Slashdot Mirror
Astronomy Portfolio Review Recommends Defunding US's Biggest Telescope
derekmead writes "Data from the enormous Green Bank Telescope at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory has been used to test some of Einstein's theories, discover new molecules in space, and find evidence of the building blocks of life and of the origins of galaxies. With 6,600 hours of observation time a year, the GBT produces massive amounts of data on the makeup of space, and any researchers with reason to use the data are welcome to do so. The eleven-year-old GBT stands as one of the crowning achievements of American big science. But with the National Science Foundation strapped for cash like most other science-minded government agencies, the NRAO's funding is threatened. In August of this year, the Astronomy Portfolio Review, a committee appointed by the NSF, recommended that the GBT be defunded over the next five years. Researchers, along with locals and West Virginia congressmen, are fighting the decision, which puts the nearly $100 million telescope at risk. Unless they succeed, America's giant dish will go silent."
In your dream, everybody know they will put the money in they shitty army based on quantity instead of quality.
$10 million? I don't think that's going to feed and treat as many as you think.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Isn't that the Telescope from X-men First Class, Magneto will be very angry if you defund that
OK, I know I'm being a bit of a pedant ... but it's listening, it's already silent. ;-)
That being said, this sucks ... the amount of actual science we do seem to keep falling. But we've got money to teach Creationism in schools.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Aren't telescopes already silent?
I read the internet for the articles.
And what is basic science today will feed millions in the future. I'm not saying this particular telescope will provide the insights necessary to advance overall economic productivity, but once shut down, it definitely won't.
Not just the GBT is at risk in all of this, and honestly NRAO is being selfish and shortsighted in their responses to the portfolio review. There are 5 optical telescopes at the national observatory at Kitt Peak, AZ that are set to be divested from the NSF as well, and their loss is much, much more devastating to the amount of open-access telescope time that is set to be lost if the facilities are closed or go into closed private partnerships. The closing of the Very Long Baseline Array (VLBA) means the loss of literally a one-of-a-kind setup as well. It's bad across all parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, but the decision to stop spending money on these telescopes preserves the NSF astronomy grants program which funds a ton of astronomers, engineers, and students of all levels (myself included). The portfolio review didn't come up with any answers that we liked, but at least it's an honest estimate of what we have vs. what we expect funding wise; things are getting even worse with the upcoming budget sequestration. The big worry among astronomers is that we're returning to a time when only large institutions have access to telescope time, the exact reasoning behind the creation of the US national observatory system in the first place. Public-private partnerships will likely come around somehow to keep these facilities operating, but it's early still to know what those will entail in terms of open-access telescope time.
I'm hoping we are learning to take science (particularly space in this case) out of the 'gov't' sector...if this telescope was privately funded, they wouldn't have to be dealing with partisan crap based on ideological 'budgets'...politics...but that's the price for receiving 'public funding'...*shrugs*
There are three kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't.
I wonder what it would take to actually run one of the things? If it can be made to run itself, and access specs can be published on an official website for shared access... I can see it being totally cool to have anybody with a way to connect be able to pull their own data in about the universe.
First its cuts to fund the Platonic schools. Then its limits on what can be said at the agora (nothing bad can be said about senators or Caesar). Then its cuts to the Legion. You change their breakfast diet, then you go for lower quality swords and shields. Then you ask that they join the legion with their own sword and shield. In a few short years, you go from ruling the world, to losing Brittania, then Gaul, and finally fighting off the Hun, and ultimately watching Rome burn. But start off by being cheap with the scholars. That's right. We already know all there is to know. Oh, by the way, are those proposing cuts from Crete? They seem like Cretans.
$10 million will fund medical care for about half a dozen elderly grandparents whose children won't let them die gracefully. With that money, the hospital will be able to pay the staff and buy the drugs and equipment to keep their bodily functions active without brain control for another few weeks. No amount of money will give dear old Grandma a realistic chance of recovery, but the beeping of the monitors will comfort her family a bit, while they wallow in fear and postpone the actual grief.
There is no punchline here. The fact that the most biased party possible still has near-absolute control over a dying person's medical treatment is just sad, and it's a major reason medical costs are so high for everyone else.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Continue destroying anything science-related and pushing for more crazy religions in your schools!
Yeah because the corporate bureaucrats in the insurance companies are clearly non-biased when it comes to health care decisions.
Oh please! Stop with this delusion. The money will end up in some banker's pocket, just like every other time a cutback is made.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
But first, let's eliminate all professional sports. Trillions of dollars are wasted on it. Also, ban pets: vast amounts of money is wasted on dogs and cats. Next, eliminate all TV, radio, and the arts in general.
Once that's done, we can start looking at defunding basic research.
Good. That's a lot of money to be used to feed and provide health care to people.
In your dream, everybody know they will put the money in they shitty army based on quantity instead of quality.
You're both being silly... children and their education are what matters if the future of America has any chance. This money will be rightfully used to re-write text books to include creationism as a valid science.
What a dumb strawman. Most of what you mention is not funded by the government but through consumer spending. FAIL
Of course they're cutting funding. Green Banks has come close to finding the aliens living in orbit around a couple of nearby stars on several occasions. Damn close. The government needs to cut funding to prevent identification of the aliens --- the powers that be are aware of the aliens and know what kind of retribution they will bring on the Earth if humans become aware of "other" species existence. There has been very limited contact through Air Force satellites. The aliens have made their intentions very clear: As long as we remain a quaint backwater planet with no ability to travel off the small rock we live on, we are not a threat. As soon as we become a threat, the simplest course of action is to exterminate all life on the planet (that would be us). If Green Banks manages to identify the aliens, noone will be able to keep it quiet. It will drive interest in space exploration, funding for the space program, development of space vessels and then the genie is out of the bottle, so to speak. It cannot be allowed to happen. So, it is the Government's intention to quash funding for NRO and NASA, for the preservation of the human race.
Somehow it will get funding...
Fallacies? On slashdot? Im astonished I tell you.
They should defund the Senate Launch System instead and fund more of these science programs. (Like a few more Mars Rovers).
And the countless hundreds billions spent off the budget to fund his war to avenge daddy in Iraq and search for mobile port-a-potties err... "weapons labs".
Don't worry. Capitalism will rescue us all!
Just ask John Galt. If you can find him.
God forbid our kids might learn some real science, lets just send them to Sunday school instead.
-- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
Isn't this the way it should be working? Allocate X dollars to group. Group really needs X + Y dollars to do everything they want so they create a group to review all the projects and allocate the dollars. If you don't have enough funding, programs WILL be cut or scaled back. Save program A and program B is cut, which costs jobs around program B. Congrats though, program A's jobs are intact.
Prioritization sucks but if you don't have all the funding you need you have to make the call at some point. Having a (theoretically neutral) group review everything and make the call is better than having Congress make the decisions for you. And yeah, it would be much better for everyone if there was enough funding, that's the easy way out of this dilemma.
-- Ravensfire
"But we decide which is right, and which is an illusion"
He's long since dead. Had a pre-existing condition that his insurance company refused to pay for and he couldn't afford the costs himself.
It is in West Virginia. Let that state take on its operating costs. They can charge the West Virginia users, other U.S. users, and foreign users a fixed price or a sliding scale based on their location and usage to cover its cost. All of the researchers can try to convince their respective employers or governments that they need to cover their now higher costs of research or try to go use some other facility.
After a couple of years, it will either be making money for the state, just covering expenses, or losing money. If the later, then at some point the legislature of West Virginia can decide if the money lost is worth the prestige of the science being done in their state.
Just because the federal government doesn't want to fund it anymore is no reason that it has to shut down. Is it a sad decision? Yes. But you can't live beyond your means forever and the bills that are coming due are big and there are fewer and fewer taxpayers coming along to cover them. The trouble is that the currently popular parties don't see science as a priority. For the Rs, shoveling money to defense and fighting wars is the priority. For the Ds, shoveling money to social programs while sucking 50 to 75% of it into government bureaucracy is the priority. Neither are sound policy.
If you want to change things, get involved in politics at all levels and swamp your elected officials with your opinions. They do respond - at least minimally - to voter pressure. For the foreigners posting, if the GBT is important to you how about chipping in money to pay for its cost yourselves?
I can't help but think it would be better funded if it had some lesbians too.
Which is exactly why it's critical that the government fund as much research as possible, because it's not going to happen any other way. Put a 100% tax on every sporting event, movie, concert, and TV advertisment and put all of that towards research. That would get us in the ballpark of funding enough research.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
The aforementioned is a lot of money to be used to feed and provide health care to people. The original idiot poster did not mention government. FAIL.
I thought that the telescope at Arecibo, Puerto Rico was the US's biggest telescope. Did Puerto Rico vote for independence while we weren't looking?
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
I love all these discoveries. I'm forced to admit, however, that astronomy, per se, has never made anyone a dime. If we found evidence of alien life on a planet orbiting Sirius B tomorrow, this would not change, no matter how mind blowing such a discovery would be.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Since this subject was about government spending it was pretty much implied. Also, there is not trillions spent on sports in the US, dumbshit. It's not even within a magnitude of that. Come up with a better strawman next time.
And CMS (aka Medicare). They're just as bad as the insurance companies. They make the same kinds of decisions. Absolute refusal to pay for tests based on diagnostic code (even though the family doctor may know that person since their birth and knows the medical history).
We need birth control more than food. 6 billion people is more than enough.
Actually, capitalism on the whole, has been pretty darn good for the world.
sad but true & funny ...
We need conception control more than birth control. Stop it before it starts.
Actually, capitalism on the whole, has been pretty darn good for the world.
(Looks around)
Checks CO2 levels. ...
Checks water purity.
Checks air pollution levels.
Evaluates pesticides in food.
Looks at doctor's bill.
Yep, pretty good. If you define 'good' as maximal help for a limited class of human beings at the expense of large swaths of the population and the planet.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Having Bob Byrd or Bud Shuster's name on any project implies it had no redeeming value other than helping the pol get reelected. Thankfully both are gone.
That model has worked well. The state agency where I work charges DHS, FEMA, other states and state agencies etc. for our services. We do.a good job and do it efficiently, not wasting money, because we have to compete for those contracts. (Mostly training disaster prevention, managing disaster scenarios, and training first responders.)
Right, because socialist countries are carbon-neutral, have pure water, low pollution levels... etc.
The arts in general are the root of our modern culture. Cavemen were drawing how to hunt for future generations' reference before anyone began to write. Hieroglyphs anyone..? While I agree that pro sports go into the excessive, what is important here is to maintain a proper balance of everything rather than focusing on what is profitable for the next quarter. And make sure the real artists/scientists/engineers(...) get their fair share instead of their cut being withheld at the top. Astronomy is great and has been a daily human occupation since we could look up, other present wasteful occupations, not so much.
Nothing is enough for whom enough is too little - Confucius
maybe we are "snack food" for some other species. we already have a common thing with Vampires calling us "happy meals on 2 legs" so what do you think??
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
So this unit has a bit of history -- there used to be a 300-foot diameter transit telescope on the site, which collapsed in 1988. The Byrd telescope was an upgrade, being fully steerable and covering more of the spectrum. The location is fairly special too, it's in a radio-quiet zone with some other NRAO telescopes, and close to the Navy's radio observatory site.
The thing only started working in August of 2000, it seems a shame to shut it down after such a small fraction of its expected operating lifetime.
2*3*3*3*3*11*251
Has anyone actually READ the Review's reasons for de-funding the telescope, or did everyone who posted here, just settle for the lazy brain knee-jerk reaction response? Is there perhaps given a reality of limited funding that there are OTHER science projects that need a greater priority? Maybe the choice this time isn't between science and welfare, but science and science?
"It's a cookbook!" "A cookbook!"
And yet the US has $1.6 Billion PER YEAR going to subsidize cell phones for poor people.
Large swaths of the population that would not be alive without capitalism?
Maybe if they didn't spend so much money on other things they could afford to keep it.
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
Medicare is far worse than private insurance. They pay less across the board and refuse to allow many types of treatment. They make the VA look good.
"fund the things I like and stick it to the other people" is exactly how we got to the present situation.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Spay or Neuter your neighbor today!
People gotta be able to get through to their drug dealers somehow.
Right, because socialist countries are carbon-neutral, have pure water, low pollution levels... etc.
Don't forget the never-ending supply of buxom blondes!
Arguing about socialism vs. capitalism (or corporatism if you favor it) without talking about no vs. weak vs. strong property rights is argue over paint color without first designing the car.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Pretty sure this is false. At least a logical falacy. Who's to say that large swaths of the population would still be alive today if it were not for capitalism? Actual killing is so far removed from political/economical ideology it's not even funny. People kill because they can.
The "Contact" book/movie story, reloaded.
Who are you to be able to decide that? What is your evidence? What is your theory? What is your model?
Yes, abstinance works so well. So who gets to conrol it? Surely you didn't think you'd get to?
Yes, it's one big giant conspiracy, we're all stupid, and you're the only one that sees the light.
Or, you know... participate in society, but don't let that little detail derail your cozy perception of black and white.
Nah. $100M would barely pay for a couple of vacations to Spain by Michelle.
Yep, pretty good. If you define 'good' as maximal help for a limited class of human beings at the expense of large swaths of the population and the planet.
Well one should expect that capitalism is good, if not very good for the capitalists. Unfortunately, for those who have to work for the capitalists, a different story emerges.
Capitalism is very much like Darwin's survival of the fittest. Both favor the most successful at the expense of everybody else. There is a reason why in the early 20th century there were a lot of anti-trust laws created. The good of the people required protection from the most successful capitalists. There is also a reason why now, most of those laws are ignored. The good of the corporation is now above the good of the people.
Unfortunately, today, people ignorantly shout capitalism when the reality is fascism and today's "capitalists" are actually fascists.
Medicare is far worse than private insurance. They pay less across the board and refuse to allow many types of treatment. They make the VA look good.
Maybe that is why the VA is in even worse shape than Medicare.
Actually, this is a great misconception. China's one child per couple policy has doomed the nation to non-existence in the next 30 years. A typical chinese extended family is called 421 - four grandparents, 2 parents and one son. Even if China lifted it's once child per couple policy today and started producing only girls instead of sons, by the time they reached sexual maturity, it would be too late to turn the tide around. They simply cannot sustain their population into the future.
Europe would be in the same situation except for the Muslim immigration. Europe will survive because Muslims are producing children, but the European culture will be lost. Likewise, in the US, the Hispanic immigration with their higher birthrate will keep the US going, however, within 50 years, the majority of Americans will be of Hispanic heritage instead of German as it is now.
The problem for the world is not that there is not enough food and resources for 6 billion people. There is adequate food and resources for far more. What the problem in the world truly has is one of distribution where a minority of the world's population consumes the vast majority of the world's resources.
Limiting population growth via birth control, war, or what ever means is not the answer and will only lead to the even quicker decline. But at least those that have, will have more, for a while.
Yes, abstinance works so well. So who gets to conrol it? Surely you didn't think you'd get to?
Ask China how well controlled population works. One child per couple is below the rate to sustain a society or culture. But then, maybe that is why the West convinced China to take that course so many decades ago.
and other high profile rich Dems continously cry about how they don't pay enough in taxes, blah blah blah. Well, here's a suggestion: get together and fund the GBT. Or a few other projects that face the federal axe. Of course this will never happen, at least not until pigs fly in things other than airplanes.
No, the VA is in worse shape because it's run by a lot of government employees. While there are some folks in there who really do their best to provide decent care (and some have managed to pull of miracles), the reason the VA falls down a lot? Because of the '7:30-4:30' mentality. Most of the employees there are just marking time (while getting one hell of a paycheck for doing so), and resent any/all intrusions into their day or their processes (like, you know, patients who need care?) More often than not, the process and attendant bureaucratic attitude is the biggest hindrance.
How do I know? My missus is a disabled veteran. Watching her fight with the pharmacy because they botched an delivery date for the umpteenth time is no fun (we're talking insulin and high-octane pain prescriptions here, not aspirin), and that's just the tip of one very ugly iceberg.
Having seen fully-US-government-run healthcare up close and personal? Let's just say that no matter how good Canada or the UK does it, I know full well that here in the US, we'll just fuck it up, and to the detriment of anyone who will have to suffer under it.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
at garage sale prices.
If you define 'good' as maximal help for a limited class of human beings at the expense of large swaths of the population and the planet.
Actually global poverty has recently been falling rapidly, mostly due to the adoption of capitalism in China.
The poor countries that display the greatest success today in poverty reduction are those that engage the most with the global capitalist economy.
Never mind that without Capitalism, it's hard to say if the networks and equipment that you're using to bitch about Capitalism on the Internet would even exist...
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Do you know that what you posted isn't true?
Do you care?
More people today are living better lives than at any other point in history - and the numbers are rising. Technological developments are a stunning achievement of mankind.
An availability cascade is a self-sustaining chain of events, which may start from media reports of a relatively minor event and lead up to public panic and large-scale government action. On some occasions, a media story about a risk catches the attention of a segment of the public, which becomes aroused and worried. This emotional reaction becomes a story in itself, prompting additional coverage in the media, which in turn produces greater concern and involvement. The cycle is sometimes sped along deliberately by “availability entrepreneurs,” individuals or organizations who work to ensure a continuous flow of worrying news. The danger is increasingly exaggerated as the media compete for attention-grabbing headlines. Scientists and others who try to dampen the increasing fear and revulsion attract little attention, most of it hostile: anyone who claims that the danger is overstated is suspected of association with a “heinous cover-up.” The issue becomes politically important because it is on everyone’s mind, and the response of of the political system is guided by the intensity of public sentiment. The availability cascade has now reset priorities. Other risks, and other ways that resources could be applied for the public good, all have faded into the background.
- psychologist and Nobel laureate Daniel Kahneman, from the book Thinking fast and slow
(Note: I'm sure he didn't think of climate science when he wrote it. My point has to do with your "conspiracy" response - not the topic itself.)
it's in my head
Air Conditioning the Military Costs More Than NASA Budget
http://gizmodo.com/5813257/air-conditioning-our-military-costs-more-than-nasas-entire-budget
That says a lot about this country and where it's headed. It has no problem cooling troops in a war that has no purpose and no end, even when "we are broke!". But funding anything that might be remotely useful? Forget it!
Air Conditioning the Military Costs More Than NASA's entire Budget: http://gizmodo.com/5813257/air-conditioning-our-military-costs-more-than-nasas-entire-budget
That says a lot about this country and where it's headed. It has no problem cooling troops in a war that has no purpose and no end, even when "we are broke!". But funding anything that might be remotely useful? Forget it!
Yeah, the only problem with your theory is that industrialization and life expectancy are very strongly correlated. The miserable part of the planet are almost all subsistence farmers - which is what almost the entire population of the planet was doing just prior to industrialization.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
There is also a reason why now, most of those laws are ignored.
You are right that monopoly is a frequent "natural' result of capitalism, which encourages consolidation - especially once you regulate the market with a concept as powerful as a corporation.
But can you point to an example of where the laws are currently being ignored?
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Having seen fully-US-government-run healthcare up close and personal? Let's just say that no matter how good Canada or the UK does it, I know full well that here in the US, we'll just fuck it up, and to the detriment of anyone who will have to suffer under it.
Yeah, that's why I was so disappointed in "Obamacare". I actually think the mandate has a chance of improving things, but you need to get more people into that system. As it is, the law pushes 1/3 of the uninsured into the troubled/troubling Medicaid system - which I don't really think deserved an expansion. The other problem is that the tax penalty just isn't very high, so people are still going to go without insurance until something bad happens to them - which will of course drive premiums up for all of us.
At least it didn't expand the VA system into private care! :)
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Just like the Space Shuttle, another one bites the dust.
The real reason its being shut down is due to the belief by America's republicans that it has ties with the LGBT. This is a war against gay marriage through and through.
Then once every so often, the system, just like my WIN box, has to be rebooted, and all the old scripts plugging up the system are finally expunged.
The last really good political system reset happened about 225 years ago in France. I think the time is fast approaching for another.
The Dish http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0205873/ in Parkes NSW Australia, has had a 40% reduction in it's budget. They just found ways to work remotely so no one would have to endure the drive to the middle of the sheep paddock in the outback.
I have heard however it's run a bit like a 'sheltered workshop', with special buses for staff and lots of other perks.
The government shouldn't fund telescopes - or ideally even exist (although this transition will inevitably take many decades, and the government will need to sustain itself to manage its gradual decline).
If it provides practical benefits, then a business model can be built around it. If it's just a hobby that some people enjoy - let them pay for it through donations.
In grand total, Uncle Sam only spends $225 / year per-capita on all "scientific / medical research". (Let's forget for a moment that much of this is wasted due to the corrupt and inefficient nature of gov monopoly spending, and that some of it would be funded by for-profit institutions if government money hadn't crowded them out.) Don't you think Americans could handle donating this much (on average - many would donate zilch, a few would donate billions) to their favorite research causes on a voluntary basis?!
Without the "let the government worry about that" mentality and the distractions of the political circus, we would see a cultural evolution where people would be judged by their philanthropic associations. Scientific projects can do many things to give recognition to their sponsors. Being a patron of a telescope project would be seen as cool and civilized, while buying a Porsche would be seen as lame and boring in comparison!
--libman
Having seen fully-US-government-run healthcare up close and personal? Let's just say that no matter how good Canada or the UK does it, I know full well that here in the US, we'll just fuck it up, and to the detriment of anyone who will have to suffer under it.
It's not very good in Canada or the UK, even though you get a pile of Canadians and English spouting how great gov't healthcare is. That is the problem when bureaucracy is introduced to healthcare. Everyone gets crappy care that is free.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.