Raspberry Pi For the Rest of Us

Evil learning by fisted · 2012-09-20 09:32 · Score: 5, Insightful

Oh no, a steep learning curve on a device which is intended to encourage learning. Seriously.

Re:Evil learning by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-20 09:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

If I'm going to teach my nephews python, I don't necessarily need them to learn all the intricacies of building and the device today. It's just an affordable platform.
I welcome this project, and fart in your general direction.
Re:Evil learning by kiddygrinder · 2012-09-20 09:45 · Score: 1

steep learning curves discourage learning

--
This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
Re:Evil learning by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-20 09:48 · Score: 1, Insightful

Well and, more specifically, "steep learning curve" != effective learning.
Most learning is done in order from simple to complex. What you're learning will always be a challenge, but sometimes unrelated barriers aren't helpful.
Re:Evil learning by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-20 09:54 · Score: 5, Insightful

You don't know what you're talking about. If your nephew has any PC built in the last 5 years to use as a client to this thing then they can run a Linux VM on it and use any number of open source tools to achieve the same thing. You don't need a Pi if you're in the west and are going to be just teaching yourself to code. If you're an engineering student and are looking at doing something cool with the USB interface *maybe* just *maybe* thats ok but you can do that with your desktop/laptop already with VM. I assure you that installing a basic Ubuntu OS on a VM is *far* easier and cheaper than purchasing a Pi. Heck - run any modern Python IDE on windows - you get a fully integrated debugger and python console. Pisses all over your fsckin' web interface. Use the Pi for teaching electronics and systems in engineering classes, for hobbyists to connect home automation and robotics, for third world/developing nations that can't afford full PCs - but its not a glorified IDE just cause you can.
I agree with the previous post - WTF is wrong with learning?
Unicycles and juggling.. thats all you modern hipster developers want..
Re:Evil learning by slim · 2012-09-20 09:56 · Score: 2

You clearly have a PC with a browser they can use. Why not give them a Python interpreter on there?
If you're worried about them breaking the PC, give them a VM.
Re:Evil learning by fisted · 2012-09-20 09:58 · Score: 1

That's mostly true for those who would quickly abandon the whole thing anyway. To me, a steep learning curve rarely played a role when i was truly interested in something. Best example is vim, i guess.

--
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
Re:Evil learning by rk · 2012-09-20 10:07 · Score: 1

I never really thought of vim's learning curve to be steep. A long curve, to be sure, but never steep.
Re:Evil learning by zaft · 2012-09-20 10:14 · Score: 2

The Cathedral and the Bizarre? Was that the sequel to ESR's "The Cathedral and the Bazaar"?
Re:Evil learning by Twinbee · 2012-09-20 10:21 · Score: 2

The difference is learning idiosyncrasies and pretty arbitrary knowledge due to the kludges and historical baggage of Linux (not saying any other OS is much better). An OS should mostly be transparent to the user, enabling him/her to get on with actually being productive.

Linux won't be around forever (at least not close to its current state), but math and science will.

--
Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
Re:Evil learning by slim · 2012-09-20 10:23 · Score: 1

Linux was a very different beast when Raymond wrote that.
Linux now is no more difficult than Windows. If you know Windows already, of course the differences are problematic. The same thing applies the other way (on Windows I always try a bunch of ERASE, DELETE, DEL commands until eventually hitting the right one).
The *one* thing that has always been tricky with Linux, is repartitioning a Windows machine and setting up dual boot. This is seldom necessary any more. Most Linux boxes don't dual boot. A Raspberry Pi certainly wouldn't. If Windows is your primary OS and you want to use Linux, VirtualBox is a better solution than dual-booting today.
Re:Evil learning by Dogtanian · 2012-09-20 10:41 · Score: 4, Funny

If I'm going to teach my nephews python
Damn you! Just one misplaced apostrophe and I could have had an amusing joke about how snakes- and python's in particular- are incapable of learning anything more complicated than Javascript.

But nooooo..... you had to be gramatically correct. Spoilsport! Where's an illiterate when you need one?! :'-(

--
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Re:Evil learning by Lennie · 2012-09-20 10:42 · Score: 1

And learning Python is also something you in a browser:
http://www.pythontutor.com/

--
New things are always on the horizon
Re:Evil learning by Hatta · 2012-09-20 10:47 · Score: 2

The *one* thing that has always been tricky with Linux, is repartitioning a Windows machine and setting up dual boot.
It's a lot easier to do this with Linux based tools than it is with Windows based tools.
With Linux: Step 1, boot a gparted live CD and shrink your NTFS partition and create an ext3 partition. Step 2, Install Linux.
With Windows: Step 1, try to find a Windows equivalent to Gparted. Difficulty, Partition Magic is discontinued. Step 2, Install Windows. Step 3, boot a live Linux CD and reinstall grub because Windows overwrote your boot manager.

--
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Re:Evil learning by slim · 2012-09-20 10:51 · Score: 2

You don't need a Pi if you're in the west and are going to be just teaching yourself to code.
I mostly agree with you, but I bet there are kids in the West who aren't allowed to screw around with Mum and Dad's PC, and the family can't afford a PC for them to mess around with.
OK, maybe $25 would buy a used Pentium. But I'd rather have a Raspberry Pi just because it's easy to carry around and I can buy storage in supermarkets.
Re:Evil learning by fm6 · 2012-09-20 11:02 · Score: 1

Putting everything behind a GUI doesn't so much flatten the learning curve as make it irrelevant, because you don't have to know as much about how the system works. Which makes the idea even dumber than you suggest.
I'm reminded of the character on the Simpsons who thought that 5+2=LO BAT
Re:Evil learning by slim · 2012-09-20 11:22 · Score: 1

I disagree. If you want to start learning a high level language, you shouldn't need to learn a bunch of other stuff first. If you want to learn that stuff, then fine. But you shouldn't need to.
If you can boot a machine and get a text editor into which you can type Python, and a simple way to execute it, that's great for learning Python.
If you wanted to learn to paint, would you insist on knowing how to manufacture oil paint, and stretch canvas? Would you refuse to learn to play a guitar you hadn't built yourself?
Re:Evil learning by fm6 · 2012-09-20 11:29 · Score: 2

If you want to start learning a high level language, you shouldn't need to learn a bunch of other stuff first.

Absolutely true. Which is why the Pi is a bad choice for somebody whose first goal is to learn a HLL.
Re:Evil learning by flimflammer · 2012-09-20 11:39 · Score: 1

Kids are more likely to quickly abandon things with steep learning curves.
Re:Evil learning by Obfuscant · 2012-09-20 11:47 · Score: 1

If Windows is your primary OS and you want to use Linux, VirtualBox is a better solution than dual-booting today.
Unless your reason for running Linux is to do processing and not just run some arbitrary piece of Linux-only software. Then you want to run as close to bare metal as possible.
Re:Evil learning by kat_skan · 2012-09-20 12:10 · Score: 4, Funny

Where's an illiterate when you need one?!

Fret not! I found one for you:

python's in particular
Re:Evil learning by ubrgeek · 2012-09-20 12:10 · Score: 2

And apparently when my dad was my age and learning it it was a long steep curve, uphill, both ways, in the snow.

--
Bark less. Wag more.
Re:Evil learning by wierd_w · 2012-09-20 12:36 · Score: 2

Runas administrator CMD.exe
Diskpart
Select disk 0
Select partition 1
Shrink desired=%AmountToShrink
Quit
Exit
Tada. Now you have %AmountToShrink disk space at the end of the drive you can invest an ext filesystem with.
(Note, you should select the partition you want to shrink. You can list the partitions for selection with LIST PARTITION.)
You may need to start from the recovery partition or install disk to futz with the system volume, as it probably has files open, and is mounted.
Re:Evil learning by TheRealMindChild · 2012-09-20 12:44 · Score: 1

Unlike myself, young folks these days aren't pinned by the constraints of a limited system. Something like the Pi is like throwing a 386 at them and telling them to do something useful with it. It is possible, and it runs a much more capable OS than the DOS I had to deal with

--

"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
Re:Evil learning by TheGratefulNet · 2012-09-20 13:16 · Score: 1

But I'd rather have a Raspberry Pi just because it's easy to carry around and I can buy storage in supermarkets.
announcing the TUPPERpi. it seals in freshness!

--

--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Re:Evil learning by c0lo · 2012-09-20 14:17 · Score: 1

And apparently when my dad was my age and learning it it was a long steep curve, uphill, both ways, in the snow.
I concur... supplementary, the wind was always blowing in your face.

--
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
Re:Evil learning by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-20 15:15 · Score: 1

I like that! A cat scan replying to a dog tan!!
Re:Evil learning by FrangoAssado · 2012-09-20 16:02 · Score: 1

Linux was a very different beast when Raymond wrote that.
Actually, Raymond never wrote that. It was Jamie Zawinski in 1998.
Between that and writing "The Cathedral and the Bizarre" I think the AC is just trolling.
Re:Evil learning by davester666 · 2012-09-20 17:05 · Score: 1

And don't forget the shoes....namely, that there were none.

--
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Re:Evil learning by c0lo · 2012-09-20 19:13 · Score: 1

And don't forget the shoes....namely, that there were none.
Hmmm... when I started to learn, we had sort-of shoes... except they where more like thongs and full of holes... the Hollerith line of IBM fashion house.

--
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
Re:Evil learning by randomsearch · 2012-09-20 19:25 · Score: 2

> Linux won't be around forever (at least not close to its current state), but math and science will.
No, but you can bet it will outlive all of us, and hence it's worth using.
An OS should mostly be transparent to a *user*, but not to an *engineer* learning Computer Science.
RS
Re:Evil learning by jareth-0205 · 2012-09-20 21:17 · Score: 1

Oh no, a steep learning curve on a device which is intended to encourage learning.
Seriously.
You don't think it's possible for it to be too steep? Do you remember how hard it was when you started, because when I started (Sinclair Spectrum) the programming language was built right into the OS. It was immediately available when you unboxed it. I didn't know I wanted to program before I tried it, so unless it was right there I probably wouldn't have tried.
Re:Evil learning by slim · 2012-09-20 21:49 · Score: 1

If Windows is your primary OS and you want to use Linux, VirtualBox is a better solution than dual-booting today.
Unless your reason for running Linux is to do processing and not just run some arbitrary piece of Linux-only software. Then you want to run as close to bare metal as possible.
CPUs have so much virtualisation support nowadays, VM software is so mature, I think the margins are pretty small.
Re:Evil learning by slim · 2012-09-20 22:02 · Score: 1

It's a great choice for someone whose first goal is to learn a HLL, who has a TV, no computer, and $50
Re:Evil learning by mlk · 2012-09-20 22:27 · Score: 1

Given the hardware in the PI is fixed, Linux on the PI should be simple:
Take SD card, plug in, turn on
It is currently a little harder than I feel it needs to be as it adds the steps "enter username password and type 'startx'", but I'm sure that will go in time as well.

--
Wow, I should not post when knackered.
Re:Evil learning by mlk · 2012-09-20 22:29 · Score: 1

The Ubuntu Linux windows installer solves the setting-up-to-dual-boot problem nicely.
http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop/windows-installer

--
Wow, I should not post when knackered.
Re:Evil learning by mlk · 2012-09-20 22:32 · Score: 1

Why is the Pi a bad choice for HLL?

--
Wow, I should not post when knackered.
Re:Evil learning by nicomede · 2012-09-21 01:37 · Score: 2

I currently use my PI as an automatic garden watering system (using a relay and an electrovalve). The good thing is that I can remotely change the watering time by ssh to adapt to the weather (I live far from that house). Running for 3 months without a glitch so far, which shows a MTBF higher than 1000 hours. By the way, it was really fun to program in Python.
Re:Evil learning by neurovish · 2012-09-21 01:40 · Score: 1

Unicycles and juggling.. thats all you modern hipster developers want..
+1 insightful there. Kids these days.
Re:Evil learning by Urza9814 · 2012-09-21 02:02 · Score: 1

Many Linux installers have a built-in, graphical disk partitioning tool.
I used to always use Mandrake's installer (now Mandriva) when I was partitioning a disk, even if I wasn't installing Mandrake anywhere on the system, as it was just so much nicer to use. Of course, I was also about 13 at the time and not too comfortable with the command-line yet...

Re:Be nice when they deliver it. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-20 09:36 · Score: 5, Informative

If your order is through RS, cancel it immediately and order through Farnell. Farnell actually has their act together.

Set things up? by Hatta · 2012-09-20 09:36 · Score: 4, Interesting

Isn't the point of the Pi that you can just dump an image onto an SD card and have a fully working environment? Just how bad are the Pi distros?

--
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!

Re:Set things up? by Microlith · 2012-09-20 09:45 · Score: 5, Informative

They aren't. The Debian install boots directly into LXDE. The "tough" learning curve is illusory and can easily be overcome in the environment the Pi is used in without suddenly needing two computers rather than one.
Re:Set things up? by slim · 2012-09-20 09:50 · Score: 3

And why would a distro with this Web app installed be easier to set up than a distro that boots into a GUI?
And if you have something that can run a browser, why do you want to run your code on a RPi?
It's all really odd.
Re:Set things up? by Bogtha · 2012-09-20 10:34 · Score: 2

It's all really odd.

The reasons why you might want to use this make no sense whatsoever until you realise that they started with something they wanted to build and then tried to think of reasons why people might want it afterwards. It's a solution in search of a problem. They couldn't find any problems it's suited for, so they've resorted to gobbledegook for marketing.

--
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
Re:Set things up? by Hatta · 2012-09-20 10:37 · Score: 1

Are you referring to the Pi or the OS from Adafruit?

--
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Re:Set things up? by rasmusbr · 2012-09-20 10:38 · Score: 1

Another to thing to keep in mind is that the learning curve is not only a function of the inherent difficulty and amount of work involved in getting started but also a function of the difficulty in finding good tutorials and finding people who can answer specific questions. If everyone who's learning to program on Raspberry Pi is using the same stuff (Debian, LXDE, Python for example) and the same beginner's tutorial then you'll 1) get lots of feedback to the tutorial maintainers on the tutorial and 2) get users who can help one another because they're all up against the same problems and challenges.
When it comes to getting started with stuff, unity is good and fragmentation is bad. The standard free software way of doing things where there are N different distros with P different environments and Q different languages is perhaps nice for experienced people who have developed a taste, but it's certainly not ideal for beginners.
I think the number one thing that the Raspberry pi has going for it besides the low price is that there's only one (or two) hardware versions being made at any one time. I hope they'll be able to get the vast majority of beginners onto the same distro, environment and language / script language.
Re:Set things up? by jdeisenberg · 2012-09-20 11:53 · Score: 1

Exactly. Make a distribution that boots directly into Scratch or [[insert name of your favorite programming language IDE here]].
Re:Set things up? by Osgeld · 2012-09-20 17:28 · Score: 1

its more like we keep getting questions cause there isnt lego bricks for us, so we did it for everyone who couldnt boot a computer with a live cd, plug in an SD card, and copy an image with word for word instructions
I dont know if ada is good or bad, she tends to get more people intrested, but those people tend to be less willing to learn and just want magic to plug into the wall
Re:Set things up? by gl4ss · 2012-09-20 20:51 · Score: 2

gpio pins and that you can dump the machine in some other machine once it's ready.
that's the point, not much else. a more powerful arduino.

--
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.

Usability curve? by lattyware · 2012-09-20 09:37 · Score: 1

It's just a slightly different graphical environment. I think the latest versions of OSes for it have dropped having to manually do a 'startx', so there is nothing there a child can't learn by doing.

--
-- Lattyware (www.lattyware.co.uk)

Oxymoron by GigaBurglar · 2012-09-20 09:47 · Score: 2, Informative

If you're not prepared to learn Linux then your should be prepared to - give up pursuit of programming embedded/small devices.

Re:Oxymoron by slim · 2012-09-20 10:08 · Score: 4, Insightful

I don't accept that. The point of the Pi is to replicate the "turn it on and start coding" spirit that us 8 bit kids grew up with.
What a BBC Micro had, that a modern PC doesn't is this: you turned it on, and 3 seconds later there was a BASIC prompt. Page 1 of the "learn to program" book tells you to type:
10 PRINT "Hello World"
20 GOTO 10
If you screw up, you turn it off and on again, no harm done.
20 minutes later, an inquisitive 7 year old will have:
10 PRINT "Hello World"
20 c% = RND(8)
30 COLOUR c%
40 PRINT "Slim is Rad!!!!!!"
50 GOTO 10 ... and they build up from there until 11 years later they're doing a CS degree.
There's no "oh, the install is too difficult? Oh bad luck 7-year-old, you've not got it in you."
And that's what the Raspberry Pi is intending to replicate.
(But I don't think this browser thing is the way to do it)
Re:Oxymoron by Beardo+the+Bearded · 2012-09-20 10:27 · Score: 2

Infinite Insightfuls to you, slim.
I've been programming since I was eight (Coco2 and BASIC), I've got an EE degree, I'm "better than most" embedded coders you'll find, and some of the build instructions for Linux are so obtuse that I can't figure out what the fuck is going on.
So let's get the kids in on that. Right.

--

---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
Re:Oxymoron by slim · 2012-09-20 10:30 · Score: 2

I think we're agreeing with each other. You don't need to "learn Linux" to program on a RPi: that was my point. Boot, GUI, click an icon to get into your training-wheels IDE.
But tcl? EEEEW!
Scratch for 5 year olds.
Python or Ruby as a next step.
Re:Oxymoron by fm6 · 2012-09-20 11:06 · Score: 1

I don't accept that. The point of the Pi is to replicate the "turn it on and start coding" spirit that us 8 bit kids grew up with.
Huh? Have you seen the thing? It doesn't even come with a system case. This is not a turnkey system.
Re:Oxymoron by slim · 2012-09-20 11:18 · Score: 2

It doesn't *need* a case. A case would bump it over the price point.Plug it in without a case, and get coding.
In the primary school environment it's intended for (sorry, I don't know what American is for Primary School), an early "OK Kids, today we're going to make a case for our Raspberry Pi out of egg cartons" would be entirely appropriate.
I've got one on order because I need something cheap to run Logitech Media Server. I probably won't bother with a case, or if I do I'll make one out of cardboard.
Re:Oxymoron by trickydisco · 2012-09-20 11:22 · Score: 3, Interesting

It's early days yet, but this is what we're trying to develop at http://curiouschip.com/ - a self-contained modern machine that boots straight into a programming environment that promotes exploration and experimentation. We had our first prototype units on show at the Brighton Mini Maker Faire a couple of weeks ago and had an awesome reception; more details will be released in the coming weeks.
Re:Oxymoron by jareth-0205 · 2012-09-20 21:20 · Score: 1

Yeah, but it doesn't boot *into* a BASIC prompt though, does it? That first, automatic, introduction that the 80's computers had is more important than people think.
Re:Oxymoron by slim · 2012-09-20 21:39 · Score: 1

Yeah, but it doesn't boot *into* a BASIC prompt though, does it?
Depends what SD card you boot off.
Re:Oxymoron by slim · 2012-09-20 21:52 · Score: 1

Which was entirely arbitrary and can't be achieved due to taxes and shipping.
And which also led to a focus on low-cost versus quality of components.
If you want something more expensive with higher quality components, then buy one.
Raspberry Pi met its design goals.
Re:Oxymoron by galanom · 2012-09-22 04:23 · Score: 1

I was one of these kids. But the learning curve of BASIC, despite smooth, is quite short also. In short time I reached a dead-end. There was nothing more and what was there was slow beyond usefulness. All knowledge I gathered was insufficient to do something serious, and useless as Pascal, C or assembly I learned later had nothing to do in syntax or style of BASIC.
Even Pascal, which was relatively easy it was a pain in the ass with its annoying pedantic-ness and over-protectionism.
C, while steeper, did what I wanted to do, without questioning it all the time (like Pascal did) and it was worth every millisecond I spent learning it. After I passed over the learning curve I could code efficiently and get things done.
Re:Oxymoron by GigaBurglar · 2012-09-27 03:45 · Score: 1

I understand what you are saying but my point was that you won't find many embedded systems that don't run a variant of Linux. Sure the RPi might be headless for most people but if you want to pursue such a path further than the level of a seven year old - at some point you will need to learn Linux and learn it well.

Bad assumptions by slim · 2012-09-20 09:48 · Score: 1

This seems like it's based on bad axioms. "a tough learning curve due to the Linux OS"? What OS is easier? Bear in mind that the the Pi distros to be used for education will boot to a GUI.

The focus at the moment seems to be on Scratch - great for kids as young as five.

Re:Bad assumptions by scdeimos · 2012-09-20 10:08 · Score: 2

I think they meant "familiar" instead of "easy" - heaven forbid anyone should ever have to contend with anything new or different. Like you'd want to spend $150 or more to put Windows on a $25 computer, ffs, even if it had an ARM build that worked.

*Sniff* *Sniff* by CanHasDIY · 2012-09-20 09:52 · Score: 2

...

I smell me a slashvertisement...

Rather thinly veiled one, at that.

--
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese

Expensive hardware to use cheap hardware by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-20 09:54 · Score: 1

If you need a more expensive host to run the web browser to develop code for the cheap RP, doesn't that defy the entire point of being a cheap educational tool for underprivileged youth?

This sounds significantly less useful than self-hosted development. It sounds like it's inspired by Linux-phobes who are phobic for no particular reason.

Can't we ask for at least... by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-20 09:55 · Score: 1

...a decency of not programming an embedded Linux device from a Windows desktop? Seriously, what is wrong with those people?

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.

Re:Can't we ask for at least... by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-20 10:24 · Score: 2

Yes, it is -- it has a SoC originally intended to be HDMI video decoder, with various serial and GPIO interfaces exposed, and without expandable CPU bus. Just because it can be connected to a keyboard and a monitor, does not make it any less embedded.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:Can't we ask for at least... by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-20 10:28 · Score: 1

H.264 video decoder with HDMI output, to be precise.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:Can't we ask for at least... by slim · 2012-09-20 10:43 · Score: 1

I couldn't come up with a solid definition of "embedded" myself, so I asked Wikipedia, which said:
"An embedded system is a computer system designed for specific control functions within a larger system, often with real-time computing constraints.[1][2] It is embedded as part of a complete device often including hardware and mechanical parts. By contrast, a general-purpose computer, such as a personal computer (PC), is designed to be flexible and to meet a wide range of end-user needs. "
I think the Raspberry Pi is a general-purpose computer. It's running a full Linux distro. If you want to run OpenOffice on it, you can. If you want to run Quake on it, you can. If you want to call it an embedded system, give me a definition of "embedded" that fits.
Re:Can't we ask for at least... by TheGratefulNet · 2012-09-20 13:22 · Score: 3, Insightful

embedded as in controller.
you can boot and run the Pi 100% headless, have it boot right into a control program and then start watching 'pins' for changes of sensors, or spinning motors with an h-bridge or servo.
does not need even a 'proper' boot media.
and its small and runs on single voltage.
to me, that meets enough of the practical def for embedded use.

--

--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Re:Can't we ask for at least... by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-20 20:40 · Score: 2

I do embedded systems development for loudspeakers and audio equipment, and the hardware I use at work is full of SoC-based boards similar to Pi, minus HDMI, plus ADC, DAC, SRCs and analog circuits.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:Can't we ask for at least... by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-20 20:46 · Score: 1

It can boot headless
Actually no, it can't, because after BIOS reset you have control over boot device order, because console redirection will be disabled. All PCs must be configured with a keyboard and a monitor before anything can be done "headless", and the same procedure has to be repeated if by any chance BIOS is reset, ESCD is erased, or CMOS battery died (yes, they ALL still have those things).
How do you think, I know that? Because once I had to modify one of PC BIOS'es to actually work on an embedded x86-based device, one that had no VGA-compatible controller. And yes, BIOS vendor claimed that their BIOS was "embedded-ready". And no, it was not.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:Can't we ask for at least... by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-20 20:47 · Score: 1

you have control over boot device order
Should be: you have no control over boot device order

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:Can't we ask for at least... by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-20 21:01 · Score: 1

All smartphones are, among other things, embedded controllers -- they control the phone.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:Can't we ask for at least... by drinkypoo · 2012-09-21 00:31 · Score: 1

Actually no, it can't, because after BIOS reset you have control over boot device order, because console redirection will be disabled. All PCs must be configured with a keyboard and a monitor before anything can be done "headless", and the same procedure has to be repeated if by any chance BIOS is reset, ESCD is erased, or CMOS battery died (yes, they ALL still have those things).
Not necessarily. Some BIOSes default to not wait if there's no attached keyboard, and will boot off just about anything you have connected to a typical location (floppy on first connector, first hard disk found with an active partition, USB storage, USB CD, fucking USB ZIP, whatever.) The ones that demand a keyboard can be fooled.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Can't we ask for at least... by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-21 18:24 · Score: 1

Have you even read what I wrote? I never mentioned anything about keyboard errors preventing booting.
All modern BIOS'es CAN'T BE CONFIGURED WITHOUT A MONITOR AND A KEYBOARD from their "full reset" state. They will always try to boot only from whatever looks like a CD or, if absent, the first hard drive, will have RAID disabled, SATA controller set to Windows XP mode, and all kinds of other options set to very "non-embedded" values. Oh, and have I mentioned that even if you managed to boot, you can't access BIOS configuration because even though you can access ESCD in flash and CMOS RAM, most formats are undocumented, randomly change between BIOS versions, and nearly impossible to reverse engineer?
This is why "crash cart" (or a ridiculous remote-controlled VGA+keyboard hardware emulators lovingly connected to every computer) is absolutely unavoidable even in the most modern datacenters.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:Can't we ask for at least... by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-21 18:26 · Score: 1

Changing BIOS settings from the default is necessary to operate the system in a headless mode. And changing BIOS settings from the default is impossible on a headless device. That makes it absolutely necessary to have monitor and keyboard to do any maintenance on those "headless servers".

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:Can't we ask for at least... by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-23 15:28 · Score: 1

THERE IS NO NEED TO CHANGE THE BIOS SETTINGS FROM DEFAULT TO RUN HEADLESS!
And it will run SATA controller in Windows XP mode. I guess, it counts as "running".

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.

Re:Non-Coders Shouldn't Write Code by ilikenwf · 2012-09-20 10:07 · Score: 1

Ha! Beat me to it.

Apparently, non-coders (aka mostly stupid people) shouldn't write code. Though, in truth, learning to code is something that about anyone should be able to do.

Re:Be nice when they deliver it. by neurojab · 2012-09-20 10:14 · Score: 4, Informative

+1 to the parent.

RS does not have any Raspberry Pis... Newark/Farnell/Element14 have them. I cancelled my RS order and got it in 4 days from Newwark. Newark is showing 100 in stock right now.

Happy 15th Aniversery! by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · 2012-09-20 10:15 · Score: 4, Funny

Slashdot: news for non-nerds that don't want to have to deal with linux.

--
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.

Re:Be nice when they deliver it. by Beardo+the+Bearded · 2012-09-20 10:22 · Score: 2

I concur. I got mine from Newark in 2 days and I'm in Canada. This was just a couple of weeks ago.

Shipping to Canada is $12 including duty and brokerage, so make sure you call them to place the order vs. going online. It's $24 to ship if you use the online method.

--

---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.

Re:Raspberry PI isn't Android, iOS or Windows Phon by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-20 10:26 · Score: 1

good

Web IDE

lol wut

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.

Re:Raspberry PI isn't Android, iOS or Windows Phon by slim · 2012-09-20 10:35 · Score: 3, Insightful

The Raspberry Pi isn't an Arduino either. It's not "embedded".

The whole point of the Pi is that it's a fully-fledged standalone system (once you add keyboard/monitor/mouse) - but cheap and robust.

The idea is that a schoolkid -- even one from a family that's not wealthy - can have a Raspberry Pi of their own do mess with as they please. Depending on the distro, it boots to a GUI, you can go straight into an IDE, and if you screw anything up it's easy to start again from scratch.

IPython Notebook by braddock · 2012-09-20 10:50 · Score: 1

Sounds exactly like IPython Notebook, which is awesome in power and ease of use.

Raspberry tincture by KiloByte · 2012-09-20 10:52 · Score: 3, Funny

I've only been waiting TWELVE weeks for the delivery of my Pi.

That's about right: take 1kg raspberries, 0.5kg sugar, 0.5l 95% alcohol, put into a jar. Four months later, filter out the fruit (give it to your mom/wife/grandma for a cake, or whatever). Let the liquid sit for eight more weeks. Filter again, pour into bottles. Ready to drink.

This one is so much simpler than my family's usual tincture recipe that takes multiple steppings and eight months, and for raspberrries, gives good results.

--
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

Re:Raspberry tincture by KiloByte · 2012-09-20 13:19 · Score: 1

Er, s/four months/four weeks/, sorry for breaking the joke.

--
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

Faulty premise by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-20 11:09 · Score: 1

The premise of the article appears to be that
A) A Linux distro that boots into a graphical interface is hard to learn
B) Kids who can learn Python can't figure out how to use LXDE.

Both of these ideas are, well, silly. The solution to these "problems" are actually more complicated than just using a plain Raspbery Pi.

Re:Raspberry PI isn't Android, iOS or Windows Phon by LandoCalrizzian · 2012-09-20 11:15 · Score: 1

The Raspberry Pi isn't an Arduino either. It's not "embedded".

The whole point of the Pi is that it's a fully-fledged standalone system (once you add keyboard/monitor/mouse) - but cheap and robust.

The idea is that a schoolkid -- even one from a family that's not wealthy - can have a Raspberry Pi of their own do mess with as they please. Depending on the distro, it boots to a GUI, you can go straight into an IDE, and if you screw anything up it's easy to start again from scratch.

You are correct that the PI itself isn't a true embedded system like the Arduino but the site references Adafruit. Adafruit's whole business model is based around the maker community and they have step by step tutorials for embedded programming w/ the PI.

browser-based programming open source project by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-20 12:48 · Score: 1

I received a my Rasp Pi in the mail a few months ago. It is a bit underpowered for IDE programming, and no way a beginner will use the command line. Scratch comes preinstalled and seems to be what most kids use. Python with an IDE is preinstalled too and is fine, but it's hard to do anything except console apps. I think kids like to see graphics, colors, and maybe write a game, right? Running apache, and likely php for this WebIDE is a bit much for the Pi. Things will be sluggish.

To my surprise, the Pi comes with a very capable HTML5 browser called Midori, which seems to run OK. To support the Pi and re-live my fun days of learning to program on TRS-80s (see "slim" above) I started an open source browser-based programming environment (https://github.com/tbensky/pi80) that uses Javascript in the browser as "the language," but js is kind of ugly and awkward for the beginner. So, the project has a preprocessor that tames javascript down a bit, to make it more like BASIC--gets rid of the { and } and other unnecessary punctuation. You can jump right in and write a single line that draws a circle or prints text to the screen, all in the browser. Trying to make it better--anyone want to help out? Try it here: http://www.codebymath.com/pi80/.

Re:Raspberry PI isn't Android, iOS or Windows Phon by TheGratefulNet · 2012-09-20 13:20 · Score: 1

it has semi easy i2c and spi. that almost counts for embedded these days. and somewhat easy onboard serial, as well.

--

--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."

Huh? It is designed to teach kids programming by krelvin · 2012-09-20 13:45 · Score: 1

The whole point (from the Raspberry Pi Foundation point of view) is to teach kids programming?

You get a RPi, with a SDcard already with the OS on it, plug it into the monitor, keyboard and mouse and go.... Covering all that up with a web interface which just adds another layer of stuff doesn't make sense. Personally, I prefer to use it command line, no GUI and get right into code.

As for delivery... if you are still waiting for one, you bought it from the wrong place. You can order them now and get them in a week or less. I got one in 3 days.

BTW I don't speak for the Foundation...

Its easy to get working; ships (relatively) fast by StealthHunter · 2012-09-20 13:57 · Score: 3, Interesting

I ordered my Pi from Element14 on Aug 14th and it shipped on Aug 28th. I don't know what you are doing wrong such that you haven't received yours yet.

Once my Pi arrived, I downloaded an SD card image, wrote it to a card using dd, added power to the Pi and everything worked straight away. The parts that took the most effort were retrieving my spare cell phone charger and finding an HDMI cable to connect it to my TV.

Where is all the hate coming from?

Re:Be nice when they deliver it. by amonlee · 2012-09-20 15:14 · Score: 1

just waiting for too long, and was informed to wait for another 8 weeks. Now I cancelled order from RS and re-ordered it from Element 14 Australia which has same day despacthing service here.

The magic of the Commodore 64 by Spectrumanalyzer · 2012-09-20 18:29 · Score: 1

Was that you just turned it on, and with no complex setups - you could code anything you want and save your work straight away. I still have a SX-64 for that very purpose. Sure, I could download and IDE with all kinds of complex setups, libraries, variables from hell and beyond, and pre-window code and +++++++ libraries I have to know by heart before I can even get that far, but it KILLS the instant idea and the moment that "not everyday coders" would have. Here's an example. I was faced with a question yesterday, Im an old 64 Assembly coder, and I saw a string I had a theoretical solution to Decrypt in my head. But I ended up downloading all kinds of programming languages, just to find out that I either needed some extra dev-kit of some sort, or a 100 other co-dependencies just to make it work, by the time I got that up and running - my personal gusto and "buzz" was totally gone. If I had my 64 by my side here and now, problem would be solved - right there and then. (Yes, I know about the 64 emulators, I have them on my cellphone of course) :) But the point still stands. A device like the Raspberry PI - should have an EMBEDDED, possibly made in assembly, entirely library free - instant programming language, ready to use then powered up. Straight away. If it was that simple, we could have the home-brew revolution of the C64 all over again, and no...I dont think "PCs built with embedded 64 would do it, like the Amiga One etc..)

We underestimate kids by randomsearch · 2012-09-20 19:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

One reason people seem not to "get it" is that we have a tendency to underestimate the ability of kids to learn things like Linux. Many primary school children are not at all phased by a Linux shell, and they're already expert in googling things and working stuff out for themselves. Perhaps because older geeks didn't grow up with the tinterweb, we can't imagine how easy it is for kids to learn geek knowledge at a young age.

All hail the coming Pi generation. I, for one, welcome our young Linux-hacking overlords.

RS

Re:Be nice when they deliver it. by Joce640k · 2012-09-20 19:59 · Score: 1

When I ordered mine Farnell quoted 3 weeks for delivery.

It arrived 8 days later.

--
No sig today...

Re:Be nice when they deliver it. by oPless · 2012-09-20 20:27 · Score: 1

I concur, RS really haven't got their act together, but they do seem to be slowly shipping to their back order list.

After I lost my Element 14 one (it got "tidied away") and found that Cool Components got some in I ordered through them.

http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/catalog/raspberry-model-p-1032.html

Next day delivery and they have cases too!

I've nothing against Farnell either, theirs came quite speedily.

Re:We underestimate kids - more than you may think by Spectrumanalyzer · 2012-09-20 20:36 · Score: 1

Kids can learn anything they want to at lightning speeds.

That is...if theyre interested, and thats the crux.

Most kids are social, and if you tell them that they should learn Linux, there has to be a reward waiting for them for doing so, if not, youll soon discover that kids are very intelligent, and ask straight away: Why? And then most adult will do adult reasoning, and explain why THEY would use Linux.

Try telling kids you do that for moral reasons, for geek reasons, and the kids will go - meh...

some of them who actually try it out, will do pretty well at it, possibly better than you ever did the first time you tried it, but then one of their buddies comes over with a USB stick or a cd with a new game, and it doesnt run. The kid gets ridiculed by his buddies for not making it work - and voila - back to basic (Windows re-installed), plays games...reward!

It's socially acceptable to be connected to Facebook and install even advanced apps on their smartphone, why? Because they can instantly get gratification by impressing their friends with something cool THEY ALSO CAN DO as well - social, everyone can install their app!

However, when do you see the kid fiddle with his Raspberry pi - and present it at school, something cool on the projector perhaps...but how many have a projector handy? How many actually wants to do what he just did in class...when it require a series of complex actions such as:

- Purchasing the unit
- Waiting forever for it
- Convincing the others that this is easy (most kids like quick rewards, making something simple that sounds complex and wows others)

If you present them with a very long technical installation procedure, this in itself may not be the reward.
I remember how I got into technology in the first place, it was actually video games.

Someone told me I could make those Arcade games I played at the corner-bar - myself - in my very own home, that triggered me. And the tool back then was a Commodore 64.

The good thing with a simple embedded system like the C-64 is that you:

1) Turn it on
2) Program
3) Run!

FUN!

How do we do that with the PI?

I have one word for this... by cbope · 2012-09-20 20:55 · Score: 4, Insightful

Lame.

I means seriously, the Pi is designed to get kids (and adults) to LEARN how a computer works and how to program the device. It's TRIVIAL to download a system image, transfer it to an SD card and boot your Pi. Hell, RS even offered to sell me a pre-formatted SD with the OS pre-installed! How hard is it to click "add one to cart", if you don't want to set up the SD yourself?!?

Seriously, the Pi is not for the iDevice consumer... it's for people who are interested to learn how things work and how to build and code stuff. Making the device idiot-proof is not the way forward.

There is not such thing as a steep learning curve. by maitas · 2012-09-20 22:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

Only lousy documentation.

"WebIDE" by gk_brown · 2012-09-20 22:36 · Score: 1

Blech. When are developers going to learn that UI complexity and the web don't mix.

Re:Be nice when they deliver it. by drinkypoo · 2012-09-21 00:32 · Score: 1

FWIW they have 0 in stock, the orders are fulfilled by another warehouse. At least, in the USA.

I was told I was getting air shipping for the price of ground but then it took regular ground time to arrive anyway.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Dumb Idea by drinkypoo · 2012-09-21 00:39 · Score: 1

The appeal of the R-Pi is that you can connect it to a display device.

Personally, I'm waiting for Android to come out for the R-Pi. They have it running but there are some problems (in networking, IIRC) and rather than get help from the community they refuse to release what they have got. The design of R-Pi may be open, but nothing else is, including the process.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Re:Cool, or by johnw · 2012-09-21 01:49 · Score: 1

Just try to see if web2py works well, it's similar.

Just taken a look at both, and apart from the fact that they both involve Python they appear to be totally different beasts. One is a web-based IDE and the other is a web application development framework. Where's the overlap?

Roku is very similar by kriston · 2012-09-21 02:15 · Score: 1

The Roku is a very similar device and might be more accessible to people who want to develop content-bearing channels.

--

Kriston

Re:Non-Coders Shouldn't Write Code by Urza9814 · 2012-09-21 02:19 · Score: 1

So, in your mind, there is no difference between:

1) A young child in school and a 40 year old accountant
2) HELPING someone do something and REQUIRING them to do something
3) A child's toy computer and a corporate production server

There's a COLOSSAL difference between making it easier for people who want to code or who may be interested in coding to do so and requiring people who have already determined they have no interest in coding to code.

Waiting... by mchappee · 2012-09-21 03:02 · Score: 1

Since this is the "waiting for Pi" gripe thread I'll throw in. I ordered 2 from Allied Electronics on 8/14. Booooo, so many projects on hold.

--
/. finds me to be 20% Troll, 80% Funny

wrong by PurplePhase · 2012-09-21 04:25 · Score: 1

There is not(sic) such thing as a steep learning curve.

Only lousy documentation.

Lousy documentation (99.99% of what is out there) at best doesn't mitigate the original steep learning curve, at worst it makes the curve much, much steeper. Good documentation can alleviate some of a bad learning curve, but can't improve a product's design/usability.

If things were more accessible/logical to begin with then the documentation wouldn't come up as a factor at all: it would be superfluous or marketing material.

8-PP

Re:Be nice when they deliver it. by amonlee · 2012-09-25 13:43 · Score: 1

check their FAQs http://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=raspberrypi&file=questions&cm_mmc=uk-email-_-other-_-uk-250912-raspberry_pi_delay-_-0 .

Re:Be nice when they deliver it. by amonlee · 2012-09-25 13:48 · Score: 1

Ordered on Friday, got it on Monday. Thanks /.

Slashdot Mirror

Raspberry Pi For the Rest of Us

113 of 170 comments (clear)