Raspberry Pi For the Rest of Us

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Raspberry Pi For the Rest of Us

Posted by timothy on Thursday September 20, 2012 @09:30AM from the bootstraps-for-all! dept.

mikejuk writes "The Raspberry Pi might be a cheap and reasonably powerful but it has a tough learning curve due to the Linux OS it uses. Adafruit, better known for their hardware, are working on a WebIDE which you can use to program the Pi without having to set things up. You write the code in a browser and run it on the Pi using a web server hosted by the Pi. It sounds crazy but if it can make the Pi more approachable then perhaps it could turn out to be an educational powerhouse."

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Evil learning by fisted · 2012-09-20 09:32 · Score: 5, Insightful

Oh no, a steep learning curve on a device which is intended to encourage learning. Seriously.

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1. Re:Evil learning by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-20 09:39 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  If I'm going to teach my nephews python, I don't necessarily need them to learn all the intricacies of building and the device today. It's just an affordable platform.
  I welcome this project, and fart in your general direction.
2. Re:Evil learning by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-20 09:54 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  You don't know what you're talking about. If your nephew has any PC built in the last 5 years to use as a client to this thing then they can run a Linux VM on it and use any number of open source tools to achieve the same thing. You don't need a Pi if you're in the west and are going to be just teaching yourself to code. If you're an engineering student and are looking at doing something cool with the USB interface *maybe* just *maybe* thats ok but you can do that with your desktop/laptop already with VM. I assure you that installing a basic Ubuntu OS on a VM is *far* easier and cheaper than purchasing a Pi. Heck - run any modern Python IDE on windows - you get a fully integrated debugger and python console. Pisses all over your fsckin' web interface. Use the Pi for teaching electronics and systems in engineering classes, for hobbyists to connect home automation and robotics, for third world/developing nations that can't afford full PCs - but its not a glorified IDE just cause you can.
  I agree with the previous post - WTF is wrong with learning?
  Unicycles and juggling.. thats all you modern hipster developers want..
3. Re:Evil learning by slim · 2012-09-20 09:56 · Score: 2
  
  You clearly have a PC with a browser they can use. Why not give them a Python interpreter on there?
  If you're worried about them breaking the PC, give them a VM.
4. Re:Evil learning by zaft · 2012-09-20 10:14 · Score: 2
  
  The Cathedral and the Bizarre? Was that the sequel to ESR's "The Cathedral and the Bazaar"?
5. Re:Evil learning by Twinbee · 2012-09-20 10:21 · Score: 2
  
  The difference is learning idiosyncrasies and pretty arbitrary knowledge due to the kludges and historical baggage of Linux (not saying any other OS is much better). An OS should mostly be transparent to the user, enabling him/her to get on with actually being productive.
  
  Linux won't be around forever (at least not close to its current state), but math and science will.
  
  --
  Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
6. Re:Evil learning by Dogtanian · 2012-09-20 10:41 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  If I'm going to teach my nephews python
  Damn you! Just one misplaced apostrophe and I could have had an amusing joke about how snakes- and python's in particular- are incapable of learning anything more complicated than Javascript.
  
  But nooooo..... you had to be gramatically correct. Spoilsport! Where's an illiterate when you need one?! :'-(
  
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7. Re:Evil learning by Hatta · 2012-09-20 10:47 · Score: 2
  
  The *one* thing that has always been tricky with Linux, is repartitioning a Windows machine and setting up dual boot.
  It's a lot easier to do this with Linux based tools than it is with Windows based tools.
  With Linux: Step 1, boot a gparted live CD and shrink your NTFS partition and create an ext3 partition. Step 2, Install Linux.
  With Windows: Step 1, try to find a Windows equivalent to Gparted. Difficulty, Partition Magic is discontinued. Step 2, Install Windows. Step 3, boot a live Linux CD and reinstall grub because Windows overwrote your boot manager.
  
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8. Re:Evil learning by slim · 2012-09-20 10:51 · Score: 2
  
  You don't need a Pi if you're in the west and are going to be just teaching yourself to code.
  I mostly agree with you, but I bet there are kids in the West who aren't allowed to screw around with Mum and Dad's PC, and the family can't afford a PC for them to mess around with.
  OK, maybe $25 would buy a used Pentium. But I'd rather have a Raspberry Pi just because it's easy to carry around and I can buy storage in supermarkets.
9. Re:Evil learning by fm6 · 2012-09-20 11:29 · Score: 2
  
  If you want to start learning a high level language, you shouldn't need to learn a bunch of other stuff first.
  
  Absolutely true. Which is why the Pi is a bad choice for somebody whose first goal is to learn a HLL.
10. Re:Evil learning by kat_skan · 2012-09-20 12:10 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Where's an illiterate when you need one?!
  
  Fret not! I found one for you:
  
  python's in particular
11. Re:Evil learning by ubrgeek · 2012-09-20 12:10 · Score: 2
  
  And apparently when my dad was my age and learning it it was a long steep curve, uphill, both ways, in the snow.
  
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12. Re:Evil learning by wierd_w · 2012-09-20 12:36 · Score: 2
  
  Runas administrator CMD.exe
  Diskpart
  Select disk 0
  Select partition 1
  Shrink desired=%AmountToShrink
  Quit
  Exit
  Tada. Now you have %AmountToShrink disk space at the end of the drive you can invest an ext filesystem with.
  (Note, you should select the partition you want to shrink. You can list the partitions for selection with LIST PARTITION.)
  You may need to start from the recovery partition or install disk to futz with the system volume, as it probably has files open, and is mounted.
13. Re:Evil learning by randomsearch · 2012-09-20 19:25 · Score: 2
  
  > Linux won't be around forever (at least not close to its current state), but math and science will.
  No, but you can bet it will outlive all of us, and hence it's worth using.
  An OS should mostly be transparent to a *user*, but not to an *engineer* learning Computer Science.
  RS
14. Re:Evil learning by nicomede · 2012-09-21 01:37 · Score: 2
  
  I currently use my PI as an automatic garden watering system (using a relay and an electrovalve). The good thing is that I can remotely change the watering time by ssh to adapt to the weather (I live far from that house). Running for 3 months without a glitch so far, which shows a MTBF higher than 1000 hours. By the way, it was really fun to program in Python.
Re:Be nice when they deliver it. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-20 09:36 · Score: 5, Informative

If your order is through RS, cancel it immediately and order through Farnell. Farnell actually has their act together.
Set things up? by Hatta · 2012-09-20 09:36 · Score: 4, Interesting

Isn't the point of the Pi that you can just dump an image onto an SD card and have a fully working environment? Just how bad are the Pi distros?

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1. Re:Set things up? by Microlith · 2012-09-20 09:45 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  They aren't. The Debian install boots directly into LXDE. The "tough" learning curve is illusory and can easily be overcome in the environment the Pi is used in without suddenly needing two computers rather than one.
2. Re:Set things up? by slim · 2012-09-20 09:50 · Score: 3
  
  And why would a distro with this Web app installed be easier to set up than a distro that boots into a GUI?
  And if you have something that can run a browser, why do you want to run your code on a RPi?
  It's all really odd.
3. Re:Set things up? by Bogtha · 2012-09-20 10:34 · Score: 2
  
  It's all really odd.
  
  The reasons why you might want to use this make no sense whatsoever until you realise that they started with something they wanted to build and then tried to think of reasons why people might want it afterwards. It's a solution in search of a problem. They couldn't find any problems it's suited for, so they've resorted to gobbledegook for marketing.
  
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  Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
4. Re:Set things up? by gl4ss · 2012-09-20 20:51 · Score: 2
  
  gpio pins and that you can dump the machine in some other machine once it's ready.
  that's the point, not much else. a more powerful arduino.
  
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  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Oxymoron by GigaBurglar · 2012-09-20 09:47 · Score: 2, Informative

If you're not prepared to learn Linux then your should be prepared to - give up pursuit of programming embedded/small devices.
1. Re:Oxymoron by slim · 2012-09-20 10:08 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I don't accept that. The point of the Pi is to replicate the "turn it on and start coding" spirit that us 8 bit kids grew up with.
  What a BBC Micro had, that a modern PC doesn't is this: you turned it on, and 3 seconds later there was a BASIC prompt. Page 1 of the "learn to program" book tells you to type:
  10 PRINT "Hello World"
  20 GOTO 10
  If you screw up, you turn it off and on again, no harm done.
  20 minutes later, an inquisitive 7 year old will have:
  10 PRINT "Hello World"
  20 c% = RND(8)
  30 COLOUR c%
  40 PRINT "Slim is Rad!!!!!!"
  50 GOTO 10 ... and they build up from there until 11 years later they're doing a CS degree.
  There's no "oh, the install is too difficult? Oh bad luck 7-year-old, you've not got it in you."
  And that's what the Raspberry Pi is intending to replicate.
  (But I don't think this browser thing is the way to do it)
2. Re:Oxymoron by Beardo+the+Bearded · 2012-09-20 10:27 · Score: 2
  
  Infinite Insightfuls to you, slim.
  I've been programming since I was eight (Coco2 and BASIC), I've got an EE degree, I'm "better than most" embedded coders you'll find, and some of the build instructions for Linux are so obtuse that I can't figure out what the fuck is going on.
  So let's get the kids in on that. Right.
  
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3. Re:Oxymoron by slim · 2012-09-20 10:30 · Score: 2
  
  I think we're agreeing with each other. You don't need to "learn Linux" to program on a RPi: that was my point. Boot, GUI, click an icon to get into your training-wheels IDE.
  But tcl? EEEEW!
  Scratch for 5 year olds.
  Python or Ruby as a next step.
4. Re:Oxymoron by slim · 2012-09-20 11:18 · Score: 2
  
  It doesn't *need* a case. A case would bump it over the price point.Plug it in without a case, and get coding.
  In the primary school environment it's intended for (sorry, I don't know what American is for Primary School), an early "OK Kids, today we're going to make a case for our Raspberry Pi out of egg cartons" would be entirely appropriate.
  I've got one on order because I need something cheap to run Logitech Media Server. I probably won't bother with a case, or if I do I'll make one out of cardboard.
5. Re:Oxymoron by trickydisco · 2012-09-20 11:22 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  It's early days yet, but this is what we're trying to develop at http://curiouschip.com/ - a self-contained modern machine that boots straight into a programming environment that promotes exploration and experimentation. We had our first prototype units on show at the Brighton Mini Maker Faire a couple of weeks ago and had an awesome reception; more details will be released in the coming weeks.
*Sniff* *Sniff* by CanHasDIY · 2012-09-20 09:52 · Score: 2

...

I smell me a slashvertisement...

Rather thinly veiled one, at that.

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Re:Bad assumptions by scdeimos · 2012-09-20 10:08 · Score: 2

I think they meant "familiar" instead of "easy" - heaven forbid anyone should ever have to contend with anything new or different. Like you'd want to spend $150 or more to put Windows on a $25 computer, ffs, even if it had an ARM build that worked.
Re:Be nice when they deliver it. by neurojab · 2012-09-20 10:14 · Score: 4, Informative

+1 to the parent.
RS does not have any Raspberry Pis... Newark/Farnell/Element14 have them. I cancelled my RS order and got it in 4 days from Newwark. Newark is showing 100 in stock right now.
Happy 15th Aniversery! by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · 2012-09-20 10:15 · Score: 4, Funny

Slashdot: news for non-nerds that don't want to have to deal with linux.

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Re:Be nice when they deliver it. by Beardo+the+Bearded · 2012-09-20 10:22 · Score: 2

I concur. I got mine from Newark in 2 days and I'm in Canada. This was just a couple of weeks ago.
Shipping to Canada is $12 including duty and brokerage, so make sure you call them to place the order vs. going online. It's $24 to ship if you use the online method.

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ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
Re:Can't we ask for at least... by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-20 10:24 · Score: 2

Yes, it is -- it has a SoC originally intended to be HDMI video decoder, with various serial and GPIO interfaces exposed, and without expandable CPU bus. Just because it can be connected to a keyboard and a monitor, does not make it any less embedded.

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Re:Raspberry PI isn't Android, iOS or Windows Phon by slim · 2012-09-20 10:35 · Score: 3, Insightful

The Raspberry Pi isn't an Arduino either. It's not "embedded".
The whole point of the Pi is that it's a fully-fledged standalone system (once you add keyboard/monitor/mouse) - but cheap and robust.
The idea is that a schoolkid -- even one from a family that's not wealthy - can have a Raspberry Pi of their own do mess with as they please. Depending on the distro, it boots to a GUI, you can go straight into an IDE, and if you screw anything up it's easy to start again from scratch.
Raspberry tincture by KiloByte · 2012-09-20 10:52 · Score: 3, Funny

I've only been waiting TWELVE weeks for the delivery of my Pi.

That's about right: take 1kg raspberries, 0.5kg sugar, 0.5l 95% alcohol, put into a jar. Four months later, filter out the fruit (give it to your mom/wife/grandma for a cake, or whatever). Let the liquid sit for eight more weeks. Filter again, pour into bottles. Ready to drink.
This one is so much simpler than my family's usual tincture recipe that takes multiple steppings and eight months, and for raspberrries, gives good results.

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Re:Can't we ask for at least... by TheGratefulNet · 2012-09-20 13:22 · Score: 3, Insightful

embedded as in controller.
you can boot and run the Pi 100% headless, have it boot right into a control program and then start watching 'pins' for changes of sensors, or spinning motors with an h-bridge or servo.
does not need even a 'proper' boot media.
and its small and runs on single voltage.
to me, that meets enough of the practical def for embedded use.

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"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Its easy to get working; ships (relatively) fast by StealthHunter · 2012-09-20 13:57 · Score: 3, Interesting

I ordered my Pi from Element14 on Aug 14th and it shipped on Aug 28th. I don't know what you are doing wrong such that you haven't received yours yet.
Once my Pi arrived, I downloaded an SD card image, wrote it to a card using dd, added power to the Pi and everything worked straight away. The parts that took the most effort were retrieving my spare cell phone charger and finding an HDMI cable to connect it to my TV.
Where is all the hate coming from?
We underestimate kids by randomsearch · 2012-09-20 19:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

One reason people seem not to "get it" is that we have a tendency to underestimate the ability of kids to learn things like Linux. Many primary school children are not at all phased by a Linux shell, and they're already expert in googling things and working stuff out for themselves. Perhaps because older geeks didn't grow up with the tinterweb, we can't imagine how easy it is for kids to learn geek knowledge at a young age.
All hail the coming Pi generation. I, for one, welcome our young Linux-hacking overlords.
RS
Re:Can't we ask for at least... by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-20 20:40 · Score: 2

I do embedded systems development for loudspeakers and audio equipment, and the hardware I use at work is full of SoC-based boards similar to Pi, minus HDMI, plus ADC, DAC, SRCs and analog circuits.

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I have one word for this... by cbope · 2012-09-20 20:55 · Score: 4, Insightful

Lame.
I means seriously, the Pi is designed to get kids (and adults) to LEARN how a computer works and how to program the device. It's TRIVIAL to download a system image, transfer it to an SD card and boot your Pi. Hell, RS even offered to sell me a pre-formatted SD with the OS pre-installed! How hard is it to click "add one to cart", if you don't want to set up the SD yourself?!?
Seriously, the Pi is not for the iDevice consumer... it's for people who are interested to learn how things work and how to build and code stuff. Making the device idiot-proof is not the way forward.
There is not such thing as a steep learning curve. by maitas · 2012-09-20 22:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

Only lousy documentation.