under pressure in an interview room.
Have a few of your past happy clients write you a reference and offer to have them call your prospective clients. You can also add some testimonials to your website. If you're good people will also refer you to their associates. Build a reputation.
1) User groups, conferences: network network network
2) Volunteer to speak, and put that up on your blog
3) Oh yeah, start a blog. Blog regularly
4) Build your own sites/sample sites
Good approach to getting work: build site, find clients later. Most websites aren't that different. Pick an industry (say, air conditioning repair). Build a generic air conditioning repair site. Then go pitch it to those businesses (Google and start with the ones with current ugliest site); they'll always have you make customizations.
The best thing about a boolean is even if you are wrong, you are only off by a bit.
I couldn't agree with you more, this has been my experience as well. The more certifications you have, usually the less qualified you are with a few exceptions. Some certs such as CCIE still mean something.
Since when do IT Trade/Tech schools give you real knowledge? Nearly every applicant I've met who's been to one thinks he has real knowledge until you ask him to answer a real world question. The few who know the right answers generally knew the answers before they went to school for the paper.
But who is writing the exams? If its all self taught people, then you're in a self-reinforcing stereo type situation.
Certs are an indicator that someone can learn information in a formal setting. There are benefits to this over someone who learned as they went, from a book, or from a website. How do you know they actually know industry standards, best practices, and are going to give you a quality product at the end of the day.
That's not to say that everybody with a certificate is the best candidate, that's as far from the truth as the reverse. I've held several certificates over the last number of years, some I've renewed (GIAC) and some I have (various MS certificates), based on what position I'm in. If someone shows me that they hold a GIAC certification, I'm going to move them to the "interview/test" pile assuming they have some working experience as well. If they don't, I'm going to study their resume a bit closer before I make that decision.
Good project worth a lot and tells a lot about its author.
I used to teach a course in Grid/distributed computing in our local IT College, but after putting up with the stupidity of the students for two years I stopped. This was a side project where I wanted to give something back, not my main finance source, but I just couldn't cope with last year sysadmin/systems engineers struggling with linux command line. I mean that it was as bad as unpacking their tarballs exclusively with double clicking on it on the desktop. I did try in the second/third iteration to pre-empt it a bit by doing a few first weeks basic shell programming tutorials, but there was no foundation to build on and I didn't have the time to teach a whole seat if courses from scratch so I stopped the course although they still ask if I want to return every year.
I've seen the same in other universities too, the people who are excellent were already before entering and have just hoend and extended the skills. Who enter blank rarely make out as anything useful...
Education in many countries, especially at the PhD level, is free. There may not always be grants available or other research or teaching positions on offer to pay the bills, leaving the student rather short of cash. Why do you assume that a PhD student has lots of income to invest in certs?
Read again. The poster noted his verifiable experience: "I can only prove my knowledge by ... showing what I've done so far."
This seems blatantly obvious to me. Forget any psych certs and licenses. You can do IT work without them, and you can do the same in the psych field. Just don't lie about your qualifications.
Most psych patients won't give a damn about your qualifications anyway. All you need to do is listen to your patients. Psych patients don't feel better because they talk about things. They feel better because someone is listening to them about their problems. If patients have initial problems talking, just stay quiet, and stare at them with a puppy dog look. This shows your devotion, and that you are so interested in them that you are willing to wait for them to talk. Take notes. Before each session, read the notes and bring up topics during the session. This, again, shows the patient that someone is interested in their problems. Psych therapy is a long process, so you can always shove off difficult issues to follow-up sessions. If you are lucky, the issue will take of itself.
Now imagine if IT was like that! In a heated meeting about bugs and missed deadlines, just say something like:
"Now I feel anger here. It is really important for all of us to recognize that there is anger here, and we need to accept the presence of anger. There are issues here and we are not all happy about them. But we do have to accept that we cannot always be happy all the time. Not being happy is part of being a human being. Now about the system having bugs, bugs are an inherent part of programs. If it didn't have bugs, it wouldn't really be a full living program. By having bugs, the program is just completing the totality of its existence. And as to the deadlines, sometimes we are just being too hard on ourselves . . . "
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Considering what you're about to do for 4+ years, maybe you should treat this as a psych problem!
It's more like a marketing problem... if you need the certificates to market yourself, and a business tradeoff regarding the cost.
Getting the certs might have a high upfront price, BUT that price might be worth it, if you get more business faster as a result of having it.
did i get it?
You did, but I'm still a bit dubious about your actual first post skills. Do you have a certificate or something to show for it?
Wrong question. What you really meant to ask:
The one time there is actually insightful comment on Slashdot, it's modded interesting.
why would I hire a hobbiest thats majoring in a totally different subject?
I can hire a IT pro for a bag of peanuts in this day and age, and you want me to waste time on hobby hour?
heh
Believe it or not, your prospective clients will probably not ask about your certifications at all. Your experience may differ but while I have five certifications and a technology-related masters degree, I have not had any questions from prospects about certifications or education during my entire career (as far as I can remember, anyway).
As other commenters have mentioned, shows of previous work and references will probably yield the most benefit in winning new clients. In my experience, getting new business from smaller clients is more about networking and building relationships than anything else. Even though I encourage clients to look at my previous work and speak to references, the smaller clients pretty much never take me up on it. Larger firms tend to have a more conservative, structured, and objective approach to engaging new vendors, however.
That said, some certifications aren't too expensive. CompTIA is a lower-priced option, though not exactly cheap (http://certification.comptia.org/Training/testingcenters/examprices.aspx). If you think getting a certification might help, maybe consider getting something like Linux+ and/or Network+. Both credentials require one exam.
In your situation, it might make sense to seek a part time job or contract somewhere, rather than run your own business. If you have your own company (even for those of us who are highly experienced), you will likely burn a lot of time trying to snag new business. The nice thing about working for someone else is that you are earning money for all your effort, which is why I think working for the man might be best for you -- your time to dedicate to this job will be limited.
Best of luck in your work and your studies!
Mike
I'm sorry, but this is terrible advice. I routinely hire programmers and designers both in person and using internet remote worker service and let me tell you that nothing puts me off quicker than some crap (and if you put 10-15 together in a week, they're going to be crap) websites that somebody points to and says "look I did those websites." This provides no context and pre-supposes that I, the potential employer, am an idiot.
Anybody who really knows anything in this industry can do some combination of two things:
1. show a portfolio of projects done over time
2. be able to discuss, in depth, details about each of the projects
#2 without #1 is fine, as it takes about 2 minutes of questions for me to see if the person is full of it or not. #1 without #2 is "ok" if the projects are sufficiently complex that I can uniquely identify the person's style and contribution, but this is rare.
a plate full of "demo" websites means that the person does not have #1 and likely would pass a test at #2 - so, they get the boot.
in fact, far far far far far far far far far far far far better than your poor idea is if the person has a personal or hobby website that they have maintained over time, so that I can see their evolution and the problems they have had to solve.
"I would call this misleading. It think the quality of the people they accept to some of the schools is lackluster, but if you're a good student (i.e. one who is willing to question and go beyond the actual coursework), you can get quite a lot out of those types of schools."
I think this reply is misleading. It misses the boat in at least two ways:
First, the quality of the people they accept is completely irrelevant. The quality of the people they graduate is the only thing that matters.
But as for the second point: actually, most of them -- if you want to be honest -- are low-quality schools. They are primarily designed to milk the students for as much government money as they can, then dump them out the door.
Don't blame the students for this... the schools' advertising, promises, and application procedures are outright predatory.
Certs are an indicator that someone can learn information in a formal setting.
Not always. A lot of certs are cram-and-barf and all they really indicate is that you can hold the information necessary to pass the test long enough to pass the test. Many of the better-known certs never require any formal setting at all. And all too frequently, the information necessary to pass the test is not the information that the daily job requires. I've seen too many practice exams that focus on obscure features, decoding code that's so awful that in real life, the person inheriting it would be more likely to ignore it and rewrite it (after assaulting the original author), or revelling in quirks best left alone.
Holding a lot of certs indicates that you have an aptitude for acquiring certs, but that's not a position that's commonly hired for.
The only certs that really impressed me were the RHCE and CCNA, and that's because they closely mimic the kind of things people actually do on a routine basis and hence need to be able to do well.
Conversely, I've never seen a programming cert that impressed me, because an industrial-grade real-world software system isn't something you can whip up in a 2-hour test session - anything realistic would take weeks or longer (despite what the boss/users think). The only "cert" I'd accept for that would be experience. And people have been known to fudge on the experience.
The hard part is getting access to corpses for practice without going to medical school.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Psych students are all nuts and think they will somehow figure out their own issues at school.
That makes a lot of sense. I've often found that engineering students are shoddily put together and hope to figure out their own issues at school. Also that physics students are mostly composed from particles beyond the Standard Model and medical students are dying of cancer. English lit students can't read and communications majors tend to be deaf-mutes. Based on your shoddy understanding of logic, I'm guessing... philosophy major?
Mock the GP all you like but my Psych 101 professor basically said they occasionally do have people choose the major in an attempt at self-treatment. The professor confessed he did so himself. He said that when he came home from Vietnam he was able to go to college using G.I. Bill benefits, wasn't sure what he wanted to study and chose psychology hoping it would help him deal with his personal issues. He said it did not, that it never does, and that anyone sitting in the class thinking of going that route should save themselves some time and frustration and seek professional help now.
... why is that mother f'er shooting at me ... God is you let me survive this ... sh*t I am not going to survive this ... might as well do my "job" until then.
He was a great professor by the way. His humorous description of how he progressed through all five stages of grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance) in seconds during his first firefight was quite memorable. This sh*t can't be happening
Unfortunately that isn't always sufficient to convince potential customers.
You sure about that? Like the interviewer literally and HONESTLY said the reason you were not picked was:
Since I never studied ICT nor followed a course that resulted in a certificate, I can only prove my knowledge by actually doing stuff or showing what I've done so far
There's a lot of people looking for work... how do you know its not the bosses son who got the job or whatever, regardless of your wallpaper?
I've never had a job interview where they cared about anything other than what I have done, with THREE exceptions:
1) We only hire bachelors degree holders as an idiotic policy (back before I got my otherwise worthless degree)
2) Our contract w/ Cisco means that we "need" to hire a certain percentage of CCNA CCNP CCIE to maintain a lower contract cost or something (been there, done that, got the CCNA and CCNP, long since expired)
3) We're high tech pimps and we spend lots of money to advertise that our hos all have a certain cert... we don't care about the cert but our customers, apparently, do.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Since when do IT Trade/Tech schools give you real knowledge? Nearly every applicant I've met who's been to one thinks he has real knowledge until you ask him to answer a real world question. The few who know the right answers generally knew the answers before they went to school for the paper.
Trade schools don't teach knowledge, they teach a trade. "Why do I insert tab A into slot B? I don't know, I just do it." College, on the other hand teaches knowledge, but not a trade. They know why tab A goes into slot B, but not how to do it. If you get really lucky you get someone who already had knowledge that then went to trade school, or someone who already knew how to do something and then went to college. Me, I've been programming since 6th grade, and then I went to College.
As for the original question, I think some of the information in the question is superfluous. "How To Prove IT Knowledge Without Expensive Certificates?" is the same question as "How To Prove IT Knowledge With Expensive Certificates?" to me, as the certificates mean little if nothing to me. The reason is because I have probably a dozen certificates, many in things I have never done, simply because I studied for a test. I also have failed to get certificates in things that I have a great deal of experience in, because I knew how it really worked and didn't study for the test. So to me, a certificate is not a likely statistical indicator of knowledge of a field anyway, so with or without a certificate, you're going to have to prove your knowledge to me.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Mod parent up. Same exact thing applies with the military IT guys I've known; if the military was their sole source of knowledge, then forget it...
He manages to work trade schools and/or apprenticeships into everything, from global warming to tactics against war elephants.
Bit of a fucking loony, I reckon.
Dunno about you... but I, for one, would be very intrigued to learn how I can utilize trade schools against my enemy's war elephants. Schools are, after all, rather large objects; I always suspected there was a good use for them...
show them documentation you've written. UML diagrams, tutorials, presentations.
Everyone wants an IT specialist who can sling code, but if you can convey information effectively to help other people work better, it shows that you're focused on the bigger picture and the longer term.
Koans and fables for the software engineer
The more certifications you have, usually the less qualified you are with a few exceptions.
The primary exception to this statement is anyone who has worked as a consultant. The company I work for now is crazy about their consultants getting certifications, because it helps them convince clients that they are putting experts on their project. We know they are almost worthless, but clients like them.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
Conversely, I've never seen a programming cert that impressed me, because an industrial-grade real-world software system isn't something you can whip up in a 2-hour test session - anything realistic would take weeks or longer (despite what the boss/users think). The only "cert" I'd accept for that would be experience. And people have been known to fudge on the experience.
I have started to notice that some programming certifications are based on actual software development projects. Both Java and Salesforce come to mind. They give you a project that you should be able to complete in 4-6 months part time, and then you have to write an essay about how and why you did what you did. Although I have no idea how high their standards are.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
You insensitive clod! I freelance in IT working for a mine in Africa!
char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}";main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}
Because this is /. The stages of acceptance when put on a new software project.
1. Denial. The code can't be this bad.
2. Anger. I'm going to break all of 'old coders' fingers so he can never do this again, all his toes to just to be sure. (I've just blown anon. I've left this message in comments several times).
3. Bargaining. Let me rewrite 'core function' and I can live with the 'data model'.
4. Depression. Just shoot me, 'core function' uses 'utility function set' which is tied to 'whole mess' I'm fucked.
5. Acceptance. We'll just keep this limping along until management authorizes a complete rewrite (at this point all your fingers should be broken).
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Holding a lot of certs indicates that you have an aptitude for acquiring certs, but that's not a position that's commonly hired for.
Now you tell me - and here I thought I was on track to become one of those Certificate Authorities I keep hearing about.
My webcomic