Slashdot Mirror


The Coming Internet Video Crash

snydeq writes "First, it was data caps on cellular, and now caps on wired broadband — welcome to the end of the rich Internet, writes Galen Gruman. 'People are still getting used to the notion that unlimited data plans are dead and gone for their smartphones. The option wasn't even offered for tablets. Now, we're beginning to see the eradication of the unlimited data plan in our broadband lines, such as cable and DSL connections. It's a dangerous trend that will threaten the budding Internet-based video business — whether from Netflix, Hulu, iTunes, Windows Store, or Google Play — then jeopardize Internet services of all sorts. It's a complex issue, and though the villains are obvious — the telecom carriers and cable providers — the solutions are not. The result will be a metered Internet that discourages use of the services so valuable for work and play.'"

69 of 419 comments (clear)

  1. Utility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It needs to be regulated like a public utility.

    1. Re:Utility by desdinova+216 · · Score: 3, Funny

      .....but....socialism...what about the Free market

      note: the above is meant to be sarcastic.

    2. Re:Utility by Mitreya · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It needs to be regulated like a public utility.

      Or at least decoupled from the monopolized infrastructure so that other providers (that do not own an exclusive and non-negotiable cable hookup to your house) can compete.

    3. Re:Utility by EmagGeek · · Score: 2

      Well, they ARE, sort of.

      When Vz and Comcast were threatened with the prospect of having to scan and filter their networks of P2P traffic and be held responsible for the theft of music and movies, they went to the government screaming "hey, we're a public utility and common carrier, not a content provider! We're not responsible for what goes on our network!" And, the government bought it.

      Now, they'll be talking out the other side of their mouths saying "hey, we're content providers, not common carriers! We shouldn't be forced to carry everyone's media content equally and fairly!" And, the government will buy it.

      So, they'll eat their cake and have it too.

    4. Re:Utility by jamesh · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It needs to be regulated like a public utility.

      You mean like water, where you pay for what you use? Or electricity, where you pay for what you use? Or gas, where you pay for what you use?

      Yes. Exactly like that.

      I don't watch movies over the internet very often, and I don't keep my bandwidth at capacity 24/7 downloading stuff, and I certainly don't want to be subsidising those that do.

      Screw the business models of those "budding internet video businesses". I'm not (indirectly) paying for a service I don't use just to protect a poorly thought out business plan. This isn't health or something important, it's entertainment, and you can pay for it yourself.

    5. Re:Utility by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You mean like water, where you pay for what you use?

      You know what water companies don't do? They don't make you pay $10/mo. for 10 liters of water or $20/mo. for 80 liters of water.

      Oh, and water, electricity, and gas are finite resources. Data is not.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    6. Re:Utility by Kjella · · Score: 2

      It needs to be regulated like a public utility.

      My electricity is a regulated utility, but I still pay by the kWh. That's kilowatt hour, in case the US has some weird non-metric unit. Why should the Internet be any different? I want fast burst speed when I'm downloading 10GB from Steam, but I don't need it 24x7 just like I want my 2000W stove to work when I need it but most of the time I only have a 10W light bulb on. Doing some quick math I could download about 18.5 TB in a month, I think even in my craziest month I was at less than 5% of that. If they had a gigabyte rollover like many Usenet servers have then on average maybe 1-2%. I wouldn't mind faster burst speed, gigabit Internet when I need it would be great even if the cap stayed the same. But without any caps you have a no-limit situation where somebody could decide that transferring 300TB in a month is okay.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    7. Re:Utility by KhabaLox · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You mean like water, where you pay for what you use? Or electricity, where you pay for what you use? Or gas, where you pay for what you use?

      Sure, as long as they price it at the marginal cost to push that bit down the pipe. ;)

      --
      Ceci n'est pas un sig.
    8. Re:Utility by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is exactly right. We went through this in Australia. I remember it quite fondly.

      Back at the turn of the century we had completely unlimited cable for around $80 from what I remember. After a while (and with only 1 single broadband provider in the country) they introduced a 3GB cap. Not a typo. THREE GIGABYTE CAP. We hit that cap on the second day of the month 10 years ago. Eventually they got slapped quite hard from the Australian Competition and Consumer Comission and the cap raised to 10GB.

      Enter ADSL. This same single broadband provider happens to own all the copper lines. So they offered their service with the same crappy caps but they also sold on their network wholesale to other telecom companies who wanted to offer ADSL as well. ... At a price higher than the retail value. Eventually they got slapped quite hard from the ACCC and they dropped their wholesale prices leading to competition and a rise in the caps again.

      Eventually I can't remember who think it may have been the ACCC again required Telstra to offer their exchanges to other companies to house equipment. Several companies jumped on the idea and started installing DSLAMs everywhere. Caps at the end of all this were around 50-250GB depending on plan.

      Now we have a situation here where the introduction of Naked DSL and a ruling which requires Telstra to completely offer it's copper infrastructure to other providers means we no longer have a monopoly. End result is I now have completely unlimited internet.

      Chronology of events of my internet bills:
      2001: $80 unlimited
      2003ish: $80 3GB
      2004ish: $80 10GB
      2006ish: $70 50GB peak + 100GB offpeak on ADSL + $30 phone line rental paid to Telstra.
      2009ish: $70 250GB+250GB peak/off on ADSL+ $30 phone line rental paid to Telstra (DESPITE NOW NOT ACTUALLY USING A PHONE ANYMORE).
      2012: $60 unlimited ADSL and phone line bundle.

    9. Re:Utility by jamesh · · Score: 2

      I'm tired of this argument because it's well, wrong.

      I'm sorry, but it isn't. Want to deliver more data to the home? Invest in better technology. Most of that being a one-time investment, mind you. Want to deliver more water to the home? You had better have a source to get that water from. There'll never be a such thing, for example, as a data drought.

      None of these companies are trying to alleviate unexpected network troubles through billing, they're trying to increase their already-generous profit margin. (Notice their use of tiered plans, instead of the reasonable suggestion you made.) It doesn't make sense with data.

      The infrastructure for comms isn't cheap. The pipes that were installed to deliver water to my house 10 years ago will probably be just fine in another 10 years. The household usage of water has remained pretty much constant in the last 50 years (eg it hasn't increased 100x). The phone lines that were put in to deliver voice and data to my house 10 years ago are showing their age, and will require fibre if I need more capacity. 50 years ago a phoneline needed bandwith equivalent to 64kbits/second of data. 15 years ago that was probably sufficient too for most households. Now that requirement has increased well over 100x in a very short time.

      The infrastructure from comms is expensive and gets old really fast, to the point that it's obsolete by the time a large scale deployment is complete. You just can't dig a trench to lay fibre to every house quickly and cheaply. And then for somewhere like Australia where a large amount of content comes from overseas you have to get it here. Thousands of km of undersea fibre. That isn't cheap either.

      I'm sure the ISP's are making a handsome profit, and that's where regulation comes in, but just saying "unlimited internet for all" is stupid because the people who don't use much at all end up subsidising those who push the capacity of the network.

    10. Re:Utility by jamesh · · Score: 2

      As long as you actually have sunk the one time cost for infrastructure that support consumer use habits, you don't have to keep generating a product to sell to the customer.

      Seriously? It's not a "one time cost". It's an enormous cost and it's ongoing. IT stuff gets old really fast.

    11. Re:Utility by Seumas · · Score: 2

      Water, electricity, and gas are finite resources. Bandwidth is not. Setting up any discussion to surround treating it like a precious resource and public utility is exactly what the providers and regulators want. That's how they try to dishonestly frame EVERY conversation about this. The more you keep in that mindset, the more ready you are to accept their arguments that restrictions and high fees and per-gig-charges are fair. After all, gosh, think of all that precious internet that you are wasting!

    12. Re:Utility by turbidostato · · Score: 2

      "I'm tired of this argument because it's well, wrong."

      Or it isn't.

      "For any given time period/line-capacity combination, there is a finite amount of data that can be pushed through that line"

      So, if any, the limited resource is *bandwith* not volume. Why, then, they want to limit data volume and not bandwith?

      Might it be because by putting a price to something they got essentially for free they can get an insane benefit?

    13. Re:Utility by quantumphaze · · Score: 2

      Data as a resource may be limitless (well as big as all active disks worldwide) but delivery is a limited resource.

      Lets use the Electrical analogy:
      Hypothetical scientists discover a hypothetical magical infinite supply of uranium giving humanity an unlimited source of energy (Joules). We are limited in our use of it by the rate we can convert it to electricity (power in Watts). The amount of nuclear plants, their peak output (GW) and how much power we can send through power lines before they melt. Even the speed at which we can dig out the infinite uranium.

      But each town has a substation that can only put through so much current through its transformers before melting. These can only deliver, say, one megawatt and will need to be upgraded.

      Getting back to telecommunications, the biggest limiting factor is usually the copper lines struggling to provide a couple Mb/s. Lets assume we are in 2020 Australia and the NBN wasn't killed off. All houses in a town have access to 12/1 to 100/40 Mb/s plans taking away the "power lines melting" problem.
      At the point of interconnect we have the contention ratio issue. How much bandwidth each ISP buys for all their customers from NBN and from the transpacific links to the States where all the Facetwitubes are hosted effects the total amount of terabytes per month they can supply for everyone.

      It is impossible to have everyone buy an unlimited 100/40 plan and have everyone use it to the max 24/7. Even just a 12/1 plan can give a theoretical maximum of 30TB per month. Delivering 100/40 to people relies on the fact that no one uses it fully 24/7 and instead in bursts, averaging out across the town. The easiest way to ensure that it's used fairly, and that regular people who's biggest demand is Youtube can still get 100/40 plans without subsidising some tool torrenting 24/7 is to pay for what you use. That way light users can pay $30/mo for 50GB and heavy torrenters can pay $99 for 1TB. From the ISP's point of view there is no difference between the load a 12/1 customer downloading 1TB and a 100/40 customer.

      Quite honestly, if you struggle to keep under a terabyte quota maybe you should pace yourself a bit, watch less videos, go outside, actually watch all those videos you accumulated before you get more.

      TLDR: Bytes are unlimited. Bytes per second are not.

    14. Re:Utility by YttriumOxide · · Score: 2

      Or, do you also object to visiting all you can eat buffets just in case your modest consumption is "subsidising" the fat bastard who went back for a 2nd plate?

      Personally... yeh.

      I AM a fat bastard, but I know for a fact that I can get a better meal cheaper by not choosing the "all you can eat buffet" option. Last time I looked at one of those, I think I would've needed to eat 3 or 4 plates worth of the most expensive thing in the buffet in order to even MATCH the price of eating the same food at a regular cafe.

      --
      My book about LSD and Self-Discovery
      Also on facebook as: DroppingAcidDaleBewan
    15. Re:Utility by nurb432 · · Score: 2

      You know what water companies don't do? They don't make you pay $10/mo. for 10 liters of water or $20/mo. for 80 liters of water.

      No, but there no unlimited water plans for a flat fee which is really what this discussion is about.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  2. Free market! by Mitreya · · Score: 5, Funny
    No worries, I am sure the highly competitive and heterogeneous market will take care of it

    As providers try to cap their data plans, new market players will emerge and take over by offering unlimited plans that consumers want

    Right?

    1. Re:Free market! by raydobbs · · Score: 5, Informative

      ...or the large players will gather and plot to harm the consumer. Adam Smith pretty much makes the case that you -need- to regulate some industries, since they will not do it themselves. The consumer cannot 'vote with their wallet' when all the players offer the same vile offerings, racing each other to the bottom.

    2. Re:Free market! by ThatsMyNick · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you have already given the cable companies exclusivity, how do you expect the magical free market to work. If we did not give the cable companies exclusive rights, we would already have free and healthy market. And yes it would have taken care of it.

    3. Re:Free market! by jimbouse · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I run a small WISP (wireless ISP, tower based) that does exactly this. We cost more than the incumbents but offer unlimited downloads and you get what your pay for.

      People are happy to pay money for a service that performs as advertised.

      My tiers bill out at $36/Mbit. It sounds steep compared to a 10Mbit for $80/mo from the local incumbent. Except that the incumbent can't actually provide that speed, nor will they let you use your connection to the fullest.

    4. Re:Free market! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This.

      Once everybody was captured (and by a couple of years ago pretty much everybody was), all they had to do was start turning the screws.

      People, I've been telling you for years, here on Slashdot, to write the FCC and your congresscritters, and fight the mergers and acquisitions and takeovers as anticompetitive. ESPECIALLY when carriers and content providers were proposing deals together. But few of you did.

      Now you get to live with the results.

      I hate to say "I told you so", but I did. The reason I hate it is because I have to live with it too.

    5. Re:Free market! by _xeno_ · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Except in this case, regulation is the problem. This problem didn't exist back in the dial-up days. Some 15 years ago, there was a choice of like twenty different ISPs in the area, including some that were "free" and ad-supported.

      Now, there's a choice between two: Verizon and Comcast.

      Why just those two? Why does no one else compete with them? Because they're legally forbidden from competing with them.

      Of course, it no longer matters. Because Comcast and Verizon are the big players, even if the regulation preventing anyone else for competing was lifted, no one else could possibly compete anyway. If they tried, Comcast and Verizon would just lower prices to undercut the newcomer. (Hell, Comcast and Verizon already try and undercut each other in a similar way by offering "introductory pricing." First year, you can get like 75% off your bill! Then the price skyrockets...)

      So - yes, now the only solution is regulation. But that's not a failing of the free market, that's a failing of the original regulation that created the current oligopoly in the first place!

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
    6. Re:Free market! by jimbouse · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Upstream data is plentiful. Last mile data delivery is the problem.

      The routers and fibers carrying the internet backbone are upgradable and there are plenty of routes.

      The problem comes when a incumbent drops 200 households on a single gigabit line. You can do the math. Although everyone is not using their full connection, at some point there is a limit.

      I agree I am a middle man. The rates I pay are in the $50/Mbit completely unlimited. When I started a year ago, the rates were closer to $90/Mbit. This shows the costs for bandwidth are dropping (if you can afford to buy enough).

    7. Re:Free market! by jimbouse · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are a couple of ways to find a WISP. Most reputable WISPs are members of WISPA. WISPA search

      The other way is to ask on DSLReports WISP section. DSL Reports WISP

      Good Luck.

    8. Re:Free market! by Seumas · · Score: 2

      The government gave out many billions in tax payer money to subsidize infrastructure expansion. The industry chose to just pocket the money.

  3. Wrong by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Commentators (including myself) have been predicting the end of the internet (as we know it) for almost two decades now -- but I (and all the others) have been proven wrong.

    Yes, the demand for bandwidth is growing at a huge rate -- but so is the provisioning of that bandwidth.

    If you live in a country like New Zealand (where I live) you get used to living with capped data plans -- they're just a part of life and, to be totally honest, it's never really been an issue for me -- despite the fact that I do a *lot* of online video, as you can tell by my Youtube Channel.

    Sure, the arrival of IPTV will change the picture a little, as TV programming starts to make up an increasingly high percentage of the total traffic -- but hey, nothing's free and many people pay for cable so why not pay for IPTV in a way that includes the bandwidth you use as well? (as will soon be the case).

    Uncapped internet? Never had it, never really needed it. I have 120GB a month and that's all I need -- perhaps because I don't like the kind of dross I find on TV anyway. Quality of content is *far* more important than the quality of the image.

  4. This has been brewing for years. by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It started with the old hourly charges from the old services like CompuServe and AOL, then "because of consumer demand" they went to Unlimited.

    Notice this article talks about the "entertainment" side. Look at the Cloud side.

    1. "Everyone use your software from the Cloud! It's nice and fluffy!"
    2. "Let's cap bandwidth so that when you pull your data every 7 seconds you burn 4 megs, and then you will hit your cap and we can charge the fees."

    If I was better at graphic design, I've wanted to make "chart news" with trends like these pointing in opposite directions in 2010 that becomes 2012's news when they collide.

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
    1. Re:This has been brewing for years. by Burning1 · · Score: 2

      AOL only went unlimited when the internet became more important than AOL's content, and an assload of competitive dial-up providers sprung up all offering unlimited access.

  5. Unfortunately, the solution is obvious by dgatwood · · Score: 2

    There are two solutions, both of which are obvious. The first, which is the solution the telecoms want to choose, is to charge content providers for providing content at reasonable speeds. This, of course, leads to a two-tier Internet, i.e. the big media conglomerates and the independent ghetto. The second is to pass laws that ban download limits for all wired service providers.

    At this point, those are the only two options. Well, no, there's a third. We could build up a government-run infrastructure. But I'm not holding my breath.

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    1. Re:Unfortunately, the solution is obvious by Twinbee · · Score: 2

      There is a fourth solution. Google Fibre spreads across more of America (the rest of Kansas is next on the cards), and either takes over completely, or forces the others to play catch up. Kinda like what Gmail did for email.

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    2. Re:Unfortunately, the solution is obvious by Dahamma · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, no, there are a LOT more than 2-3 solutions...

      The major reason for usage capping is not the backbone costs of all of that bandwidth, it's oversubscription; the cable companies can't provide unlimited guaranteed bandwidth to everyone all the time.

      However, they do have an absolutely MASSIVE pipe coming into your home, even if it is shared - the problem is they are using almost all of it to send you 799 TV channels you aren't watching while you are tuned to the 800th. If they just dumped the traditional broadcast system to use ALL of the available frequencies for IP-based video, the whole oversubscription problem would go away.

      Of course, then they might actually start having a backbone issue, but that's a nice scalable problem they have been continuously solving for decades...

  6. Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A market controlled by cartels or monopolies is not free, and is every bit as bad as a market controlled by a government.

    I know you were being sarcastic. I am just adding to the thought.

    1. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You can't have a monopoly or a monopolistic cartel without government intervention. "Free market monopolies" are a misnomer, as the company that has provided such a high quality, low cost product that no-one can compete with them must continue to provide such quality, or risk new competition arising.

      However, the OP is right that it should be like a utility, but utilities need not be regulated, nor be given exclusive rights to some geographical area (which is what you would get with the imposition of a utility model). No, the PROVIDERS need to realize that they are utilities, and price data according to market prices, close to the marginal cost, which is very VERY low. It should be like electricity--no-one really cares about using electricity, nor is there any demand for "unlimited monthly" electricity, but by paying for it by the amount of usage, you limit its consumption while giving proper incentive for construction of additional capacity.

    2. Re:Yes by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem here is that the telecommunications tends towards natural monopolies. The costs of rolling out large area copper or fiber means the market will almost inevitably favor those who get in early. The only reason that cable ever was competitive was because it started out as an entirely different service than telephone, and it was only very late in the game that both cable and telco lines started being used for large scale data transmission.

      Then you go to wireless. Well, there's only so much useful spectrum out there, and unlicensed bands are far too filled with clutter to be of much use, so again, you're left the companies who get on in early dominating the market, with the costs of creating a competing network, even where you have spectrum, or at least there are protocols in place to share the spectrum, new players are not likely to come along very often. For even most moderate sized cities, there are only a handful of meaningful broadband competitors.

      So the only real option you're left with is some sort of government-imposed regulations.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Yes by Spy+Handler · · Score: 5, Insightful

      exactly right.

      You either go the socialism route and the gov't mandates a reasonable service for a reasonable price, for example 20mbps/2mbps unlimited internet for $49 a month... the public wins.

      OR you go full capitalism and deregulate *everything* while protecting against monopoly/cartels (such as the Verizon/AT&T duopoly) with Sherman Antitrust-esque laws. Result: the public wins even more.

      Right now in the US we have the worst of both worlds, with a gov't protected cartel without the gov't mandated price controls. Crony capitalism at its best.

    4. Re:Yes by calzones · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Collusion, oligopolies, and high barriers to entry for certain enterprises (once established by first-to-market types, or when invested in by rich types) mean a free market does indeed lead to monopolistic abuses.

      Of course, all you have to do is look at human history and the natural world to see that this is the case. Mafias, gangs, cliques, pecking order, castes, nobility, feudalism, etc, etc... It's the nature of all social organizations that some will become strong and leverage that strength against others and some who ultimately become utterly dominant.

      Establishing rules and enforcing them, (i.e., a regulated society that values more opportunity for more members of society and a more level playing field) is the ONLY way to circumvent this tendency.

      --
      Asking people to think is like asking them to buy you a new car
    5. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      as the company that has provided such a high quality, low cost product that no-one can compete with them must continue to provide such quality, or risk new competition arising.

      That is outright false.

      There are a host of perfectly legal things that established monopolies can do that prevent competition from ever arising, and that require no intervention from the government. Here are just a few:

      1) Buy up any emerging businesses, and just shut them down.

      2) Lock up the suppliers of any emerging businesses into exclusive contracts, so the new businesses can't get their supplies (or at least not affordably) and hence can't cash-flow their business long enough to get a foothold.

      3) Lock up the potential customers into long-term contracts, so the new businesses starve before they can get a foothold.

      4) Regionally price your offerings at a loss wherever competition starts to spring up, and starve them out of existence, then re-adjust your prices once they are gone.

      5) Hire all the talent out from under the owners of the new businesses, and let them fall apart.

      6) Use your wealth to out-market the new businesses (as *anyone* can tell you, good marketing beats good product any day of the week).

      7) Sue the new businesses with compeltely frivolous charges. It doesn't even matter if you lose, you drown them in legal expenses.

      There are also some dirty-pool options, like hiring goons to burn down their places of business. But why bother with those...any combination of the above will prevent any serious competition from ever arising, and you will be free to offer crappy service at high prices.

      And, of course, any large and wealthy business *will* have influence over government (that is just how money works). They will get special tax breaks and what-not because of the jobs they create (and the government wants those jobs to be local, obviously). These breaks will not be fairly distributed to potential competitors. Also, laws can be passed that establish quality or regulatory requirements that work as severe barriers-to-entry to any businesses not already established.

      There is, in fact, so much more than this...but you have to suspend your blind faith in complete hands-off governence to think the possibilities up.

    6. Re:Yes by calzones · · Score: 4, Informative

      "high barriers to entry are typically not an issue of acquiring sufficient capital "

      Are you serious? You're telling me that politicians are the reason you can't just start an airplane manufacturing business overnight? Or launch satellites into orbit to provide global communications? Or an offshore oil drilling company... a mining company... a global logistics provider....?

      High barriers to entry are there because the resources necessary to set up shop are hugely expensive and often of a massive scale. High barriers to entry become even higher when there are already established players in a space because you will be utterly incapable of competing against them unless you can match their resources. Nothing at all to do with political influence.

      And in the natural world, the biggest, strongest wolf gets to stay that way by eating first (and the most) while the runt of the litter eats last.

      --
      Asking people to think is like asking them to buy you a new car
    7. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem here is that the telecommunications tends towards natural monopolies. The costs of rolling out large area copper or fiber means the market will almost inevitably favor those who get in early.

      That's like claiming parcel delivery tends towards natural monopolies because laying new asphalt is cost-prohibitive.

      If you forcibly separate the infrastructure providers (road construction) from the service providers (UPS, Fedex, etc), then you have beneficial competition with very little downside.

    8. Re:Yes by rickb928 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The flaw in this is that 'early' means different things.

      The Bells got into telephony early, and dominated. The Breakup tried to remedy the monopoly, and did so, though the aftermath was a new set of problems.

      When cell service came to be, the government decided the Bells and Baby Bells would noobe allowed to dominate this market, so they created 'A' service and 'B' service, 'wireline' and 'non-wireline'. Does anyone remember which was which? And they oermitted CDMA and TDMA to slug it out. We now know TDMA as GSM, its successor.

      Data service brought an entirely new set of options, and the telecoms were the logical leaders, going from slow speed leased lines to faster, and faster. Proprietary protocols, DDS2, T1/E1, and all the T3 and OC- speeds. SONET, MLPS, etc. The telecoms fought and lost the battle to keep their copper and fiber to themselves. But the CLECs failed to account for other players.

      Cable companies jumped in and provided data service on their networks. Power companies toyed with it, but failed to deliver working solutions.

      Today, Internet service is pretty much split into three providers in most areas, cable, telecom (DSL) and wireless. In the rural areas, the providers are either limited by range or nonexistent, but where service is avaialble, mostly it has 2-3 players. Please, before you flame me with the exceptions, it's generally true that cable reaches a little further than DSL, and wireless is generally limited to the cell footprint. Satellite is a poor quality solution, and is not germane to my examples. FIOS and other telecom or higher speed non-copper services only add competitors, though not many.

      To turm Internet service into a utility in most of the US is to ignore the reality that there is a competitive market, and the utility model doesn;t seem to fit well, at least not to me.

      BUT...

      This is an issue of The Commons. And net neutrality is a disguised Commons issue.

      If the Internet providers are still also providing other services, they have potential incentives to limit one in favor of the other. Case in point, cable services.

      Video over the Internet is insanely popular for several reasons, but two come to mind as direct threats to cable providers: On-demand video, and non-real-time video.

      On-demand video, like Netflix, competes directly with cable company movie channels, both the HBO model and on-demand/rental channels. this is revenue lost to them, and Netflix is literally eating their lunch.

      Non-real-time video I think of as the Hulu model. While cable companies have DVR solutions, again Hulu takes the bread from their mouths. Direct competition.

      BitTorrent is just another delivery method, with the added unpleasantness of rampant copyright violation, which then gets the cable companies in hot water with their bread and butter video providers.

      Add in another factor - video is a bandwidth hog, at least more than even Flash gaming. Probably even PC gaming. This increases their network costs, and logically so, at every part of their network.

      You could make the case that Internet service is a significant threat to the cable companies, yet they are stuck with being their own worst enemies, for now. too much money to turn down, at least at the moment.

      Notice I haven't even mentioned the VOIP services they got into to scrape mor erevenue from their networks, and the threat of Skype etc, and the challenge of various videoconferencing solutions such as Facetime?

      So video, to the cable provider, is a necessary and detested evil. The solutions? Traffic shaping, packet inspection, etc.serve to make the competitive services less useful, and discourage them. Bandwidth caps can nail Netflix and Hulu. Add speed caps, and the cable cos. can deal their competitors a blow. But users then might flee. To where? Well, DSL providers are not much better behaved. Any other provider with a relationship to broadcast media is also of divided loyaltes.

      DSL providers are limited in

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    9. Re:Yes by MagusSlurpy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, he's telling you that politicians (i.e. the FCC in the US) are the reason even a company like Apple can't just take their cash and launch their own telecom and have any chance of competing alongside the Big Three - because they control the spectrum allocations. Doesn't matter how many iPhone 6s you sell when you only get enough spectrum to support half a million of them.

      Same with a cable company. Or a railroad. Or a power company. There are plenty of industries where the government stifles competition.

      --
      My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
    10. Re:Yes by Nadaka · · Score: 4, Informative

      And without the FCC you wouldn't have any spectrum, because the guy with the biggest amp will drown out your puny little signal on whatever spectrum you try to sneak into around the behemoths.

    11. Re:Yes by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 2

      How did the government facilitate Microsoft's monopoly? I don't recall them mandating that I use Windows.

    12. Re:Yes by calzones · · Score: 5, Insightful

      My original comment was a reply to this assertion:

      You can't have a monopoly or a monopolistic cartel without government intervention. 'Free market monopolies' are a misnomer, as the company that has provided such a high quality, low cost product that no-one can compete with them must continue to provide such quality, or risk new competition arising.

      That is not narrowly focused on the question of dolling out a limited resource. It is a general statement asserting as factual that monopolies are impossible sans a meddling government. That's a patently false assertion. That's the point of my counterargument.

      Now the more on-topic nuance about my response, which I didn't give voice to, is that telecoms (A) have astronomically high barriers to entry because they require massive infrastructure that relies on land settled upon by other humans (whole cities, towns, and private residencies), and (B) any such massive infrastructure requires protection from other who would seek to reclaim the land for some other reason (save the spotted owl), or potential competitors.

      Hence, even without a government, the barriers to entry are astronomical. If you wanted to run a telecom in a veritable unregulated libertarian wild west, you'd have to have a whole crew dedicated to enforcing that no one messed with your property; you'd have to make so a ridiculous number of deals with land owners costing a ridiculous amount of money. And once established, you could easily bully anyone else seeking to do the same... not that anyone else could really pull it off unless they were already rich on their own.

      In the meantime, all the citizens of the land would be subjected to infrastructure wars between barons seeking to provide telecom service and the constant uprooting of land, cables strewn about the skies, and probably fractured service and abandoned equipment. Hence, society chooses to regulate such an industry. Two separate issues... yet regulation can help abate both.

      I'm not saying government isn't corrupt. I'm not saying competition doesn't drive down costs. I'm not saying government will necessarily solve the problem. I'm just saying that to assert that the monopolies would not exist otherwise is absurd, delusional even, especially in the context of TFA. Finally, I am saying that a government COULD solve the problem.

      --
      Asking people to think is like asking them to buy you a new car
    13. Re:Yes by Doctor_Jest · · Score: 3

      What's really funny is that all those things occur now with our "socialist governance" here in the United States. So you're basically pointing out that you don't understand what free means. Free doesn't mean unchecked. Free means unmanipulated. The government acts as facilitator for established companies in the market because those companies know that they can buy legislation favoring their established market at the expense of the rest of the emerging market (you see this every day with Cable companies).

      Furthermore, a non-committed arbiter that can handle disputes in the market with no personal gain (something the government cannot do now) prevents most of your items from occurring. How? When the government has no stake in who wins... things work as they should. We are far from that. People think that when someone says "free market" that they're promoting robber barons and evil to run amok. It is another in a long line of misunderstood ideas about free markets. It's easy to think the government can do something when they pretend to do so when it's election time. The trouble is, the government we want to referee the free market doesn't exist... so by the very nature of our current crony-capitalistic state we cannot achieve anything close to a free market, even if we could eliminate some of the corruption between corporations and the government. We can't because we think the government is doing "the right thing" and all those "evil free marketeers" are just trying to squash the middle class or some other nonsense.

      When the government can't be purchased by corporations and legislation can't be railroaded through... we can start to have a free market. That's a pipe-dream I fear, however. Because quite frankly. too many people think like you do and shut off logic. If we got a Constitutionally limited government that we're supposed to have, money couldn't be used to corrupt the free market because the government COULDN'T manipulate things. It's pretty simple, really... but most people are still hung up on the "evil free marketeers" to get past the nonsense and towards the real facts.

      --
      It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
    14. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Without Government interference you'll likely have problems with any type of infrastructure. The right of way laws afforded to utilities for example and the only two other options you have are a free for all (everyone runs everything everywhere) or nobody can run anything anywhere because I own the land you'll need to cross and I'm simply not going to allow you to give my neighbours electricity.

      Utlitly infrastructure shouldn't have the pretence of competition or being privately owned(because unless they allow anyone to dig up the roads, it's never going to be anything but a select number of awarded companies) . It should be ran as some sort of non-profit organisation (preferably with rules relating to conduct in salaries) and their job should be nothing but to provide a state of the art infrastructure at as little as possible cost. Let the resellers foster the competition, otherwise you'll be stuck in the forever cycle of getting shit services from companies that stick their hands out to Government everytime they need to invest anyway.

    15. Re:Yes by jthill · · Score: 3, Informative

      You can't have a monopoly or a monopolistic cartel without government intervention.

      Fucking horse shit. The Sherman act was written _precisely_ because it's a la-la-la child's fantasy. You want to see what happens without government intervention? You look at the history of what that act stopped. You want to say oh, it wouldn't happen today? You're going to try to float that _here_, on _slashdot_ ?!!!?!? There simply aren't words. That fantasy is literally inexpressibly stupid.

      --
      As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
    16. Re:Yes by calzones · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is quite true. I've certainly believed the pros would outweigh the cons if we nationalized the telecom infrastructure and allowed any old company to come along and attempt to compete as a service provider on that infrastructure. Esp. the "last mile" could do to be excised from the cable companies.

      However, the screams that would arise when the telecoms lose ownership of something into which they invested billions of dollars would be deafening.

      While we're at it: no company selling connectivity should be allowed to sell content. Not even affiliated with a company that does. It's an inherent conflict of interest.

      --
      Asking people to think is like asking them to buy you a new car
    17. Re:Yes by TubeSteak · · Score: 2

      High barriers to entry are there because the resources necessary to set up shop are hugely expensive and often of a massive scale. High barriers to entry become even higher when there are already established players in a space because you will be utterly incapable of competing against them unless you can match their resources. Nothing at all to do with political influence.

      It helps that corporations get to influence the rules which keep out start ups.
      In some industries, businesses like expensive regulations, since they add an extra barrier to entry.

      The GP has a bit of a point about having the right political friends.
      A friend of a friend shared with me the tale of a product they had designed for the rail industry.
      It replaced a piece of hardware (that required regular maintinence) with a wireless box that only needed power.
      The stumbling block was, after passing all the tests and getting all the certifications, they couldn't get a waiver of liability,
      meaning this small company would have to get insurance coverage on the unlikely chance that their product caused an accident.
      Why? Because they didn't have the right contacts to push the waiver through, not that their product had any problems.

      And in the natural world, the biggest, strongest wolf gets to stay that way by eating first (and the most) while the runt of the litter eats last.

      In the natural world, the alpha male dies younger than healthy betas because of the stress of maintaining his dominant position.
      In the corporate world, the alpha essentially lives forever unless brought down by scandal, hubris, unforced errors, or uncounterable shifts in society.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    18. Re:Yes by tmosley · · Score: 5, Funny

      Because it doesn't operate in its own interest, it operates in the interest of others.

      WAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

    19. Re:Yes by Genda · · Score: 2

      In American history, this would be a fallacy. There have been any number of ways a large powerful player could wipe out competition. Sell a product below cost until the competition went out of business this knows as "Wrapping a buck around it and giving it away." Large companies in American history have resorted to hired thugs to beat and kill striking workers, denial of service to customers unwilling to be bent and then broken by railroads. While its true that governments were involved, there is nothing stopping the wealthy and powerful from flexing such economic muscle in a free market. Save the law of the land... and would you separate state and commerce?

      The usage of electricity is a poor example because generator capacity is set by peak need. If you could "average out the need" over a given period of time consistently, we could dramatically reduce the need for extra generators.

    20. Re:Yes by blackraven14250 · · Score: 2

      Are you really holding up Somalia as a shining example of free market capitalism working correctly?

    21. Re:Yes by tmosley · · Score: 2

      Stop assuming the question. The government doesn't have to prevent the abuses because they DON'T HAPPEN. Read this article on JD Rockefeller and realize that your whole worldview is both totally wrong and more destructive than a hoard of Mongolian horsemen with titanium bones, laser eyes, and nuclear warhead tipped penises: http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/john-d-rockefeller-and-the-oil-industry/

    22. Re:Yes by Beer_Smurf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, being in aviation, I am telling you that the reason I can't start an airplane manufacturing business is very much the government. Government certification costs are usually much higher than the actual development of the plane itself.

    23. Re:Yes by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Somalia has the most advanced wireless infrastructure in sub saharan Africa...

      It's also one of the best places in the world to get kidnapped, hijacked, pirated, or just shot (or beheaded) for no particular reason.

      I'm sorry---you were saying...?

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    24. Re:Yes by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

      Dude you DO realize you are simply arguing the exact same thing the communists did? 'Oh its not the system, its the people IN the system!" well no shit, if you could get everybody to hug and be friendly you wouldn't need any regulations now would ya?

      What amazes me is how few of you "free market is God" types will accept the fact that we already tried that and it was called "the age of the robber barons" by historians. look it up, they didn't regulate shit, hell you could sell rat poison to babies, no rules at all. No food regulations, business regulations, environmental regulations, it was total free for all...so what happened? Those at the top simply bought their own army and police and did whatever the fuck they wanted. You had sweatshops and child labor and monopolies up the ass..NOT because the government did shit, just because those at the top made these nice little cartels called "trusts" that let them control everything. Railroads, cattle, oil, shipping, all owned by trusts or big cheeses like Morgan and Rockefeller and those that tried to start anything to compete? if they were lucky they were crushed like a bug, if not a Pinkerton would just burn their place to the ground.

      So sorry Doc, your libertarian pipe dream is just that, it depends on those with wealth NOT being douchebags, yet we've seen time and time again capitalism rewards the sociopaths among us.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  7. This has been a long time coming by EmagGeek · · Score: 3, Interesting

    With so many people ditching Cable and Sat TV plans in favor of an Internet-Only household, and with the Cable Companies being the majority providers of Internet Access, of course we had to see this coming.

    Vz and Comcast aren't going to sit idly by while their subscribers ditch the media services and keep only the delivery service, and spend their money at Netflix and other media services.

    The question is, will it be considered anti-competitive for them to allow unlimited delivery of their own media over the pipe, while charging extra for media from their competitors? I certainly think that's anti-competitive, and where net neutrality needs to come into play. But, I doubt we'll see it happen, at least in the US.

  8. Maybe in the USA, not elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm in Australia. Internet access was once metered by the hour ($10 per hour dial-up) then prices fell to under a dollar an hour. Then I got ADSL in the very early 2000s with a whole gigabyte over a month, always-on. Then it increased to three per month. Then ten, fifteen, forty, then a jump to 200, and in 2012 I'm 'limited' to over a terabyte a month.

    A fucking terabyte.

    I can't stream that much video (even in good quality) and actually watch it in a month without quitting my job and family time and attaching myself to the couch with cheese & bacon balls and becoming an obese live-in hermit.

    Oh, and the cost for those plans is a third it was when I was on 1GB quotas.

    Yes, it came from an awful over-priced start, but the goods for cost is growing and keeps growing here.

  9. A lesson to Americans by Hentes · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Free market never really works well with critical infrastructure.

    1. Re:A lesson to Americans by Issarlk · · Score: 2

      It's my understanding that there's no free market in the US for internet acces. The big players have local monopolies, and are all too happy with that situation to compete with each others.

  10. At the risk of pointing out the obvious... by Jeremi · · Score: 2

    There was never any such thing as "an unlimited data plan".

    There were plans that were misleadingly labelled as "unlimited", but what they really were, was plans where the ISP simply let people use up bandwidth in a first-come-first-served fashion. Whenever the demand reached or surpassed the infrastructures capacity, the de-facto limits of the hardware kicked in, regardless of what the sales droids had promised in the brochure.

    For a company to offer a genuine "unlimited plan", the company would have to build up enough capacity to allow 100% of their unlimited-plan customers to use 100% of the bandwidth capacity of the wire running to their house, 24/7/365. The cost of such an infrastructure would be significantly larger than most people would be willing to pay for, especially since most people don't use or need anywhere near that much capacity.

    So my feeling is that the demise of "unlimited plans" in the marketing is a good thing -- at least we're no longer trying to fool each other into believing bandwidth is infinite (as opposed to finite but cheap).

    --


    I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
  11. Re:Come to New Zealand! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I pay 40 € per month for a 16 Mbit/s dl and 1 Mb/s ul uncapped internet access on adsl2+. And still find it a bit pricey.
    I'm in the heart of Europe.

  12. Re:Yes or reply to someone who ignored Adam Smith by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You can't have a monopoly or a monopolistic cartel without government intervention. "Free market monopolies" are a misnomer, as the company that has provided such a high quality, low cost product that no-one can compete with them must continue to provide such quality, or risk new competition arising.

    I see you failed to read all seven books of Adam Smith on what capitalism is, and are a servant of the Mercantilists that opposed Capitalism.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  13. not if you don't live in a monopoly by slashmydots · · Score: 2

    Nobody would have the balls to do that in my 100,000 person city because we have 4 ISPs that I know about, more likely 10. As far as physical lines, there's 1 coax and 1 telephone line owner so that's at least 2 truly separate ISPs. As soon as AT&T institutes a cap, everyone switches to Time Warner and vice versa. But if it was just AT&T, they're capping you.

  14. Re:Yes or reply to someone who ignored Adam Smith by DF5JT · · Score: 4, Informative

    Austria has unlimited data plans.

    I have a SIM card from drei.at that you can use without a contract and recharge on a monthly basis. It comes at 15 EUR a month and gives you high speed HSDPA+ without a cap. Also, my regular internet comes wireless these days: I have an LTE contract at 49 EUR a month that gives me unlimited 100MBit down and 10MBit up. I live in central Vienna and I actually get the advertised speeds.

    There you go Sweden, plus we have better weather and better food (and we don't extradite ;-))

  15. Re:Yes or reply to someone who ignored Adam Smith by vectorious · · Score: 2

    UK has them - Three has mobile and several suppliers, notably Sky has unlimited landline

  16. Re:Yes or reply to someone who ignored Adam Smith by 21mhz · · Score: 3, Informative

    Finland — I didn't even see "limited" data plans last month when I shopped for a plan, it was all about how much bandwidth you can use.

    --
    My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
  17. Re:Yes or reply to someone who ignored Adam Smith by war4peace · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Romania.
    It does have and will probably always have unlimited data plans. For mobile devices there are speed caps once you go over a certain threshold, but that's it. The difference between subscriptions is basically the threshold size (6 GB, 20 GB, 100 GB, etc).
    For regular broadband (CAT5, fiber optics and so on) there's no threshold and probably there won't be any, because ISPs here are in direct competition. There's no location I know of in Bucharest where you can't choose between at least 3 different ISPs. There are offers for new subscriptions, e.g. 6 months for 50% price or 3 free months, etc.
    RDS (my ISP) offered me a free as in beer 3G dongle which allows unlimited traffic with no monthly threshold. I have downloaded a few ISOs through 3G when their regular line was down a few weeks ago at about 4 Mb/s sustained throughput.

    --
    ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
  18. Re:Yes or reply to someone who ignored Adam Smith by El+Rey · · Score: 2

    "capitalists left to their own devices would rather collude than compete" -- Adam Smith