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Rover Finds Ancient Streambed On Martian Surface

sighted writes "NASA reports that its Curiosity rover mission has found evidence that a stream once ran vigorously — and for a sustained amount of time — across the area on Mars where the rover is driving. There is, of course, earlier evidence for the presence of water on Mars, but NASA says this evidence, images of rocks containing ancient streambed gravels, is the first of its kind."

37 of 180 comments (clear)

  1. Water, or some other fluid? by TWX · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There are other fluids than water that can sustain a semicolloidal solution or carry sediments. I assume that scientists now have to figure out what fluid flowed, rather than simply assuming that it had to be water.

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    1. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by jslarve · · Score: 5, Funny

      Probably never occurred to those rocket scientists and geologists at NASA. :)

    2. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What else would it be besides water? Liquid Hydrogen?

      Considering the place were Mars occupies in our Solar System, I don't see how it could be anything other than water.

    3. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by rubycodez · · Score: 4, Insightful

      it wasn't a liquid form of the atmosphere, carbon dioxide goes to solid. wasn't the 3% nitrogen, too warm. certainly not the argon, also too warm. maybe the NASA boffins know a bit more than you?

    4. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by yincrash · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Both mercury and bromine could be liquid at reasonable temperatures. Both are also just as unlikely to be in amounts to have streams.

    5. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by jhoegl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, but since humans havent been on Mars (that we know of), toxic sludge isnt one of them.

    6. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe and Oxygen is the third most abundant element in the universe. The only thing splitting them is Helium which is inert. All other things being equal the likelihood that a particular liquid at 'reasonable temperatures' is water is orders of magnitude more likely to be water than mercury or bromine.

    7. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by ackthpt · · Score: 2

      There are other fluids than water that can sustain a semicolloidal solution or carry sediments. I assume that scientists now have to figure out what fluid flowed, rather than simply assuming that it had to be water.

      Zap it with a laser and conduct at spectrum analysis on it and see what elements pop up.

      --

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    8. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by dreamchaser · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There are other fluids than water that can sustain a semicolloidal solution or carry sediments. I assume that scientists now have to figure out what fluid flowed, rather than simply assuming that it had to be water.

      I take it you've never heard of Occam's Razor. Given the composition of Mars and other evidence gathered to date water is by FAR the most likely substance to have caused this.

    9. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by RabidReindeer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There are other fluids than water that can sustain a semicolloidal solution or carry sediments. I assume that scientists now have to figure out what fluid flowed, rather than simply assuming that it had to be water.

      Zap it with a laser and conduct at spectrum analysis on it and see what elements pop up.

      Without proclaiming any expertise, I'd say that the erosion and eddy patterns left behind would be informative, since they would be indicative of the viscosity of the liquid. The pattern of sediment would drop hints towards its density. Water, CO2 and other highly-vaporous substances would not leave much, if any discernible residue or precipitate compared many other fluids. Some fluids would react with certain payload elements, other with different payload elements (in the structural meaning of the term "element", not the chemical one).

      There's a lot you can learn just ogling the pictures.

      THEN zap it with a laser!

    10. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're doing it wrong.

      Try looking at the closeup image. You know, the one that shows the nice, rounded stones. Just like the ones you'd find in a stream bed.

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    11. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by SternisheFan · · Score: 4, Informative
      Linked NASA photo's text:

      "Remnants of Ancient Streambed on Mars NASA's Curiosity rover found evidence for an ancient, flowing stream on Mars at a few sites, including the rock outcrop pictured here, which the science team has named "Hottah" after Hottah Lake in Canada’s Northwest Territories. It may look like a broken sidewalk, but this geological feature on Mars is actually exposed bedrock made up of smaller fragments cemented together, or what geologists call a sedimentary conglomerate. Scientists theorize that the bedrock was disrupted in the past, giving it the titled angle, most likely via impacts from meteorites. The key evidence for the ancient stream comes from the size and rounded shape of the gravel in and around the bedrock. Hottah has pieces of gravel embedded in it, called clasts, up to a couple inches (few centimeters) in size and located within a matrix of sand-sized material. Some of the clasts are round in shape, leading the science team to conclude they were transported by a vigorous flow of water. The grains are too large to have been moved by wind. A close-up view of Hottah reveals more details of the outcrop. Broken surfaces of the outcrop have rounded, gravel clasts, such as the one circled in white, which is about 1.2 inches (3 centimeters) across. Erosion of the outcrop results in gravel clasts that protrude from the outcrop and ultimately fall onto the ground, creating the gravel pile at left. This image mosaic was taken by Curiosity's 100-millimeter Mastcam telephoto lens on its 39th Martian day, or sol, ..."

    12. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by RicktheBrick · · Score: 2

      If it was water than there should be evidence of life even if it is only bacterial life. Even if they only discover bacterial life than some of these religious nut will have some explaining to do. We have been looking for life outside of earth for a long time now without success. I think if they do not discover some signs of either living life or past life than the whole mission will be a failure. It is just like looking for water on your property, one does not care how fancy or technological the equipment is, one only cares if they have found water. So I am hoping they discover signs of life soon.

    13. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by dreamchaser · · Score: 4, Informative

      First, water is required for life as we know it, but the presence of water is no guarantee for life. Second, this is not a mission to determine if there are traces of life or not. Curiosity is mostly a geological mission, with an emphasis of finding out if there were ever conditions suitable to sustain life as we know it That's not anywhere near the same thing as finding proof there ever was or even if there still is life on Mars.

    14. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by Tablizer · · Score: 2

      No, those flat rounded stones are the ones the Titanians tossed to watch them skip off of Titan lakes and on into space, toward Mars because of low gravity. Right diagnosis, wrong planet (or moon).

    15. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by SternisheFan · · Score: 3, Informative
      Whoops! Curiosity's real main mission:

      "Curiosity’s primary mission will be to gather geological and environmental data from the Martian surface to determine whether the planet has ever offered environmental conditions favorable for life --and collect data for a manned mission. It will do this by travelling around a particularly promising site called Gale Crater, which has three miles of exposed geological strata, or rock layers like we have in the Grand Canyon. By drilling into these rocks and sampling them, scientists can tell quite a bit about global processes that formed the planet --including the role of water in its creation and the possibility of microbial life." http://energy.gov/articles/powering-curiosity-lab-tech-goes-mars

    16. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What different position makes something other than water plausible? liquid forms of things we think of as "gasses" require it to be way out there, liquid forms of what we think of as "solids" require it to be way in there. There's a fairly small set of things liquid within the range of reasonable temperatures, and the obvious non-water choices are far more chemically complex.

      Granted, our understanding of mechanics of evolving planetary systems is rudimentary, theoretical, and subject to massive revision over the next decade as we observe more exoplanets, but Mars migrating that far while keeping its surface intact doesn't seem likely at present; while we should remain open to that possibility, Occam's razor says assume it's water.

    17. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by cbhacking · · Score: 2

      Considering that the atmospheric pressure on Mars is a lot closer to 100 milibars (1/10 of an "atmosphere") than to that of 10 [Earth] atmospheres, I think the GP's point stands. True, under certain conditions CO2 has a liquid state, but the liquid nitrogen is a far more likely explanation.

      --
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    18. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by bromoseltzer · · Score: 4, Funny

      I've never heard of Occam's Razor. What is it? I'm imagining some kind of 7 legged, supersonic, invisible shoe.

      It's an Olde English Cellphone.

      --
      Fiat Lux.
    19. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by pjbgravely · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Orange juice is mostly water, so water is still the correct answer.

      --
      Star Trek, there maybe hope.
    20. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by Dogtanian · · Score: 3, Funny

      Orange juice is mostly water, so water is still the correct answer.

      Human beings are mostly water, so I guess we can explain Mount Rushmore as "water erosion"? ;-)

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    21. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2

      They didn't, they moved right along.

      Well, a couple things to realize:

      1) They certainly did get a ChemCam measurement of at least a couple of the sedimentary outcrops -- definitely the Goulburn Scour at the landing site, and probably the Link outcrop. In the Raw Image archive it shows shots from the Cam part of ChemCam around the time they would have been departing Link, and those are used for context of what ChemCam is shooting. They've been shooting quite a bit of things with the laser, since it's "cheap".

      2) ChemCam isn't designed to find organics -- it does elemental spectroscopy, and any organics would be destroyed by the laser. And it's really best for giving you an idea of the predominant elements in a sample. John Grotzinger called it "qualitative", at least in comparison to the other instruments. Previous measurements of Goulburn showed composition consistent with the Martian basalt they see everywhere. So ChemCam measurements really don't add anything to the conclusion that water formed these sediments.

      To really determine if there are organics in the soil, they'll need SAM and Chemin. Those will come into play once they start using Curiosity's sample collection capabilities, which will be exercised soon at Glenelg (possibly before, but definitely during the months at Glenelg).

      --

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    22. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 2

      If it was water than there should be evidence of life even if it is only bacterial life. Even if they only discover bacterial life than some of these religious nut will have some explaining to do.

      They're well practiced in explaining this kind of thing away. There's plenty enough evidence on Earth to question, if not completely contradict, some of their claims.

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    23. Re:Water, or some other fluid? by RockDoctor · · Score: 2

      Does it even have to be a fluid? What about a flow of fine particles, or something like a pyroclastic flow?

      True to a point, but these generally flow for a lesser distance and result in more angular particles.

      Pyroclastics can flow for tens of kilometres, possibly a hundred kilometres (some of the Campi Flegrei pyroclastics around the Naples Metropolitan district have travelled approaching a hundred kilometres, and crossed passes of several hundred metres climb; "hmmm") though a few kilometres is more common.

      The internal structure of the particles in pyroclastic flows are generally noticeably vesicular. Vesicles are not reported, and I'd expect them to have been reported if they were seen. Also, typically, the clasts in pyroclastic flows are more angular than what I see in the pictures (though that is quite variable).

      Finally, the formation of pyrooclastic flows is quite strongly correlated with the chemistry of the magmas ; basalt is far commoner on the Martian surface, which would in itself argue against pyroclastic flows being common.

      --
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  2. Re:Rocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So we spend billions to look at dirt !!

    Look, touch, analyze. It sure beats sending 2-3 meatbags on Mars to do the same thing.

  3. Good thing we didn't land then... by ackthpt · · Score: 2

    Rover could have been washed away.

    Launch, fly 54.6 million kilometers, land, drown. No profit in that.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  4. Re:Rocks by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 2, Funny

    It sure beats sending 2-3 meatbags

    I believe those meatbags are commonly referred to as: "Ugly bags of mostly water"

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  5. Re:Soil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    no, soil contains organic remains. dirt and regolith do not.

  6. Look closely by kurt555gs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I see Thoat tracks.

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  7. Re:Rocks by z0idberg · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And imagine how much more they could get done while they sit around on that red rock waiting to die.

  8. Props to submitter and editor by elistan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nice job, submitting and subsequently accepting, an article with a link to the NASA article instead of some random blog linking to a multipage ad-heavy website that only vaguely discusses the NASA article. More of this, please.

    1. Re:Props to submitter and editor by sighted · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So glad you found it useful, and thank you for saying so. If, however - just for the sake of familiarity - people still want a link to some random guy's website, here's my latest space-related project: http://www.ridingwithrobots.org/earth Except it still doesn't have ads. Oh well, what can you do?

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    2. Re:Props to submitter and editor by bronney · · Score: 2

      What an awesome website bro. More of these please!!!

  9. Honest question by jomama717 · · Score: 2

    How naive am I to get excited at the thought we might happen upon a fossil?

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    1. Re:Honest question by DigiShaman · · Score: 2

      Well, if they find some seashells that pretty much answers that question. Anything conical or based on the golden ratio would mean that life is highly likely to be ubiquitous on planets that are wet with water and have a proper climate. Again, that's a big fat IF.

      I still have high hopes that something fossilized might be found (bacteria would still be fantastic). My gut feeling is that planet is too big to be completely sterile throughout its existence.

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      Life is not for the lazy.
  10. Re:Soil. by mosb1000 · · Score: 2

    I don't believe there is any requirement for soil to contain organic remains.

  11. Wikipedia disagrees a bit by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2

    Soil is a natural body consisting of layers (soil horizons) that are primarily composed of minerals which differ from their parent materials in their texture, structure, consistency, colour, chemical, biological and other characteristics. It is the unconsolidated or loose covering of fine rock particles that covers the surface of the earth.[1] Soil is the end product of the influence of the climate (temperature, precipitation), relief (slope), organisms (flora and fauna), parent materials (original minerals), temperature, and time. In engineering, soil is referred to as regolith, or loose rock material. Strictly speaking, soil is the depth of regolith that influences and has been influenced by plant roots and may range in depth from centimetres to many metres.

    So it doesn't have to contain organics, just has to have been affected by plant roots. Soil is almost always reffered to when talking about stuff to grow things on/in and then on land. You don't talk about the sands of the Sahara as soil after all. Or the soil at the bottom of the sea.

    But hey, go right ahead kid, show yourself to be a true dweed and insist on using words by their most strict interpretation, it will warn everyone that you are someone who hasn't any social skills whatsoever. I would warn you to now go try to order soil to fill your kids sandbox but I think it is safe to assume you never will be in that situation.

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